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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 02:15 PM
Original message
Why I'm not against pornography
Edited on Tue Aug-21-07 02:16 PM by lynyrd_skynyrd
I watch it.

But I don't objectify women, either. In fact, to say porn objectifies women is to ignore that there are men in the videos too, unless you're talking strictly about lesbian pornography. And besides, does male gay pornography objectify men?

I remember posting about this a while ago, but since it's back in the spotlight here, I'll say it again. This is not an either/or issue. Like so many other issues out there, it is not black or white, but gray.

Some pornography is exploitive. There is no question about that. It is that type of underground "Gonzo" pornography that we as a society must deal with - The type where the woman is not a 100% willing participant for whatever reason. (In that case, it ought to be called rape, not "porn".)

But other pornography is not exploitive at all. These women are doing it because they choose to, not because they have no other options, not because they are abused, not because they live in poverty, but because they enjoy it and/or it pays well. It is insulting to those women to claim that they ought not to like having sex. That's some 18th century thinking and is quite demeaning.

I don't know why so many are either 100% against or 100% for pornography. Can't we find a middle ground? Can't both sides admit that there is the good side and also the bad side to pornography?
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. Pornography does objectify women, but so does the Venus de Milo...
and every other depiction of women. And, of course, men are also objectified.
And I have no objection.
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
27. Actually, the Venus de Milo might be said to objectify ...
the gods.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. True, but a hot god
:)
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Rockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
34. Not gay porn :)
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
2. I've been thinking about this
since the other thread exploded. I too enjoy adult material, some of which is presently called "porn." I also enjoy erotic literature. The x-rated stuff is right along with the other nonsexual media/subject matter I'm interested in: music, politics, live theatre, movies like LOTR, TDS, and so on. It's simply another aspect of me.

I think the desire to watch sex is completely natural and frankly nothing but the display of simple curiosity. "How do other people do it?" "Do I look like that when I do it?" "Would I enjoy that? Why or why not" Has there ever been one civilization in the history of humankind that didn't have depictions of sex acts or "raunchy" talk about sex? The question is not whether to eliminate it, but how does a society provide a safe and healthy outlet for such activity?

For me, I enjoy it the same as I enjoy other entertertainment. I enjoy if it I can tell that the performers are also enoying it. I've seen people who looked like they were really into it. I've seen people who looked uncomfortable, for multiple reasons. I've also seen people who looked like they were phoning it in. No really. None of that, just like a bad movie at the localplex, was remotely interesting.

What does positive sexual material look like? Maybe "porn" isn't the right word for it.

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Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. yep
I bet more people feel this way but don't admit because of the stigma attached. I watch porn occassionally with my hubby and I have no problem with it. Most of it is just consenting adults doing what consenting adults do. I have heard about some stuff (they talk about porn on Howard Stern often) that is more about arousal through humilation or demeaning behavior but it is such a small part of the market. But like you said, it's varied why toss it all out because of some bad ones? Shall we deny ourselves "The Departed" because it exists in a medium with "Larry the Cable Guy"? So many anti-porn opinions come from people that don't watch it but only read articles and books by anti-porn people based on how it operated in the 70s. People need to lighten up. Sex is natural and pretty silly if you look at it clinically. We are all just animals when you get down to it.

:hi:
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. That's so true
Aren't we the only animals who feel a need to mate in private?

Everybody else just does it right in the group anyway.
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Well said and as a married woman, I agree.
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. Reasonable questions --
"In fact, to say porn objectifies women is to ignore that there are men in the videos too..."

Women, as a class, are not in a position to objectify men.

"And besides, does male gay pornography objectify men?"

Yes. It is men objectifying other men.

"But other pornography is not exploitive at all. These women are doing it because they choose to, not because they have no other options, not because they are abused, not because they live in poverty, but because they enjoy it and/or it pays well. It is insulting to those women to claim that they ought not to like having sex. That's some 18th century thinking and is quite demeaning."

Who said that women ought not like having sex? I think everyone (who wants to) should be able to enjoy sex.

But ask a woman who is doing porn, or who is a prostitute, if she'd choose it over another non-sex work job where she could make the same money, and most would rather not be doing sex work.

And for the record (this is just a general comment, not directed at the OP in particular), I would like to clarify that I've never came out and said, "We should censor all porn" -- what I and others have said is that the current porn industry, under patriarchy, in general, hurts women.

And the article I posted a couple of days ago is about certain aspects of pornography, not all pornography.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. .
Edited on Tue Aug-21-07 02:54 PM by truebrit71
"women as a class cannot objectify men"...

Oh really?

:eyes:
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. I have to agree with you
'Women cannot objectify men?' How so?

And maybe this question is PI, but what, really, when it comes to sex, is *wrong* with objectifying the object of one's lust? I can only speak for myself, but I'm fairly certain that for all humans (and as I man I'm sure this is true for all males), sex at some point is purely *about* objectifying the person you're having sex with. Sex is basically an animalistic pasttime. Even when you're having a highly romaticized interlude, at some point it gets down to the primitive pleasure of penetration, which is very lizard-brained. At that point, you're not thinking about what a wonderful person your partner is, you're focussed on sensation and body parts causing friction, none of which involves conscious thought. So if that's not a form of objectification, I don't know what is. Porn merely serves to jump the viewer quickly to that point.

Perhaps women have less need to objectify their sex partners, but to say that don't ever do it or "can't" do it is, I think, just wrong.
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Question for you
"But ask a woman who is doing porn, or who is a prostitute, if she'd choose it over another non-sex work job where she could make the same money, and most would rather not be doing sex work."

Are you sure? I'm not. It's not for me personally, but I'm not certain many of these women enjoy their work. I've never personally asked any sex workers this question though.
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Read "How to Make Love Like a Porn Star"
by Jenna Jameson. She talks about the choices made by not only herself, but by many other stars she has known well. Many choose the business over equally lucrative options. Some don't, but many do.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. That's what this entire discussion has been about
Opinions and assumptions presented as facts. Black-and-white assertions versus the gray reality of the issue.
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. It's the men they have a problem with
I've had the opportunity to talk with a couple guys who make porn. They both said the same thing; there is no shortage whatsoever of women willing to work in porn as evidenced by the number of amateur productions--people who are so willing to get into porn that they will do it for free.

They do have a tough time finding guys; the qualifications are a bit stiff. (sorry, I had to)
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Withywindle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #20
37. Makes sense to me.
Exhibitionism is one of the most common fetishes. Lots of women have it - look at all the women and couples who put up naughty pix of themselves all over the internet with no money changing hands at all. Gotta love the internet - great way for exhibitionists and voyeurs to make each other happy. (I'm probably more on the voyeurism end, which might be why my favorite kind of porn is gay male; the one kind of sex I've never experienced and can't ever. I like to watch. It would be rude to actually ask, y'know, gay friends. :blush:)

I rather admire women who can do porn - I'm too dorky and self-conscious really, but otherwise, I wouldn't think it's such an awful thing. And man, porn stars are ATHLETES and really ought to get more credit for their sheer physical capabilities. I can't do a lot of that stuff - certainly not that much of it!

Imagine a world where sexual performers were given the same respect that, say, football players were. I honestly can't think of a real reason why they shouldn't be. Some people like to watch, and others like to perform. Why is this inherently wrong?
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Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. they are asked frequently
Edited on Tue Aug-21-07 03:21 PM by Marnieworld
Many of these women are on the Howard Stern Show and every single one of them profess their love of their work. Many of them just simply love sex, started having it with many partners in their own life and just gravitated towards it. Perhaps some are just playing the part but I refuse to dismiss all of them- it's insulting to imply that they can't actually feel this way and make choices in their lives that work for them.

And there are magazines and award shows and PPV talk shows where they all express their opinions and are profiled like non-sex actors. It's has become just naughty fun and not so shameful. There's almost a mainstream porn business where these "stars" clearly speak their minds and reveal their personalities. They travel the country performing and sign autographs like other celebrities. It's not like they are hidden away anymore. You can find programs about them on E now for chrissakes. And many of these women become entrepreneurs marketing merchandise or going behind the scenes to become producers. It's a multi-billion dollar industry and they are cashing in doing something that feels good. Sure it's not for me but I doubt that most would trade it all for some desk job somewhere.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
38. so they're being exploited by being well paid????
you seriously said ask a woman who is doing porn, or who is a prostitute, if she'd choose it over another non-sex work job where she could make the same money, and most would rather not be doing sex work.

????

because that is sorry the single most idiotic argument for anything i've heard all day

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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
6. DUers are talking as if objectification is a bad thing.
In the rare cases I look at porn, I certainly am not doing so to establish an emotional connection with the woman (or women...lots and lots of women) portrayed.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. There was a study not too long ago
that reported that men, contrary to folklore, were looking at women's faces, expressions, while watching sex, not merely body parts.

I'll see if I can find it. BRB.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #6
24. Exactly
Somewhat as I said above. Nature didn't design human sexuality to promote emotional connections, it designed it to stimulate species reproduction. Objectifying a sex partner on some level makes it easier to complete the process. Emotional connections would actually slow procreation down, on a species-wide level. The appeal of porn is a reflection of this because it obviates all need for that emotional connection.

Hey, it's nature, I'm just sayin'. I didn't design the process.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #24
63. Women will run from your like the plague
It's not nature to objectify that person; it's nature that requires the closer connection to match the physical connection. Random one nighters with people you don't know isn't going to be the best situation for procreation; nature is way more complex than you're saying. Entire societie and cultures are built around it, so it's way more than just the physical act.

Rare is the woman who just wants the guy to have sex with her to she can get pregnant and forget all about him and deal with it herself. Where have you been for the past six thousand years?



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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #63
70. LOL, well, fortunately for me...
I don't care if women run from me like the plague since they are not the objects of my sexual desire. Possibly that's the reason I have a more objective view of this process.

Anyway, *IMO*, your ideas about nature requiring an emotional connection between two people are wrong. I agree that culture/"society" plays a part. Nature apparently made humans want and/or need to congregate together, primarily, I would imagine, for mutual protection. From that need comes culture and civilization, and this also helps promote species survival. It's possible that emotional connections are an evolutionary advance that ensures that we do congrgate.

However, there's nothing there that makes me believe these connections have to be between a single man and a single woman, i.e., romantic love. In a lot of societies, men and women basically lead separate lives, and in those cases the connections are basically those of the household/clan commonality, protector/provider and protectee/child-rearer. You might think this primitive/backwards/unprogressive, but there's no reason it has to be; we in the civilized West just think our way is the most advanced, but our nuclear family/romantic love model doesn't always work very well, clearly.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
10. there are many different types of porn. also adult woman have a right to do with their bodies
as they feel fit, i think the age of entrance into porn is too young.

porn is a complex issue with many sides.

i love the lesbian porn shar rednour makes.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
12. it ain't nobody's business but my own......
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
14. why is it commonly accepted that porn exploits women, but not men?
I got to thinking about coal miners. They frequently don't have much in the way of job options. So if I had to chose between going home from work with my ass a little sore and $2000 in my pocket, vs making 20 bucks an hour and being squashed under millions of tons of rock, I'll take the porn set any day.

And anyone who thinks that porn is humiliating has never worked in a gas station.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. i think because women porn stars are MUCH younger than male porn stars
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usaftmo Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
66. I think the age gap
is due to the fact very few men are "up" to the task. Regardless of the money/setting/etc. if I knew I was being filmed it would definitely shake me up.

Women willing to be in porn movies are a dime a dozen.

Overall it's very difficult for a man to be in porn movies but once he's in he'll be doing that for a long time. I remember Ron Jeremy and Peter North in movies back in the 80's, and both of them are still involved! They are twice the age of some of the ladies they're working with.

I agree with you, but there are valid reasons why the women are a lot younger.

Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now. Please don't interpret this as flame-bait...just voicing my thoughts.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. yeah, cuz when someone pumps gas into your car they have to let you come on their face. n/t
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. ...
:spray: :rofl:
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. The only reason they don't is because they are too busy
ordering the gas jockey around like he's their personal slave.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. where do you live that there even IS a "gas jockey" ?
and, isn't that there JOB, to service the customers? Why don't they just get a different job, maybe in porn! :rofl:
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. "service" the customer...up to a point
Many years ago, before self-serve.

At least once a day there would be the jerk whose only opportunity to exercise any power over anyone else is the teenager at the gas station. Barking orders, making insulting comments, name-calling, and the more miserable the weather, the more they wanted done for their 40 cents a gallon. And since "the customer is always right" you have no choice but to stand there and take it.

Believe me if I could've gotten a job in porn when I was 17, I would been on that in a heartbeat!! :D




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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #29
39. it's probably new jersey EOM
,
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. DUZY!!!
:rofl:
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
19. K&R n/t
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
25. Women Objectify Men Too...
I remember Daytona Beach during Spring Break and men would hold up signs rating women in their bathing suits as they walked by on a scale of one to ten...I never participated because as even as a young man I knew it was messed up and mean... Want to know the ironic thing...Women were doing the same thing...

Go to any club, gay or straight... It's the "beautiful" people who are getting all the attention... That's just life...
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #25
46. And not just physical appearance
Check out a personals site and look at all the WsM adds asking for a "White Knight" or a "Prince Charming". What, exactly, do you think that means?

Trust me, the interest in a man's personality drops dramatically as his bank balance increases. Some of these women come right out and say they're looking for a partner who's "generous", but I tend to view most of these "Prince Charming" desires as the female equivalent of "No Fat Chicks".

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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
26. Oh, I'm against pornography, especially political pornography --
that's why I don't watch Faux News.

;-)
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. That's one type of porn
we can all agree on! :D
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shireen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
33. depends on the type porn
Child Porn -- the sick disgusting creeps who force kids to do it should be burnt alive.
Bestiality -- I don't think the animals are consenting to it ... it's animal abuse.
Porn depicting cruel sadistic violence, where men or women are physically and mentally hurt, is unacceptable.

Otherwise, I'm indifferent. Actually, porn's pretty boring. :boring:
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
35. I'm against WAR PORN (great song, by the way):
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
36. Personally, it's this "gonzo" porn that bothers me
but I have to say I'm really bothered as well by the reaction of people when you say negative word #1 against any porn at all.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
40. I'd be willing to bet that a great many women are pimped
Edited on Tue Aug-21-07 04:30 PM by smoogatz
into the porn industry and are not participating in it with full agency. I'd be willing to bet, also, that many of the women involved are pretty heavily drugged to keep them compliant: no agency there, either. There's a social justice issue at work here, whether we want to hear about it or not.

That said, there's also a first amendment issue; porn should be legal and its content unregulated as long as everyone involved is an adult fully capable of giving consent.

What's the solution? My own choice is not to put money into the pockets of those who sexually exploit women.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
41. Ok one question
Edited on Tue Aug-21-07 04:48 PM by undergroundpanther
Where in porn are men treated as women are treated?

Where is the heterosexual man with a dick crammed in every orifice possible gagging on the penises and eating the jism of at least 5 other men splashing on his face as he ties not to gag and show disgust and smile for the camera and pretend not only he likes it but wants more??? Where is the man being forced to submit to any women, not just wearing symbols of authority as in a fem dom? I ask this because There was an experimental porn film I read about where the gender roles usually seen in porn were reversed. It upset the men the women they felt vindicated..I don't remember the movie's title and right now I cannot find a link to the reactions..When I find it I will send it.

Erotica is nudity sometimes but it is not abusive or degrading to any of the persons in the picture.Erotica I respect it is artistic tender sensitive.It has no domination or subjugation implied in it.

Porn is not anything like erotica.Porn is all about exploitation and why do I say this? Because just look at the power relations depicted in porn, ignore the sex for a minute and focus on the "relationship" set up in the picture,look at the meaning it shows behind the sex act,and what is being done to whom for creating what effect in YOU..(besides sexual arousal) what other things does porn evoke.Do you ever ask that?

Porn I admit makes me feel threatened,And for a good reason.

As I kid ,pornographic pictures were taken of me. They were done by a pedophile neighbor, Bruce Ekenrode and his wife Leah(one of the few times I will ever say bitch and mean it. I hate the word bitch but for Leah she IS one).

I got drawn into this mess because their son was kind to me.We were friends. It all started as kindness.I played with billy in the tree fort,played matchbox cars in the sandbox in his yard at first. Billy's mom was so nice she handed out popsicles to all the neighborhood kids as her pedophile preacher husband sat on the porch talking to us. Than one day I got invited inside billy's house. The molestation and rape did not begin that fast, this asshole earned my trust first,We played in Billy's house and I admit before the molestations I thought Billy's father was awesome.He taught me about religion(and I didn't believe it but didn't have the heart to tell him)He seemed like the father to me,The father I always wanted.

He really took efforts to convince me cared about my life, my feelings..than after he earned my admiration and trust,he destroyed it all..

Billy he was a victim too , one year or so younger than me.He was the once who turned the filmstrips of Apocalypse Ekenrode used to terrorize me.and as a backdrop for his sick sexual abuse of me...I once in a while wonder if Billy made it out that home alive or with his heart intact.

For this asshole's sexual abuse and disregard of my humanity , I have spent over 20 years in therapy to try to heal from the traumas HE caused me,he chose to force upon me. Yeah for this piece of shit,I had to "fake it for the camera" like many women in porn say they had to do too..I did that faking to avoid being hurt by him, or him killing my pets,or my best friend and cousin might be killed and he even threatened my whole family might be killed.

So I did what I was told I sucked the dicks and made the poses even though inside I was numb and terrified..Every time I see porn I see Ekenrode's "culture" etched in the faces of the fuckees forced to sell their bodies..be they male or female

How many of the women and younger men in that "industry" are threatened to perform or else? How many of them are addicted, desperate or homeless? Do you know? Can you talk to the person being fucked senseless in a mock rape in a magazine ? NO.

How many people in porn pictures have faced sexual abuse and are re-traumatizing themselves trying to come to grips to what happened before they were involved in porn? How many of the women are held captive? How many are refugees and prisoners of war being exploited? Do you know?

Tell me can you tell by looking at porn who is being victimized off camera? NO!you can't by a glance. Because you need empathy for a victims potential danger and emotions to do that..

So.. Is it ethically OK with you if women might and most likely are facing horrific threats and abuses off camera in the making of porn, is it ALL RIGHT for them to be exploited and trapped and even murdered for YOUR desire to get more eye candy to jerk off to with your impoverished imagination? Is that OK and is that FAIR and Just or even HUMANE? To just ignore the inconvenient truth that not all porn you see is consenting,with people who are over 18, or even ethical or humane?

The camera does not show the ugly side of the reality of the porn industry at all. It does not show the criminal relationships in all it's various layers that make up the "business"that interact with each other..in a web of exploitation and profits.
http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfi...


This shit I went through went on for about 4 years. It made no headlines. Ekenrode threatened me and sometimes he gave me hush money. It messed up my head.

My cousin was whom I told first,when she saw me pull a wad of cash out to go walk to the 7-11. She asked how I got all that money.I couldn't think up a lie she'd believe fast enough.So I told her the truth.Before I told her I made her swear to silence because I believed Ekenrode might kill her, my cat,my dog, or my mom..I defended the perpetrators secrets and was going to lie because I was COERCED.

But my cousin did the right thing she told my mother and my bedroom was next to the kitchen I could overhear my parents walking up clinking coffee cups and the cheesy radio.So I overheard it when she told my father what I told my cousin.What was his response..?

What is wrong with her? meaning ME. He blamed ME for being abused.
And what do some men do when they see a rape case they BLAME her!
She worse a scanty dress She got drunk, The Just world hypothesis strikes again . Victims ask we help and see it from their point of view and sensitize ourselves, perpetrators ask nothing but we forget about it and go on. My mother in this situation sided with the pedophile partially,she forbade me to go inside Billy's house. She did nothing to stop Ekenrode she did not report him,or beat his brains out with a baseball bat..

And that attitude of tolerance of abuse through denial and by-standing and the evil hearted blame of me by my father, fits perfectly with his sickening sexist pattern of denial of me as a human being, considering he raped me when my mom was taken away in an ambulance hemorrhaging from her uterus.I am so very glad my father is DEAD.

The Ekenrode asshole as far as I know is still on the lam from the FBI.I hope like hell he is not getting away with abusing other little girls.

Last time I knew where he was was in St.Petersburg Florida. I called the police in Maryland around 1996 and because the crime occurred before 1976 I cannot prosecute him.I hope like hell someone else has done so.

So when I see porn ADULT porn I cannot help but identify with the fuckees. Alot of women who hate porn are identifying with the fuckee too. Women are the most numerous population that patriarchal culture fucks over the most,along with gay men,trans-people,non whites and children.And My heart feels for the person being used,Because I have tasted exploitation and helplessness myself and it wounded my soul and I do not forget or forgive that choice evil people made to use my body as an object, invade my boundaries, and defile my sacred person-hood..

That feeling of anger and sadness is more present than seeing staged sex acts "arouse" me. I do not get anything good inside from porn except feeling pain that reminds me why I hate this hierarchical trauma based culture such as ours is with my whole heart..

Unlike most men,
I cannot escape the look in the woman's face of suppression of her own horror unfolding in the 'scene's ' you find arousing.
Some men(and I applaud every one of them) are sensitive enough to see this look of a wounded soul too.And because they know what I am talking about they hate the porn INDUSTRY and tend to be vocal against rape and stand up for radical feminism.These men are the REAL MEN.MY ALLIES.Allies who hate abuse enough to educate themselves about an INDUSTRY built on exploitation,to be vocal against what many men think is OK..The porn many men deny has an UGLY side to it the camera does not reveal.

I see a similar wounding ina woman's eyes in porn scenes. I see her pain expressed in subtle signals only one with the sensitized heart can see.You can see it too, either through facing trauma which erased the fantasy of a just world forever,so you become angry enough to want justice,or you can become sensitized by being an object being humiliated and devalued. That can produce sensitivity and a desire for justice lacking in desensitized people..The other way to become sensitized is to CHOOSE to be. That sensitivity comes by sympathizing with the ones who are being exploited and listening and FEELING what they feel by proxy when they speak of the traumas in their lives and show you their wounded hearts..

For being one of the privileged classes it is easy to blind yourself to exactly how that privilege translates into abuses.
To overcome injustice those who are not wounded MUST become as outraged as those who ARE wounded about the abuse our culture rationalizes and tolerates..

Porn just makes me filled with rage and sadness.And sometimes I even feel a fierce hatred twords men,I don't like hating men.But I must admit sometimes I do when I see porn. I am a FtM trans-gender for shits sake,I truly DO NOT hate all men,But despite the contradictions, I hate until the emotions fade and get under control inside.They never really go away, they are just controlled by my conscience. And if under enough abuse I can choose to let that rage come forth and defend me and other people being victimized.

For I never want to become an exploiter of others vulnerabilities or become like a privileged abuser of power like the people who ruined my life for so long were.
Ironically when I was around 21 men thought I was"hot". I didn't like being seen that way. Their highly aggressive over sexualized commentary was threatening to me.Constantly men would shout at me about my body if I was walking anywhere. I felt really unsafe. That is when I began to carry a boot knife and it stopped two potential rapists... Every month it seemed I got offers to become a stripper to model,and I turned them down.I knew where that kind of"kindness" got me before.I was not desperate enough to take their offers of 1000 bucks a night too. I was in a halfway house for psych clients.I had food, shelter and help. If I didn't have these things and I was hungry/addicted/homeless and feeling that threatened would I have taken that tainted kindness? I don't know.Maybe I would have and I would be used too.

And this is so very scary considering 1 in 4 women are raped before age 18. They all carry trauma inside.Some never get therapy some never see abuse as abuse because to them abuse is NORMAL.
There are sex industry survivors speaking out trying to heal.They exist.
http://www.sexindustrysurvivors.com/main.htm

So,Erotica? Erotica is not porn it is art.Erotica I can look at and feel no rage or sadness.
In Erotica people smile they look playful and they are as beautiful as art can be. There is a VERY CLEAR distinction between erotica and porn.One must be sensitized to the fuckee to GET IT. If you are not sensitized than you are blind to the real life consequences of the porn industries existence.
Here is vintage erotica. The woman here is in her underwear she has none of that pain in her eyes. And she is beautiful.
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Drum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. An extremely thoughtful post.
Few people would contribute so much, and very very few would ever traverse the terrain you you have had to deal with in your post. I appreciate your writing, and the thoughts behind it. I am also sorry that you were put into that awful situation, robbing you of so much in your youth (and afterward, from the sound of it. Your courage is to be applauded!
:thumbsup:

(and PS...so true about the distinctions between "porn" and erotica.)
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. Thanks drum
I dunno if you are a guy or not doesen't matter,really because you are an ally. You get it.
:pals:
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Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. thanks for this
I am so sorry for what you went through. No one should have to endure that. Your pain jumps off my monitor. It takes courage to share like that. I have been fortunate to not have had any experiences like that so my perspective and experience of it has been different than what you describe and I hope that my minimizing of porn doesn't make you feel minimized indirectly. I do not blame you at all to have your thoughts about the subject filtered through such a profound, life-altering trauma. I applaud you for working on healing yourself and I hope that someday you find the love and peace that you deserve.Truly. :hug:
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #44
52. Thanks marnie world.
Edited on Tue Aug-21-07 05:23 PM by undergroundpanther
I don't know if I'll ever find peace. But I can speak truth to abusers of power,I can use my wounds to sensitize people until they look at how their choices help create abuse and injustices in others lives and even sometimes their own .I speak of my past here because I know I will have no chance at finding peace at all..if I say nothing. If I hide my bleeding fire in fear.

Unless I do my part,whatever it may be and get some courage use my voice,use my art, walk my talk,stand up,defend those who are too wounded or too terrorized by the intolerable to speak their own voices yet, If I don't encourage them,defend them,help them, and if I don't tell the truth of my own experiences with honesty and with anger at the intolerable,causes..and try to show WHY things are as they are, in such a way so it cannot be shoved aside,buried or denied without it causing at least some people to ask themselves those thorny ethical,social and personal questions they'd rather run away from that keep this culture so tolerant of abusive behaviors and choices.

The culture of make believe and the just world hypothesis has to DIE.This died for me years ago. For some fortunate enough not to grow up traumatized,THEY are who need to see the truth of abuse enough to DO something about it..too.They need to see how our culture exploits humanity and to ask who is benefiting from all this abuse of power? Every change in this culture always begins with EACH OF US and with what we do or say concerning our choices and others' well being. Do we care or not? Do we feel or not? Do we stand up, or by stand? Do we condone4 evil and do nothing so it prevails, or, Do we feel the suffering around us strongly enough in our hearts to say STOP the ABUSE! NOW.

I know there are people out there who have been through traumas that are horrible and my heart goes out for THEM My words are for THEM,because so few speak this way about the pain that touches almost all of us in the dark recesses of we'd rather not think about..so publicly,.So many women ,children,gays,trans-people,poor people,addicts,sex workers, All the social outcasts, scapegoats,poison containers,"losers", all those people who are not dominant in one way or another who were abused,were hurt or exploited or whom abuse is happening to right NOW,they are shattered and silenced just to give an abuser pleasure,money,sex or power-over.

They need help in every way, they need help finding their voices again too.So I'll be like Dr.Seusse's Lorax. I'll speak for the victims and help them be survivors with my own past and my pain,when they have had their tongues ripped out..I will not stand by anymore and I will do my best to not let denial and the fear of what will people think of me,and cultural shame tactics used in service of abusers win.I do this because I CHOOSE TO and because I HAVE TO. Because I care.I can't help it.I love.

And this culturally sanctioned game of abuse or be abused ,the abuse of vulnerable people's bodies, minds, hearts,sacred person-hood,the systemic excuses to continue wounding their very being, and destroying their capacity to love and feel and care it has got to stop.NOW. And so I speak to try to stop it.Because if I cut off my voice however clumsy or wordy or offending, how could I live with myself after what I have seen and been through and sought to ask why and found some answers,? I can't by-stand anymore .For if I tolerate the intolerable,I will definitely have no chance at finding any peace within or in this life..

Like I said justice will come for people like me when enough people who are NOT wounded are outraged as those who ARE.
And maybe than I will begin to feel peace on Earth,and I won't be the only one..
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. I just want to hug you
:hug:

I am so very sorry.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #45
53. Back at cha!
:pals:

Don't worry when I speak like this, it is strangely enough it eases some of the pain.For awhile.
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. I understand. I was abused as a child as well (though not to the degree you were).
:hug:
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Beausoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #41
59. As a woman who enjoys porn, your post has made me question myself.
Thank you...sincerely...for sharing your story.

I learned from your post.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #59
68. When someone has been abused that way--
--images that might not push your fight or flight button can be really traumatic to someone else.
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Exiled in America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
42. "Not black or white, but gray" -- yup. Can't even objectively *define* pornography
and the line between that and art / erotica.

The supreme court had to say, "I know it when I see it." Welp that means to me it ought to be left up to individuals to use their own judgment in terms of what is and isn't appropriate in this matter.

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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #42
55. You are focused on the CONSUMER end
NOT the PRODUCTION INDUSTRY.
Forget the damn pictures content for a minute what I am asking is you focus on is the INDUSTRY and to question where your pictures come from.

That answer is why I hate porn. It's the INDUSTRY stupid.The Nasty Business of human exploitation to meet YOUR demands for???..
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Exiled in America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #55
64. human exploitation?
Really?

And of course, this is well accepted, sourced and primarily agreed upon fact yes?

Oh wait - no, its nothing close to that. In fact there is massive diversity of opinion on how the porn "INDUSTRY" should be characterized.

"The Nasty Business of human exploitation" is YOUR OPINION of it. It is not fact.
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MattSh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #55
67. Fact is, the INDUSTRY is hurting these days. Why? Amateur videos.
<snip>

The online availability of free or low-cost photos and videos has begun to take a fierce toll on sales of X-rated DVDs. Inexpensive digital technology has paved the way for aspiring amateur pornographers, who are flooding the market, while everyone in the industry is giving away more material to lure paying customers.

And unlike consumers looking for music and other media, viewers of pornography do not seem to mind giving up brand-name producers and performers for anonymous ones, or a well-lighted movie set for a ratty couch at an amateur videographers house.

<snip>

The barrier to get into the industry is so low: you need a video camera and a couple of people who will have sex, Mr. Fishbein said.

<snip>

But this is a far cry from the price and the volume of free X-rated content available on some sites. One site operated by Adult Entertainment Broadcast Network has 200,000 videos, many of them submitted by amateur videographers, said Scott Coffman, the companys president.

We get input from all over the world Japan, Germany, Brazil, Mr. Coffman said, noting that even he was surprised by the number of contributors. Its the same thing as YouTube, where youre wondering, How many people out there have cameras and are filming this stuff?

From here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/02/technology/02porn.htm...

People have always used isolated incidents to demonize a whole class of people or whole industries, and the porn industry is more likely to draw such demonizations because of the "passion" revolving around the issues and people's hang-ups regarding sex. Has there been some exploitation? Yes. Has some people used isolated incidents of exploitation to paint the whole industry as a cesspool? You bet. And is there some exploitation in amatuer productions too? You bet. But I have no doubt that there are so many willing performers, male and female, that no one HAS to be exploited.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
47. I've tried being against pornography
But it's generally better when viewed from a distance.
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Guava Jelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
49. I love porn!!
love it.....
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MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Yeah, but do you like all the junk e-mail afterwards?
Ha-ha... I'm only kidding... I mean.... how would I know about THAT?
:blush:
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Guava Jelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Thats what spam filters are for
:D
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
56. Lynyrd skynyrd
Edited on Tue Aug-21-07 05:48 PM by undergroundpanther
There is exhibitionists yes they exist..but they are not so numerous as there are people being used by the porn industry.

My main reason for hating porn is it is an industry with ties to organized crime, human trafficking,and other exploitative things that damage humanity.

My second reason is by looking at porn you can never tell if the people in it are being exploited.A fake rape scene might very well be a real one. How can you tell?

The porn industry is very profitable easy money.So crooks cannot resist it to make money..In war-zones women are recruited by pornographers preying upon their situations and poverty they say come to america we will help you get a job working as a secretary or a cook and then they become enslaved and are sold to..pornagraphers and pimps,to strip houses and to private individuals. This happens more than you think and the porn industry is impossible to police considering it is GLOBAL. In America we may have laws about consenting age. But in Thailand and India they do not have laws like we do and the porn pictures can be bought from these places cheap and re sold,as long as the seller says nothing to the buyer about the ages of the people in the pictures and they look old enough the porn seller is off the hook..Don't ask don't tell..Denial and it is disgusting.

Then there is the dehumanizing aspects of porn invisible to those who have never been dehumanized that way. . You don't seem to see it in porn clearly and you seem to think it is normal too.You haven't been hurt enough by exploitation to feel the need to draw a boundary there and see the differences between erotica and porn yet..And that is due to being desensitized and ignorant of what the industry is and how it operates.. And that is YOUR issue but your lack of boundaries and ethical holes in what you tolerate really does endanger other people and this is why I hate porn.

Here are some people who have been in the sex work and porn industry and survived, listen to them, empathize and feel for THEM put yourself and your opinions aside a moment to understand what they are saying. Only when you see this problem and see it from the PRODUCTION and INDUSTRY end, instead of the CONSUMER end, you will understand why I HATE porn.Until you look at the true cost of porn you will not see the damages.And you will not see the damages from a CONSUMERS point of view. I am asking you to question what you think is ok and normal and step out of your comfort zones where you have weak boundaries. Can you do that?
http://www.sexindustrysurvivors.com/main.htm
http://www.sexindustrysurvivors.com/main.htm
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. I just want to add
that I really don't give a flying fuck if there ARE women who enjoy participating in the production of pornography, the vast majority of which is nothing but the treatment of women as objects to be used, in ways that any woman recognizes as humiliating and degrading.

Whether they enjoy what they're doing (and without going into whatever reasons they might have) is of the most supreme irrelevance to the question of whether what they're doing is tolerable.

The fact that a woman chooses to participate in the victimization of women by portraying a woman as enjoying humiliation and pain and degradation is no reason whatsoever for me to refrain from pointing out that the activity and industry she is involved in are intolerable in a society that has an iota of concern for women's well-being.


Nonetheless I am absolutely with you on the point about it being impossible for consumers of pornography to tell, just it is impossible for consumers of other sex trade workers' services to tell, whether they are watching or using women who have been trafficked (although we mustn't discount the wilful blindness that seems to be endemic among the consumer population). As long as the demand exists, someone will be there to make a profit by filling it, and it is obvious to a garden slug that some of the supply will be generated by trafficking and other form of abuse and exploitation. The only way to stop that phenomenon is to choke the demand.

But hey, let's not expect the boys to accept any responsibility for their own fucking behaviour.





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DIKB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
57. Here's A Good Point
By following statistical trends, they have found that as viewing pornography online has increased, the number of rapes has decreased at essentially the same rate.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
58. why I don't give a shit why you're not against pornography

Hah, like I'll be wasting my time explaining it to someone has every opportunity to inform himself, if he doesn't already know, and just doesn't give a shit.

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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #58
71. You're slacking
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Rosemary2205 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
60. Human Rights Watch estimated 70% of porn involves use of sex slavery.
They are talking worldwide of course. Wish I had saved the link. I believe they estimated 25% of porn produced inside the US involved women held against their will and forced to perform sex acts on camera. But MUCH of the internet porn Americans have access to was produced outside the US.
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Exiled in America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #60
65. which is why normalization and regulation is important.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
62. As a First Amendment matter it is untouchable
But as to needing it, that signals an emotional disturbance. What is it with Americans and reality? Can't they get a real sex life?

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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 02:29 AM
Response to Original message
69. Why I'm not: Because what consenting adults do with their own bodies is their own damn business.
Edited on Wed Aug-22-07 02:34 AM by impeachdubya
All of that, of course, is predicated upon the twin concepts of consent and adults- consenting adults meaning these people are all over 18, and they chose to do whatever- take their clothes off or screw in front of a camera- on their own volition.

It does NOT mean that, as the anti-abortion crowd tends to do to women who get abortions, that the people involved in porn can somehow be infantalized from a distance, reduced by illogical, self-validating arguments to blubbering masses of humanity who obviously aren't capable of consent because, after all, we don't approve of the choice THEY make, so they must not know what they're doing.

Beyond that, some commercially available porn is what I would consider bad. A certain percentage does come across as containing elements of misogyny (beyond, of course, the misogyny "inherent" in any depiction of m/f heterosexual sex that the all-hetero-sex-inherently-oppresses-women crowd invariably sees). A lot of it is dumb. Some is erotic. Different strokes and all that. But you know what? If there's a lot of music out there that sucks, is it more productive to rail against the sucky music, or make some music that doesn't suck? If people don't like the quality of a certain product, they should try to make something that is better. That probably means there is a market for it. I'd suspect there is probably a market out there for more intelligent smut.

But the bottom line, for me? As long as everyone is a consenting adult, I don't think it's any business of would-be moralists, nanny statists, censors, control freaks and anti-sex warriors to tell other people what they can and can't get off to.
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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
72. on edit: decided not to walk into the buzzsaw...
Edited on Wed Aug-22-07 10:48 AM by FormerRushFan
on edit: decided not to walk into the buzzsaw...
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