The Democratic Leadership simply doesn't like it's own Base very much.

[tom_paine]

They finally hammered it into my thick skull, although in truth, this has really been going on pretty much steadily for seven years, I refused to see it. Denial, it can happen to anyone.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1774759

It finally occurred to me to Connect Those Old Dots:

1) Thanks to the realities of Modern Politics, virtually ALL of our Congress and Senate, no matter what their Party, belong to the top 0.1% of the nation, they ALL belong to the top 1%, I would guess. There is no "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" today, and even if it NEVER was like that, certainly there seems to be some much deeper disconnect of the rulers to the people in Imperial Amerika (2001-?) as opposed to the Old American Republic beyond simple money.

Maybe it's that dollars for TV ads are now valued as more effective than dollars spent on phone-bankers and precinct-walkers. Whatever it is, the reasons no longer matters, all that does is the reality of the situation.

2) Because of this disconnect, either economic, spiritually or because national Politicians no longer really need people to "win", just commercials (yes, I know this is hyperbolic, but we are trending quite steeply in that dircetion, relatively-speaking, no?), the Bushie False Reality Bubble woven by their Mighty Wurlitzer, the Democratic Leadership now sees it's Base in nearly the same terms as the Bushies see the Progressive Left.

Does this or does this not explain a lot if one notices that quite often, Pelosi or Reid or whoever from the DLC will speak of the Progressive Left (especially in odd, non-election years) in almost as disparaging terms as the Republics...occasionally straying into O'Reilly territory in their condemnations?

I believe it does.

3) So, Faux "News" and the Legion of Vile Punditry (that's pretty much ALL of them) has convinced the Dems that their Base is the Bad News Bears, and for their political sake, they'd better not start acting like Walter Mattheau..

As always, when the Bushies set a trap, the Democratic Leadership is just so obliging by walking into the Right Uppercut, so to speak, so the Democrats run from spine, principle, but mostly from their own, nose-picking, undersized, dirty, smelly, hippie Base. :sarcasm:

But run they do, into the lowest approval rating in history. Why? Because 74% of Americans have 0% representation. The Bushies have conned the Democratic Leadership, itself perhaps the weakest and most unprincipled in the entire history of The Democratic Party (which is, I am sure, only a coincidence) into thinking a minimum of 65% of Americans (Bush's disapproval rating) and a maximum of 74% of Americans (people who think the nation is on the wrong track) are the Bad News Bears.

This itself is the offshoot of what John Edwards correctly calls "The Two Americas".

Now, DUers, Liberals, Gays and the Progressive Left in general are no more the Bad News Bears in Amerika 2007, than the Liberals, Gays, and Jews were the Bad News Bears in 1937, the last time this Rebranding Propaganda was tried in quite this way.

It's the same load of bullshit, essentially. Written a little less rudely than in 1937 but the same stuff said against VERY OVERLAPPING groups of people.

Another corollary to this revelation: The Bushevik Party-Loyal Sub-Media and Lie Laundry is as much for the Democratic Leadership as it is for the mouth-breathing Freepers and other Right-Wing Authoritarian Followers.

And we have now seen yet another fruit of the Bushies' Propaganda Program (I call it Goebbels v2.0, mamong other things) and the Bushies' Economic Restructuring of the money into "Higher, Tighter, and Righter hands," to quote Poppy Augustus Bush, First Emperor of Amerika (1984-1992).

The Democrats are sickened and disgusted by their own Base. Mission Accomplished, Herr Roverer!

[RaleighNCDUer]

1. This is such a disturbing take on things

that I really hate having to agree with it.

[SharonAnn]

151. I don't think the Republican Leadership likes its base very much, either.

[tom_paine]

154. Yeah, but at least they pretend to like them, and pay attention to them

especially on stuff like immigration.

The BUSHIES don't OPENLY scorn their base... EVER.

Can you say the same for the Democrats (actually, if you have read this whoele thread, you will alreday find the proof that it ain't so)?

[BridgeTheGap]

2. Depending upon soundbite ad campaigns rather than grassroots organizing

Has hurt the Dems for more than the g.o.p.
The g.o.p. for a period of years now has run better ground game campaigns than Dems. Fortunately, Howard Dean, as DNC chair, is changing this with the 50 state strategy. Democracy for America is also doing a great job of training people to run campaigns, with an emphasis on the ground game aspect.

[Ladyhawk]

4. I've come to the conclusion it doesn't make any difference whether or not...

...Democrats are elected.

Why? I think the OP says it nicely.

[tom_paine]

9. I would still highly suggest voting Democratically in 2008, though

Even if Hillary is the candidate.

Because there is still hope, however slight, that a big victory n 2008 will stiffen Democratic spines in Congress.

Give them the White House, too, and let's see if they can and want to do anything.

If they have everything and then STILL do nothing substantive to save the Constitution, then we'll know for SURE that it doesn't matter.

Until then, I am going to and I would suggest to everyone reading this thread to STILL VOTE DEMOCRATIC IN 2008!

Let's get mad, but not stupid.

[BridgeTheGap]

36. I plan to vote Dem in '08

The opportunity here is to really build a grassroots organization and pull people back into the process. If we do this right, we'll have a lot more say in which dems make it of the primaries.

[truedelphi]

105. WE HAVE ALREADY DONE THAT. THEY HAVE HAD THEIR CHANCE ALL THIS LAST SUMMER

Hillary is no more a Democrat than Ahnold Schwartzenegger. Yes, she's pro-abortion and wants/ needs to be seen as pro-environmentalist, but so is the Big A.

Her insistance on being part of the clamor for tough action against Iran means I cannot support her.

It's not my fault I won't support her. It is hers - for not actualizing a more Progressive stance

[superkia]

115. Kucinich in the primary but if Clinton is our nominee? I dont know?

[skyblue]

138. S-Chip for 1

Along with the Republican Party & Bush motto "f-u I got mine"

The New Republic article regarding SChip Child Health Insurance

thanks again jerks.

[Kolesar]

164. That was much more positive than your "dirty, smelly" cliches in your original post

I would like to see you go more in that direction.

[tom_paine]

178. I was merely pointing out that the Bushie Followers and our Democratic Leadership have been sold

the same thing and the same outlook on the Democratic Base. That's what I meant about the "dirty, smelly" cliches, not that they were true, but that is what both Dems and Reps now thought of the Democratic Base.

I didn't make this reality, I just describe it as I, and apparently many others, see it.

I'd be quite happy to go in the other direction, but for that, and especially at this late date, what would be required from me is a sign, the smallest sign, that the Democratic Leadership was serious about their opposition to Bushler.

To, just once, feel that I was a valued member of the Democratic Party coalition, not just a cog to be taken for granted.

I, for the last three "elections" (if you could call them that) have donated and busted my ass for the the Dems, waiting for the tiniest sign.

Like a thristy man crawling across the desert, like anyone familiar with the concept of "morale" and what effects it, I can only go so far without a splash of water to validate my efforts and keep me going onward.

The Democratic Leadership has given me nothing in that regard for seven years, and I can't take it anymore. The truth has to be told, damn it!

I am not alone in these feelings, surely you can see that. Not by a long sight.

You want me to change directions in my writings? I will do that when REALITY warrants. No more Free Passes. No More Excuses. Believe me, the Democratic Congressional Leadership has used them all up plus any reserves I might have had.

All I am asking is they act a little more like the Bushies (in the area of steadfastness, and aggressive outrage) in 1998 when the Bushies were pursuing a MERITLESS IMPEACHMENT.

Can't the Democratic Leadership even amass HALF the steadfastness and aggressive outrage for MULTIPLE FELONIES OPENLY PERFORMED?

Imitating the German Social Democrats and playing for 2008 while the Constitution burns isn't going to do it.

And anyway, that is a horrific gamble with horrific consequences for a loss, which if the Dems keep driving away their phone-bankers and precinct-walkers, MAY ACTUALLY HAPPEN.

And if you think I am happy about this, YOU'D BE WRONG.

[tom_paine]

5. Dean's 50-state strategy is excellent. More power to Dr. Dean! However,

the issue is sort of how the larger actions of the Democratic Leadership is to the Base upon which they supposedly depend to stuff their evnvelopes, make their calls, pound their pavements.

And it is thus: People find it difficult to soldier on without encouragement inthe form of both worss and deeds. Thus, in the larger issue of how the actions of the Democratic Base flags or finds it's econd wind to keep stirving.

Pretty hard to do that when your own Party Leadership thinks your a crazy moonbat and says so and displays it in their every action.

Some full disclosure, though:

1) I will be voting in 2008 and I will be voting for the Dem Candidates for Pres and Congress. I will cast no more votes for the Republics until they cease endorsing Kinder and Gentler Nazism, the New Totalitarianism, or whatever the hells you want to call it. There is no name for it yet.

2) Even though radicalized, I remain generally a moderate distrustful of even my own side, in conditions of concentrated power, as many DUers are. I will never be the Rock-Ribbed Democratic Party Loyalist as many other DUers are (and there is nothing wrong with that, I am just pointing out a difference).

[Raster]

18. Tom, I will vote for the Democratic candidate and work tirelessly to get Dems elected to Congress.

I want to believe in 2008, just like I wanted to believe in 2006, 2004, 2002 and 2000. And I ask you, what happens in 2008 when we have decided majority in both houses of Congress and the Presidency? Can we expect the un-Patriot Act to be dismantled? Can we expect the Bankruptcy Bill to be gutted? Can we expect immediate action toward universal health care? Can we expect immediate action on ending the bush* Iraq debacle? Can we expect swift and decisive action to outlaw lobbying, lobbyists and corporate bribery? Can we expect to have a rational, in depth discussion about rescinding corporate person-hood? Can we begin to expect national wealth stolen from the nation and given to the wealthy to begin flowing back to the public? Can we expect the tax laws to be changed to NOT FAVOR the rich?

And finally, is 2008 just another carrot dangled in front of the American public to get us to vote? And for that matter, will Congress take action to ensure that ALL VOTES count?

[riverdeep]

83. During the last election day is when the media chose to report

that, hey, there are election irregularities,let's make sure this doesn't happen again. I'm expecting another follow-up around Nov 08.

[OzarkDem]

55. I may sit out the 2008 election

for the first time since the Dem primaries in 1992, I may just walk away from fundraising and campaigning for Dems in 2008. I've been giving it strong consideration the last couple of weeks.

It really makes no difference right now. If they manage to avert disaster and another stolen election, they will end up ignoring rank and file Dems, electing shitty leaders who let the news media and corporate lobbyists tell them what to do, how to do it and when.

I love my party, and have hope it will eventually recover from this mess. But for now I'm probably going to focus on something besides politics for 2008. I need to remodel my kitchen and put my kids through college, and maybe get ready to run for office myself.

[OzarkDem]

54. Thank Carville for that

Lazy-ass, whore mongering style campaigns.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

123. and we can look for them party-wide if Hillary's the nominee

All of Dean's work will be for naught and the Begala types will be back in charge and looking for the next Dick Morris to turn to for advice

[OzarkDem]

135. Carville has to become the breadwinner

Matalin will be out of a job soon. Its a low achieving high school clique in DC with the same players taking turns in the same jobs.

[Liberal Dose]

157. The DLC needs to be dismantled. n/t

:hi:

[kenfrequed]

188. Well

We can't really dismantle it. It is an organization in its own right.

However we can heap scorn on it and/or ignore it. I tend to favor heaping scorn on it myself.

[Selatius]

3. If it could be boiled down to just one thing, I would say it's because of private money in elections

But it's not simply elections anymore; it's PACs and 527s and these myriad of groups that get around contribution limits by indirectly spending for their candidate, in the form of other-party advertisements that pretend to be neutral or pretend to be grassroots. I'm talking about all special interests.

There's got to be a constitutional amendment mandating public elections. Otherwise, private money will always tip the scales.

[rfranklin]

7. And elimination of corporate personhood...

No more (money powered)free speech for commercial enterprises.

[havocmom]

61. A-MEN!

:thumbsup:

As it is now, corporations have rights and powers. We The People have the national debt and outsourced jobs.

[Dr.Phool]

6. I don't like the Democratic "leadership" much anymore, myself.

[redqueen]

8. They all belong to the top 1%?

Even Dennis Kucinich?

[tom_paine]

10. I believe the top 1% earns ~$350 K a year or so

Anyone have Dennis' financials? I happen to like Dennis, myself, and perhaps he and precious few others may be in the 2nd percentile, which I believe is about ~$180K/yr, or even the 3rd percentile, ~$140K/year.

Besides, Dennis is a welcome and wholly unique exception, also, I don't think anyone would call him a part of the Democratic Leadership, though he should be, IMHO.

If anyone feels like Googling up this info, or has it at their fingertips, that would be most welcome.

[redqueen]

11. You said everyone in congress... house and senate.

I agree, he's the exception that proves the rule.

Which is why I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would vote for more of the same.

[tom_paine]

13. Fine, so sue me. Besides, I am not proven wrong until we see Dennis' financials

:evilgrin:

[redqueen]

17. Not getting lawyered up... just pointing out...

jeez

[tom_paine]

27. Peace, redqueen.

At the end of the day, we are all on the same side.

[tom_paine]

14. Duplicate

n/t

[Kolesar]

165. The top 3% are the millionaire families, and I know a lot of Congress are not millionaires

Most of the Senators are millionaires, but that does not mean that Congress is the top 1% of wealth in America.

Stop making shit up.

[Greyhound]

126. No, Someone posted his disclosure about a month ago.

His Congressional salary puts him in the top 5% or thereabout, but that is it. He is the poorest candidate by far.

BTW; the others (oops, don't know about Gravel) are all multi-millionaires which puts them in the top .3%, IIRC.

[riona]

12. We're the conscience they're trying to lose

[Demeter]

64. A Palpable Bon Mot!

If the Democratic Leadership wants to lead, then maybe it ought to get a map, a clue and some grassroots? I'm just saying, one person parades are generally poorly attended.

And the worst way to get grassroots is the way Democrats in Congress are doing it--getting the grassroots in opposition!

[ulysses]

106. well-put.

:toast:

[Totally Committed]

132. Exactly.

In seven words you said everything it probably would have taken me seven paragraphs to say. Thank you for the genius and the brevity.

TC

[NoFederales]

146. Couldn't be said any clearer! The details of the conscience being kicked

aside are as separate as Edward's "Two Americas" as well: the Ideals of the American Republic have visceral meaning to most citizens, and "they" DO have moments of clarity. Our "gifted" leadership? They have become unto themselves wizards, but I see no magic spells to solve problems, only that which magic truly is--illusion perpetrated on the spectator. So we "spectators", for that is truly all we are, have conscience, but our leadership wants us on permanent MUTE.

I will not be silent, though it has cost me plenty.

NoFederales

[On the Road]

15. I Think What You're Saying is True of Most of the Washington Leadership

However, Howard Dean has given more power to the state-level parties which IMO are not as elitist or beholden to special interests. The trade-off is that they are more socially conservative.

[xchrom]

16. recommend

[txaslftist]

19. This is exactly right.

Both parties have sold the people of this country for a few dozen thirty second spots in prime time.

[Mandate My Ass]

20. They're kinder, gentler fascists

but I don't believe Bush or Rove had anything to do with it.

Hillary said a mouthful recently when she said something along the lines of "you may not like it but lobbyists are important Americans too."

She serves her coporate masters; if there are any crumbs to be thrown out after she has offered up the fatted calf to TPTB, she'll most likely toss them to us. It's the only difference between dems and repubs right now, IMHO.

[Baby Snooks]

118. She really said that?

If so what she probably said to herself as she said it was "but they don't really represent the interests of the American people."

What could be worse than another Bush? Another Clinton.

[tom_paine]

121. DISAGREE FULLY!

:thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:

[Raksha]

21. There's just no other possible conclusion...

and the feeling is mutual!

[bobbolink]

22. Yet, we'll continually get reminded that the only hope in '08 is Dem.

Then, we can have another round of colossal disappointment.

So, remember to Donate and Work Hard For your Dem!

[redqueen]

23. And I will... for Kucinich.

:)

[bobbolink]

25. Since I'm so poor I'm not able to continue, and DK dropped poverty, he's not on my list.

He's ever popular with the anti-war crowd, but that doesn't help those of us who can't make it TODAY.

[redqueen]

26. Dropped poverty?

What do you mean?

[bobbolink]

58. I"ve said it many times.

I worked on his campaign very hard in '04. When I started on it, it was because of his strong stand on poverty. Midway through, he dropped it and went all wwwwaaaaarrrrr.

That HURT.

I became very invisible, and the other campaign people certainly didn't care that my very survival concerns had been dropped.

Yes, I know... you'll tell me all the position papers, etc. One person just posted a bunch of those because of what I said. NOTHING since 2002, and most were pre-2000.

HE DROPPED POVERTY.

IT HURTS.

[redqueen]

59. I'm not sure exactly what you mean... I guess that his focus shifted...

becuase it doesn't seem to me that he's stopped talking about poverty.

Either way, I hope you found a candidate you can support.

[bobbolink]

60. I meant exactly what I said. He DROPPED POVERTY.

He talks about war, and about impeachment.

He couldn't even sign on to the Housing Trust Fund BIll when all the other progressives did. It wasn't that important to him.

Edwards not only speaks up all the time about poverty, he PUSHES other Dems on it, and has done a LOT through the Institute he set up.

He's walking the walk!

[redqueen]

63. He also talks about poverty.

I don't know what else to say to you.

I guess you like Edwards... good luck with his insurance plan.

[bobbolink]

65. What else you could say is that you care, and will push him.

But, you'd rather be snarky....

Maybe someday you will feel hurt like this...

[redqueen]

66. Does it even matter?

Edwards might have a chance... but it'll probably be clinton or obama.

Also, that wasn't snark. I just really don't know what else to say to you, other than I'm sorry you're hurting... and I wish I didn't think things would get MUCH worse before they get better.

[bobbolink]

72. Clearly, it doesn't matter to you, or other DK supporters.

If you all REALLY cared about those of us who are suffering so much, you'd find it in your hearts to get together and PRESSURE him to DO MORE about poverty issues.

What would that really cost you?

Yet, what you do is question me for saying what I experienced, and tell me to go find someone else, then add snark to *that*.

I used to think, when I was involved with the campaign, that DK people were caring. I now see the other side of it.

You could say more, if you wanted to, if it mattered.

"and I wish I didn't think things would get MUCH worse before they get better."

And that will happen because "liberals" can;t be bothered for anything other than wwwaaaarrrrr protests.

My life, and the lives of so many thousands of others, matters not.

Which is why I just gave up.

IT HURTS.

[redqueen]

74. You've already said it hurts. MORE THAN ONCE. But LOTS of people are hurting.

Fucking hell.

DK supporters are no more a homogenous entity than any other group of people... but thanks for the group insult just the same.

:puke:

[bobbolink]

76. YEs, I can sure hear your compassion.

Gawd, does it get any more self-serving than that???

Grow a heart.

fuck your own hell.

[redqueen]

77. deleted

fucking pointless

[bobbolink]

98. Yup, it's pointless, because all DK people do now is get defensive.

You KNOW he dropped it, and resent like hell being held to account.

[amandabeech]

100. I have never, ever written this on the internet or otherwise, but here it goes.

You are an unbelievably cold and cruel individual.

[bobbolink]

179. Yes. It's hard to see those words in print, but there it is!

It really takes my breath away to see just how hard=hearted some people are!

It is truly why I just plain gave up.

Thank you for seeing it.

It's so very sad, and so very ....well, more than discouraging.

It makes some of us just give up and want to lay down and die.

[bobbolink]

180. I've considered gathering some of these hateful replies and

sending them to the Kucinch campaign, so they can see how they are represented.

I've talked quite a bit to Elizabeth, and I think she would be horrified to see just how ugly DK supporters are being.

[amandabeech]

99. I've been there.

It does hurt.

I don't know why so many people here are so cold. Maybe they think that things won't happen to them. They've completely let go of the New Deal and Great Society ideals that made the Democratic Party, and no other party seems to want to take up the mantle.

But things eventually do, not that that's any comfort to you now.

I intend to vote for Edwards, but I have to put my energies to my work so that I can get some overtime to help my Mom.

Some people I knew from better days are working for Edwards. They used to work for Tom Harkin, and they really believe in Edwards's "Two Americas" ideas. Maybe they'll come through.

I can't do anything for you, but I do hope that things will improve. If it's any comfort to you, my situation is much improved this year over last, but the climb to that first temp job was tough. Maybe you don't want to hear it now, I sure didn't at one point, but most people who have worked do get back to work. In temp world, not that many people have a decent work ethnic, so if you do, you will stand out, and you will get work, even if health care remains elusive. I truly wish you well.

[bobbolink]

113. "I don't know why so many people here are so cold."

It's really amazing, isn't it? Yet, they want votes for their candidate. And, of course, when said candidate doesn't do so well, then they'll complain that poor people "don't vote their own best interests." Yet, if we make noise about our own best interests, then it's "Stop talking about being Hurt... many people are hurt." Yeah, that really bespeaks of a lot of compassion. :sarcasm:

I think that these posts have shown exactly why some poor people have given up not only on politics, but even on voting. They know their pain doesn't matter, so why even try? (On the other hand, it was POOR PEOPLE who stood in line for 5, 7 and even more hours to vote, yet that is hardly ever credited to poor folk!)

I have been completely knocked over by the lack of caring. It's impossible for me to comprehend that people have become this hard. When I was protesting about Vietnam, there was so much compassion and caring and ultra-humaness! I can't understand what the hell has happened. I can only say now that as people are complaining that the muddleclass is suffering, I hope it colapses soon. That seems to be the ONLY way people will get their compassion back. When people are told to shut up about being hurt, the heart has gone out of the country, the party, and that candidate.

I'm glad that things are looking up for you. You focus on jobs. Remember that there are many people who can't work. Either from age or disability. We are people too, and still deserve to live.

Thank you so much for your kind words. Given all the ugliness in those posts, your words mean a lot to me!

:pals:

[amandabeech]

114. I remember the '60s, too.

I don't do smilies, but yours back at you!

[nxylas]

161. He made poverty one of his issues on his campaign website

http://www.dennis4president.com/go/issues/end-to-poverty/

Doesn't sound like he's dropped it to me.

[bobbolink]

175. What has he DONE? PUtting it on his website, where few see it,

doesn't do a heck of a lot. And judging from the harsh words of his supporters, it doesn't even get through to those who vote for him.

As I've said before, he dropped it in '04, when I was working HARD on his campaign. I was THERE, so I KNOW.

HR2895 was brought up in June ---he didn't bother to sign on to it until just a few days ago. Not much of a priority there.

Edwards PUSHES other Dems to get ACTIVE in poverty issues. Dennis hasn't.... he only works on wwwwaaarrr issues.

I could give other examples, but rather than hearing and caring, most supporters just want to argue.

So, are you going to canvas for Dennis in poor neighborhoods, as I did? How will you answer questions about what he's doing for poor people NOW? Not what he did in 2002, or 2000, or before that, but NOW?

[eridani]

79. What in bleeding hell do you expect our government to do about poverty--

--when they are spending trillions for a useless war? It's the war that stops us from spending more money on socially useful things.

[bobbolink]

97. yeah, yeah, yeah.... and when the war is over, you'll all be lobbying for poor folk, right?

Bleeding hell right back atcha....

[eridani]

116. Kucinich has spent his entire life working for underdogs

Where do you get off thinking that he's forgotten about living in a car when he was a kid?

[bobbolink]

171. Because he dropped it. How many more times does it take to repeat that?

All any of you are concerned about now is wwwwaaarrrr.

Just look at the insensitive things that have been said to me. In so many words, people have said my life doesn't matter.

So be it.

It doesn't matter.

That says MUCH about a campaign.

[eridani]

190. He didn't drop it. Why do you think he wants to repeal NAFTA?

The solution to poverty is jobs.

[kenfrequed]

153. I will be.

I grew up poor. Technically I am pretty close to poor still (definitely poor if you count paying off my student loans). No one should have to grow up worrying about getting enough to eat or where they are going to live or if they can afford healthcare. Hell I lived in a tarpaper shack outside of pine city. We had no television much of the time and my mother rarely had a car that worked.

I support Dennis Kucinich. Just because he is campaigning against the War as his primary platform doesn;t mean his other platforms are meaningless to him. Campaigns are like that, he has to make the argument that is going to get the most attention and for him it is this War.

And let me tell you something about the people that fight in our wars. Most of them are from poor and middle class families. The sons of senators and CEOs are as hard to find on the battlefield as snowflakes in florida. And the war debt will be used as an excuse to prevent spending on social welfare and infrastructure in the future as we are forced to pay it off. The budget will be rebalanced on the backs of the working poor and middle class, while the people that are even poorer have whatever crumbs that are doled out to them sponged away by more 'Welfare reform'

Believe me I don't have to say 'I feel your pain' or some plithe pithy bit of crap like that. I Was there and I think I still am there. That said I think Edwards is an ok choice but for me Kucinich is a better one. I wouldn't have a problem voting for Edwards in the general election, but I am supporting Kucinich through the primary.

[bobbolink]

170. In the meantime, how many people are DYING of poverty, right here in the US?

DK can and SHOULD be working for more than one issue at a time, and so should his supporters.

I can't even tell you how bad it is for me right now, because I get so many attacks, and because it isn't even allowed to post how bad it is.

It sounds like you understand at least a little of what I'm saying, but here's where it is... by the time you get around to working for the poverty issue, it will be too late for me. I won't be on the planet anymore.

Does that matter?

Do you hear the courage it takes for me to even say that?

[kenfrequed]

187. I know

I know you really are trying to support Edwards and I appreciate that. I find he is a candidate that I can support too.

I think you miss my point though with regards to poverty. Kucinich never stopped WORKING on poverty regardless as to whether his CAMPAIGN is focusing on the war. As a congressman Kucinich has done a great deal for the poor and will continue to do so WHATEVER the outcome of his race for the presidency.

I think there are other democrats that need to be convinced of your argumnets. Particularly those that have already decided (for no imaginable reason) on Hillary. I think we both might be able to agree that if she gets the nomination the margin of improvement for the poorest Americans probably won't amount to much.

And what do you mean that you won't be on the planet anymore?

[Greyhound]

128. Yeah, like in the 90's...

:eyes:

I remember how poverty, homelessness, and labor, were such high priorities.




We have become so selfish, indifferent, and cruel. In the 30's people that had practically nothing would still give some to those with even less, can you see the people that step over and on the street people doing that today?

[bobbolink]

172. "We have become so selfish, indifferent, and cruel. "

Thank you, greyhound1966, for GETTING IT!

You said it better than I did, and I appreciate it.

I can't even begin to say how all this noncaring has affected me. Especially by those who claim to be so "aware".

[Greyhound]

177. You are more than welcome.

I've been sitting here (not sending out more resumes, bad dog, bad!) trying to think of just when it was that we changed as a people.

It's easy to blame it on the Raygun revulsion, but that was brought on, primarily, by the same viciousness that so many wear like a badge of honor, so it was already prevalent in the 70's.

There is plenty of evidence of widespread altruism during the Great Depression, so did this happen somewhere in between, or was that an aberration?

Thoughts?

[tom_paine]

182. I think Kurt Vonnegut put it best.

His theory was that, in playing a major (in terms of machinery...THE MAJOR) role in defeating Hitler and the Nazis, collectively we were feeling VERY virtuous.

This feeling of national virtuousness, for one of the very few times in Human History, was well-deserved, and it was NOT nationalistic self-righteousness, which is another matter.

Vonnegut maintains that we kept this feeling of national virtuous has stayed with us ever since, long after it stopped being deserved by virtue of what we did to places like Guatemala, Chile, Iraq and Iran in the 50s and 60s, but that collectively this now UN-deserved sense of national virtuousness had allowed us to be more deepy in denial about how little that FEELING of virtuousness now little matches our ACTIONS.

[LWolf]

139. FYI

re: our previous conversation:

I registered at the Shultz site and posted two questions, one specifically about addressing people in need NOW.

I asked that question with you in mind.

You can check the link to find my question. I don't know if it will be asked, but I believe the program will stream live, if you are still online at that time. You can browse through the other questions as well, and even add your own if you can get registered in time.

I'll be at work during the program, so I won't know if my questions are asked or not, but I'll check the site tonight to see if I can listen to an archive or see a transcript.

[bobbolink]

174. thank you. That's what I was asking for.

Just to show some support and understanding of what I'm dealing with.

I won't be able to listen to it, even if I'm still breathing, because I can't get it at the library, and sometimes can't get a computer at the library.

BTW, I don't see a link.

Now, I'd appreciate it if you'd talk to others about bringing up these issues! Some of us are desperate.

thanks.

[LWolf]

191. I'm hoping to find a transcript.

I couldn't listen at work, and haven't found a place where the broadcast is archived to listen to, so I don't know if they used my questions. I hope a transcript will be up this week; I'll check back in if I find one.

[The Count]

24. "74% of Americans have 0% representation." - CAN'T ARGUE WITH THIS (and I'd love too)

It is disturbingly true.

[LibDemAlways]

125. Try getting the attention of a politician. I wrote a letter

to a Presidential candidate earlier this year about a local matter I thought would be of interest. I didn't expect a personal reply, but I thought perhaps it would end up on the desk of an aide and I'd get at the very least some sort of "thank you for bringing this to my attention" form letter response. What I got was my name put on a fundraising list, and I've been bombarded ever since. The letter was never even acknowledged.

My own so-called "representative" in Congress is a vile repuke who tows the party line. A rubber stamp would be just as effective and a lot cheaper.

The ordinary person has no representation, and it's reached the point where the politicians don't even pretend to care.

[Kolesar]

166. I have hand written letters from my Senator

from when he was in the House

[LibDemAlways]

168. You are fortunate. I was very disappointed that

my letter ended up being useful to the candidate only because it contained my name and address for fundraising purposes. You'd think staffers would be more sensitive to the content of letters, but apparently, in this case at least, not.

There was a long DU thread one time about my Congressman and an incident in which he instructed his staff to throw a group of Dems out of his office. That's how much interest he has in "representing" his constituents.

I just get so damn tired of seeing the public ignored. Even at the local city council meetings, when they put aside time for "public comment," the idiots on the council get up and use the bathroom, read the paper, or talk among themselves while members of the public address them. It's incredibly rude and disrespectful, and it's been going on for years, and few people care. The same morons get re-elected every time - based on name-recognition alone.

[Kolesar]

169. Well, keep your chin up and hold your head high

You are doing the right thing!
My Senator is a peach.

[Cha]

28. Maybe they're a party

in search of a base?

[Truth2Tell]

43. It's a secret plan... shhhhh

They want to sneak around back and steal the Republics base! Then they will have both bases! ahhh.... wait a sec..

[KoKo]

144. zidzi.....I think you NAILED IT! A party in search of a base.....

probably won't see it now...but it will come one day....

[tom_paine]

150. No, they just want a cleaner, more Family Values Base instead of what they think they have

What they secretly yearn for is what they have Pavolvian-style been trained (with Fox "News" and the League of Vile Pundits, which is too say all of them, as the electric shocks of pain) to want.

The Bushie Base. So malleable. So clean cut and "moral" (though the reality is Ted Haggard and Larry Craig, but reality has nothing to do with it). :silly: Of course it's all bullshit, as much or more than the Nazi SS representing the highest morality possible (yes, that's what they believed) in Germany.

Nazis and Bushies also share another characteristic. The folllowers, anyway. And that is minds compartemtalized enough and propagandized enough to "KNOW" the opposite of what is TRUE, and no amount of reality and hard data can change it.

The point is, the Democrats yearn secretly, maybe they don't even consciously know that they are doing it. After all, good advertising and selling takes place inthe subconscious, where conscious reason cannot defend.

It's all bullshit, but then, what isn't in imperial Amerika 2007?

[flashl]

29. Seems like time to read a book whose time has come "Demonstration elections"

"Demonstration elections are "free elections" as a tool of public relations.

Elections have been used by the United States as an instrument of management in Third World client states since the turn of the century. The functions which they have served, however, have changed in accordance with the shifting demands placed upon the managers. The aim in holding such elections has always been o ensure 'stability'. In the first half of this century the threat to stability came almost exclusively from within the client states, which were subject to internal turmoil and thus threatened with a loss of 'independence.' In recent decades, serious challenges have arisen from within the United States itself. It is this shift in functional need that has led to the emergence of elections oriented to influencing the home (U.S.) population, which we designate 'demonstration elections.'

<snip>
A demonstration election depends largely on the cooperation of the mainstream media.

— Edward S. Herman and Frank Brodhead, Demonstration Elections: U.S.-staged elections in the Dominican Republic, Vietnam, and El Salvador, South End Press, 1984, p. 1.

Could it be true, we are witnessing the results of "demonstration elections"? And, why do we always believe that such things can only happen somewhere else?

[tom_paine]

30. I think it is a 90% certainty that Bushie tactics used on the Third World 1970-1990,

are being used on the Imperial Subjects of Amerika NOW.

(well, all the tactics but the Right-Wing Death Squads, and I don't think we have three generation before we wait until the Salvador Option comes to Amerikan shores)

I think the Stolen Election 2000 played out almost nearly as Ed Luttwak predicted, when he wrote his book "Coup D'Etat: A Practical Manual", and by following the principles laid out in that book (and more) Bushies "used the parts of government they controlled to take over the parts they didn't control", as Luttwak states.

Are "demonstration elections" part of that? You betcha'.

I view 2000, 2002, and 2004 "demonstration elections", and 2006 I suspect would have been a landslide but for Bushie Election Fraud and Voter Suppression.

[flashl]

31. Agree. n/t

[RaleighNCDUer]

140. Three generations?

I'm wondering if we have as much as three election cycles.

A playwright, Chekov maybe, said that if you put a rifle on the mantle in the first act, it must be used by the third act.

Blackwater et al have been on the mantle for years, and were taken down and brandished in New Orleans, somewhere in Act 2. Act three is coming up, and I believe we will see it used, sooner than later.

[tom_paine]

141. OK, I may be wildly optimistic here.

But I may not. No one knows exactly what the future will bring.

[Greyhound]

129. Become more and more transparent since 1968. n/t

[flashl]

137. It seems that no one is interested in change

Remember Lani Guinier's nomination for Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights in 1993? She supported a system of proportional representation. A chorus of shrills about quota queen went out on the airwaves and no one had a chance to understand what she was saying.

I feel the frustration of the base.

IMHO, there are several factors at work that we seemingly continue to ignore. One is “gerrymandering” and another is buying into the “winner takes all” mentality.

It is my sincere belief that when the base understands the impact of these and other factors in operation, we will be a step closer to realizing our objectives.

[tom_paine]

142. Old-time Gerryamndering becomes somthing else when combined with Modern Computing Power

That is worthy of a whole thread by itself.

But I agree that you have touched on something VERY significant here.

On another note, that's what the Bushevik Party-Loyal Sub-Media and Lie Laundry is for...to prevent ALL Amerikans from having the necessary information to understnd the world.

The better to enslave us.

So, I have stopped counting on the Amerikan People to see through the New Hitler (in sufficient numbers to stop him, anyway) any more than the German People were able to see through the first Hitler.

I would like to be shown to have been wrong about this, though.

[flashl]

145. I am frustrated, pissed off, and several others, but I haven't yet given up

We must simply face the reality of our politics where fewer than one in ten House races are competitive.

This is serious, elections are on autopliot. This means that almost from the start, more than 90% of races can be safely put in one party’s camp.

I believe in the American people and I know that most are concern.

Smart people like you need to find a way to say v-e-r-y s--l--o--w--l--y "gerrymandering" and get the public's attention.

I am convinced that when the public understands why they can't climb of the hole, they will change it.

[tom_paine]

152. I've been "Paul Revere-ing" for almost seven years now

and you would absolutely NOT BELIEVE how thick people are to this stuff BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BE!

Man, just thinking about it pisses me off, because it IS NOT a matter of poor intelligence. A majority of the American People are NOT DUMB. Maybe a lack of information and a surplus of Bushie Disinformation & Lies, but not intelligence.

After seven years of Paul Revere-ing to a people more like Germans of 1933 that Americans of 1775, I can tell you one thing:

It's NOT lack of intelligence on the part of the American People. It is DENIAL.

Another thing I have learned is that I would rather fight a thousand stupidities than a SINGLE INSTANCE OF WILLFUL DENIAL of an unpleasant or inconvenient truth.

If it were only just a matter of explaining it slower. If only it were that EASY, we wouldn't be in this mess and W Bush would be somewhere lazing around and losing more of Poppy's friends' money.

[flashl]

159. I understand, trust me.

Let’s see if some of these ring a bell, over the past few years, I have learned a couple of things:

People that you find in political circles fall into a couple of categories:

It’s just a social thing.
They have their own agendas.
They really do not have allegiance to the group or party they operate within.
They have learned how to pimp the system.
They will only interact with the part of the process that they “like”.

Am I close?

[tom_paine]

176. Actually, I guess I have seen things a bit differently. I have seen mostly these categories:

People who are too tired, harried, and hurried to give much of a shit ("gotta pick up the kids" "gotta get to the second job" "gotta hurry and get Junior to soccer practice")

People in denial ("this isn't happening!" "crazy" "tell me any facts you wish, I will nod my head but not change my attitude a whit...go ahead pour the fucking library of Congress in my ear, before I will acknowledge a most unpleasant and inconvenient truth!")

Bushies "The Dupes" who lack historical knowledge and critical thinking skills. They have just been pants-shitting scared since 9/11.

Bushies "Freeper Types" or "Right-Wing Authoritarian Followers" - why bother explaining, except by suggesting you click on my sigline.

Bushie Leadership or "High Social Dominators" The same as the last. Click on my sigline.

Perhaps, when viewed from another angle, your categories makes sense. Please don't take my disagreement as a personal insult. It's not. I am just sharing my observation after seven years of bigmouthed Paul Revere-ing.

[flashl]

192. I am reading while remapping a few characters

I really enjoyed the 70 year old who suddenly needed to call their babysitter. And, I don't get insulted easily. I enjoy exchange of ideas or challenge to view world differently.

[Greyhound]

181. Two reasons that will not happen in our lifetimes, the first is that the beneficiaries

of these abominations are the ones that would have to change them, and the second is that the base, the whole citizenry, doesn't want to know. Will, in fact, go to great, almost comical, lengths to avoid knowing.

Gerrymandering keeps the incumbents of both parties safe in their seats where they can ignore the suckers that they're supposed to represent and ensures that the cash and benefits keep pouring in from those that they really do represent.

When do you think the corporatocracy took complete control of our government?

[tom_paine]

183. I think the elimination of the Kennedy Brothers and MLK

got rid of the last true stumbling blocks. It has just taken awhile to put the Goebbels v2.0 infrastructrure together and parasitize the Consitutituion.

[flashl]

186. IMHO America was a corporation from inception

Through our "education” process, we learn to believe that this is our country and there is the reinforcement with the pledge, voting, and other symbolic gestures. It took a while, but I have learned that a challenge to a person’s core beliefs is serious business; it is an attack on the essence of the individual. Hence, blank stares, dismissals, anger, and other shutdowns.

[Greyhound]

195. That faction certainly existed from the beginning, John Adams and Alexander Hamilton

for example, were strong advocates for a new aristocracy, so you do have a valid point.

The progressive movement in the late 19th early 20th century made some remarkable improvements on what the Republicans accomplished (when they were still Republicans), but in trying to create some sort of WASP utopia they went rather overboard on the social front and ignored the economic.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

32. Cool post! Highly recommended!

quote "65% of Americans (Bush's disapproval rating) and a maximum of 74% of Americans (people who think the nation is on the wrong track) are the Bad News Bears"

Hey we're the BAD News Bears!

:kick:

:applause:

[zippy890]

33. US Senate = Millionaires Club

its a profit deal. and lots of it.

good post

[iamthebandfanman]

34. thats always been the case and heres why

Its easier to lable the democratic base as 'crazy' or 'far out there' but when you do it to their side it is seen as attacking christianity.

they use religion as a disquise for their extremists, we dont.
its easy to pick on us and make us look like we are just crazy whacky pinko lefties than it is to call them crazy whacky religious nuts.

*shrugs*

[tom_paine]

35. More than that, so many of us DUers aren't even ardent Lefties

Just so sickened by the unConstitutionality.

What's funny is that, absent ths emergency of the collapse of Constitutional Governance at the highest levels, I would still probably be voting for the Republics 30% of the time, and sounding more like robcon that the extreme Left Winger most people mistake me for because of my radicalism.

A Radicalized Moderate is what I am. When people with that appellation begin appearing, a society is in trouble, I believe, because a strong and healthy Free Nation, such as the Old American Republic, simply would and did not have such people, because Radicalized Moderate is a crazy contradiction in terms that can only come out as society stretches to the breaking point of what it was (free) to what it is becoming (BushPutinist, New Totalitarianism, whatever you want to call it, it doesn't have a name yet).

[spotbird]

38. It's the

neoconization of both Parties. Almost all Republicans drank the neocon Kool Aid, and about half the Democrats. I will not support a single one of them, regardless of their party affiliation.

Like you, I'm not all that far left on many issues, but the destruction of the country is hard to take.

[eyeontheprize]

37. The plan is to

win back the Reagan Democrats. The problem is they'll lose those who have stuck with them this far.

Maybe they'll gain more than they lose, but the government will not change until the public demands it. Speaking for myself, I'm not voting to keep my Democratic senator, and maybe not my congressman.

[tom_paine]

40. I say again: I DO NOT RECOMMEND voting against Dems in November 2008

at least not at the National Level.

If you are talking about supporting Progressives over DLC in primaries, I stand with you. But come November, given the realities of the situation in Imperial Amerika 2007, there is only one operative phrase you should remember:

"Either we shall all hang together, or surely we will all hang seperately."
--Ben Franklin

[OzarkDem]

56. Understood

I'm just planning to walk away from it all for 2008 and focus on running for Congress in 2010. Myself. As a Dem. I'll show them what a real Democrat looks like.

[Individualist]

84. Rewarding enablers with votes only encourages more enabling

I'll vote for Kucinich.

[tom_paine]

91. In November? What if he's not on the ticket?

I am talking the brutal pragmatic of a Free Nation in downward spiral.

Let's not make the same mistakes the German Left and the German Moderates did when Hitler showed up, fighting so badly amongst themselves that there was no concerted oppostional push when the very idea of German Freedom demanded it or be lost.

Sound familiar?

[Individualist]

93. Write-in

The German analogy is ridiculous.

I will NOT vote for a DLC nominee.

This is why the DLC is dangerous. For all their claims of supposedly wanting to help Democrats, they employ people like Marshall Wittman who specifically try to undermine the Democratic Party, even if it means he has to publicly defecate out the most rank and easily-debunkable lies. They reguarly give credence to the right wing's agenda and its worst, most unsupportable lies. They are the real force that tries to make sure this country is a one party state and that Democrats never really challenge the Republicans in a serious way.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sirota/why-the-dlc-is-so-dangero_b_13640.html

Without a doubt, the DLC is the most fundamentalist organization within the caucus, the most ideologically rigid, and the most destructive to the progressive cause.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/5/24/1712/23448

[tom_paine]

102. You think that the analogy of the Left fractuously fighting amongst themselves while RW Authoritar-

-ianis took control by marching in frighteningly unified lockstep is ridiculous?

I suppose then you also think that the analogy of Caeser gaining imperial power over the republican Roman Senate by systematically "pushing the envelope" and fracturing the coalitions of the Opposition Party while distracting the people with Bread and Circuses...I suppose that's a ridiculous analogy, as well.

We are living the one of the oldest and most repeated histories in human endeavors. Left, Right, Up, Down, ultimately just about ANY philosophy can be used as a tools by deceptive tyrants seek autocratic power.

I say again:

"Either we all hang together or we shall all hang seperately."
--Benjamin Franklin

We must agree to disagree.

[H2O Man]

39. I think that

there are advantages in being able to view the country in, among other ways, a variation of what Elijah Muhammad taught many years ago, which was that birds of feather tend to stick together. He used the example of black birds hanging out with black birds, and other animals with their own kind. And while I would not suggest that we look back to Elijah too often, he did make the point that when the sun goes down, and the danger of the darkness is the greatest, all animals seek their own, for safety.

That said, I think that if we look at the ruling class in Washington DC, we will notice that after the sun sets, they socialize with their own. It doesn't matter if they are from one political party or another: they are going to socialize at the same cocktail party. And neither you nor I will be invited to attend. We might be there as a waiter, or to clean up the trash afterwards. But not to socialize.

[tom_paine]

45. Yeah, but that was true in 1945-2000, too, wasn't it?

Of course, wealth inequality being what it was and now is, after the Great Depression and the Great Compression (of incomes) that Krugman talks about, it seems like during that period in the flush of being a key component of the defeat of Hitler and feeling rightfully virtuous, Americans had a solidarity. More to the point the Rich didn't regard the Poor quite so badly as they do today.

Plus, lots of those rich boys had gotten out and fought in WWII, so they actually got to meet some of their Serfs.

So that shift in attitude between that generation and this generation of pampered rich boys who easily evaded war and view the poor as disposable tissues is a key difference.

What you say about the cocktail parties of the Ruling Classes has always been true, but in 1945-2000 America, for a brief and shining short era, maybe just 1945-1980, the promise of America was being fufilled somewhat.

Anybody who worked hard and wanted to work could usually find a good job with stable employment and some kind of decent retirement of Social Security plus pensions. Sadly, the African-American community did not get to share in most of this duirng it's height '45-'65, but more and more in the years following through Clinton.

I don't know, this post is getting a bit muddled. I guess what I am saying is that both wealth inequality and the degree with which the rich view the rest of us are both going in the same direction.

And I still maintain (perhaps I am in denial) that the Old American Republic, for everything it did bad and good, was still perhaps the Greatest Era of the Great Nation in Human History.

It created the framework taht the Bushies are now dismantling today: African-American and minority ENfranchisement, civil rights, women's rights, environmentalism. The Founding Fathers' dream they couldn't have envisioned.

Except perhaps the orginal Tom Paine (he was the only Founding Father steadfastly against Slavery as early as the 1770s) and George Washington, who said,

As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality.

And we are so close to losing it... :grr:

[Uncle Joe]

48. I agree, I believe the ruling class has a litany of inside jokes,

they tell among them selves during these cocktail parties, disparaging the very people they're sent to represent.

Power will do that, with all the exquisite perks of the various leadership jobs feeding the morphing of their primary vocations from serving the people, to leading the people, to ruling the people becomes a most subtle, imperceptible and irresistible change.

I believe if a Mr. or Mrs. Smith were sent to Washington today, they would surely get the Al Gore treatment. If a representative was serious and dedicated about their job and not centered on the socializing, courtesan aspect so much, they would quickly be labeled stiff and boring only interested in wonky issues. Furthermore, I believe these cocktail parties may have influenced those millionaire pundits in their evaluation that "who would you be more comfortable having a beer with?" should play such a preeminent role in determining the occupant for the most powerful job in the land.

[porphyrian]

41. That certainly seems to be the case. -n/t

[LittleClarkie]

42. Depends on who they think their base is I suppose

Perhaps they see some of these people as being farther to the left of their base.

Meanwhile, I still remember the allnighter, and the way most of the House and several of the Senate Dems came out to the peace rally.

They didn't seem sickened then.

I think you might be overstating things a bit.

[Truth2Tell]

44. Ahhh yes, the allnighter.

A day that changed the world.

uhhh, wait....

[LittleClarkie]

47. But it doesn't matter if it works. Only that it was the right thing to do

Or should I stop standing on the street corner with the "Where's Bin Laden" sign because I haven't changed the world yet?

[tom_paine]

49. It WAS the right thing to do. It's a shame they didn't do the right thing after that

which was to KEEP FIGHTING and not roll over!

And PLEASE do not assume I am telling you or any of us to give up. I AM NOT! We all have our own personal breaking point, when is enough is f*cking well ENOUGH!

I have reached mine.

But God NO! I AM NOT advocating that you reach yours, nor give up nor anything of that sort. I say this sincerely: Perish the thought.

I was pointing out what seems to be to be an increasingly clear and disturbing reality. I have worked a lot and donated a lot to the Dems in 2002, 2004 (especially 2004) and 2006. Made a lot of phone calls, knocked on a lot of doors, stuffed more than a few piles of envelopes (God Bless the Wetting Sponge), and filled out a lot of voter response data worksheets, among many other things.

"Yo Vinne, could you hand me the even-year independant but democratic-leaning list so I can dial some numbers? Hello? My name tom_paine and I represent the Xxxxxxxx Xxxxxxxxx campaign..."

No, LittleClarkie, I am not advocating anyone giving up. And if you were being serious about the streetcorner sign, because HELL YEAH! do I hope you are at your corner tomorrow.

Think about it. If my doing what I did, and I admit there are plenty of people who do a whole whole whole lot more than me, put me above 98% of Americans in terms of civic participation & putting our own asses personally on the line, then what you do puts you into the top 0.05% of Americans.

Be proud, LC. You are a "rich elitist" in a way Bushler/Cheney could never even fathom.

I hope I have made myself clear. Go on as long as you have the will to do so. I support you 110%.

[LittleClarkie]

50. Thank you. It's just that I was proud of Congress just then

and I'd like to think they did it for the right reasons.

I was serious. I'm not out there as much as I'd like, but I've been out there. There is a group in the same spot every Sunday from 12 to 1 pm. They include nuns and vets. It's the same spot that was used back in the Vietnam days, because it's a T intersection and you can't help but look at these people as you wait for the light to change.

I'm there too when I can be.

[Truth2Tell]

95. Are you fibbing me LittleClarkie?

I'd suggest at least taking breaks to eat and sleep. But that's up to you. Fight the power my friend.

But really, the thing is that the allnighter wasn't actually the right thing to do by itself. I do value some symbolism, true enough, but outcomes are paramount. And before you label me a hypocrite, I actually believe Impeachment, for example, could have a successful outcome. I'm even more sure that a refusal by the Democratic leadership to bring war funding to a vote could have a positive outcome. And that's in their power. And they can even sleep afterwards, figuratively and literally.

[endarkenment]

46. Unfortunately you are most correct.

I'd quibble only about the seven years part: "this has really been going on pretty much steadily for seven years" - the loathing at the top for the klowns at the bottom has been festering and growing since we klowns put McGovern up for president. They were horrified that the Democratic Party was, for one brief campaign cycle, actually run by and for the people it supposedly represented. They have made sure that such an abomination will never happen again.

[Disturbed]

52. The Dem Party takes the Progressives for granted.

They know that since voting otherwise than Dem for Natl. offices would bring in Rethugs that most Progressives cave in & vote for a Dem. It always gets back to the Electoral System that favors only two parties.

The Electoral System

Repeal the 12th amendment, reforming the electoral college, standardizing party qualifications in the states, qualified and free access to public airwaves.

1.Uniform Ballot Access
2.Loosen Third Party Ballot Restrictions
3.Universal Voter Registration
4.Election Day Holiday
5.Equal Media Access/Debate Inclusion
6.Instant Runoff Voting (IRV)
7.Secure Voting Machines
8.Public Campaign Financing
9.Direct Popular Vote Election of the President
10.DC Congressional Representation

[arikara]

51. Of course they don't like the liberal base

we mess up their agenda. I've been observing politics over many years and have reluctantly come to realize that whoever is pulling the strings for the governments in most of the world with a few notable exceptions, is also controlling the agenda of both parties. So unless the people wake up and take back their parties and governments, nothing will ever actually change. The way it stands now, with these so-called frontrunners, if the dems should actually "win" they'll make a few quick cosmetic alterations to a few things that don't really affect the agenda, but the march towards what the string pullers want will continue on schedule.

So my prediction is that if Hillary, Obama, or Edwards become the next president that warring will continue, the patriot act will stand, the bankruptcy bill will remain unchanged, nafta, cafta, the spp and outsourcing will continue without interruption. There will be lots of talk about health care but no changes of any substance, especially changes that cut in to the profits of the HMO's and pharmaceutical corporations.

I have to believe that for the good of the world none of these figureheads will win.

[OzarkDem]

57. they don't like the moderate base either

the only ones they care for are the right wing of the Dem party - the ones who help them get those fat corporate donations.

Universal health care is not a "leftist" concept, its mainstream.

Same with getting out of Iraq

Fixing the economy

Improving education

Energy Independence

Clean Environment

All are mainstream concepts, ebraced by a wide majority of Americans.

[tom_paine]

86. Bingo. Nailed it.

n/t

[RainDog]

53. Republicans don't call their base "assholes"

when on mic talking to a democrat either.

Look at what Frist did during the Teri Shiavo case... he basically shat upon his hippocratic oath in order to pander to people who don't even base their politics on any earthly idea of what actually constitutes a govt or privacy, etc.etc.etc.

Things I've learned over the Bush residency:

1. The democrats are more concerned about how they appear to conservatives than to liberals.
2. The proportion of ideologies represented at the federal level does not match the attitudes of the people they supposedly represent.
3. The house, which is supposed to be more "responsive" to the direct will of the people could give a shit about what democrats think if those reps are yellow doggers, at the least.
4. The level of experience you have with difficulties that are not of your own making cooresponds, often, to the level of disgust you have with govt. actions.
5. The level of disgust cooresponds to your willingness to learn about horrendous actions in the past and thus wonder about present actions.
6. The way that Bush stole the prez, with the help of the supreme court, along with the way the republican legislature tried to institute a total one-party system makes me doubt the survival of American democracy...and I am not alone in this... among other "radical moderates." -- tho I don't know if I'm moderate anymore. I don't fit with the description of a radical, either.
7. Both the republican's actions and the democrats' response make me wish I could move to a liberal nation. This feeling has grown, not subsided, over the last 7 years. Because, when you have seen the ways in which other nations' govts respond to the united efforts of people in their nations to create positive change for its people... you wonder what happened here.

[redqueen]

68. What happened here?

We imported fucking nazis, and let them loose in our gov't. (Operation paperclip)

Oh, and then there was also the Reagan Revolution, and the Contract With On America...

[in_cog_ni_to]

62. Couldn't agree more. Wellstone would have LOVED us though! Remember what Dave Obey called us?

"LIBERAL IDIOTS" and I suspect that's what they ALL think of us.:( Well, fuck them. I'm sick of their lies. They work for us, we don't get PAID for what we do for them, but they get paid for what they DON'T do for us.. We donate money to their campaigns, we work our asses off for them, we donate hours upon hours of our time and they have the NERVE to be "annoyed" with us? They need to just get the hell over it or call THEIR party something different. Maybe.... "The Wimpy Dem Party?" "The Dems Who LIE Party?" "The non-Progressive Democrats?" "The New Conservative Democrats?" "The anti-Liberal Democrats?" "The Anti-Progressive Democrats?" "The we lie to our supporters to get elected and when we get elected don't do what we promised Democrats?"

They sit in those hearings, allow the General and the Ambassador to blatantly LIE, they KNOW they're lying, yet anti-war activists who wish to have their voices heard are kicked out of the hearing and not allowed to say a damn thing....ESPECIALLY the TRUTH. Something is dreadfully wrong with our government and those politicians are enablers.:(

[tom_paine]

92. Vichy Democrats. It just feels...so...right. Especially considering what we are up against

n/t

[rucky]

67. I don't have to tell you, Tom

the conflict isn't Left & Right - it's straight up Class Warfare.

the only people who don't realize that are about 90% of the victims.

[redqueen]

69. They may be victims, but they're not suffering.

I'm starting to think Nader was right... until those people are personally hurting, they won't bother thinking too much about it.

[rucky]

70. they ARE hurting...

and blaming their own shortcomings.

Come to my post-industrial wasteland of a town and have a beer with a down-on-his luck ex-factory employee. Self-esteem is about I--I Yeah Big, and blame is laid on everybody (including bad luck) but who should be blamed.

[redqueen]

71. Oh yeah... the "blame the victim" game is very popular.

*sigh*

Hopeless...

[tom_paine]

88. No, pal, you don't have to tell me. And I happen to be a HUGE supporter of FDR Capitalism

But your conclusion is correct, as I see it.

You know what bums me out, and I'll bet the socialist/communist wing of DU would excoriate me for saying it, is that the Bushies discredit the whole institution of capitalism, but I do not believe that all Capitalism must lead to BushPutinism or some other form of Tyranny.

I still believe FDR-style Capitalism is the way to go. But so much of the "FDR" infrastructure has been parasitized and disassembled, I fear we could never rebuild it fully, especially since we as a nation are bankrupt...in more ways than one.

[leftofthedial]

73. there are rulers and the proletariat

"parties" is a quaint notion that no longer reflects any actual ideological split

[redqueen]

75. and many of the proles are busy blaming each other for the shit

and most of those are doing fuckall to change things

[tbyg52]

78. It's the corporations, stupid!

(I'm trying to get that adopted.... ;) )

[Disturbed]

80. Is America A Plutocracy? by James Glaser

Is America A Plutocracy? by James Glaser
July 16, 2002


Plutocracy -- Government by the wealthy; a ruling class of wealthy people

I would like to say no, but any sort of look at Washington will tell you different. Our current administration is pretty much made up of wealthy corporate executives, both friends of the President and his father. Almost the second coming of the first Bush Administration in some areas. Wealthy, what is wealthy? Up here in Northern Minnesota, those that have their farm or home paid for are about close as we get to wealthy.

There are a few local business men that we think are wealthy, but none of them have that extra ten thousand dollars that George Bush wanted, to get a picture taken with him as he toured Minnesota, one day this week. Vice President Dick Cheney was reported to make 37 million dollars his last year before running for office. So up here he would be real wealthy. Most of those in the Senate have a few million. Paul Wellstone, our Senior Senator's best paying job ever is his job as a Senator, so he would not be wealthy. Many of the people that work for our government in Washington, would, just with their government jobs, be wealthy with that pay up here. It does depend on where you live when we determine wealth. We have clean water, no crime, peace and quiet, and good soil with few pollutants. So I guess we are wealthy too.

No amount of money could buy those things in a lot of places in America. It is a stretch to believe that those in Washington can have any understanding of what life for those at the other end of the economy is like. Millions of Americans are just one pay check away from the "wolf." Something like 40 million Americans have no health insurance. Think about this. If you work for a city, county, state, or the federal government you have a 99% chance of having really good family health coverage, but don't even think about universal health care. That is because those in government have no way of even understanding what it is like not to have coverage. Also there is some really big money involved and that big money is not about to let everyone in a a total group plan.

Even in America to have "haves" you must also have "have nots." If every one had money then the rich would not have the power that they have. Wealth has nothing to do with effort in America. In our system a person can work his butt off and just get by, others do little, but because of circumstances that maybe they had nothing to do with, they are very successful. Your dad is President, Senator, Congressman, Judge, or maybe just a big shot, you get the breaks. In a real war you won't have to go. People can and do make their way from the lower levels to the top, all the time in America. That is what America is all about, but don't kid yourself for one minute that we are on a level playing field. America is the same as any country now and in the past. Those with money run the show. That goes for Government and business. Those with money tend to look out for their kids and their friends kids first. That isn't wrong, but the way it is.

Our President is a real prime example of this. Nothing against him, but if his father wasn't President, his dad's friends didn't pony up money, George would be a MBA in middle management. America's system works, but wealthy run the show, however they don't have a "lock box" on that wealth. As long as some Americans can crawl their way to the top the system will stay in place. Yes we have that Plutocracy, when it comes to running America. Unlike other countries America still has that small door that some can enter to get to the top. Sure hope they don't lock it.

http://www.jamesglaser.org/2002/p20020716.html

[riverdeep]

87. Actually

"Our President is a real prime example of this. Nothing against him, but if his father wasn't President, his dad's friends didn't pony up money, George would be a MBA in middle management."

I always pictured George as maybe making his way into middle management at a used car dealership after a lifetime of being there if he had to make it on his own. He wouldn't have an MBA, and actually, his name might be on that wall in Washington cause he couldn't have gotten out of that, either.

[Individualist]

89. Were it not for Pappy Bush and all that money, Pissypants would have been in prison

long before now.

[John Q. Citizen]

81. For a much more nuanced and in depth look at the same issue, read this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3512143&mesg_id=3512143

Read the transcripts of the conference call linked in the post. It is long but extremely informative on a whole number of levels.

[eridani]

82. The Repub elite don't like their base much either

However, they are really different from Dems in one highly significant way--outwardly they coddle their base, invest a lot in the electoral ground game, and most importantly do everything they can to hide their contempt. It actually required investigative journalism by David Kuo to even bring it into the open. In contrast, all the Dem official talking heads demonstrate how much contempt they have for union members, LGBT, feminist, health care and other activists loudly and often.

[tom_paine]

90. Well said and true, eridani

Sadly so.

[riverdeep]

85. odd relative

To them, we're like the odd relative that embarrasses them at social gatherings. But there's a lot of us, and getting odder all the time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. Welcome to the club, I came to this conclusion over a year

ago

I could add to this the intense sense of social isolation and anomie that pervades the "base" and it is part and parcel of any authoritarian state

[kohodog]

96. These are indeed difficult times

I feel betrayed by our corporate representatives. The media consolidation has not helped either. Many Democratic pols seem taken by the recent media and administration propaganda on Iraq. Wow, Next July we'll be back to pre-surge troop deployments. We're leaving Iraq! So much spin, so much bs.

But I will vote, even if we are reduced to the lesser of two evils. I will also speak out.

This sucks. How do we effect real change? Is it possible?

[L0oniX]

101. Let the repukes win the 2008 presidency so they can stay stuck with their Iraq mess.

Mean while we can vote to increase the dem count in the senate and congress. Let them clean up the Iraq pile of shit. By us not winning 2008 we would force them to take the full blame for all of it! Why should we (dems) end up with this war in our hands? Do you really want Hillary to take this on?

[tom_paine]

103. Sorry, CAN'T GET BEHIND THAT!

:thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:

[sendero]

111. I can...

.. seeing as how HRC is barely a Dem at all, I don't give a rats ass whether she wins or not. The practical difference between her policies and the policies of a potential Rep president are nil. She will not end the war, she will not curb corporate influence on our lives, she won't do jack.

Let ghouliani clean up this mess.

[Time for change]

104. I was thinking very much along the same lines

I think that as long as money plays such a prominent role in elections, and as long as the news that most people get is virtually monopolized by a small group of very wealthy people, that's the way it's going to be.

We have to find a way to break the vicious cycle.

[autorank]

107. They have contempt for us. We are "nothings" to them, a mere inconvenience.

Why wasn't there real reform to address the lousy voting systems in this country?

Why were the Democratic alternatives mired in techno talk and bull shit?

Why nothing on Iraq, Katrina, health insurance, labor union rights, 911, impeachment?

We are nothing to them.

[tom_paine]

108. Why are they so all-fired ready to move the PRIMARIES up to WINTER?!?

You know, two inches of ice on the ground is a great way to increase voter turnout and participation, isn't it?

:silly: :silly:

[autorank]

112. "don't take a weather man"

But you are a good one;) Sure does and it favors money, "The Money Party," - who has the most money earliest gets the big boost and shoots over the top. In addition to encouraging turnout by doing this in very bad weather, they're helping push big money donations early to have a say in who wins. Then we're stuck with whomever whored around enough to get the money to win. Great system.

The one thing they didn't want was a Florida wild card. The January primary in Florida gives them headaches. They're afraid enough for Dean to have offered some real incentives for Florida Democrats to back out of it. The deal was done at the end of the legislative season by Republicans but there were key Democrats going along with it. Now the Florida Democratic Party, a disaster area, is back peddling for "caucuses" and wants to turn the primary votes into nothing when it comes to delegates. It's either that or DNC won't seat a full delegation, excluding those chosen through the primary.

Democracy on the march!

[JanMichael]

109. Please, please, PLEASE, post your compass results!

I know the percentages but please post the individual scores and the results.

That shows how far to the Left DU is despite its centrist owners!

[tom_paine]

122. Ok, I took this once before, now I'm off to take it again

Finished. The results:

Left/Right Economics: -5.62
Liberarian/Authoritarian: -4.15

[JanMichael]

194. No, no, no! I meant your (it was you?) all of DU compass.

You (I believe you) posted a scatter map of DU'ers in a thread which I thought should be its own thread it was that far into the SW quadrant.

[Vidar]

110. K&R.

[unkachuck]

117. does this mean....

....we won't be getting single-payer Universal Healthcare?

'The Democrats are sickened and disgusted by their own Base.'

....which Base?....us or the Corporate Base?

....ever watch the Today show and see the people out on the street looking in the window, seeing all the inside action, waving their arms and placards but never really being able to get close enough to connect with that action?

....Corporate Rule, my boy, Corporate Rule....makes you feel like a foreigner in your own country....

[Pierzin]

119. the change we need is drastic and the change we need is now!!!!

Day after day I ask myself, "how can this be happening?" Day after day this insanity continues and yet I read all these blogs and wonder how can it continue and no one is doing anything about it.
Demagogues need to know they can be replaced. Politicians should know their own actions have consequences. Senators should have lesser terms. Here in Washington they serve 6 years. !!!! Six years!!! That is far too long, IMO, for anyone to serve without consequences for their actions.
Thank you for pointing out your very eloquent, angry piece here, for I beleive you are right.
But were politicians EVER working for the working poor? Many of our Founders were the elitists of their day, after all. Washington was one of the richest men in America, ex.
It is REALLY frustrating to see the very un moralistic GOP not standing up to a leader who has lied us into a war, by taking advantage......

[ShortnFiery]

120. Well Put. K & R.

[4_TN_TITANS]

124. 'they'd better not start acting like Walter Mattheau..'

bwahahha...

Red nosed, holding beer, laughing!

We da' Bears....

[tom_paine]

136. But Mattheau taught them to play to their abilities, even those abilities weren't great

Mattheau showed them how to make the best out of what they had.

More importantly, Mattheau wanted to WIN. He was a friend to that team because HE wanted those schlubs to WIN as much or more than they did.

PLUS, he went out and found someone (a couple someones, who could PLAY).

Gawd, it feels :silly: to go deeper into a Bad News Bears analogy.

[JDPriestly]

127. My congressman, Xavier Becerra of L.A., California

is the closest thing to Mr. Smith that we probably have. But, although he is a wonderful person and an excellent Congressman, and although he votes "right" on most issues, he is not a wavemaker. He is not pushing impeachment although the voters in his district have let him know that we want impeachment. He is the assistant to Pelosi and not without power. He is a pretty ordinary guy. His wife is a doctor, but he is by no means super wealthy. And he represents a relatively poor district. Check him out. Otherwise, you are absolutely right. Congress is a rich man's club. You generally can't get in the game unless you are a multi-millionaire.

[Greyhound]

130. Your namesake understood this quite clearly. He was probably the most influential person

of his era (although Ben Franklin was more famous) and railed against the ruling class. If only he hadn't come out against the delusion of religion he might have been able to exert that influence to head off the dangers he saw coming that led us to the perversions that have caused all of the problems we have seen up through today.

We came so close to eliminating the ruling class in this nation.

[tom_paine]

143. Well, that and his "Letter to George Washington" kind of hurt

A two-page rant written in the heat of the moment after Paine had been a prisoner of the Jacobins in France (guy could never just keep his mouth shut and let injustice pass, no matter how much it hurt him personally, he couldn't seem to make himself STFU if his principles were at stake) for a year and mitsakenly though Washington was behind the inept effot to free him (he wasn't).

If I recall correctly, the Letter, published during Washington's Presidency started, "Washington, thy name is hypocrite."

[lostnotforgotten]

131. Well Duh - Why Do You Think So Many Of Us Are Anti DLC?

Because they openly despise and loathe us!

They want us to be good little boys and girls, with Ward and June Cleaver smiles, merrily wiling our hours away in the suburbs while they screw us out of life, liberty, and and the pursuit of happiness behind our backs.

Is this not obvious?

[Maryland Liberal]

133. I know that most DUers dont want to hear this...

but I have felt this way for a long time. We need to outlaw politcal parties. Too much pressure is placed on Senators and Congressmen to vote against their conscience.

[LWolf]

134. No argument here. n/t

[mdmc]

147. ibtl

we are still a little less evil then the GOP :shrug:

:kick: + R

[KG]

148. somehow, i see ralphs hand in all this.

:rofl:

[tom_paine]

155. Let's get one thing clear here: I despise and will never forgive Nader for 2000!

DES-PISE.

Even though I still wonder if the Bushies would have stolen the 60,000 more votes (or stuff an equivalent amount) if Nader had not made his disastrous run, I can still never forgive him for his ego, and his blindness to the bigger picture.

Good enough for ya'?

:--|--:

[Kolesar]

167. Tweedledee and Tompaine

[tom_paine]

184. Good one! LOL

:rofl:

I prefer to think of it as a if burglar has broken into my house. What do I do, metaphorically-speaking?

I grab the nearest baseball bat or other weapon and start searching, prepared to defend the house and my family from whatever may be there.

What I don't do is sit down in an orgy of self-analysis and examine whether the bat I picked up, has a long enough grip, is big enough to defend myself if the burglar is 6'8" and 380 lbs...

...because if I do that, aside from being contrary to common sense, it is just as likely the burglar will find me while I am still looking for the EXACT CORRECT WEAPON with which to defend my self and finish what he started..

That's the metaphor. The Bushies are the burglar. The Democrats are the baseball bat which We the People have to defend ourselves, within the political system.

Well, if we lived in a nation in which the traditions of fighting for freedom was more recnt, I would say a General National Strike would and SHOULD be the bat we wield at this late date.

Good luck organizing one of those...

[The Backlash Cometh]

149. So true.

[Liberal Dose]

156. I've thought this for so long but could never find the right words to expess it. I feel as though

they really do not like me.

[happygoluckytoyou]

158. IT IS A BATTLE OF INCHES

THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT THERE ARE RICH AND POOR---- AND THE RICH GET MORE..... END OF STORY... RUSSIA...CHINA...AMERICA... ALL THE SAME ON THAT... AND ALWAYS WILL BE THAT WAY... THAT IS WHY WE HAVE CHOICES, WHY SOME WORK HARDER TO BE RICH... TO GET MORE

GIVEN THAT...


THE MOOD OF THE GOVERNING BODY MOVES BY INCHES... NOT SINGLE ELECTIONS... THE GRASSROOT SUPPORT BEGINS TO SWAY... THE NEXT LEVEL UP SHIFTS... ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP... SEEMS TO TAKE 8-10 YEARS TO SWING

2006 WAS THE FIRST LEFT-WARD MOVEMENT IN 8 YEARS.... GOOD FOR US

2008 SHOULD BE ANOTHER.... BETTER FOR US


THE POLITICIANS SHOULD BE IN THE TOP 1%..... THEY ARE THE LEADERS.... WITH THE OCCASIONAL EXCEPTION, THOSE WHO ARE THE STRONGEST SHOULD LEAD.... THAT INCLUDES GORE, THAT INCLUDES NANCY P......

IT DOES NOT MEAN THEY STARTED OUT WEALTHY.... IT MEANS THAT BOTH PARTIES WANT TO SUPPORT PEOPLE WHO HAVE MADE THEIR WAY TO THE TOP... IT IS WHY WE RESENT GEORGE... BECAUSE HE WAS "GIFTED" HIS POSITION ON 3RD BASE... HE NEVER LEARNED TO HIT A TRIPLE.

I AM AS LEFT AS A PERSON CAN GET IN MY BELIEFS, BUT I KNOW AS WELL AS ANYONE ELSE, I WANT MY LEADERS TO HAVE A HISTORY OF SUCCESS, THE BEST OF EDUCATIONS, CONFIDENTS WITHOUT ARROGANCE, ETC.....

AND THAT, BY DEFINITION MEANS THEY WILL BE AMONG THE TOP 1%

[happygoluckytoyou]

160. OH.... AND TO ADD TO THAT....

AM I HEARING THAT 74% AMERICANS ARE NOT REPRESENTED BECAUSE THE $ LEVEL OF OUR LEADERS IS HIGHER ?

HOW ABOUT THE MENTALLY RETARDED.... DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD ELECT A FEW RETARDED PEOPLE TO REPRESENT THEM (W DOES THAT FOR THE GOP)

----- THE MEASURE OF A GOOD LEADER IS HIS/HER ABILITY TO -----> UNDERSTAND THEIR PEOPLE AND FIGHT FOR THEIR NEEDS
--------------------NOT NECESSARILY TO BE ONE OF THEM IN EVERY ASPECT....

DOES RICE REPRESENT BLACKS BECAUSE SHE IS BLACK? JUSTICE THOMAS? BRIAN GUMBALL (SORRY BUT HE IS THE WHITEST BLACK GUY I EVER SAW) ?

DOES LIEBERMAN REPRESENT THE JEWS?

SO AT LEAST THE GOP HAS A LARGE REPRESENTATION AMONG THE BATHROOM BLOWJOB AND PAGE PORKING PUBLIC...

[tom_paine]

185. No, you are not hearing my point correctly, and please stop shouting.

You shouted: "AM I HEARING THAT 74% AMERICANS ARE NOT REPRESENTED BECAUSE THE $ LEVEL OF OUR LEADERS IS HIGHER?"

That is quite a simplified Straw Man you've created there, and my point, which I thought I made by adding lots of qualifiers and parenthetical statements, is a good bit more nuanced, and no, it is not that the Leaders make more $$$ than the rest of it, not even close. Of course they make more $$$ and that has nothing to do with what I was trying to say.

In that context, I cannot directly answer any of your shouted statements, because they are built upon that incorrect first assumption, and were sarcasm in extremis besides.

I though that I made it clear in my OP that I allowed for, and I actually think it is probably so that, there are OTHER reasons which the extreme disconnect between the Democratic Leadership and it's Base exists beyond money.

The ONLY reason I brought up money was to point out that increasing wealth inequality/maldistribution made the Rich richer, and thus even further from the Middle Class, was a pressure that likely contributed, too.

So, NO, you aren't hearing what you thought you heard. Not even close to the oversimplified thing that you thought you heard.

And the rest of your post is a nonensical, sarcastic, sneering non-sequitur, that does not deserve a reply

[Romulox]

162. The Democrats lost their way after a conscious decision to jetison labor

in favor of upper-middle class professionals.

[OzarkDem]

189. Organized labor is also calling the shots for Dem leaders

Didn't you see the post the other day about how labor leaders in Florida aligned w/ Rahm Emmanuel in 2004 to force some Dems off the ballot in favor of a GOP'er who quickly converted to D?

Its a myth that organized labor is liberal, many of their leaders are very conservative.

[Beelzebud]

163. Spot on. I'd like to disagree, but I simply can't...

[Cleita]

173. Our litmus tests, the polls, aren't very accurate in measuring

what the majority, mainstream American is really thinking and is really behind politically. If there was a scientific and accurate way to measure this, I think you would find just how wide the disconnect is between the leadership of both parties and the rest of us.

[mdmc]

193. I think that there are polls out there that show this disconnect

but the parties dont care - they do what corporations want - the public expects this and is resigned to it.

[BenDavid]

196. What the leadership in both Houses

have failed to do is EDUCATE the american people about why they cannot pass a bill on the matters of troop reduction and a time line for said reduction....
They, or I should say Harry Reid needs to tell the people that republicans hold up a bill and force it to a cloture vote and that means instead of the majority vote winning the democrats have to have 60 votes to close debate and then bring it to a vote....Then explain to the folks the president will VETO whatever bill comes out of both houses and then it will require 67 folks to over ride said veto....295 in the House...

Reid needs to do this as well as every candidate needs to make it known to the people they are speaking too and also anytime they are before the cameras when asked to appear on a talk show......

Ben David