Do poor people have free will

[JVS]

Poll question: Do poor people have free will

Are their decisions to be considered valid, or is their poverty a coercive agent. If they do not have free will, then at what income level does free will kick in?

[lostnotforgotten]

1. No, Their Economic Free Will Is Quite Constrained!

eom

[JVS]

2. At what income level is one free?

[lostnotforgotten]

11. Red Herring Question As That Depends On Where One Lives

eom

[JVS]

21. ok. fine. Toledo OH

[ThomWV]

25. Depends entirely on how much DEBT they have

Inverse relationship between your freedom and how much you owe.

[JVS]

26. how much debt do you need to have to be forced to join the military?

[ThomWV]

38. No one has been forced to join the military since we dumped the draft

What you mean is they join the military to gain income rather than move to some other place where they could gain income. Moving to the military is no different than moving anywhere else when the goal is simply to gain income.

I did not intend to say that debt alone determined a person's ability to survive. What I intended to say is that income alone means very little if not seen in the light of how much of it must be spent not for sustenance but to service another man's investment. Every yin has a yang.

[TahitiNut]

62. Nobody was FORCED to join the military even during the draft. It was their "free will".

:evilgrin:

After all, many went to Canada and many merely refused ... and accepted the consequences.

[lumberjack_jeff]

65. Depends on the source of the income.

A person's free will is directly proportional to their economic self-determination.

An engineer making $100k/year is less free than a retiree making $50k. The retiree doesn't have to dance to anyone's tune.

[onehandle]

3. Yes. To commit crime and die in Iraq for the rich. nt

[JVS]

5. So poor people must commit crimes and die in Iraq?

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

158. POLL FAILS TO SCALE THE 'FREE WILL' OF THOSE FUCKING THE POOR!!!!!

Shit like this disgusts me to the core,...treating the human condition as if it is an either/or proposition.

Do "POOR PEOPLE" have 'free will',...OVER WHAT!!! TO DO WHAT?????

Do "POOR PEOPLE" have WILL OVER their condition, their neighbors, their weather, their spiritual being, their opportunities, WHAT THEY WERE BORN INTO, the "CHANCE" to "succeed", their wages, their children, their government, their boss, their electricity, their ability, their gas and milk prices, their genes, their family, their crops, their health, the fucking wind?????

How much experience is required to comprehend the FACT that individuals do NOT have complete control over their lives by exercising "free will"? Our "free will" ONLY CONTROLS OUR INDIVIDUAL SELVES in our lots in life.

I mean, DAMN IT,...our history has PROVEN over and over and over that individuals DO NOT control their destinies. READ EINSTEIN,...he never imagined nor did he EVER TRY to become the influence reaching us to this day. He was a "fluke",...a mysterious and beautiful one, in spite of what the 'powers-that-be' did with his imagination.

In terms of how "free will" has ever changed history, the only time catalysts for change have impacted the human path is when a COMMON WILL among masses forced a different direction.

This "poor people",..."free will" crap is just,...well, bullshit!!!

Every-fucking-body knows the poor are disadvantaged and ABUSED by predatory human beings. Why not ask about the predatory peoples' "FREE WILL" to use and abuse others? THAT WOULD BE A FAR MORE APPROPRIATE POLL.

FUCK!!!! :grr: FUCK!!! :grr:

I guess doing a poll on how greedy muther ucks would be too obvious,...and too damn progressive and compassionate to post, HUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:grr: :grr: :grr:

[unkachuck]

183. here, here!

'Do "POOR PEOPLE" have 'free will',...OVER WHAT!!! TO DO WHAT?????'

....poor people are 'free' to do what they're told....if they choose not to do what they're told, they will suffer the many harsh consequences including death....unfortunately, there's not much 'free will' in death....

"predatory human beings"....now that's the source of our problems including our lack of 'excercisable free will'...."predatory human beings" exercising their 'free will' to be predatory....

....and instead of being revolted and disgusted, we celebrate them....

[Forkboy]

4. Not a yes or no answer to me.

It's a mix of both.I still have the free will to be the person I want to be (or more accurately,try to be).

It's more a question of economic free will.The capability to say, "I need to do this", and be able to do it without having to NOT do something else equally as important.

[liberal N proud]

6. Yes, they can still dream and strive to break free from the poverty

But they are knocked down at every turn keeping them in slavery to their poverty status.

[deutsey]

7. We all have free will, it's just that poverty makes it difficult to act on it

I grew up poor. My mom, who dropped out of high school because she got pregnant with me, was a waitress in a diner for the first decade of my life. I didn't know my dad and my first stepfather was addicted to drugs. We had social services at one point threatening to put me and my sister into foster care.

My sister and I grew up poor and had all the piles of negative psycho-social bullshit that poor people have to dig through just to get to the starting line where most middle class kids are born (upper class kids, of course, find themselves ahead of the starting line). That was our free will to do that, but I understand why some poor people won't or can't do the same.

There is such a tangle of inner and external influences and realities you have to sift through and overcome, and so much depends on whether you have basically good parents/guardians (we did with my mom, despite the first stepdad); or whether you have opportunities and, more importantly, the ability to take advantage of those opportunities, as to whether your free will can help change your situation.

[H2O Man]

8. It's the only kind

they can afford.

[TahitiNut]

34. snap

:rofl:

[bobbolink]

120. But the line

is very long.

[Raksha]

9. Free will is a metaphysical attribute, so of course poor people

have free will if any human beings have it at all. But speaking from personal experience, it's very, very FRUSTRATED free will most of the time!

[spindoctor]

10. All they can afford is free will

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Everyone has free will. Money will buy you more choices.

[Katherine Brengle]

12. I said yes, because to do otherwise dehumanizes the poor.

I believe being poor limits one's choices in many ways, and that needs to change, but in the end the poor still have free will. It may be harder to act on that free will, but it is still possible.

[JVS]

22. I agree completely

[baldguy]

13. Of course they have free will.

It's just that when you're poor your choices are severely limited or non-existent.

Now, try and get on an airplane without getting a body cavity search first. At income level does that privilege kick in?

[rateyes]

14. You do realize that the wealthier one is,

the more enslaved he/she is? Everyone has choices. Poor people actually have more of them.

[spindoctor]

15. Who has more options where to spend September? You or say, Bill Gates?

Assuming you are A. not Bill Gates and B. you do not have the means that he has, do you have plans for September? My guess is that you will still be working because you have no alternative and the bills (no pun intended) need to be paid. Bill probably will be working too but he has the choice to retire or say buy a space shuttle and fly to Mars.
Somebody without any possessions or commitments would also have more choices than you, but Mars won't be one of them. It's the middle class (including yours truly) that chose to be slaves to the system. Ahhh, if only I had pursued my rock & roll career.

[rateyes]

28. We have the same options of where to spend September.

There's a price to pay for everything, though.

Who is more free---the homeless guy on the street, or the one who "owns" a home (or should I say a mortgage?)? Who has more options of where to spend September?

Bill Gates has to answer to the stockholders. He has to keep working, even on vacation to ensure that the stockholders make money. He's got bills to pay, too. Only his bills are a whole lot bigger than your bills or my bills, aren't they? That software doesn't create itself. It takes energy, personnel, capital, infrastructure, insurance, etc...and, someone has to pay for it. Gates can't just pick up and walk away from it, not until he divests himself of it. Gates, free? I don't think so.

[hfojvt]

50. yes you do have to be kidding

He's worth 50 billion. Alot of that is paper. He, himself, is one of the major stockholders, and he certainly answers to no others. Sure, if he liquidated and got out maybe he would "only" end up with $2 billion. He easily pays his bills and his wealth grows almost every day. Yes, he is quite free. He can choose to do whatever he wants. "Someone has to pay for it". Yes, the customers pay for it. It's not coming out of Gates' pocket.

[rateyes]

69. We all can choose to do whatever we want.

It may take longer for some than others, but we can all choose to do whatever we want. But, we have to remember that choices have consequences. And, there is a price to be paid for everything.

And, what do you think would happen if Gates decided to remain the head of Microsoft, but to never show up for work? He's got a lot of pressure to keep that company going and keep it profitable. Look at Enron. Kenny Boy Lay was one friggin wealthy individual, wasn't he? Today, you can't give Enron stock away...all because of poor choices.

Gates didn't fall into his wealth. He is where he is because of the CHOICES he made in life, and the risks he took that paid off for him. But, his position in life obligates him to a helluva lot of people. And, he answers to every one of them. An employee of Microsoft Corporation is one of Bill Gates' creditors. Every day a Microsoft Employee goes to work, they put Bill Gates in debt to them.

[hfojvt]

77. I have a much less idealized view of people at the top

What would happen if Atlas (Bill Gates) shrugged? Probably the thousands of people under him that do most of the real work would keep right on going.

We all can choose to do whatever we want? No, that is only true when you have a few million in assets. Cash assets. Until then it is a hobson's choice - work, or starve. Choose the lesser of evils of the jobs that are available, assuming anything is even offered. Buy a very expensive lottery ticket otherwise known as a degree and hope that it pays off.

Choices have consequences. Unless you are George W. Bush, then you can drive drunk, use cocaine, skip out on Vietnam and TANG, fail at every company that's given to you, and still end up as President. Please don't assume I am sixteen years old and step away from the Horatio Alger/Ayn Rand BS.

[rateyes]

94. Those choices had consequences for Bush, too...

and will continue to have consequences. Just look at Bush's daughters, "Jenna & Tonic."

[Madspirit]

110. I guess you're NEVER BEEN FUCKING HOMELESS

I have. I find your answer incredibly stupid and offensive.
Just sayin'....

...and lacks any kind of depth...

Lee

[rateyes]

119. Glad you're not homeless anymore....

how is it that you now have a home? My bet is, you made a choice to get out of that situation.

I'm not talking "comfort," I'm talking "freedom." Now, if you can get over being offended, why don't you try answering the question?

[Madspirit]

138. Actually I was rescued

...and you have no idea what you are talking about. NONE. You have no depth of understanding. No knowledge of psychology. Not even a basic understanding of human nature.

If it were not for the lesbian community and my girlfriend I would still be on the streets. So if you're saying I CHOSE to fuck the right people...well OK then. You're really deep. :rofl:

Lee

[bobbolink]

125. "Stooopid and offensive" It's the 'MUrkin Way, doncha know...

What, Madspirit.... you're wanting a bit of sensitivity and caring?

In what country do you think you are living?

:hug:

[Madspirit]

132. Hey bobbolink!

I know. I can be so stupid. I always think the "Underground" part means something...radical and all.

Yes, I remember all those choices I had when homeless. Which restaurant do I try to pee in the restroom of without being kicked out. If I can't make it to a bush or a restroom somewhere, will people notice my wet jeans? Which grove of bamboo will I not get rousted out of tonight. Do I beg water from that diner or the other diner. What do I do with this whole trash can full of trash the guys in the pickup truck just dumped on my head because I was standing on a street corner with my hand out. Do I shoplift spam or vienna sausages today? Which restaurant might have some burnt food they would share?

Man, all those choices....
Lee

[rateyes]

142. Self-delete

[Name removed]

145. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rateyes]

155. And, I'm going to tell you something about my family

to let you know that I DO know what I'm talking about. When I was a kid, my mom's sister and her two daughters were abused by my uncle...a mean-assed drunk. Nice guy when he was sober...but, wasn't often sober.

She left and took the kids with her...no job, no place to go. My family and others rescued them, moving them from Ohio to Tennessee. My uncle lost his job and ended up on the streets. Every once in a while my uncle would show up at our house looking for help, which was ALWAYS given. My dad and two funeral home workers carried his coffin up a hill to his grave when they found him dead, having hung himself in a jail in St. Paul, VA. Our family did our best to "rescue" him. He chose not to be rescued.

Today, my wife and I have supported a young lady in a children's home...taken from her mother because of neglect, would have been put on the street had not social services found out...her father is in prison. We found out about her when she was five years old...She has now graduated from high school, and so we support another child in the home.

For you to sit there and tell me that I don't know human nature or psychology, or the struggle of homelessness is ludicrous.

The only point I've been making is that everyone is free to make choices. Some have fewer choices than others. And, some like you, have had difficult choices forced on them.

I'm sorry that you had assholes who abused you and put you out on the street. And, I still maintain that it was your good choices that pulled you out of that situation.

Like my uncle, you were given the choice of being "rescued." Unlike my uncle, you chose to accept the help.

I wish the best for you. And, to those who rescued you...they are angels.

[Madspirit]

148. Coward deleted his post...n/t

[rateyes]

152. I deleted the post because I chose to do so...

to spare you what was going to probably taken by you to be cruel. Not because I'm a coward. So, anyone who disagrees with you is OBVIOUSLY a freeper, huh? I'm the furthest thing from being freeper there is...but, say what you want.

Now that you have told the whole story, let's look at it. You were abused...a choice that was made by your abusers, and you were a victim. You had no choice in that. But, I maintain that you DID have a choice in how to react to that situation. You were offered help, and you chose to take it. You made a good choice. You obviously have continued to make good choices, for now you sit at a computer and very eloquenty express your feelings. And, you write well. So, obviously, somewhere along the way you took advantage of education.

You had choices along the way.

My self-deleted post had nothing to do with insulting you. You talked about the life you lived on the streets, and my reply was to the effect that now you sit at a keyboard and post discussions online. You could not have done that without making good choices.

I'm sorry you feel the need to "ignore" me. But, hey, that's your choice. Have a good day.

[Madspirit]

154. My parents were abused and they abused..it's a cycle, not a choice

...and I didn't choose the nuthouse. The state chose it for me. The way you think would only be correct if we were all empty slates. We are not. If you knew ANYTHING about psychology or the brain, for that matter, you would NEVER say the things you say. Yes, anyone who disagrees about this stuff, is most certainly a Freeper.

I completely forgot to put you on Ignore. I won't again.
Lee

[rateyes]

156. So, I guess that means that

you are going to abuse. Your parents were abused, and then they became abusers.... if it's not a choice, but a cycle...then, I guess you HAVE to become an abuser, right?

Or, can you choose to break the cycle? I say, you have a choice not to become an abuser.

Your parents CHOSE to abuse you. The fact that THEY were abused doesn't absolve them from making the choice to abuse you. And, it doesn't give you justification to abuse others.

My father-in-law was abused. He, however, was not an abuser. Your "cycle" over "choice" theory is flawed.

[rateyes]

157. Oh, and BTW...if self

deleting posts makes one a coward, what does putting someone on "ignore" make them? Are you that afraid of conversation?

[Name removed]

162. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rateyes]

166. I guess you forgot again.....

Congratulations on making the choice to get into the field of psychology. Ever heard of Choice Theory? Go to UT in Austin and ask the PhD's in Social Work about it.

You blew up at a hypothetical question I asked about FREEDOM and choices, because I touched a nerve about your homeless situation that happened 40 years ago. And, you never bothered to answer the question.

I'm not talking about COMFORT. I'm talking about FREEDOM. I work 6 days a week (Today's my day off). I pay a mortgage on a home. I have 3 car payments to make (mine, my wife's, my college students')...I have 2 children in college, living on campus and working. I have another one in middle-school.

I am considered wealthy by most people in society. But, if I do not work 6 days a week, I lose my home, my cars...my children will have to attend a different college that they can afford on their own, etc.

I'm enslaved by what I own. That, however, was my CHOICE. Now, I can choose to say "to hell with it," and end up homeless. I'll be a lot less "comfortable," but a lot more "free."

The OP was "do poor people have free will." I was making the point that poor people, for the most part, probably have a lot more free will than rich people do.

I was using a hyperbolic analogy, and you went ballistic because you didn't see the hyperbole. When you calm down enough to hold a civil conversation, perhaps we might find that we actually can agree on something.

And, BTW, I too practice in the field of psychology.

[Madspirit]

170. I didn't put you on Ignore because I looked at all your other posts

You're not totally Right Wing. Maybe you're convincible...

I think we have different definitions. I also suffer from a psychosis, bipolar disorder, which was diagnosed, first, at Beth Israel in Brookline Mass., a Harvard teaching hospital and has been verified many times since. I have PTSD, depression and am pretty agoraphobic. I do not think my parents had choice about abuse. There wasn't a shrink on every corner back then and I think they suffered from many mental illnesses. I do not think ANYONE makes a conscious decision to be poor. Choice has to be known. A person has to be mentally ABLE. I think many are not. When you see a homeless person babbling at the sky, they did not make a choice. I think mental illness is quite prevalent in this world, much more so than is usually said because I think this is a very abusive and hurtful culture. I don't think most are mentally ABLE to make choices.

You have a gay brother teaching in Austin?
Lee

[Madspirit]

171. Also

I've been homeless many times since the first time, have been hospitalized since the first time and still see a therapist often because I have to. They don't allow non-doctors and the mentally ill to prescribe to themselves...<g>.
Lee

[rateyes]

181. I think we have been coming at this from different

angles. I was simply talking about freedom and choices in relation to poverty and wealth. I was talking in generalities. I don't think that the majority of poor people are mentally ill. I'm not sure about the majority of homeless people.

I'm about as left wing as you can get, politically speaking. When it comes to this issue, though, I believe that saying to a person that they have no choices takes away any hope that they have toward changing the behavior that keeps them in poverty, or in any other situation. To say that a poor person has no free will is to give them an excuse not to choose a better life.

I realize that there are exceptions to every rule.

Yes, I have a gay brother who teaches at UT while writing his PhD dissertation. He is a PhD A.B.D. right now.

And, I did not alert on your post that was deleted, btw.

[Madspirit]

189. I Didn't Think You Did

I did not think you alerted on me. Even if you had, my post was out-of-line and needed to be removed.
I think we have basic differences on this issue that will never be resolved. So I will just leave it at that.

Lee

[bobbolink]

177. "And, BTW, I too practice in the field of psychology."

Thanks for the warning.

[rateyes]

179. You're welcome.

People who don't want to change don't need me as a counselor.

[bobbolink]

180. BWAHAHAHAHA!!

AGain, thanks so much for the warning.

Anyone who would go to such hatefulness for "counseling" is in for hell.

God, the ego!

No wonder so many people have seen the shit of therapy, and have chosen other paths.

Get off the fucking pedestal before you hurt yourself.

I'm sure you've already hurt plenty of others with that EGO.

bye now... I'm really grateful for the honest warning.

[rateyes]

184. Once again, you're welcome...

nothing hateful about it. I haven't said one hateful thing. That would be your doing in your posts to me.

And, it's not EGO to say what I said. If a person is not willing to do the work to make the changes he/she needs to make, counseling/therapy/etc. does that person no good. It's a waste of my time and their money. That's why I'm NOT a therapist. There are many fields of psychology. I do counsel once in a while, but not for very long.

And, the reason a lot of people find minimal benefit in therapy is not usually because of the therapist...it's because of the patient's unwillingness to follow the prescribed therapy. And, there are reasons for that, too. Good therapy involves facing the painful truth about one's self. Most people don't have the stomach for it.

So, again. You're welcome.

[bobbolink]

167. You have a book in you, Madspirit! ELOQUENT!

Really, there is so much talent in you.... pleeeeez, speak up like this more!

Yes, your words brought a chuckle, but also ..... the pain..... then the RAGE! :nuke:

underground.... SHIT.

Awareness died. It's only for the cool kids now.

Thank you.... I'd like to keep these words of yours...'K?

:hug: :loveya:

[Madspirit]

173. What's Mine Is Yours bobbolink.

I wish you lived in Austin. I really really do.

Unfortunately, I have to get offline now. My girlfriend just got home. I have to walk the dogs. ...and she hates being a computer widow.

...and thanks for your words about my post. I always love your posts too. Sadly, our posts often fall on deaf ears and dead hearts. People REALLY don't get it. I mean REALLY.

:hug: :loveya:

Lee

[Starbucks Anarchist]

141. Give me $50 billion, and I'll work 24/7, no problem.

I'd still have a hell of a lot more freedom than I have now.

[rateyes]

159. Nobody GAVE Bill Gates

50 billion dollars.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

161. I didn't say they did.

I meant you can't possibly compare Gates' "lack" of freedom with people far less fortunate (which would be just about everybody else).

He could quit his job tomorrow and still live extremely comfortably. A working-class person certainly can't do the same, so they have far less freedom than Gates does.

[rateyes]

163. Comfort and freedom have nothing to do

with one another. And, 50 billion dollars in the form Gates has it, if given to you would make you a lot more comfortable, and also would make you a lot less free.

For example, (a small one at that) would you really give up your ability to go anywhere you want without having to worry about the Paparazzi, or someone recognizing you and asking for an autograph, etc?

Yeah, I know...for 50 billion you could buy seclusion. But, who wants to live in seclusion all the time?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

164. I already live in near seclusion with far less money.

And people asking for autographs and signatures is a minor inconvenience compared to, I don't know, not being able to afford food, clothing and shelter.

[Tyler Durden]

18. You have GOT to be kidding.

The CHOICES of a rich person are asymptotic to infinity. Their WILL to make a given choice is what is limited.

A) I have $10 Million dollars after taxes.
B) I can CHOOSE to endow the Atlanta Aids Research Clinic with $5 million and live on the rest.
C) I am however a selfish bastard who believes I made the money, it's mine and screw everyone else, so I invest, buy stocks, endow my progeny for the rest of the foreseeable future.

This is how that works.

[rateyes]

23. No, I'm not kidding.

Rich people don't own their possessions. Their possessions own them.

[Heidi]

24. The very wealthy also have limitless resources for overcoming

their addiction to "stuff." The poor and middle class do not have the same limitless resources for overcoming the oppressive factors in their lives.

[rateyes]

35. The only way the very wealthy can get over their addiction

to "stuff," as you put it, is to sell it all and give it all away. You talk about "oppressive factors." Tell me, what would those be?

[Heidi]

39. I believe that poverty itself is oppressive.

You don't?

[rateyes]

48. Of course it is,

but one does not HAVE to remain in poverty. He/she is free to choose to work his/her way out of poverty...for some it's harder than others...but it can be done. And, then he/she can choose to take out a 30 year mortgage on a home, and thus enslave him/herself to a banker...which is an oppressive position to be in.

My point is that we all have choices...poor, middle-class, and rich alike, and every choice has consequences. And, the more STUFF one has, the more enslaved a person is...enslaved to their fear of losing that stuff.

My choice in life is to be happy. That doesn't require me to be wealthy.

[Heidi]

52. So, people are poor because they _choose_ to be poor?

And those who remain poor are _choosing_ to remain poor?

[Tyler Durden]

56. Works for all the Republicans I know.

But then I'm a Socialist they tolerate as a form of comic relief.

I just show up, do my job, collect my pay and go home to my family.

[Heidi]

57. My husband's a socialist.

Y'all are alright by me, friend. :pals:

[rateyes]

63. People are born into poverty....

many are raised in poverty. But, we all have choices, and those choices have consequences. One-third (let that figure sink in) of the kids who enter high school never graduate. They drop out. They CHOOSE not to get the degree. They CHOOSE to go to work for a minimum wage job, etc. etc. Their education is offered to them FREE OF CHARGE, and they CHOOSE not to do the work it takes to graduate.

They make other choices as time goes on, and the consequences of those choices will make them either more poor or less poor. Now, those folk can choose to go back to school, get their GED, work themselves through college or technical school (there are kids doing it every day), or do whatever else it takes to climb out of poverty.

And, yes, MANY--and, I dare say the MAJORITY, of poor people in this country have the choice to work themselves out of poverty...which means that remaining in poverty is a choice.

Now, I know that SOME poor people cannot choose to get out of poverty. Some have made so many poor choices along the way that they are now too old to make the choice to work themselves out of poverty. Some have chosen addiction to drugs, and don't have the mental capacity any more to make that choice.

But, being poor is never an excuse for making bad choices. And, having to suffer the consequences of bad choices should not be taken away. That's how we learn to make better choices.

[Madspirit]

133. This is THE stupidest post I've ever read...THE...n/t

[oldhippie]

68. Yes, actually, I know some of them .........

I know several people that CHOOSE to sleep in a lot of mornings, rather than go to work. And then they blame "the Man" for them not being able to hold a job.

A LOT of people choose to be poor.

[Bill McBlueState]

135. read my sig line.

So you can see it twice: "Data" is not the plural of "anecdote."

[oldhippie]

140. Irrelavant comment. The poster asked a question. I gave an answer......

My anecdotes are data.

[Bill McBlueState]

178. i suppose

But they're not useful data, since you have no reason to believe that your observations are a random sampling of the entire population.

[hfojvt]

61. that's just ridiculous though

especially your view of home ownership. I bought this home in November 2001. Paid it off by October 2004. My monthly costs since then have been less than $100 per month. Much less than rent. I paid $35,000 for it, and it is currently assessed at $50,000.

When you say it can be done, I don't think you are being realistic. Do you know what the Iron Man race is? In Hawaii. It is a 4 mile ocean swim, followed by bicycling 126 miles followed by running 26 miles. That can be done. It is humanly possible. Give most people two years to train though, and they will not be able to finish that race, and that race is a little bit easier than escaping poverty.

"For practically every family, then, the ingredients of poverty are part financial and part psychological, part personal and part societal, part past and part present. Every problem magnifies the impact of others, and all are so tightly interlocked that one reversal can produce a chain reaction with results far distant from the original cause. A run-down apartment can exacerbate a child's asthma, which leads to a call for an ambulance, which generates a medical bill that cannot be paid, which ruins a credit record, which hikes the interest rate on an auto loan, which forces the purchase of an unreliable used car, which jeapordizes a mother's punctuality at work, which limits her promotions and earning capacity, which confines her to poor housing. You will meet such a woman in Chapter One. If she or any other impoverished working parent added up all of her individual problems, the whole would be equal to more than the sum of its parts." The Working Poor David K. Shipler page 11

When life dumps a pile of sh*t on you every day, it's not always easy to pretend it's lemonade.

[rateyes]

72. A run down apartment can exacerbate a child's asthma...

and on it goes from there....

Read the paragraph again, then answer this question:

Why is there a child in this picture? And, how is it that this child is living in an apartment where the asthma triggers haven't been removed?

The whole thing starts with somebody, somewhere, sometime, making a bad choice.

[hfojvt]

83. I am looking for sympathy

Where is it again? Oh yes, in the dictionary between sh*t and syphilis.

Why is there a child in the picture? Maybe there used to be a happy couple, but the man turned out to be a scum-bag. Maybe the woman was raped and chose not to abort or adopt. Are those bad choices now? Maybe birth-control does not always work, or all they got at school was 'abstinence education'.

Everyone makes bad choices in their life. If you are wealthy enough though, or your family is, then there is a social network to cover for you. It's ridiculous to pretend that the poor have a monopoly on bad choices. What they have a monopoly on is harsh consequences and poor environments.

My story proves you can make it? Ha. My great-grandfather made it. He gave a house to his daughter, who gave a college education to her sons (from money inherited from a cousin who married into it and then they both died young), who gave a college education to his kids, etc. Plus, I never made anything. I have a house, but I am an unmarried, childless loser working as a janitor.

[rateyes]

87. Where the hell did I say you were looking for sympathy...

and, where the hell did I offer it?

[hfojvt]

90. Where did I say you offered it?

Instead you offered the sh*t and the syphilis, lacking even the compassion of Bush's supposed 'compassionate conservatism'.

[rateyes]

92. Which is more compassionate?

Is it more compassionate to keep a person from suffering the consequences of bad choices, and thus remove any incentive for that person to make better choices, or to allow them to learn from their mistakes by having to suffer the consequences?

I work at a food bank every month. I help give out food to people who come and ask for it. Many of those people get food stamps. They come and get the food we give, and GAMBLE away their food stamps, or sell them to get cash to buy cocaine, and they eat what we give them. Or they sell what we give them for drug money, and get food with the food stamps.

I've put groceries from the food bank in the trunks of fucking BMW's.

Have I HELPED that person by giving him/her food? No, I haven't. All I've done is given that person another month of not having to choose to work themselves out of their situation.

When I KNOW that the above scenario is the case...I won't give such a person food, and have been called worse names than "unsympathetic." But, sometimes it's more compassionate NOT to have sympathy.

[rateyes]

91. This is what you wrote:

"I bought this home in November 2001. Paid it off by October 2004. My monthly costs since then have been less than $100 per month. Much less than rent. I paid $35,000 for it, and it is currently assessed at $50,000."

So, YOU purchased a home and PAID IT OFF IN THREE YEARS. You put an average of $15,000 a YEAR into purchasing that home. That's more money than I put into my home mortage each year. That means that you paid a helluva lot of principal on that loan in a damned hurry. You now have NO MORTGAGE, you have a roof over your head with expenses of less than $100.00 a month..and, if you sold your home today you would pocket $15,000 profit....IN THREE FUCKING YEARS.

And, I'm supposed to feel sorry for you? Give me a break.

You have no children? To whom are you obligated except for yourself?

So, what are you doing with the $15,000 a year that you are NOT using to pay for a home anymore? That kind of money will pay for a helluva lot of education.

You don't have to be a janitor all your life if you don't want to. You can take out government loans for education, and don't have to pay back a cent until you're out of school.

The only person keeping you where you are is you. You call yourself a "loser." Well, you can't become a "winner" unless you are willing to step up to the plate and play the game.

And, yes...marrying a scumbag is a bad choice. And, while I have sympathy for a woman who is raped and who CHOOSES to keep the child, making that choice, as difficult as it is to make, carries with it some obligations. You're right. Birth control does not always work. A person, therefore, has to take that into consideration before CHOOSING to have sex. And, so what if they had "abstinence only" education? Abstinence is a good choice to make if you don't want to have a baby or risk getting an STD.

[hfojvt]

129. maybe you missed the fact that there were more than two people involved

There was me, which was an example of the fact that it's not all slavery (to the bank, to my mortgage), and then there was 16 or 30 million poor people, who have all made bad choices I guess :eyes:

Did I mention that I'm not sixteen? Or 27 either. I have 8 years of University education and two degrees, but the University of Nebraska refused to give me my diploma in cloth so I could use it to clean urinals. At least then I could get some use out of an economics degree.

"The only person keeping me where I am is me." So true. I feel kinda bad that I refused to hire myself for all the good jobs I applied for, but at least that has kept me from being the kind of arrogant or deluded person who thinks 'anybody can make it in this country if they try hard enough.' That is absolutely true, of course, because, by definition, anybody who does not make it simply did not try hard enough.

[rateyes]

139. I'm not sixteen or 27 either...

and have two degrees. And, I just finished up another semester of school as I consider a career change at age 47. You got knocked down...who is responsible to make sure you get back up?

Economics degrees, huh? Ever thought about going into business for yourself? Economic majors do that all the time. If no one else will employ you, then employ yourself.

You bought and paid for a house in three years. You did something most people don't do. Now, what are you going to do? If you decide to clean urinals the rest of your life, then fine...there's no shame in that.

But, if you don't want to do that, you don't have to. You still have options. You have no one to whom you are obligated. You don't have a mortgage, you don't have any children, you don't have a spouse. YOU ARE FREE TO CHOOSE.

So what if you're not 16 or 27. So what if you're 50 or 60? You have the choice over the next couple of years to either keep doing what you are doing, or go to school and get the skills necessary to work on cars, or do other things....with an economics degree and the skills to do body work on cars, you could open your own body shop. Either way, you're going to be doing something in that time. Do something that will help yourself go where you want to go.

You act like you are enslaved. You are freer than most people I know. You have options. You have all kinds of choices. Who is holding you back?

[rateyes]

73. BTW, the first paragraph of your post...

PROVES that it can be done.

[NashVegas]

40. That's the Theory, But the Social Contract Was Destroyed Long Ago

You'll have noticed by now, the new medievalism and its corresponding architecture. Around me I see McCastles going up complete with turrets, battlements and now even baileys.

What I don't see contained within them are any outbuildings, other than the garage. The owners want all the trappings they imagine came when it was all fiefdoms, tradesmen & peasants, yet they have no concept of the underlying morality of the architecture they're copping.

[rateyes]

54. I hear that...

but, I'd rather be a peasant in that world.

[Tyler Durden]

58. To quote MIB/Tommy Lee Jones

Agent Jay: "It's better to have loved and lost...."
Agent Kay: "TRY it."

When you've lived in a tent in a Cemetary in WINTER for 3 months like I did in the mid 70's, like I did.

Like the girl in LABYRINTH, you keep talking about "fair," I wonder what your frame of reference is.

[rateyes]

80. I never said life is fair....

It's not fair. Neither is "unfair" an excuse for not making good choices.

My only point is that, tough as it may be, complaining about how unfair a situation is won't make it any better, or any more fair. The only person that can get you out of a bad situation is YOU. We all have choices. We can work outselves out of a bad situation, or we can sit around and play the blame game.

OK, the girl is in the labryinth. That's bad. But, there is a way out of the labryinth. It's a difficult task to be sure. But, there is a way out. The question is, will the price be paid to get out?

My frame of reference. I went to public schools. I chose not to drop out. I chose to study and get the grades I needed to go to college. I went to a local college and worked myself through school as a janitor. I then worked myself through grad school in various part-time jobs.

I then went to work after getting my Masters making $15,000 a year. I kept working. I got married. I have three daughters. My wife and I together work to be able to support them and help them through school.

It all started with a choice to get my high school diploma, and then my choice to work to pay for school.

[Tyler Durden]

84. Spoken like a true "Bootstrapper."

You did it ALL on yer own, got no help from NOBODY.

We have a speaking engagement for you at the "Clarence Thomas Institute for 'I got mine, get yours'"

[rateyes]

99. I did not say that...

you put words in my mouth. Of course I didn't make it on my own. Nobody does. My birth gave me more opportunities than some, and less opportunities than others.

Where the hell did that come from?

At the same time, I don't blame society for not having the opportunities that others have had. And, I don't blame the PEOPLE who have had the opportunities I haven't had. And, I try to help those who were born with less opportunities to have more.

BUT, I do blame people who HAVE OPPORTUNITIES, as few as they may be, for NOT TAKING THOSE OPPORTUNITIES, and then GRIPING AND MOANING AND BITCHING about not having any opportunities.

That's bullshit.

And, as far as your "Clarence Thomas" speaking tour. No thanks. He is a guy who took adavantage of the opportunities given him through affirmative action, and then voted to take those same opportunities from others. I don't do that. Your comment was off base.

[Tyler Durden]

103. Now you are switching sides.

You claimed EVERYONE could take advantage of education and advancement, but they CHOSE NOT TO. HAVING the opportunity is the same as being one of the FEW not denied the choice, or having the choice removed by circumstance.

[rateyes]

105. I did not switch sides...

Please explain to me...other than a person who is TOTALLY mentally handicapped, how a person's choice to go to school or not has been taken away by circumstance. Are you telling me that YOU can't go to school? If so, then tell me why you don't have that choice.

I'm not saying that's it's not very difficult for some. But, neither is it impossible. It comes down to one question:

"Am I willing to pay the price to get what I want to get?" If not, then you don't really want it.

I can say all day long how much I WANT to be a scratch golfer. But, if I don't practice (which I don't. I don't play golf..hypothetical here) everyday....I really don't WANT it....at least not bad enough to do what is required to make it happen.

[Tyler Durden]

131. You really don't grok reality here, do you?

The situations you want to see just don't EXIST anymore. It is IMPOSSIBLE for some to make the choices you espouse, and don't tell me that abandoning a family, ditching needed employment, defaulting on loans to pursue your "CHOICES" by saying:

""Am I willing to pay the price to get what I want to get?" If not, then you don't really want it."

are viable options; that is infantile. We all have our honorable and moral obligations, along with economic constraints that make your "CHOICES" silly.

You go ahead; make your sweeping generalities about choices. I can wish the country to be Democratic Socialist, but according to your logic (or the lack thereof) if I don't build a barricade at the end of my street and get shot declaring the "revolution," I didn't want it bad enough.

You are a Absolute Relativist; you believe all things are possible if you just TRY, and if you don't get them, well, you didn't try hard enough. This is not an attitude that most grown ups over the age of 50 know to be viable.

[rateyes]

144. You ALMOST got me right...

I do NOT believe that all things are possible if you just try.

I DO believe that NOTHING is possible if you DON'T try.

Life is full of risks. To use a baseball analogy:

I want to hit a homerun. I can't do that unless I stand up to the plate and swing at the pitches thrown. I might NOT hit a homerun. I MIGHT strike out. I might get a pass. I might hit a single, a double, or a triple. And, I JUST MIGHT HIT A HOMERUN.

But, I am GUARANTEED not to hit a homerun, if I don't stand in the batter's box and TRY.

And, the thing about life is---you are given a new chance every day to get in the box.

You talked about "abandoning family, etc." I don't espouse that you do that. The fact that you HAVE a family was itself, however, a CHOICE that you made. Today's choices carry with them consequences that might LIMIT tomorrow's choices. But, the fact remains--NO ONE IS STUCK where they are in life. And, no one who is reaping bad consequences for bad choices has room to complain about it.

The ONLY person I have no sympathy for is the one who says, "I can't," when they won't even try. And, there are legions of people like that in the world.

[Tyler Durden]

96. AND if you're STILL deluding yourself....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=6829433&mesg_id=6829433

THAT is why Social Economics limit CHOICES.

[rateyes]

101. The guy is in college...

sounds like he made a good choice. Now, he has another one...he can pay the $300 or not. If he wants the degree, he'll pay it. And, then after the class is over, he'll go back to the bookstore, and sell it back for $200.00, thus meaning the book actually only cost him $100.00.

I never said that choices weren't LIMITED. My beef is with people who don't take advantage of the choices they HAVE.

That's a guy who said he was one of the "working poor." Yet, HE'S GOING TO COLLEGE. How does that happen? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I'll tell you how. It happens by, whether he bitches and moans about the price of it....PAYING THE PRICE. Making the choice. It will be a choice that pays off for him in the future. And, he'll be glad he did.

[Tyler Durden]

102. I don't give up, but I DO give up on you.

The number of choices that can be made like that are limited. If you do not see this, then you have not experience them from that position, OR you are well above that status and in denial.

Both can be overcome. But you have to CHOOSE to do so.

[rateyes]

106. LOL.

I'll choose to keep choosing. Have a good one.

[NashVegas]

126. And We Aren't In That World Anymore

Which is the point. There is no Noblesse Oblige in the USA, circa 2007.

[lumberjack_jeff]

66. I really wish we'd stop conflating "rich" with "high income". n/t

[rateyes]

109. I agree with that. nt

[Katherine Brengle]

43. Gag.

[Tyler Durden]

60. Beat me with the "Rich Stick" all day long....

Just watch what good things for people I can do with the cash.

[rateyes]

74. Tell me that where you are in life...

isn't a result of your choices.

Everything is about choices.

[Heidi]

46. So, are you saying that it really is a just world that we all inhabit?

Really, I'm interested in hearing more. Thank you.

[rateyes]

86. Hell no, it's not a just world...

And, I have a moral obligation to help those who can't help themselves. And, I take that seriously.

At the same time, some of the things we call "help" doesn't help...we simply enable people to keep making bad choices. To keep giving food to a person who already has enough food stamps to feed themselves and their family with, so that they can gamble with the food stamps, or sell the food I've given them to get money to purchase crack, etc...doesn't help. It may make me "feel good" to THINK I've helped. But, I haven't helped. In fact, I've made the situation worse.

No, it's not a just world. No damned way. But, if I'm oppressed, sitting around and complaining about how unjust the world is, won't make me any less oppressed. The only thing that will do that is to make the choices necessary to overcome the obstacles put in my way by my oppressors.

Beyond that, I have an obligation to stand with others who are oppressed against the oppressors. In the meantime, though, what I make of my life is on my shoulders.

[cgrindley]

16. Metaphysically and physically, no one has free will

we live in a wholly deterministic universe, there is no free will, everything, including our future thoughts are fully explicable through physics and math... cf Laplace's demon.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

151. Einstein also thought "God doesn't play dice." He was wrong. -nt

[cgrindley]

187. Quantum uncertainty is just a theoretical placeholder

the universe is fully deterministic, mark my words. This quantum uncertainty nonsense will eventually be discarded just like the ether.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

192. I see probability being part of the fundamental laws of the universe displeases you.

Why?

Me, I find a deterministic Universe to be a dead Universe. Essentially, nothing actually exists except an N-dimensional eternal statue. Boring.

Anyway, if the Universe is actually deterministic (doesn't look that way right now from what we know), evidence for it will show up sooner or later.

[cgrindley]

194. I'm holding out for an oscilating universe

wherein everytime the universe expands and then contracts determinism forces everything to play out in exactly the same way... that we have always had this exchange and will always have it... a perverse sort of immortality, repeated eternally in all directions of time...

[Tyler Durden]

17. Free will is a construct: CHOICES are reality.

Everyone is free within the confines of their own skull. CHOICES are forced on all of us by the circumstances of reality. I have the free will to be a concert pianist: my right hand was 30% crippled at the age of 11, so in reality I cannot CHOOSE to be a concert pianist no matter how strong my will.

The poor may have the WILL to rise from poverty, but society will limit their right to CHOOSE, therefore limiting the outcome of Will and Choice.

[rateyes]

33. I respectfully disagree...

Society doesn't limit your right to choose. A poor person can choose to remain poor, or can choose to whatever it takes to get the skills and education he/she needs to climb out of poverty. We can lend a hand, if they are willing to take it, but no one HAS to remain in poverty.

There is a price to be paid for everything.

My brother IS a concert pianist. He can also sit down at a pipe organ, using only his FEET, and play concert masterpieces. Beautiful concert pieces can be played with ONE HAND. A person is only limited by the choices he/she makes.

[Tyler Durden]

47. I suggest you ASK him how many pieces are written for left hand only.

After the near destruction of my right hand followed by three years of physical therapy restored MOST of my ability to .....

I don't know why I started justifying myself to you. Leave it to say, I applaud your brother and suggest you mention me to him and listen to what he has to say: you just might grow some sensitivity.

As to choices, at trick question: how many MANAGERS are there at McDonald's? Answer: ONE.

In this country we do not value the labor performed at the bottom of the scale. SOMEONE must flip burgers or no burgers will be flipped. You are naive to assume that ANYONE can climb off the bottom rung: Capitalism INSISTS there be a well-populated bottom rung, and if all of your poor elevated themselves, then pH D's will flip burgers.

Poverty is alleviated NOT by making managers of everyone and sending all the poor to college: it is alleviated by VALUING the labor performed at all levels of the economy.

By the way, Society does not limit the RIGHT to choose, it limits the ABILITY to follow through on choices. Ask any black person who remembers the '50's.

[muriel_volestrangler]

67. Going off topic, I do know a one armed pianist

John Railton lost his left arm to cancer, and after that mainly concentrated on conducting, but also plays with a partner as "Three Hands at One Piano", and has also performed some things solo.

John Railton (1949) performed Ravel's Concerto for the left hand in the Great Hall, Dartington on October, though with the right hand. He has also released a CD of music for one hand.

http://www.ram.ac.uk/whoswho/Alumni/Academy+people.htm

Kate Elmitt and John Railton with their “Three hands at one piano” (John lost an arm due to cancer years ago) who play anything from Bach and Mozart to Ravel and Cyril Smith;

http://www.hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/concerts.htm

[NashVegas]

122. This Is Starting to Remind Me of an Old M*A*S*H Episode

..

[rateyes]

75. How many people work at McDonald's flipping burgers

all their lives? I'm not insensitive to you. You ask the question, "how many pieces are written for left hand only? I don't know. How many pieces have YOU chosen to write?

[Tyler Durden]

78. You speak without experiencing the issues of others.

Come back and talk to me when YOUR life has been turned upside down, AND you've been homeless.

[rateyes]

104. You don't know my experiences...

and, I don't know yours. You talked about "how many pieces are written for the left hand only?"

What's keeping YOU from writing such pieces? That's all I asked. The only expense involved in that is pen, paper, and time. What you choose to do with your time, is on you.

[rateyes]

128. Your construct about the "managers" at McDonald's is flawed...

You assume that there are not young people entering the work force every day flipping burgers. And, as for the manager, what was the FIRST job he or she had at McDonald's. Most of them---flipping burgers.

[lumberjack_jeff]

70. There are constraints on everyone's free will.

Your hand constrains your free will, allowing you a smaller spectrum of choices.

No one's free will guarantees success. No one can choose to be a concert pianist, they can only choose to try.

The poor are constrained by poverty. They can still choose to attempt to become rich, but they begin with a significant handicap.

[Common Sense Party]

108. Balderdash. We cannot always choose our circumstances...

...that is, we don't get a choice as to how we're born, how we're raised, what our natural talents or limitations are.

But we all can choose how we REACT and RESPOND to those conditions in which we find ourselves.

We can CHOOSE to be defeated by circumstances

Or we can CHOOSE to overcome or be happy without

Attitude is always a choice.

Viktor Frankl proved that, I think.

[rateyes]

112. You speak common sense. nt

[Annces]

19. Assuming free will has to do with the soul

Then yes, everyone has free will. You can choose to align with God or not. You can choose to do harm to yourself and others or not. Death to the body is not death to the soul.

[AllegroRondo]

20. Free will, but limited choices

[LanternWaste]

27. Even the poorest among us have choice...

Even the poorest among us have choice. To argue otherwise is to underestimate the human condition (or overstate a political justification)

A man's honor is not a commodity that can be sold or traded, despite the overuse of the trendy, bumper-sticker metaphor. The choice to maintain it or discard it is always a constant. If the choice is constant, the will behind the choice must be free.

[TahitiNut]

44. Yep. Sophie had a choice.

After all, if she didn't then they wouldn't have had a title for the movie, right?

:eyes:

[Tyler Durden]

49. I get the feeling many here have not had to make a true tough choice.

It tends to mature you very fast, does it not?

[TahitiNut]

53. Indeed. But it's tough to understand the poor in Anaheim while living in Disneyland.

:silly: :dunce:

[LanternWaste]

95. It's an unfortunate education.

It's an unfortunate education that may be easily missed or dismissed.

But I cannot, in good conscience minimize the word 'slavery', which becomes I think, the de facto end-result of denying the concept free-will to anyone in a particular American demographic or economic scale.

[Tyler Durden]

98. No one is "denying" anyone "free will":

But Capitalist Robber Baron ECONOMIC slavery limiting the real choices of individuals is REAL and practiced very well in this country.

[LanternWaste]

107. In response to the OP...

In response to the OP, which asked a most direct question '...is free will a reality (in this country)?'

I maintain that it is. I realize that many choices are limited by class, but our choices are limited by almost every conceivable action.

My choices are limited in part due to my meager earnings-- but I am in no way a slave, economic or otherwise. Obviously, I am not free to buy a 1.85 million dollar home, yet I have a multitude of other choices I make (and indeed, must make) on a daily basis-- indicating an inordinate amount of Free Will.


Never absolutely Free, never absolutely Confined.

[TahitiNut]

130. Liberty and free-will are NOT synonymous. One is the expression of the other.

:shrug:

We're at the point where fundamental civil liberties are being converted to entitlements - available to the highest bidders only. It's appalling.

[bobbolink]

127. Dadblame it all, Tahitit Nut!

You KNOW those Jews in the camps had a CHOICE!

I Know you KNOW that!

:evilgrin:

[gollygee]

29. Too complicated

to some extent they do, but to another extent they can be coerced into some actions due to poverty and the innate need to survive.

[begin_within]

30. No, they have to pay for it just like everyone, only at much higher rates.

[Imagevision]

31. SiCKO Tidbit; "healthy people are harder to control"

[Jed Dilligan]

32. Nobody has perfectly free will

Free will is the illusion that we have rational control over our instincts and intuitions.

On the "volunteer army is really an economic draft" issue, I disagree with that statement. People from every income level volunteer if their instincts and intuition tell them that Uncle Sam and blowing up stuff make a great boss and an excellent pursuit. People from every income level avoid the military because they find it creepy or downright evil. It mostly has to do with the attitudes you were brought up with and whether or not there were mentors in your life (parents or teachers, usually) who were able to give you mental defenses against the bullshit militaristic propaganda that inundates our society.

[JVS]

146. interesting

[TahitiNut]

36. Absent 'free will' there could be no coercion, bribery, blackmail, or tyranny.

Quite the opposite of what you imply, there is no contradiction between the two. The latter, in effect, would have nothing to influence if it didn't exist.

Sophie had 'free will' ... but so did the Nazi. I guess the question should be whether you want to identify with the Nazi or with Sophie. It's your choice.

[porphyrian]

37. Yes and no.

Will cannot be anything but free unless the individual believes differently. However, since the beginning of recorded history, humans have tricked other humans into believing and following things and people that attempt to control or crush that will for their own gain. These systems of control, which often limit active freedoms through restrictions, peer pressure and punishment, tend to convince people that their will is also restricted. But our will is the one thing that can be totally free if we allow it, and despite what some would have us believe, that is a good thing. We can think and believe anything we want. It is only when we act on those thoughts and beliefs that we threaten someone else's system of control and risk punishment, and that is sometimes a risk worth taking.

[NashVegas]

41. Yes - Most Just Don't Know It

...

[bamacrat]

42. Everyone has free will, but only the rich are allowed to express it.

The poor/middle class are policed and arrested when they express their free will.

[bemildred]

45. You are confusing free will with freedom of action.

Not the same thing at all.

[slackmaster]

51. Every person's economic situation acts as a coercive agent

Even people with lots of money.

Poor people will always have free will, until we start curtailing rights based on economic status.

As an example, a common theme among some conservatives is to deny the vote to people receiving public assistance. That would be obviously wrong.

[mondo joe]

55. Of course. A lesser range of options, certainly, but still free will and choices.

[IndianaJones]

59. they have the free will to pull themselves up by the bootstraps. nt.

[lumberjack_jeff]

64. It's not about the income, it's about the wealth

Your question misses the point. A person who works for $10/hour and a person who works for $80k/year both have extreme constraints on their free will. In fact, there's a good case to be made that the person who makes more has, in some ways, bigger constraints because who walks away from a good job?

Freedom comes from independence, independence comes from wealth.

[nealmhughes]

71. Everyone has free will. What many are assuming is that free will equates with autonomy.

They are not the same things. Autonomy in society is also different from being autonomous in matters venal.

For example, whether one chooses to lie or not is an issue of free will. Whether one chooses to live on the Upper East Side in a doorman building is a matter of financial autonomy.

Whether one chooses to follow moral, ethical and legal codes is a matter of free will, not autonomy.

One has the free will to poop in one's pants or not. However, those who choose not to but do due to extreme circumstances, have lost a portion of their medical or other autonomy, but not their will not so to do.

I think the question should be "Do the poor have less autonomy than the wealthy?".

[TahitiNut]

76. In short, when the choices of others are involved, the 'free will' of one person ...

... can come in conflict with the 'free will' of another. In all matters economic, this is an issue.

[nealmhughes]

150. Yes, it is most evident in matters of power structures being nonpar.

Economic, political, race, ethnicity, and all other constructs of class and heirarchy. However, free will deals with matters metaphysical and not physical. It is moral, intellectual and ethical choices, which transcend physical concerns.

The hallmark of Enlightenment thinking is that we are all born in equality and spend our entire lives trying to thwart the choices of others or seeking revenge upon those who try/do thwart ours or else passively accepting nonequality.

My example of the Upper East Side apt. is not one of free will, where free will would come into question would be if someone chose not to live in it because they did not like the carpet, not because of a matter of money, but because of view. In other words, the metaphysical aesthetical will trump the physical in this case.

The two are extremely connected, but free will involves the ability to do or not do certain actions that one is physically, intellectually or mentally capable of doing, i.e., lying to a policeman, sleeping on one's back or the left side, eating boiled or fried eggs or no eggs at all if one has eggs in the house, etc.

Wanting to eat eggs and not being able to afford eggs is not a matter of free will, but of economic inequality.

I think a lot of people confuse the two concepts, but I have had the privledge of a lot of theology classes and philosophy and historiography, and this is one of the overbearingly boring arguments in all these fields. . . do we have choices or does a "system" make them for us? I believe that we can transcend all but the physical and matters beyond our control and that we have the free will to desire better more equitable society, though we may be thwarted by our physical/cultural/economic circumstances.

[ecstatic]

79. I was thinking about that the other day: Like the jackass who goofs off in class

And doesn't take school as seriously as his/her peers. How much responsibility does that person have for his/her dire financial situation, years or decades later?

[rateyes]

115. There you go....

IMO, that jackass is ENTIRELY responsible for their situation. And, the truth of the matter is, that jackass can, even decades later, choose to go back to school and turn their situation around. It will just cost more this time around.

[flashl]

81. How to apply metaphorical 'free will'?

I understand the metaphorical arguments about free will. Accepting this, I am having a hard time discerning what level of ‘free will’ could a person trapped in human trafficking exercise?

[BlooInBloo]

82. The "Free" in "free will" does NOT mean something like....

.... "not subject to any considerations whatsoever".

For if it did, there would obviously be no free will anywhere, and a large amount of our discourse would be found to be at least false, and at worst nonsensical - which is manifestly not the case.

[Bill McBlueState]

137. but...

A large amount of our discourse is certainly false or nonsensical. At least in this thread.

[aikoaiko]

85. Genes (and their products) interacting with environment = behavior

For all living creatures.

[WI_DEM]

88. Do the greedy, corporate bastards have free will?

Are their decisions to e considered valid, or is their wealth a coercive agent. If they do not have free will, then at what income level does free will kick in?

(and why do they get away with so much more than the poor?)

[AnotherGreenWorld]

89. no one has free will

[Breeze54]

93. What does that have to do with the price of fish on Sunday?

:shrug:

[JVS]

113. Just answer the fucking question

[Breeze54]

114. It's a stupid fucking question and poll ! Nope, not playing your stupid game.

[JVS]

116. fine, then get out of my thread if you don't want to discuss the topic of the thread

and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[Breeze54]

117. You should be saying that to all the other dissenters too!

You don't like the answers you get, so you get nasty?

That you George? I thought you were on vacation? :shrug:

[JVS]

118. You didn't dissent. You questioned the legitimacy of discussing the issue.

IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE, GET YOUR OWN FUCKING THREAD.

If they still had the superblock function, I'd use it to keep you from disrupting my thread.

And YOU should be either answering or getting the fuck out instead of telling me what I should be telling the other people in the thread.

Welcome to Ignore!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

97. Anybody With A Normally Functioning Brain Has Free Will. Income Is Irrelevant.

[LWolf]

100. Other.

Define what you mean by "free will." Every person, obviously, and ultimately, has "free will" to decide some things.

Is opportunity the same as free will? Most of us probably have the will to do some things we will never have the opportunity to do. We have the opportunity to do many things that will restrict our "free will."

In reality, "free will" is regulated by responsibilities, consequences, and opportunity.

Poor people obviously have fewer opportunities than people who have more resources. That certainly restricts their choices to a large degree. Lack of opportunity limits some exercise of free will.

I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all number of dollars that suddenly allows "free will."

If I had unfettered free will, I would probably need billions, if not trillions, to accomplish what I would. Does the fact that I can't own my own continent, be my own government, make my own laws, and have my own satellite network mean I don't have free will?

None of us have unfettered free will. We all have limits. Some of those limits are appropriate, some not. Perhaps the better focus would be on providing equal opportunity to learn, and to earn, and allow the will of the individual to determine what to do with the opportunities.

[Madspirit]

111. Does anyone have free will and what is free will and how would we really know...n/t

[Sparkly]

121. Yes, but fewer choices than others. nt

[CaptJasHook]

123. This is a faulty question

You collapse several issues into one. I am also unsure what your definition of Free will is or under what parameters you are discussing.

The standard levels of freedom (simplified from Sartre and other philosophers of note) are:

You are free to decide
You are free to act on that decision
you are NOT free to succeed on your actions.

We all have free will, depending on our circumstances we may not be able to exercise it in a given context.

Poverty, by definition, is a restriction on your success in economic success. It also constrains health and welfare (again do to the economic system).

[JVS]

124. "is a restriction on your success in economic success"

You make it sound as though poverty is some kind of guy waiting for you to make money and then take it away to keep you poor. While I understand that the poor have limited opportunities, I think you have the relationship bacwards. One is poor because they have not had success in getting money, your definition seems to say that one fails to get money because one is poor.

[sofa king]

134. Sure I do. I just have half as many choices.

Pretty much everything comes down to:

I can do ____________, or I can die.

But, just like Rush says, if I choose not to decide I still have made a choice.

[woo me with science]

136. The very question is insulting to poor people.

This reminds me of those who excuse criminality based on income--such arguments are offensive to the hardworking poor who do not commit crimes.

I get really sick of this drive to infantilize people based on income. The poor are just as capable of making good and bad decisions as anyone else.

If not, would you appoint them all guardians to protect them and make their important decisions for them? I'd like to see you go knocking on their doors to propose this idea.

[lumberjack_jeff]

143. Perhaps a better question would have been...

... do poor people have less freedom?

I would have to say yes.

Poverty may not constrain one's will, but it does constrain ones ability succeed at what one intends.

[ulysses]

147. how is poverty not a coercive agent?

Free will exists as an academic construct only. Real life intrudes a bit.

OTOH, maybe I'll will myself a nicely marbled ribeye tonight...

[mondo joe]

165. Life is coercive.

The circumstances of our birth - from economic status to appearance to heredity - all limit our choices.

But we do make choices within those boundaries.

[ulysses]

172. of course.

But we do make choices within those boundaries.

Right. The OP presented a false dichotomy - either you're a free agent or you're coerced with no claim to free will.

Now, about those choices presented to the poor...

[mondo joe]

175. I guess my take is that we all contend with coercive agents, so to the extent that we

all have limitations on being a free agent, the maximum freedom anyone could have still isn't utterly free.

:shrug:

[LeftishBrit]

149. Yes. But their choices are usually more limited than richer people's choices

I also think that the citizens of a society have some free will as to what they want their society to be, and how much they value the prevention and relief of poverty as compared with unlimited opportunities for the few to become and remain rich. Being 'poor' in a welfare state is different from being 'poor' in a country where some people are very rich and a large number are in abject poverty.

[SmokingJacket]

153. No one has free will.

We're all the result of our genes (can't help that) and our environment (I didn't WANT to be born in the 20th century!!) and by things we don't choose. We can't even choose to have will power.

That said, we have to *pretend* we have free will, or the social order would fall apart. :)

[sniffa]

160. i'm stunned

this was posted at 6:45 a.m. on 8/14/07 and at 8:11 p.m. on the same day, there's stiLL no sighting of the invisibLe cLass.

the wireLess must not be reaching the invisibLe cLass today.

[JVS]

169. They must be tuckered out from working 3 consecutive 8 hour shifts at McDonalds.

Either that or they have all been sent to Iraq as part of the "Economic Draft"

[The Inquisitive]

168. If no

than humankind must have only experienced free will within the last century or so, correct? Seeing as the average American today has a higher standard of living than a millionaire in the 1800's and all.

[theHandpuppet]

174. This is truly one of the most offensive threads ever posted to DU

Here's my answer to your poll:

:puke:

[JVS]

176. I'm sorry it is so unpleasant for you but with threads like the following circulating...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3447052

I thought that I should find out exactly where DUers stand on the ability of poor people to make their own decisions.

[pitohui]

182. by definition you are rich if you have free will -- poor and middle class can't choose

the reason we envy the rich is because being rich is having the right to chose what to do with your life and your time

poor and middle class people do not have free will, our entire lives are taken up by the need to chase after money so we can feed ourselves and have a roof over our heads

this is what being rich means and, really, if you stop and think about it, you knew this already unless you are like age 14


if you have to have a job, you don't have free will, what sane person would sell their one and only life to someone else for a buck if they didn't have to, and if you are insane, then you are of course moved by your insanity not by your "will"

[mondo joe]

185. By your definition only god has free will.

All humans have limitations on their choices.

But that leaves a hell of a lot of free will, within the boundaries of one's own life.

It is possible to make choices that make your life easier or harder, that lead to having yet more or yet less choice.

[TexasLady]

186. I read about a lot of arguing, All I wanna do is share..

My parents were both raised poor. Depression kids. Their parents did the absolute best they could with what they had. Took em a while, but Daddy went to a tech college first, in the seventies, and mamma spaced her education out, because of kids....came so close too...

If both parents werent working, they were taking part time or night time classes. Both have fallen short of their bachelor's degrees.
Both maintained their credit, are in retirement age, and struggle, but have saved some. Both are in fair health not great...

I inherit all the fun health crap the parents have. Hell. I even marry young. My choice. Oldest is 23 youngest is 8, and there are four of em. My choice again.

Good, respectable kids. Two high school grads, oldest has some fun, realizes convenience store clerking pays shit, joins little sister in first year in college. Thank God. THIER choice. Both over 18.

Just like their majors, whether or not to have kids, whether or not to start family or whether or not to start college....from here on out, their choice. However, I cut sweet deal, say stay in school, no full time job needed, part time job if fun money needed, just make good grades...Same for all my kids...have a 14 and an 8 yr old behind oldest two... It is a partnership...your grades and your classes ARE your job...otherwise, LEAVE. Both are still hanging here at home so far....

I always like the saying from 'Look Who's Coming to Dinner' Sidney's character put it like this...

"I owe my parents NOTHING, but my CHILDren EVERYTHING'

Lots of choices in a small amount of time..what's cool is that I probably made a TON of bad choices, but the good things just keep happening anyway!

[JVS]

188. Thanks for sharing.

[Madspirit]

190. Last Thing To Say On This

This is an inane thread that doesn't ask the right questions. To some degree we all have free will or something that looks like free will. To some degree we don't as we can't control happenstance. The questions that would actually have depth would be something about the limited choices for the poor, a sociological analysis, something. As is, the question is just a hollow shell, with no meaning or substance.

Lee

[mdmc]

191. Jesus had free will

Of course the poor have free will. It is their choices that are effected by their poverty.

[question everything]

193. You can ask the same question about the rich

I remember sitting at a meeting where most were wealthy - professionals, business owners (and myself, a salaried worker). It was 1988 and most of us were Democrats and the one who was headed the meeting commented how most would vote "against their economic interest."

There are many wealthy Democrats who, if their personal wealth were the only issue, would vote Republican but they don't.

(Which is why going after Clinton for being a "corporate troll" is ridiculous).