Boy, is there a christian left -

[Joe for Clark]

I do understand these past few years we were "taken over" by a "christian right" voice.

I know. I watched and cringed and wondered what the hell was going on.

A lot of us did. I guess we were slow - america is slow sometimes.

You know, they did manage for a time to make us double take reality - they really did.

But you know what happened - at the end of the day? - We cringed too much. We compared notes.

There was a song - we had to learn - "What so ever you do to the least of my brothers..."

Remember??

I think the major problem the "christian right" is about to run into is that we DO remember.

And we believed it then and we believe it now.

And unfortuantely for them - we REALLY compared notes.

Joe

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

1. Peace be with you

And all of us.

[DemoTex]

2. Peace of Christ

Always

[HappyWeasel]

5. Well yes. May Christ be with you.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

3. yeah.

they need to have the Sermon on the Mount thrown in their sanctimonious faces on a daily basis.

they can't handle it . . . too revolutionary.

[HappyWeasel]

4. Taking back religion from the barbarians will be an amazing

thing for all of mankind, including those who do not believe in Christianity or Judism.

[GoneOffShore]

6. Good luck with doing it.

From a lapsed Unitarian.

I have always known that there is a Christian left but despaired that their voices were outshouted by the televangelists and their ilk.
My Quaker friends here in Philly and some Mennonites have always understood the true message of the Gospels.

[Joe for Clark]

17. Don't despair now -

Most of us remembered. And they can't shout us down anymore.

It is too strong now.

God be with you.

Joe

[hyphenate]

7. True Christians

aren't the enemy of anyone, including those of us who don't share the same gods or beliefs. The real enemy is the religious right which has become a fearmongering hegemony, intent on seizing control over the vast majority of citizens in the US. They are not really religious--they are after power, control, influence and the wealth they would control if they are on top of the heap.

They do it with the implicit assent of so many who have been extorted into silence, believing that they are sinners because they can't quite follow the impossible rules set up by the religious right--a set of rules that the leaders on the religious right give out with the admonition of "do as we say. not as we do."

[frogcycle]

8. its just a matter of degree

once you decide that god is on your side and you have the right to tell everyone else how to live ...

http://www.godhatesfags.com/fliers/feb2007/20070204_emilian-sanchez-funeral.pdf

[Joe for Clark]

14. How is that -

Because some nut job posts a flyer??

That was not god that posted that flyer - just some nut job.

And because he may be an idiot, doesn't meant you have to be.

I can do this - I guess - cause my grand uncle is a true goddamn saint - and get away with it.

But I'll tell ya - god does not care what you find sexually attractive - not at all.

If there is one - he loves you because you are you - that straight forward.

Please, do not taint us with such morons - and that is exactly what they are, people that promote such things.

Every human being is special. That belief is what being christian is all about.

I am proud to be such a christian.

joe

[frogcycle]

19. not exactly "some nut job"

The Westboro Baptist Church is a whole lot of nut jobs. They don't just "post a flyer"; they disrupt the funerals of as many of our fallen soldiers as they can. And they claim to be just as inspired by their god as you do by yours. They, too, are proud of doing the lords work.

http://www.godhatesfags.com/

[salin]

27. most in his 'church' are family members

by blood or marriage. Nut-jobs - and disgusting.

[Joe for Clark]

34. What ever they are inspired by - it sure isn't god.

And I really don't think they know what they are proud of.

I guess you are right though - some nut jobs cluster together.

One time I got a flyer put on my windshield - and it so pissed me off - I cancelled my appointments and went to have a "talk" with the priests at my parish. My idea of talking went like - You file suit against these people, you do it now or I will never give money to this church again - I was pretty mad.

That was the day I learned about cross burinings on my grandparents lawns way back when.

It was the day I really came to terms with the fact there really are nuts out there - that that really is a part of america. Not our best point.

But there is another truth too - that that view of reality really is such a minority view. That we all deal with "reality" on a very personal level and that the majority do control things at the end of the day.

I appreciate your post - it is heartfelt. I hope you do understand - I meant word for word what I said. And I wish the best for you.

Joe

[frogcycle]

21. and another thing

I am not "tainting you" with such morons. They taint the very air they breathe and ground they tread. But ignoring them does not get rid of them. They commit emotional assault on the families of fallen soldiers, and the vast majority of Americans go on about their daily lives not giving it a second thought.

It is time the so-called christians who claim to be so compassionate and loving stood up to them.

Here is the list of the funerals they are disrupting this week:

# WBC will picket Funeral of Army Capt. Mark T. Resh - at 8:15 a.m., Fri., Feb. 9 - at Shisler Funeral Home, 2119 Washington Ave., Northhampton, Pennsylvania.

# WBC will picket Funeral of Lance Cpl. Emilian A. Sanchez - at 9:15 a.m., Sat., Feb. 10 - at Indian Burial Ground, Santa Ana Pueblo, New Mexico.

# WBC will picket Funeral of Army Spc. Alan E. McPeek - at 9:15 a.m., Sat., Feb. 10 - at St. Elizabeth Ann Seton Church, 8650 N. Shannon Rd., Tucson, AZ.

# WBC will picket Funeral of Army Sgt. Milton A. Gist Jr. - at 10:15 a.m., Sat., Feb. 10 - at Austin A. Layne Mortuary, 7302 W. Florissant Ave., St. Louis, Missouri.

# WBC will picket Funeral of Marine Sgt. Alejandro Carrillo - at 9:45 a.m., Sat., Feb. 10 - at Sts. Peter & Paul Catholic, 515 West Opp St., Wilmington, CA.

# WBC will picket Funeral of Cpl. Richard O. Quill III - at 12:15 p.m., Sat., Feb. 10 - at Woodlawn Funeral Home, 660 Thompson Lane, Nashville, Tennessee.

# WBC will picket Funeral of Navy Hospitalman Matthew G. Conte - at 10:15 a.m., Sat., Feb. 10 - at Grace Church, 4808 Tallmadge Rd., Rootstown, Ohio.

# WBC will picket Funeral of Army Pfc. Tyler Butler - at 10:15 a.m., Sat., Feb. 10 - at Trinity Presbyterian Church, 110 Maine Blvd., East Liverpool, Ohio.

# WBC to picket York Suburban Senior High School - at The Laramie Project fag propaganda play performance - at 6:45 p.m., Sat., Feb. 10 - at 1800 Hollywood Dr., York, PA. And, WBC will also picket on Sunday, Feb. 11, York churches

# WBC will picket Funeral of Army CWO Cornell C. Chao - at 8:15 a.m., Sat., Feb. 17 - at Rose Hill Memorial Park, 3888 Workman Mill Rd., Whittier, CA.

# WBC will picket Funeral of Army Pfc. Michael C. Balsley - at 9:15 a.m., Sat., Feb. 17 - at First Southern Baptist Church, 15503 Usher St., San Lorenzo, CA.

# WBC to picket the beginning of same-sex fag marriages in New Jersey - at 12:01 a.m., Mon., Feb. 19, 2007 - at Trenton, New Jersey

# WBC will picket Funeral of Army Spc. Nicholas P. Brown - at 9:45 am., Wed., Feb. 21 - at Ft. Bliss Sage Hall, Gateway Blvd. & Monroe Ave., El Paso, Texas.

[rebel with a cause]

23. These guys are hated by everyone that comes in contact with them.

Here in the mid-west the media was passing them off as anti-war protesters at first, and then that blew up in the media's faces because the religious leaders they interviewed called them for what they were. The group is far from being anti-war with their calling for the deaths of anyone they disagree with. Now they are known as a cult and zealots that are not welcome in our towns. Churches here give out interviews on how they disagree with this group and do not want to be associated with them in any way and condemn their actions. There has been an attempt to educate people to what this group is and to stop them from having the opportunity to carry on their disruptions. Many of the areas around here have passed laws that prohibit their demonstrating at funerals and other ceremonies. And this has been done with the support (perhaps it would be better called the demands) of religious organizations.

I say this as a person that does not believe in organized religion, but one who is willing to give someone credit for what they have done right.

[Joe for Clark]

9. They didn't exactly extort us - it was more

like a shock wave. It was like - they must be right, because there was such a wave - you know - I do not explain this too well.

I can look at this now - and I look back and that moment in time where I got the big picture. And it goes back to that song - that never did leave me. That "What so ever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me." It was a catchy tune. I can sing it now, all these years later - it was that catchy.

It will surely haunt this "christian right" - it should.

Peace to you also.

Joe

[kath]

35. Ahh, yes, from guitar Mass, back in the late 60s, early 70s.

"whatsoever you do, to the least of my bro-o-thers, that you do unto me" . Can't remember the rest of the words, and there were also one or two other "Guitar Mass" songs that were sung all the time that I liked.

The problem with the ReligiousReich is that they pretty much totally ignore the New Testament - they're all about all the Old Testament fire-and-brimstone crap, and actually *against* the love, peace, charity and tolerance that JC taught.

[Joe for Clark]

37. I still do remember that song - it was really good.

We had to memorize it for first communion - in the 1960s.

Couldn't agree with you more about your new testament observation.

There are SO MANY of us!!!

Joe

[kath]

38. Actually, I'm an atheist now. But think the Sermon on the Mount is really

good stuff! (along with the other social teachings of Christ) And I hate what the ReligiousReich has done to our country, and their astounding hypocrisy.

[Joe for Clark]

39. I don't have so many good days with the catholic church

sometimes - but I sure give them this - When they said, loudly - that whatever you believe, if you live your life in a good way - you will be accorded such treatment in the end. Karma.

And man, I challenged them - on purpose - to make sure they really did hold to that.

There is really just one christian church - denominations exist so they can raise money to support dated hierarchies - that is all.

And if you believe in this - then your basis for doing so is in the gospels - and if your basis is in the gospels - you better be prepared to rationalize your behavior with Luke, John, Mark and Matthew.

That is why they will fail - that simple.

Joe

[niyad]

10. my best friend, who died of cancer 18 months ago, was, in her words, a LIBERAL evangelical christian

the congregation to which she belonged is one of those that actually practices the messages of the bible about caring for others, looking out for each other, etc. During the illnesses of her and her husband, the congregation was an incredible support system. During one of her surgeries, her minister even called me to make sure I was doing okay--even though I am not one of theirs, not even a christian. These are the people I think of as christians, not those insane people up the road from me here in fundieville (fungus and new life--yes, dobby and the hag (well, not the hag anymore, since he is CURED, and desperate to find a new flock to fleece)

[Joe for Clark]

18. Good post -

I think good way to look at it.

A good point of reference, anyway.

I hope all is well with you my friend.

Joe

[burrowowl]

24. Long Live Liberations Theology!

Spawned by John XXIII and persecuted by John Paul II! May a new John XXIII come to be!
My condolences to you for the loss of your friend.

[tuvor]

11. You reminded me of this graphic, posted by a DUer some time ago.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

12. wow.

i would love to hear * try to react to that. murderous thug...

[Joe for Clark]

16. Indeed - the song is based on the gospel of Matthew.

He was the "tax collector" apostle.

We had to learn that song when we went thru CCD to get communion.

That picture you have - it is genuinely upsetting to me. Sick - this man is no christian.

Joe

[aaronbees]

22. Such a powerful quote....

Thank you!

[redwitch]

13. I saw a good bumper sticker yesterday

"God wants spiritual fruits
NOT religious nuts"

[Joe for Clark]

15. I am absolutely certain that is correct.

I bet my life on it.

joe

[Jonathan50]

20. I found this survey on religion in America quite interesting

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2006-09-11-religion-survey_x.htm

The United States calls itself one nation under God, but Americans don't all have the same image of the Almighty in mind.

A new survey of religion in the USA finds four very different images of God — from a wrathful deity thundering at sinful humanity to a distant power uninvolved in mankind's affairs.

Forget denominational brands or doctrines or even once-salient terms like "Religious Right." Even the oft-used "Evangelical" appears to be losing ground.

(snip)

Though 91.8% say they believe in God, a higher power or a cosmic force, they had four distinct views of God's personality and engagement in human affairs. These Four Gods — dubbed by researchers Authoritarian, Benevolent, Critical or Distant — tell more about people's social, moral and political views and personal piety than the familiar categories of Protestant/Catholic/Jew or even red state/blue state.

More:

[rebel with a cause]

25. the religious right is basically

Calvinism without the work ethic or many/any ethics for that matter. B-)

If I offend, I apologize.

[TheBaldyMan]

28. Calvinists are nothing like that!

please don't smear every christian with the same brush as the one you use on the 'religious' right-wing.

Those bible-thumping bigots and hippocrites are not christians. They are apostates as far as central christan teaching goes.

[rebel with a cause]

29. I didn't mean to smear anyone.

But the original Calvinist believed that certain people were pre-ordained to go to heaven and everyone else was doomed. Those that were pre-chosen would be known because of their success and those not chosen would be known by their failures/poverty. This is something that this neo christian right wing believe. If this is not a similarity, then I don't know what would be.

If Calvinist have changed, so be it. I studied the original organization not the modern day one.:shrug:

[Dorian Gray]

31. That's because there is no modern day Calvinist organization

There are Christian denominations whose theological doctrine are inspired by Calvin (Presbyterian, for example), but even those churches have fallen far from the field that Calvinist inspired theologians (John Knox) created. The Anabaptists have devolved into what we know as the Quakers, Shakers, Amish and Hutterites. (I believe.) The Reformed Churches (primarily inspired by Calvin followers) existed separately in each nation. In the British Isles, there was the Scottish Reformed Church, which evolved into the Presbyterianism. There is the Dutch Reform Church, what I believe to be the national church of Holland. There is the Swiss Reform Church. I believe there are also Hungarian, German, and other national reformed churches, as well.

Most of the Calvinist doctrine in these churches has been watered down, though.

[rebel with a cause]

42. I didn't think there was

But after a night of no sleep and not feeling too well, I was not in the mood to do any more research or etc. I had breakfast to cook and people to get up before I finally could sleep from pure exhaustion. Thanks for supplying the needed information. I really apreciate it.

[Dorian Gray]

43. I love comparative religion...

though I am by no means an expert. I found this topic interesting reading. :)

[TheBaldyMan]

32. np Calvinists have been in a state of constant reformation since it started

The Calvinist tradition has developed into some of the most progressive and liberal churches there are.

There are conservative minorities within this but for the most part they are pretty cool.

[pamela]

26. I remember back in 2004...

just a few weeks after the election. I went to visit my parents, both good Christians, the kind that walk the walk and don't talk the talk all that much. Both voted for Kerry. A friend of mine, also a good liberal Christian, stopped over and we were just setting there shaking our heads about it all. It was so depressing. I hated how the media made it sound like all Christians voted for Bush. None of the ones I know, at least not the ones who live by the New Testament, voted for Bush.

I love the stuff that Jim Wallis and Sojourners has been doing.

[Festivito]

30. Money is a powerful draw, and many have fallen for it.

If a rich person pulls you aside, you listen a little more intently -- don't you? Doesn't just about everyone?

Think tanks made money-draw and art form. A military Industrial Complex makes think tanks and money.

So, churches UNSPOKEN-LY avoid the self when talking about sin.

Now churches SPOKEN-LY talk ABOUT OTHERS not TO others, about sin.

And for the self-righteous feeling superior to OTHERS, people will pay. Call it a donation. It sounds better than paying for a self-inflating show. And, a church that makes money is a "successful" church -- right?

Too many measure their success in dollars.

[GeorgeGist]

33. Perhaps if they weren't ...

Christians if wouldn't have taken so long for them to take note.

Be careful when you claim 'we'.

[Joe for Clark]

40. Oh - definately WE - this is not about being carefful.

Tell me, how long did it take you to figure out you may be in AMT now?? Shocker, huh??

We ARE slow, all of us. Goes along with being american, I think.

Those people, this christian right - they used techniques against our better judgement - conscious, vile techniques. Maybe we took a little bit to figure it out - we did - but we figured it out in the end too.

I don't think you appreciate the backlash coming.

Joe

[dogday]

36. There is a Christian Left and they are more

concerned with good deeds.

[Joe for Clark]

41. Tell me - what was the christian right concerned with -

good deeds??

Joe

[dogday]

44. The ones everyone speaks of are more

concerned with shoving religion down everyone's throats and that is not what Jesus had intended...

[Dracos]

45. Jesus Christ

was a liberal way ahead of is time all about loving people not judging people trying to help people and keeping the government and organize religion in a constantly examining themselves and not liking what they saw they shot the messenger or in his case crucified him.If he was alive today they would call him a radical socialist.