Debate on lower drinking age bubbling up

[RamboLiberal]

Over the strong objection of federal safety officials, a quiet movement to lower the legal drinking age to 18 is taking root as advocates argue that teenagers who are allowed to vote and fight for their country should also be able to enjoy a beer or two.

The proposal, which is the subject of a national petition drive by the National Youth Rights Association, has been studied in a handful of states in recent years, including Florida, Wisconsin, Vermont and Missouri, where supporters are pushing a ballot initiative.

Opponents of the idea point to a reported rise in binge drinking as teenagers increasingly turn to hard liquor as proof that minors should not be allowed to drink, but proponents look at the same data and draw the opposite conclusion.

“Raising the drinking age to 21 was passed with the very best of intentions, but it’s had the very worst of outcomes,” said David J. Hanson, an alcohol policy expert at the State University of New York-Potsdam. “Just like during national Prohibition, the law has pushed and forced underage drinking and youthful drinking underground, where we have no control over it.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20249460/

I've always been of the opinion if you're old enough to kill for Uncle Sam you ought to be old enough to drink. If you're not mature enough to drink at 18 then you shouldn't be considered mature enough to enlist! Let 'em drink at 18 or don't let them enlist at 18. Raise the enlistment age to 21!

[BlooInBloo]

1. Fuck people just WANT to be stupid sooooo bad....

... Yah - what we need is 18 year olds, who drive the way they do, with their sense of responsibility, to be drinking more.

America fucking deserves what it gets.

[helderheid]

2. I like how they have it set up in Holland - you can drink before you can get a driver's license -

get all the drunken nonsense out of the way and learn to drink responsibly BEFORE learning to drive.

[BlooInBloo]

3. There might be something to that....

... Or it might just be one of the myriad of differences between the Americans and the Dutch, where you can't make just *one* of them the same, and reasonably expect a good result.

[TahitiNut]

21. Yup. I call that "a la carte" thinking.

We do it obsessively. We don't comprehend the dynamics of the whole. We like 'parts' of people, rarely the whole person. Some limit those 'parts' to the genitals ... or mammaries.

God forbid we have a "balanced diet."

[BlooInBloo]

24. Good term. I also use "retail" or "piecemeal" variously.

[helderheid]

25. Well, I actually like how Holland has set up just about everything. n/t

[TahitiNut]

28. I'd agree with that. There's a certain consistency that some miss out on.

Maybe they admire the courage inherent in tilting at windmills?

:evilgrin:

[porphyrian]

50. What makes you think they'll be drinking more simply because it's legal?

Laws don't prevent anything. Legalizing it simply means they'll be buying their own beer rather than bribing someone older to get it for them. The only thing that will change is that there will be more people under 21 in clubs than there are now, and, while that may create its own problems, there's no reason to believe it will increase the number of young adults drinking at any given time.

[BlooInBloo]

53. The laws of suppy and demand.

[porphyrian]

54. I don't know where you grew up, but the drinking age was never a barrier here...

...for any kids who wanted to get drunk. And, because they had to do it on the sly, they would tend to over-do it in out of the way places, then have to drive home somehow.

Lowering the legal drinking age only means younger people can drink legally. It doesn't increase the number of people who will drink.

[BlooInBloo]

59. Then there's no problem to solve.

[porphyrian]

63. That's not right either. The problem just isn't the one you defined.

People still get arrested for underaged drinking, and the punishment for doing so is levied unfairly against minorities and the poor. Lowering the drinking age will allow those who drink to do so without penalty, as long as they break no other laws. That's why they are seeking to lower the drinking age.

[Dark]

61. Yea, keep driving underage drinking underground! That'll teach those kids about responsiblity!

If you're going to bury your head in the ground, please do so somewhere else.

Teenagers DRINK, whether people like it or not. They can reduce it a little, or try to educate students on how to enjoy drinking and, GASP, being a little intoxicated without binge drinking.

[Hippo_Tron]

4. The drinking age would be 18 if 18-20 year olds would actually vote

As much as I hate not being able to drink legally (luckilly not for too much longer) I accept that it's partly the fault of the political apathy of those my age.

[wuushew]

5. What makes you think that?

That assumes that a large percentage of people older than 18-21 would also vote for lowering the drinking age. Recent political history has largely demonstrated that people seem to harbor strong opinions about what other people do.

[Hippo_Tron]

13. It's not a decision made by referrendum it's a decision made by congress

Since they take away state highway funds if your state doesn't have the drinking age at 21. If 18-20 year olds were a solid voting block that turned out in great numbers, politicians of both parties would start pandering to them. Here's a good example. Ken Salazar eeked out a win over Pete Coors in 2004 in the Colorado Senate race. Pete Coors supported lowering the drinking age to 18, Salazar did not. If 18-20 year olds turned out in solid numbers, that race might have gone a different way. Also if they turned out in solid numbers, Salazar may have considered changing his position on the issue.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

6. I say 19, to better keep it away from high schoolers. (nt)

[karlrschneider]

7. Good plan since it's impossible for high schoolers to get it now.

...

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

10. I said "better" for a reason.

I'm not an idiot - I know they get booze. But the last thing you need is to have someone STILL IN HIGH SCHOOL able to buy for all of his/her friends. That's not bright.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. You know what is so funny is that

18 becomes the drinking age, we will just be joining the rest of the world

I have no clue why other countries don't have a problem with this, but we do

(Ok I do, puritan values gone amock)

[northzax]

15. our teenagers have cars

to an extent that no other country does. There's your difference.

[RaleighNCDUer]

22. So raise the driving age. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Hmm Canada

they have cars too.. and I hazard to the same extent

[northzax]

67. but, as a general rule

it is harder to get a license in Canada, in many provinces, you can get a learner's permit at 16, but it takes a year, at least, to get a provisional license, and then you don't get a full one for another year. That is much more rigourous than most states in the US, where a full license at 16 is almost a birthright.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

16. Other countries also have a healthier view of alcohol than we do.

To them, it's not really a big deal. Wine is almost always at the dinner table, and I'd dare say that in most of those households, the kids drink it with them at a fairly young age.

Here, alcohol is pictured as the forbidden fruit. You're always going to have problems when you take that point of view with something.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. That is why dropping the drinking age

will help in changing that view in society

No disagreement there, we live in a puritan represed society

[knight_of_the_star]

44. If I have kids that's how it will be handled

As no big deal, more the issue of overindulging and loss of self-control than the actual act in and of itself.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Go for it

if we had a lower drinking age perhaps binge secret drinking will go down

And so will the drives to both Canadian and Mexican Border towns who have seen the light for many years

You are old enough to die for your country, here, have a cool one

[bamacrat]

9. While I agree it is stupid that you can die for your country but not buy a beer.

I think legalizing marijuana is a much more pressing matter, 700,000 plus are arrested each year for simple possession alone. If 700,000 18 year olds were arrested for having alcohol each year the age would be 18. I agree with "Raise the enlistment age to 21!", many 18 year olds see the military as their only hope to attend college or make a life for themselves, few probably realize that they may very well die.

Strength through peace!

[NC_Nurse]

12. There will never be a rational approach to drinking, sex, or drugs here.

It's just not the American Way. :eyes:

We are one of the few developed countries that still insists on shaming people for being human. Even though we hide our
vices in plain sight - even advertise them. We can't possibly have rational laws and policies. That would be CONDONING it.

or something....

[helderheid]

14. Well said!

[NC_Nurse]

27. Why thank you!

:hi:

[TahitiNut]

29. Well, if the age were lowered to zero, beer could be packaged in fake mammaries ...

... and that'd make a LOT of people happy. :evilgrin:

I've heard Guinness called "mother's milk" ... so they could put up or shut up. :silly:

[krispos42]

17. Legalize low-alcohol at 18

Beer, wine, wine coolers, malt drinks like Zima... say, anything under 15 proof.

You can get the hard stuff at 21.


Not advocating this, particularly, but I think maybe it should be part of the discussion, if only to be shot down.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

19. There is some logic to that statement.

I don't have it on hand, but there was a report issued last week that binge drinking among teenagers was pretty well limited to hard alcohol, because it's easily smuggled and gets you drunk faster.

[TahitiNut]

18. I think it should be RAISED ... to 35.

Until a person meets the eligibility requirements for President, they shouldn't drink.

:shrug:

[salin]

23. hehe...

when I lived in the Metro DC area there were three sets of laws per drinking age and where and when could buy liquor - so when it was too late to get more beer in one place, folks would pile in cars to cross the state (or district) line to go buy elsewhere... if one wasn't old enough to go on a beer run in one state - no problem - pile in the car and drive to the next state/district. It was nuts.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

20. Alright, a compromise.

The age where driving becomes legal can be 16.

The age where drinking becomes legal can be 18.

The age where drinking and driving becomes legal can stay 21.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Drinking and driving should NEVER be legal

[Jed Dilligan]

26. Lower the drinking age to 16

And raise the driving age to 21.

[NashVegas]

31. Interesting Concept!

I like it, but then I don't have any kids to chauffeur around.

[Jed Dilligan]

39. Actually, I'd say that would be the first step

toward bringing us back to pedestrian and bike scale. Teens do nothing but spend money; retailers want them. If the teens can't just drive to the mall the big retailers will have to build more smaller stores--and possibly get outcompeted by small business!

Colleges would save billions of dollars on parking and enjoy a resurgence of campus life as all students would have to live on or near campus.

And the pubs that would open within walking distance of high schools would also serve the adults in the neighborhood--cutting down on the nighttime drunk-driving traffic between the suburb and urban center. And the adults would be able to monitor the kids' drinking. In fact, it might be a good idea to raise the age at which you can take alcohol home (rather than drinking in public places) to 25 or so.

[NashVegas]

42. LOL. There Is Such a Thing As Taking a Good Idea a Step Too Far

I grew up in a town where there's a bar on almost every block. Wonderful alcoholism rates. Great place to be *from* you know?

[Jed Dilligan]

51. Which came first

the bars, or the alcoholics?

I doubt the problems in your town came from the businesses that catered to them. European cities have bars on every corner and they aren't particularly bad places to be from.

[Coexist]

47. No way - my 16 yo has her license. She is responsible

and has been a great help getting my other kids to where they need to be when I work. She also gets herself to and from work.

There is no reason for her to not be driving.

[Jed Dilligan]

52. So what?

I'm sure there are 13 year olds who are responsible enough to drive. If there's going to be a line, it has to be somewhere. One case doesn't affect me in the slightest (no matter how much it affects you).

[Coexist]

56. okay - so high school grads (and some college grads) shouldn't

be able to drive to work to make a living to support themselves or their families?

Really?!

[Jed Dilligan]

64. In an ideal world, no

They would walk, bike, or take the bus, like everyone else of any age.

[Lasher]

30. I couldn't agree more

I was drafted just after turning 19. You had to be 21 to vote back then. I could buy beer but not hard liquor. It's hard to describe how unjust that felt.

If you're not an adult in every other respect you sure shouldn't be drafted, or be allowed to enlist voluntarily either. If 18 to 20 is too young to drink or vote, then raise the draft/enlistment age to 21.

[sarcasmo]

32. 18 to enter the Military, it should be 18 to drink.

I used to hate the fact that I couldn't drink but could die for my Country.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[helderheid]

36. Drinks are on Grovel Bot!

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Pass me a coffee

I don't drink

:-)

No, not a puritan stance, just don't have the tolerance

[NashVegas]

40. This Is Great News!

Raising the drinking age to 21 as a way of combating drunk driving was one of the silliest excesses of the 1980s, not to mention a horrific example of the Feds setting the states to heel.

[frazzled]

41. I think we have a lot more important national issues to debate

at the moment.

For example: the Iraq war, the health care crisis, global warming, alternative energy, the economy.

Let's keep the drinking age at 21 for now: maybe when things get better, in about a decade, we can revisit this non-issue.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Actually from the POV of public heath

is not a non issue

It is just not in the top of the priority, unless you are 18

And you want to make this less of a priority, ennact a draft, the 18 year olds will suddenly pay attention to the iraq war

[Ezlivin]

45. Does anyone here remember when it WAS 18?

When I lived in Tampa the drinking age was 18. No problem. I drank and had fun, then joined the Navy. After boot camp they shipped me off to San Diego when I was just a few months shy of my 21st birthday. In California the drinking age was 21.

That was a real bitch, having drank without problems for over two years only to be told I wasn't old enough to drink!

And I don't recall as many problems with binge drinking.

[Coexist]

48. I do. Then it was 19. Then 21.

weird stuff.

[soothsayer]

49. yes, and it was fine.

[Toasterlad]

65. I Do. What a Glorious Time For Youth.

We actually were afraid of our parents then, because our parents actually ACTED like parents, and would discipline us if they caught us being bad. So when the high school seniors bought us beer, we were always careful not to get too drunk that mom and dad would notice, and someone's sober girlfriend always drove us home. We had all the thrill of being bad, with very little actual risk. It was fantastic.

[Selatius]

68. I recommend dropping it to 16 with a federal mandatory seatbelt law.

Nobody should be on the roads without a seatbelt on unless they want to face being pulled over and fined for just not wearing a seatbelt. That's the trade off.

[ElboRuum]

46. The Age of Majority

If you are responsible enough to be allowed to vote...
If you are responsible enough to move out of your parent's or guardian's home without permission...
If you are responsible enough to be permitted a driver's license...
If you are responsible enough to be permitted a hunting license...
If you are responsible enough to own a firearm...
If you are responsible enough to be convicted of a crime at the full measure permissible by law...
If you are responsible enough to get a job without the need of working papers...
If you are responsible enough to enlist in the armed services and die in service to your country...

You are responsible enough to have a beer.

[devilgrrl]

55. 18 for beer/wine - 21 hard liquor

:shrug:

[Matariki]

57. DWI laws and penalties in other countries

http://cda.morris.umn.edu/~sadd/laws.html

[guitar man]

58. either

lower the drinking age to 18 or raise the military enlistment age to 21. I remember when I was 18 and in the USMC, nothing pissed me off more than when I landed in a state where the drinking age was 21. Old enough to enlist, old enough to drink.

[Aptastik]

60. I think it's a great idea

They should probably do away with the drinking age altogether. In Europe, they have less of a problem with binge drinking than in the USA. I think it's because their youth are exposed to it at an earlier age and it loses a lot of its "forbidden fruit" appeal, also giving the youth more experience with alcohol.

That being said, I also think they should raise the fines and penalties for someone caught with a DUI who is under 21, to help prevent more drunken drivers on the nation's roads.

I'm only 23, and I was able to buy at 15 without a problem. If you honestly think kids aren't drinking because they're not old enough, you're seriously mistaken.

Let's make it legal and get it out in the open. It will also destroy the fake ID market which terrorists can exploit - for your Republican talking point on the matter.

Fight terrorism - Lower the drinking age!!

HA - I could totally be a Republican strategist...

[MasonJar]

62. If they are not old enough to drink, they certainly are not old enough

to go to war.

[skamaria]

66. Drinking age

How about making the drinking age 21 or a high school diploma. Which ever comes first.