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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 02:10 PM
Original message
"Grandma Fights Off Attacking Pit Bull, Saves Grandkids"
"Grandma Fights Off Attacking Pit Bull, Saves Grandkids"

Friday morning, Maria Turner was walking her two grandkids to the school bus stop on Old Hickory Boulevard near Central Pike in Hermitage, as she does on a typical school day, when a pit bull came loose and began chasing after her six-year-old granddaughter.

Turner said the dog jumped on her first, forcing her granddaughter to the ground.

The dog then bit at her granddaughters head, scratching her ear and yanking her hair.

Turner had no choice but to step in and pry the pit bulls teeth from the little girls hair.

Even her broken shoulder didn't slow her down.

http://www.wkrn.com/nashville/news/grandma-fights-off-a...
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. Glad they are ok. Here is an interesting website...WHICH of these is a pitbull?
Edited on Sun Aug-19-07 03:00 PM by uppityperson
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. One of the smaller, less threatening looking dogs.
#16 of course, but I've known a couple of pits. Sweet dispositions, not aggressive.

I also have a friend with a dogo; also very sweet, non-aggressive, and even turned tail and ran when attacked by a stray recently. Of course, she was well socialized and trained as a pup.

There are dogs that are more likely to be aggressive than others without the love, training, and socialization that every dog deserves. That's a human fault, not a canine fault.

I'm glad this grandma was able to defend her grandchildren.

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Cobalt-60 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
27. Got him on the first try
I won't give it way, but here's a hint from the 1970 ,movie "Patton".
"Look at that nasty faced son of a bitch, born and bred for combat."
There are some fine looking dogs there.
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #27
40. I got it on the second try
we have a lab/mastiff mix that get's mistaken for pitt all the time .

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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. geez
Edited on Sun Aug-19-07 02:57 PM by frogcycle
There is nothing in the second amendment about a right to keep vicious animals. Time to crack down.

I used to try to listen to the American Staffordshire Terrier / American Pit Bull Terrier groups who continue to insist that they can be loyal, loving pets and should not be "discriminated against."

As I understood it, although the breeds had been developed long ago to fight, now they were no more a vicious killer than, say, a St. Bernard would be compelled to head out into a blizzard.

The recent exposure of dogfighting activity changes all that. They continue, to this day, to be selected for fighting. The more aggressive and vicious, the better. Unless you are getting one with impeccable documentation that it is some ten generations away from any fighting dogs, you are knowingly harboring a potential time bomb. The very idea of a Pit Bull Rescue organization is appalling. And I don't know whether ten generations is enough. There are shelties and border collies that are removed many more than that from herding sheep that automatically try to herd whatever they can.

The gun lobby slogan "guns don't kill people; people kill people" does not apply. Pit bulls kill people. Guns don't get up and break their lead and go out and ambush six-year-olds.

While I acknowledge that many, many of these dogs have remained docile and owner-friendly while living to a ripe old age, and it would be hard to take away someone's pet of 6 or 8 years in some sort of "ethnic cleansing" the fact is that "STATISTICS reveal that in the US almost 8 million dogs and cats are euthanized annually because there are no homes for them." link There is no earthly reason for someone to "rescue" an unwanted pit bull in favor of the 22 thousand other potential choices that will be euthanized THAT DAY! Ok, not all are desirable, and not all are nearby, and you might hate cats. So its maybe only several hundred to choose from. Choosing the pit bull and knowing that means a cocker spaniel and a beagle and a golden retriever and a dachshund and hundreds of mixes will die by the end of the day is not just stupid; it is irresponsible. Doing so because you have psychologically married yourself to that breed, made it part of your self-image is selfish, stupid and irresponsible.

Lots of dogs end up homeless simply because irresponsible owners tired of them. But a reasonable proportion proved not to be what the uneducated owner wanted. Or, worse, proved to be defective. Of pit bulls available to "rescue" I have a feeling a significant percentage had already proven to be risky.

My daughter "rescued" a jack russell that turned out to be a head case. The quote from the person who turned him in to the shelter was something like "didn't fit in with the family." well, they are very active and excitable, and she assumed it meant his typical-jack temperament just didn't suit them. Only after she'd had him a while did she learn he is a psycho nutcase that would not fit in anywhere.

My other daughter rescued a pit bull. At age two it killed one of her other dogs, in the third vicious attack. She had partitioned the house to keep them apart, and a visitor opened the wrong door. Being stubborn, she tried to keep it and the remaining dog, but within a month or so it got free and attacked. She finally had the sense to have it put down.

While animal rescue is a great thing, and I support it, not ALL animals should be rescued and with some breeds knowing their full history since birth as well as their ancestry should be equally as important as knowing you prospective partner's sexual history.

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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Which of these dogs is a pitbull? WHAT is a pitbull? A ny big headed dog?
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. for what it is worth, i knew the pit
but that is beside the point.

sure, lots of other big dogs have turned vicious. And as I said in my comments, lots of pits can be fine pets. My daughter's pit was loving and friendly; my daughter is very active in animal rescue, very knowledgeable on the party line of the pit-supporters, and a skilled dog trainer. The dog was a time bomb. Fortunately, it only attacked other dogs, and even more fortunately, they were hers. And, finally, she did the responsible thing - a bit late, in my opinion.

Her experience illustrates the fallacy of thinking that they are safe to distribute at will. We don't let anyone who so wishes adopt a tiger cub and just tell them "be sure to train it not to kill people."
But there are examples of people having been successful at THAT!

There are too many people on the planet, too many dogs getting euthanized, to keep beating the drum that "dogs don't kill people; bad owners kill people"

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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Most news stories carrying "pitbull" stuff, the dog is NOT a pitbull
OMG! A BIG headed dog is headed my way! OMG! It's a PITBULL!!! No, it is a big headed dog. Being the owner of a big headed dog, I get tired of people asking if he is a pit bull and having to explain that he is a rottweiler/gold retriever cross. I really wish that news media would get their act together and not attribute big headed dog stuff to pitbulls.
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
25. anything with a big slobbering mouth. I'm glad cats don't slobber. :-)
Sorry dog people.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Oh brother
And I'm not even a fan of pit bulls.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Wow, what an astonishing display of ignorance, superstision and downright bigotry
Of course it is another sensationalist tale of pit bull attacks, so that always brings out the foolish and hateful.

Let's see, do you know what breed is most likely to bite a human? Do you know that dogs as small as Pomeranians will attack and kill a child? Do you know why these things happen? Because these are dogs, and all dogs have certain things hardwired into them that will turn them vicious. If a human doesn't know how to handle a dog, any dog, it will attack them. Doesn't matter the breed, doesn't matter how they were raised. All that matters is that you set off the ancient alarms that all canines have, and the dog responded.

Pit bulls are simply the latest of the bad boy dogs. When I was a kid back in the sixties, the bad boy dog of the day was German Shepards. They were reviled with all of the venom and energy that are directed at pits today. Yet I was raised with two of the most loyal, loving Shepards ever to grace this earth. People thought my parents were crazy for having "vicious" dogs, but they were really sweethearts. You know why? Because they were raised right, weren't mistreated, and our family knew how to deal with dogs. Oh, and these Shepards that we had, they came from some of the most vicious lines out there, the Purina Farms Police Dog kennels. The reason that we got these dogs is that Purina Farms had bred dogs that were much less vunerable to hip displaysia, a disease that ravages certain big dog breeds.

During the seventies it was Dobermans who were the bad dogs on the block, and then after that, it has become pit bulls. Yes, pit bulls were bred, hundreds of years ago, to fight bears and bulls for sport. However since these dogs were constantly being handled by humans, they had to be human docile, and back during the Middle Ages, pit bull handlers would automatically kill any pit bull that would show human aggression. This made for such a human docile breed that the AKC still(though not as loudly) endorses the pit bull as the ideal family dog.

And they really are. I've had pits and pit mixes all of my adult life, and they are some of the most gentle, intelligent and loving dogs going. Yes, they can become hostile towards other dogs, but hey, that happens with all breeds. The dog who attacked my pit was, of all breeds, a lab. But the thing is that the assholes and dog fighters took a look at the pits' physique and decided that this was the ideal fighting dog. This rep started to build and build, and before you know it every idiot with a short dick and a deficient personality wanted to have a vicious pit bull, and would go through any means to get one. Do you realize what it takes to get a vicious pit? Do you know what people do to these dogs to make them vicious? Eletric shocks, food deprivation, torture, beatings, drowning, etc. etc. And still, in many of the dogs, such methods won't produce a vicious dog, and sadly these dogs are killed in the most horrible way. Any dog subjected to this sort of treatment will become vicious. It isn't the breed of the dog, it is how they are treated, please understand that simple fact. I can take a golden retriever and make it into a killer, contrary-wise, I can also raise pits, shepards and dobermans to be great, loving dogs. It isn't the breed, it is the owner and the quicker that people recognize this the quicker that we can get to the root of the "pit problem" which isn't the dog breed, but as in many cases like this, it is the human.

I've got a little pit now, one who came wandering up to my front door when she was seven months old. It was obvious from her condition that she had escaped from somebody who was trying to turn her mean, and she had simply not done so. She is the most gentle of dogs. She loves being around the other three I've got, she loves people and little kids, and her favorite pastime is to snuggle up to one of our cats. She's not a ticking time bomb, she's a loving dog, and frankly if anybody comes after her in some misguided effort to wipe out a "problem" species, it isn't the dog they'll have to worry about, it will be me, the owner.

I would highly recommend that you go do some research and stop relying on the sensationalist MSM reports for information on pits. I would also suggest that you really get to know pits. In fact, why not get yourself a pit pup yourself. That way you can experience the joys of having a wonderful, intelligent, loving pit bull for a friend.

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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. read my reply above
I had the pleasure of my daughter's pit puppy
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. So you're basing all of your bullshit on one bad experience with your daughter's dog?
Wow, talk about jumping to conclusions. Hell, if I did that sort of thing I would be out trying to exterminate pugs, since my grandmother's pug bit me when I was a small child and still carry the scar.

Sorry, but your "solution" is rooted in ignorance, fear and bigotry. Like I said, go out and get a pit put yourself and raise it like you would any other dog. Not a rescue dog, for rescue dogs of any breed can be problematic. But get a pup that you can raise from eight weeks. Then get back to me and tell me what a vicious breed these dogs are.

Get it through your skull, it isn't the dog, it isn't the breed, it is the humans who raise these dogs that make them vicious. I would be willing to lay down any amount of money that I could take any pit pup, from the most vicious of parents, raise it like I would any of my other dogs, and it would turn out to be a wonderful dog. I would also be willing to bet any amount of money that I could take a pup from what is considered the most unlikely of breeds, and turn it into a killer. Care to put your money where your ignorance is?
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. a little dog bit me, maybe we should ban Chihuahuas?
annoying, isn't it.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. More than annoying, it is infuriating for me
Like I said, I've had pits and pit mixes all of my adult life, and the increasing, irrational fear that people display towards this breed is stunning. Now that cities in the area are trying to ban or limit pits and pit mixes, I'm happy as can be living out in a rural area.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #16
78. Found any killer Chihuahua stories?...
Edited on Tue Aug-21-07 12:51 AM by SidDithers
Yeah, didn't think so.

Sid
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #78
80. Got my hand tore open by 1. Only been attacked by little dogs.
Don't forget that just because it hasn't been reported in MSM doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Likewise, just because MSM reports an attack by a pitbull doesn't mean it was a pitbull. Link elsewhere to misreported attacks, 1 turned out to be a pomeranian. That one stumps me. Pom? Not a big headed dog even, but a fluffy yappy biting attacking pom.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. Well, that's almost the same thing...
as this: Pit bull kills 7-year-old Minneapolis boy at home

Oh. Wait. No it isn't.

Sid
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #81
82. sounds like a dangerous dog, that was known to be dangerous, unlike their other one
Edited on Tue Aug-21-07 01:20 AM by uppityperson
Yes, there have been and will continue to be attacks by dogs. Of all sorts. Including pit bulls. Of course.

MSM likes to report "pitbull" stories because they are sexy and, after all, they are in the business of selling news. Just because they chose to report pitbull stories does not mean the breed of dogs is bad. Yes, some are. So are some labs. Friends had a golden lab that would attack women with long hair, had to tie back my hair when I went over. It had been abused, was a rescued dog. All gold labs aren't bad. Same with big headed dogs or pit bulls.

Anyone who mistreats dogs, whether by cruelty, neglect, or training them/encouraging aggressive behaviour should get into serious trouble.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Oh no, I read your post, and comprehended it fully
Including the fact that you are taking the temperment and conditions of rescue dogs and what you see in the sensationalist MSM and applying it broad brush to an entire breed. I didn't miss that, nor did I miss your subtle and not so subtle hints that you like like to see the whole breed done away with. What a damn foolish notion that is, if you get rid of pits, the idiots and assholes will simply find another breed to torture.

No, I read your posts, and I understand all to well what you're saying. And I disagree with every single word, for I believe that your position is based on ignorance.

I also have noted that you're not challenging my factual positions? Why's that, are you simply wanting to remain insulated in your little bubble of myth and sensationalism? Seems that way to me.

I also noticed that you're not saying anything about taking up my wager. What, afraid to lose that money?

It is due to people like you, people who are ignorant and being brainwashed by these sort of sensationalist reports that we need groups who specialize in pit bull rescue. If it was left in the tender mercies of people like yourself, the pit breed would be gone. It is people like you who are trying to take my dogs away from me by various bans. It is people like you who are threat to my dog and millions of other kind, gentle, wonderful pits, wondering why we should even bother rescuing these dogs rather than killing them. It is people like you who I find abhorent and ugly, people who would rather kill innocent dogs that to do the hard work and hold the humans responsible. Sorry, but such attitudes disgust me.

Like I said, go out and get yourself a pit pup, and raise it like you would any other dog(well, OK, you're going to have to get many more chew toys). Then get back to me. Until then, you're simply talking shit without the knowledge to back it up. Not a good combination.

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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. You want to try training a sheltie not to "herd"
or a ratter not to chase small furry creatures?
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Like I said, it apparent that you are entirely ignorant of what it takes to turn a pit vicious
And like I said earlier, pits were bred to be human compatible, not human killers. But I suppose that you think that the AKC, who still considers the pit to be a great family dog, to be full of it :eyes:

If you take any breed and subject it to what fight dogs are subjected to, it will turn vicious.

It isn't the breed, it's the owner. Until you understand and accept that, we're not going to make any progress.
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
41. get back to me when she's three years old
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Colorado Progressive Donating Member (980 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
46. sorry. you just dont hear about black labs killing children.
Keep the pit if you want, but if your neighbor shoots it tough shit
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #46
53. Maybe because the media is biased and knows what sells papers? Try these links.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #53
57. And these aren't biased?!
:rofl:
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. of course they are, but it is not Media, but a private website.
Media controls much, how people perceive things, sort of like Arabic looking people are scary. So are pit bulls, in big part due to media coverage, fast labeling a dog attack to give that sexy "OMG! PITBULL" thing. Sure, these websites are biased. Of course they are. But they are not MSM.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. They are commercially-driven, just like the MSM
They're sponsored by people trying to sell pit bulls. Just as the media are trying to sell papers or website ads. No difference.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. No difference between a political blog and MSM then either, right?
If you care to believe that a commercial blog and MSM get the same exposure, and have the same effect, well, best of luck.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #61
64. The MSM are not a monolith
All media (did you know that "media" is a plural noun, because there are more than one of them?) do not have the same ideological agenda. Both Fox and MSNBC are mainstream media, but their take on a lot of things are different.

The onus is on pit bull owners to keep their dogs from attacking people. When I take my beagle to the park, people don't grab their kids away.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #64
66. People grab their kids away because of such negative false publicity
When I fly with my middle-eastern looking father, he gets pulled aside for extra screening where my blondness goes right through. A DUer not recognizing the roll that MSM plays. Incredible.
Did you even look at any of those websites?
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #66
67. I've looked at those websites on several occasions
Again, not objective information. Thus, not really persuasive.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #67
68. wheras CNN is. Best of luck, I have no more to say.
not worth my time.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. Backatcha nt
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. back with another DU topic. Have fun
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
72. beating this thing to death, but
the part of my personal experience i didn't describe in my initial post is the followup to my daughters sad experience with the rescued pit.

her second dog - the one the pit did not kill, but only attacked, had been the friendliest, cuddliest big baby you could imagine. At an animal rescue fair she helped set up, he was feature in a booth to "get a kiss from (name)"
Kids paid something to have him "kiss" them, which he would do happily and with enthusiasm all day long.

He is a rescued pit mix

Since being attacked (once) by the other pit, he has become hostile to other dogs; she can no longer take him to the dog park because he starts fights - and he has gotten ugly with her a couple of times - no bite but snarling and lunging. So she rescued a seemingly-lovable pit that had passed muster for adoptability and ended up with one dead dog and one warped dog. Of course the warped one might have been a "time bomb" as I put it, or might just be reacting as any dog would. Then again, the first one didn't turn vicious after the first two attacks, each of which cost well over $500 in vet bills to repair. All anecdotal, of course, and as I stated, I was firmly in her camp, rejecting sensational stories, even grudgingly holding my tongue as to her judgment, her reciting the pit bull party line that has been thrown oh-so-politely at me in this thread. It was a recent revelation to me that dogfighting is as active as it is today, including executing those not aggressive enough. That was an eye-opener that we are not dealing with an ancient receding trait that is an occasional problem, but, rather, at least when it comes to taking in a rescue pit of unknown origin, a currently-active selective breeding program.

That was the thrust of my post, and all the responders who lumped me with the "ignorant bigots" who "want to exterminate all pits" are wrong. And they do themselves and their pets no favors by taking such extremist and obnoxious attitudes.

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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. !




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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. back atcha

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shireen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. the problem is owners, not the dogs.
It is people who create monsters. Pits and other dogs bred for fighting and guarding have inherent characteristics that can make them dangerous in the wrong hands. That is why owners must have a very strong control on these dogs. It takes a great deal of time, discipline, and training to be a responsible pit owner, and many people do not invest the time. If they don't have the time, they should not adopt them.

There are some pits that can never be rehabilitated, sadly, and it is up to rescue organizations to identify such dogs and never put them up for adoption unless it goes to a reputable experienced pit owner who understands how to deal with them.

Before you go condemning all pits based on your personal experience with them, read this website: http://www.pbrc.net / -- you were appalled by it, but did you read it and understand what they were saying? Why do people form pitbull rescues? For the same reason there are beagle, basset hound, German shepherd, and other breed rescue groups. They love those types of dogs. Personally, I'm a mutt girl, but I understand loyalty and love for a breed or type. Pits may not be a recognized breed, but there's no reason they can't be loved by people who appreciate them.

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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #11
38. And if those people were the only ones who had them
Edited on Sun Aug-19-07 11:24 PM by frogcycle
there would be no issue.
I knew when i first posted I'd stir up a shitstorm. That is why i made the reference to the 2nd amendment. It's the same damned thing. Responsible gun owners aren't the problem; its guns in the wrong hands that are the problem. That issue is equally as thorny as this one. I don't want to deprive a true pit-lover of a good pet. But the abuse that is going on, churning out dogs in puppy mills, and then having the "fighting breeds" selected for viciousness by groups like Vick's, and a bunch of street thugs and drug dealers getting them because they are a macho image and trying to make them human aggressive to be good "guard" dogs...

I have heard it for years and just don't buy that animal aggression and human aggression are completely separate. When shelties herd people or ducks, they following a bred-in urge to herd...sheep. Has the pit bull community collected data on all pb human attacks, and then traced the dogs history to find where it was overtly trained to attack people?

I was attacked by a dalmatian when I was 12; still have the scars on my wrist. Dalmations are said to be relatively poor pets. And its not a small dog. With all that, though, I am glad they had a dalmatian and not a pit. I expect my arm would look a whole lot worse, if I were even here.

As I said, it's thorny and I am sympathetic to pit lovers. But irresponsible dog owners, like irresponsible gun owners, generate a lot of bad press, and I see little truly constructive to counter it. Educating the public to understand not all pits are necessarily vicious killers is near pointless. One incident will negate tons of education. And how many people pay any attention to that NRA slogan?

Well, I certainly proved my theory. The response was pretty much identical to what it would have been had I said "ban all guns!'

For my next act I'll yell "fire!' in a crowded theater! :)




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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. My issue is most "pit bull attacks" do not involve pit bulls, but big headed dogs.
Many times the first story "omg a pit bull!" is later changed, clarified, whatever they put the little notice back in the paper, that oops, it wasn't a pit bull after all. And most people who see a couple dogs I am involved with think they are pitbulls (OMG!) but they are not.
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. while i grant that ther is anecdotal evidence
of the knee-jerk use of "pit bull" by inflammatory reporters, can you substantiate the statement that it is "most" reports?

Most of the reports that get widespread attention are the truly horrific ones where someone gets killed. They get follow-up with lawsuits and such, and I don't recall hearing of a correction. But I might not have been paying attention.

Maybe there are a lot of spurious "minor" attacks like this one (which, I agree, got circulated because of the "grandma" line) that are misidentifications that never get corrected - or maybe the corrections are buried away, as you say. But do you have hard data?

Hey, maybe it will turn out to have been a wolf and the grandchild was really Little Red... nahhhh.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. Here are a few websites to browse
A couple reports:
http://www.chako.org/goodbad.html

Media mistakes and misidentification:
http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/MistakenIdentity/W...

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/PitbullInformation/Urb...
The Washington Animal Foundation did a survey on human fatalities by dogs in 2001 and came up with these figures, Rottweiler (6); Labrador (2);
Pomeranian (1); German Shepherd (2); Chow (1); Wolf-Hybrid (1); Akita (1); Doberman (1); Beagle (1); Presa Canario (2); Pit Bull (1); mixed breeds (6). When comparing these figures with the human fatalities from 1975-80 by Pickney & Kennedy, Traumatic Deaths from Dog Attacks in the United States, the report identified the following as responsible for human fatalities during the study period from May, 1975 to April, 1980: German Shepherd (16); Husky (9); St. Bernard (8); Bull Terrier (6); Great Dane (6); Malamute(5); Golden Retriever (3); Boxer (2); Dachshund (2); Doberman Pinscher (2); Collie (2); Rottweiler(1); Basenji (1); Chow-Chow (1); Labrador Retriever (1); Yorkshire Terrier (1); mixed and unknown breeds (15). One would question the accuracy of human fatalities by dogs from current reports and especially the statistics on the Pit Bull. When looked at from a more realistic point of view one would find Shepherds and other working dogs rate higher in fatalities. However, given the increasing population of dog breeds at any given time, it is impossible to compare one breed to another.



Here are some myths:
http://www.pitbulllovers.com/american-pit-bull-terrier-...

Here is some positive press:
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/pospress.php

All sorts of dogs bite/attack:
http://www.chako.org/dogblog/forums/8/ShowForum.aspx
http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/OtherBreedBites/Al...

Anyone who fights dogs, or breeds them, raises them, trains them, to fight, is below scum in my opinion.
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #49
56. thanks - will look tomorrow at the links
On that last line we are in violent agreement


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Colorado Progressive Donating Member (980 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
47. then why dont you hear of labs and goldens killing people?
It IS the frickin dogs! They were bred to KILL!!!!
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #47
50. Most aren't,shame on owners who raise them badly. Here is a website with some erroneous reporting.
Edited on Mon Aug-20-07 12:36 AM by uppityperson
Shame on any owner who raises any dog in a bad way. Pit bulls are not bred to KILL!!!
Then look up to post #49 for more:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/MistakenIdentity/W...
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shireen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #47
73. labs and goldens have been known to attack people, unprovoked. nt
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
29. I run a rescue, and we mostly do pit rescue.
I guess I'm appalling. Better than being overtly ignorant, but then, it looks good on some folks, present company included.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. Well, you're attached to them and their part of your self-image. You're certainly not taking them in
because they're such a huge percentage of the dogs that are being abused and neglected by one kind of dumbfuck or another.

Oh, wait. That's exactly why you have so many. Never mind. :eyes:

BTW, the puppy pics in the lounge are fucking adorable. If any of their adoptions fall through, let's say you know somebody who wants a dog. :D
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shireen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #29
74. THANK YOU!!!
those sweet misunderstood little sweethearts are so fortunate to have an angel like you.
:hug: :yourock: :applause:
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
34. Heebus Tapdancing Christ, that's one of the most ignorant things I've ever read on DU
After years and years of reading here, that's quite an accomplishment.

:wtf:
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
51. Excuse me! I have a pit bull/bull dog mix. The sweetest dog.
I have 20 acres of woods on a dead end, so I let him run free. Sometimes folks from the sub-divison further up the street walk to the dead end. He will bark at them, but never attacked. In fact, the few that have stopped and tried to pet him had no problems once they allowed him to sniff their hands.
The owners are the problem. NOT the dogs.
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shireen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. bad owners, not the pitbull, are responsible
I get sick to my stomach everytime I hear about these dog attacks, not just for the people victims, but also for the dog victim. That dog attacked because of poor training and discipline by its owner, and that individual should be jailed for it. The dog will probably be put to sleep; most of the time it's too difficult to rehabilitate them. And even if it could be rehabilitated, there aren't enough people with that expertise. People who own dogs bred for fighting or guarding, like pits, rotties, dobies, and German shepherds need to understand the power of these dogs, and train them to understand that attacking people is unacceptable.

I hope the kids recover, it is a traumatic experience. I was bitten as a kid, and it took me a long time to get over it. But in the past 10 years, I've evolved into a strong advocate for dogs and other pets. With the right training and discipline, dogs are all love and licks, and will truly be the best friend you'll ever have.

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Retired AF Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Dont waste your time
you cant change the minds of folks like frogcycle who thinks their life will become safer if something is banned. People just havent figured it out yet YOU ARE GOING TO DIE. No matter how you live your life YOU ARE GOING TO DIE. So lets ban everything and live a crappy life and still die in the end.
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. actually, i'd prefer we execute the owner of this dog
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Retired AF Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. This I agree with
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angrycarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
20. I had A pit once
He was A beautiful dog. He was the smartest animal I have ever had. I had raised him from the day he was born and up until he attacked my father for no reason I loved him more than most people. It took 49 stitches to close the wounds my father received from my "best friend". I will never have another dangerous dog. You cannot ever tell what is going on in it's head. For the people who say that they are only dangerous if they are made that way should take A lesson from me, The pit bull has been inbred for centuries. They are not stable personalities no matter how they are raised.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. I've had six pits over the years, and four pit mixes
They've all been kind, intelligent, gentle dogs who attacked nobody, human or animal. Yet when I was a small child my grandmother's pug attacked me and left me with a lifelong scar under my eye. Gee, what does that tell you about these breeds? :shrug:

Thanks, but I'll stick with the opinion of the proffessionals, the AKC, who have rated the pit bull as one of the top family dogs for nearly a century now.
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angrycarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. went to the akc site
I did not see anything that precisely matched A pit bull. Maybe the staffordshire bull terrier. The pit bull I am talking about is the mixed-up block-headed dog that is used as A fighting dog across the country. The only attention to breed purity these dogs have had is the effort to make them tougher and more aggressive. People have interbred many other breeds into these dogs and thinking of them as A purebred dog is not entirely accurate. I am glad your dogs are gentle and I hope nothing bad happens but from my personal experience these dogs are not to be entirely trusted.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Like these dogs? Sounds like you are talking behavior, not breed.
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html
Which of these dogs is the aggressive pitbull?
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angrycarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Perhaps I am biased
The "non-aggressive" pit I had nearly killed my father and put him in the hospital for 2 days with bites to both arms and neck. I knew this dog, I would have bet anything that he would not bite anyone. Maybe that unfairly influenced my opinion to never turn your back on any large dog that was bred for aggression.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #31
52. The Staffordshire Bull Terrier is the AKC name for the Pit bull breed.
Other breeds have been known to attack suddenly for no "apparent" reason. And just because the reason isn't apparent to you doesn't mean there isn't one. It often happens as the dog gets older if it is in pain, such as arthritis.
What you describe has NOTHING to do with the breed.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #31
54. Yeah, the AKC doesn't recognize the pit bull as a breed
Edited on Mon Aug-20-07 12:37 AM by mycritters2
The American Pit Bull Terrier is not an AKC registered breed. So, people who cite the AKC as being pit bull-friendly are just lying. The AKC doesn't even recognize the APBT as a breed. So, it certainly doesn't endorse the breeding of them.
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #23
43. The Assault on Reason
I looked up the ATTS Breed Statistics ratings for all breeds:


I wouldn't try to get much mileage out of those stats. The majority are all clustered right at the overall figure of 82.7 And when there is a significant sample size - I used 100 or more - it tends to be even tighter. About the most you can say is that the test does not seem to show many extremes. It does appear to bear out the Akita's known aggressiveness, but that is about it. So to the extent that the American Pit and American Staffordshire score essentially the same as the pool the test may demonstrate that variations are specific to individuals, not to breeds, which would support the flaming responses to my post. Then, of course one needs to ask from where they got the dogs to test. If they used "good" pits then what is proven? Maybe a similar test of various breeds after they are mistreated would identify "time bomb breeds". Don't try to beat me up over these comments. I don't assume that necessarily to be the case. I am just pointing out that the selective example on the website listing the two "pit-like" breeds numbers and the Golden Retriever are propaganda at its finest. They also score slightly worse than the Boxer, but that is not mentioned. This is just an effort to overwhelm with supposed 'scientific facts' that are actually just inconclusive raw data to support an emotional position. Take a position and then distort the facts to support it - now where have I heard that before?
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #43
55. Hmmm, very interesting statement you made:
"Take a position and then distort the facts to support it - now where have I heard that before?"

Although it is YOU who are taking the facts and twisting them any way you can to support your emotional opinion.

Take a good look in the mirror.
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #55
63. the single most important fact to me
is what I quoted early on - roughly 22,000 potential pets euthanized EVERY DAY in this country. I would love to save them all. With that an impossibility, I would like to see the highest-probability-of-success saved. The pit rescue groups DO strive to identify and cull the unsalvageable; I am very well aware of that. So do others. I was involved tangentially with an Akita rescue organization, and there it is even scarier. They are more prone to be human aggressive, and they are even bigger than (most) pits. I had the same opinion there. Straining to determine whether the animal is a time bomb while thousands of better prospects are being snuffed is illogical. Pit fanciers who deal with reputable breeders, don't take them too young, and raise/train properly are FINE with me. What I object to with all rescue groups (and I have had two rescue dogs) is the fixation on saving every one of THAT BREED to the exclusion of others. That emotional involvement can lead to poor judgment - disregarding reason, finding ways to deny the risks. I saw it in the Akita group - an almost messianic fervor. And the cases of abuse are so horrific - with all breeds, that that messianic fervor is really easy to develop. Once that takes hold, reason is lost.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #63
70. ok, I can agree that rescue groups should go across all breeds.
I managed to rescue mine as a pup, that was about to be thrown away. My 2 dogs before him were rescues of a sort - one from the pound and one from the vet.
I can understand why some agencies would feel the need to specialize, if they felt one breed was being discriminated against or needed special attention, however. But overall, I too would like to see broader rescues across all breeds.
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StarryNite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #20
35. I agree with you.
It is in the breeding. That's why there are different breeds for different purposes. You wouldn't use a Maltese to heard sheep. And people who fight dogs wouldn't throw two Old English Sheepdogs into a pit to fight. That doesn't mean that Old English Sheepdogs will never fight or that every Pit Bull is a born killer. But breeding is at the base of each breed.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. Of course a lot of it comes from the breeding.
People who keep on claiming that it's the owner and the owner only amaze me to no end. Hello. Different breeds were bred for different purposes. Aggression is included in some breed descriptions, for crying out loud.
Yet some people keep on arguing that it's all in how the dog was raised. It doesn't make any sense to me.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #42
59. And if you keep trying to get it to make sense,
you'll just hurt yourself. Common sense has no place in these discussions, apparently.

You're right, though. Pit bulls were bred to fight, as my beagle was bred to track scents. They both have the characteristics necessary for the work for which they were bred. A beagle owner who ignores this fact will find a beagle who has gotten into something good-smelling but dangerous--like anti-freeze. A pit bull owner who ignores this will have to take responsibility for injuries to other dogs or the neighbors.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #59
62. SOME dogs are bred to fight, pitbulls weren't but to be companions
loyal companions. Up until recently they enjoyed a great popularity as kind and gentle dogs. Yes, some idiots breed dogs for fighting, but overall, that is not true of the breed.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #62
65. Umm, wrong.
Pit bulls were first used as bull-baiting dogs in the slaughterhouses and later fighting pits of England. When bull-baiting was outlawed, they began to be used to fight one another in the pits, for gambling and amusement. This is what they were bred for. And thus, they carry the traits necessary for this work.
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
24. How old is 'grandma', Media likes to emphasize the 'grandma' when sometimes the 'grandma' is age 45
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. so what?
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. 'grandma' fights off pitbull conjurs image of grey haired old lady. many times person is middle age
Not taking anything away from the lady for fighting off the pitbull but the media is always looking for the hook of the story.
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Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Um, because they were her grandkids?
Would you prefer "middle age woman fights off pit-bull to save children who happen to be the children of her daughter"?
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Sensationalising, right? "Pit bull" "grandmother"
omg omg omg omg omg omg omg

Right?
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Sanctified Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
39. It's shit like this that keeps me carrying a concealed weapon.
Edited on Sun Aug-19-07 11:15 PM by MiltonF
I am not really afraid of other people, however as a person who spends a lot of time in the wild I do have a healthy respect for animals wild or domesticated.
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-20-07 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
48. Go Granny!
:yourock:
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
77. At first glance I thought it said "serves" grandkids...
as the main course or an appetiser?...

nevermind...
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
79. Pit bulls should be outlawed and I hope that particular pit bull is executed
Half kidding, half serious.
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entanglement Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
83. Keep your "friendly" pitbull / wolf / cheetah / python / gator off my property
Edited on Tue Aug-21-07 01:31 AM by entanglement
and then I could care less what your critter does to you / you do to your critter. Of course, as a good citizen, I'll be forced to call 911 if your screams get REALLY loud.

:P
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