Transgender patrons in bar bathrooms lead to lawsuit.

[AZBlue]

The dispute began late last year when Anderson asked Michele deLaFreniere and some other patrons to leave the night club because they had "freaked out" women customers by using the women's rest rooms.

When the transgender patrons tried to use the men's room, they complained to Anderson that male patrons harassed them and took their pictures.

"It was determined that the safest course for the protection of all was to exclude these particular individuals because their conduct was creating tension at the night club," Anderson said.

DeLaFreniere, who is chairman of the Scottsdale Human Relations Commission and a city employee, said it was a matter of discrimination and filed the complaint.

Chuck Kelhoffer, Anderson's attorney, said the bar owner is accused of discrimination on the grounds of sexual stereotyping. The argument has been used primarily in employment cases.

Anderson said that he has no bias against transgender individuals, but could not afford to put in a third rest room specifically for that group.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/scottsdale/articles/0806netransgender0807-ON.html

OK, first of all...if you are going to post something rude or disrespectful toward transgender men and women, go somewhere else. I don't know that will happen too much here on DU, but it's been a strange place lately, so I just wanted to say that up front.

Here's why I'm posting this article. My first reaction was "what an asshole" and "he'd better not expect me to donate to his defense fund." However, then I was looking up the term transgender to see how to properly apply the term male or female (ie, should I use their biological sex or their sexual identity?) and saw this from the PFLAG-Talk/TGS-PFLAG Virtual Library: "The largest subgroup of transgendered persons are cross-dressers who are mainly heterosexual men, although there are also women who cross-dress. Apart from their occasional cross-dressing, they lead lives that are quite ordinary in all other respects. Most cross-dressers are married and many have children, so they have much to lose from their transgendered state being revealed. They also wish to remain in the sex they were born, unlike transsexuals." (http://www.critpath.org/pflag-talk/tgprimer.htm)

So, what is the appropriate answer? No matter what, this guy was a jerk to throw them out and not try to reach a solution that worked for both parties. He is guilty of discrimination in my book.

However, now I'm left wondering if a transgender woman should use the men's room or the women's room? I'm confused. I mistakenly thought that most transgender men and women were homosexual, so at first it seemed to me most appropriate for a transgender woman to use the woman's restroom. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

But, now after reading that definition, if the transgender woman is heterosexual (ie, a man who is dressed like a woman and is sexually attracted to women), then is it appropriate for them to use the women's restroom? After all, I wouldn't want a man who is dressed like a man and is attracted to women using the same bathroom as me, so why does another set of clothing make a difference?

So I pause - but only for a moment, because I have lesbian friends and we use the same bathroom, so what's the big deal?? (and, yes, before anyone asks, I don't mind if any of my gay male friends use the same bathroom as me. as a matter of fact, we have shared a bathroom before, but that's a whooooole other story)

Should it be left up to the individual to go by the "honor system" and simply use the bathroom appropriate for their situation?

I'm not asking this to be rude, disrespectful or inflammatory - I'm just curious and confused now.

Oy! Unisex bathrooms anyone??

[sailor65]

1. The only logical solution

....that I see for the future is going to be a third bathroom category. Regardless of how I or anyone feels about "Which" bathroom they should be using, the women at the core of this story have the absolute right to be comfortable and secure when they are using the bathroom. No one has the right to tell women that they have to share a bathroom with males. No way, no how. And no one should blame the bar owner so fast, because he or she did not create the situation. It's easy to Monday morning quarterback and say "He should have........" but logistically, very few places are set up to deal with this yet. It's not up to private business owners to solve a human relations problem.

There must be a way to solve it, but you can't step on the right of women to be secure while vulnerable in order to solve it.

[pnwmom]

2. I agree. And welcome to DU, sailor65! n/t

[sailor65]

44. Thank You

As I read down this topic, isn't it funny how many who claim to want equal rights for all are so eager to throw away the existing rights of some in order to increase the rights of others, rather than actually solving a problem?

And farther down, the one about "Utter ignorance about about gender dysphoria and transgenders."
Gimme a break. Should the women using the bathroom (Which is a much more vulnerable state for a woman than it is for a man) have to try to decide whether the penis swinging next to her is a true "Transgender (an oxymoron in this context, BTW)" or something else? No, they can have their own space, or they can use the men's room, since they don't worry me any. If the men in there make fun of them or bother them, then deal with the men on that count.


Maybe I'm just too old-fashioned and chauvanistic for such an enlightened group, but I feel we are greatly illustrated by how we care for, honor, and protect our women.

[Maddy McCall]

47. You can reply to me by locating my post and hitting the "reply" button.

As for the rest of your post, I have to agree with at least one part of it.

"Maybe I'm just too old-fashioned and chauvanistic for such an enlightened group..."

Yep.

[sailor65]

76. Yah

I'll have to get used to the unusual format (i.e. reply routing).

[LostinVA]

58. OMFG -- what a post

Yeah, I think you ARE too old-fashioned and chauvanistic for such an enlightened group.

[pnwmom]

81. Oh, yeah, we're all so enlightened.

Tell me, enlightened one, if hetero men in ladies clothes are allowed in women's bathrooms,
what's to stop a predator from taking advantage of this situation?

[sailor65]

83. Exactly

And don't anyone doubt for a minute that there are way too many of them out there that will.

[Maddy McCall]

92. Are all predators men?

Is it men stealing children out of hospitals?

Like I said below, the only case of child murder in a restroom in recent history was done by a man, dressed as a MAN, in a women's bathroom.

You're reaching for straws.

[sailor65]

117. But it's not just murder we're talking about.

It's the countless other crimes that don't make CNN. Until you've spent some time working in that area, you can't imagine how often and how terribly such things happen.

[Maddy McCall]

120. I'm a first responder...I've never answered a call that involved...

a child being molested in a restroom by a crazed cross-dresser.

I'm fully aware of the stuff that happens--but I've yet to come across the psychopathic cross-dressing child-molester of your imagination.

[sailor65]

125. Unless you are a Police Officer

You wouldn't. Our First Responders are not the ones that typically deal with them.

[Maddy McCall]

126. I work in close association with police officers.

My best friends are deputies and police officers. We eat, drink, and work together. First responders don't just answer fire calls. We respond to medical calls and emergencies--everything from heat exhaustion to lost children. Nothing goes on in my town, involving the local authorities, that I don't know about.

Are you a police officer? Show me one instance in which a child was molested or harmed in a bathroom by a cross-dresser.

I say we just keep the wimmens and chillens in the house, 'cause it's a dangerous world out there. Someone might get hurt!

[sailor65]

134. No, I'm not

a Police Officer. But if you indeed work that closely, and if you indeed are a First Responder, then you know the reason I can't publish specific examples is the same reason you don't find them plastered all over the internet, as well as the reason YOU can't post specific examples. The few intact pivacy laws left are meant to protect the victims.

But I will try to take a few cases I have and generalize them sufficiently to satisfy your request..

[Maddy McCall]

137. I am "truly" a first responder. I'm sure that it's uncomfortable for you...

to know that women are out there protecting you. Imagine THAT!

Actually, if a child were molested in a bathroom by a cross-dresser, it'd be in the press big-time. Indictments and prosecution cannot take place behind closed doors. Sure, the child's identity might be obscurred, but the event itself would certainly receive press.

And I'd hear about it.

So, please cite one instance in which a child was molested by a cross-dresser in a women's bathroom.

All of the tangents that you're taking do not distract me from your insane argument.

[sailor65]

141. Huh?

Why would you assume that a woman protecting me or one of our kids is a problem? Because most of our consumers are female, the bulk of our aid teams are women. What a silly assertion.

You are trying to pigeonhole the argument into "One instance of a child molested by a Cross-Dresser." You're good at your wordcraft, but it doesn't change the fact that even if you only think it's a "Might happen," it's too much of a risk. why are we so willing to scream that Voter ID's are a bad thing because one voter "Might" be disenfranchised as a result, but we're not willing to prevent the risk of harm in this area? Where are our priorities?

I told you I'd try to generalize one of our cases to present to you, and I will. But it will take time.

[Maddy McCall]

144. This thread is about transsexuals using the women's bathroom.

You said above that the potential danger that a child could be molested by a man dressed as a woman is reason enough to keep transgenders/transsexuals out of bathrooms.

I'm still waiting on you to prove that that danger is real, by showing ONE instance in which a cross-dresser has molested a child in a women's bathroom.

Voter ID IS a bad thing. Poll taxes of the past prove that.

Still waiting on that one instance that fits the topic or scope of this thread.

[sailor65]

147. There you go again

I never said anything about keeping them OUT of bathrooms. How stupid would I be to say they shouldn't have bathrooms? This had to do only with which bathrrom, and whether or not a new type of facility should be specified in order to keep everyone's rights in order.

Like I said, it will take time to get the file and sufficiently generalize it. Have patience, young Padawan.

[Maddy McCall]

150. Duh. You know what I mean.

It's going to be fun watching you spin the yarn that you believe will cover your ass.

Remember. The story must include a child that was molested or otherwise harmed by a M2F cross-dresser in the ladies' restroom.

This should be good.

[LostinVA]

155. I'm looking forward to it, too

It seems to be a long tome coming for something that will only be several sentences. Maybe from one of those urban legend sites.

[Maddy McCall]

158. If he doesn't realize how ridiculous he looks...

for, first of all, posting his initial post in this thread, and, second, for going so far off on a tangent to back up his first post on this thread...

Yeah, this should be good.

[LostinVA]

159. Damn, I'm going to the gym soon, too

[Maddy McCall]

163. I think that he's caving.

He's now talking about what MIGHT happen. Not what HAS happened.

Aahhhhh the children!!!!

[LostinVA]

164. I noticed that

And, smearing every single MTF transgender along the way. Tsk tsk.

[sailor65]

156. No, it will not

specifically invlove a cross dresser, a child, a bathroom, a full moon, etc. I never said it would. So shall I still work on it, or would it be a waste of time?

It is meant to illustrate a situation or two that one might say "Can't happen." Although I obviously don't expect to ever change your mind, and won't try.

The bottom line is this; if a man follows a woman or girl into the Ladies room, it is likely to cause enough ruckus to prevent a crime from happening (Unfortunately not in every case as in the link I posted). But, if we go now and say "You have to let Transgenders (The ones who still have a penis) into the Ladies room without exception, we have created an automatic smokescreen. The kinds of predators we're talking about can and then will exploit the hole. Because any man who appears to be a T and goes in there will NOT immediately raise an alarm anymore, because we have now made it the societal standard.

And before you stand up the next straw man, I DON'T favor genital checks, Hidden Video, or any other nonsense like that. I simply don't see the harm in a facility category, OR in letting them use the Men's room, since as I said way before, it's no concern to me.

[LostinVA]

161. OMG

You've left me almost speechless with this one. I'll let Maddy handle it.

[Maddy McCall]

162. Are you not aware that M2F transgenders are using the ladies rooms...

all over the United States, without incidence, and no one has yet to "exploit the hole" that you're so concerned about?

What might happen isn't at issue here. What has happened is.

Restricting people's rights so that everyone can be "safe" is quite Bushian, and not something I'd expect from a good, progressive DUer.

If you don't want your child molested, you'd better never send him to school, or church, or to play at a friend's house--because he's much more likely to be molested there than in a women's restroom by a cross-dresser or transsexual.

Jesus.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

210. These Women Still Have A Penis, Pray Tell...

PG RATED

[DemocratSinceBirth]

212. Many Pre Op Transexual Women Are Indistinguishable From Genetic Women

What bathroom should they use?

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sailor65]

145. Maybe not so far off the point

really, but it does astound me also. I knew there were many opinions here, but I seem to have created a firestorm, and I can't quite understand the anger. But I'm new. Perhaps I won't see tomorrow here at DU, but geez.......

I sincerely hope those here that have no idea what I'm talking about NEVER do. That would be a victory.

And to your point, if one of them were not using the toilet, then I think that may be one of those who truly didn't belong in there.

[Maddy McCall]

148. That's a game that people use when they can't back up their assertion.

They claim that they possess some kind of classified or confidential information that they just can't talk about.

[sailor65]

152. If I follow your line correctly,

then you're referring to me referring to "Those who don't know what I'm talking about."

Ok, let me reprase:
"I hope those that haven't closely experienced a crime or violation of this nature never do, and therefore never develop the experience."

Does that suit your semantic sensibilities a tad better?

[Maddy McCall]

153. I think that we can all agree that we hope that no child is molested...

by a band of marauding cross-dressing molesters in the women's room.

Fear of what might happen isn't proof that there's a real danger.

[Heidi]

112. Predator! Predator! Predator! Women and children, cover your heads! The sky is falling!

Tell ya what. Why don't you post a poll and get a _real_ gauge of whom women most fear: heterosexual males in "normal" male clothing? Or hets in women's clothing.

Go ahead. This oughta be good.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

119. If we start letting black people use our water fountains...

soon they'll be carting off our white wimmin!

ZOMG!

[Maddy McCall]

121. Prove to me that allowing black people to use water fountains...

won't result in some future instance of a black man drinking from a white water fountain and then carting off a white woman.

Such is the distorted logic that some are using in this thread.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

62. These "Ladies" Would Encounter Much More Difficulty In A Men's Restroom...

[Heidi]

70. I'll let you know if I need your, or anyone else's, protection.

Meanwhile, welcome to DU.

[sailor65]

78. Thanks also

....for the welcome.

I worked with a task force for quite a while which concerned itself with helping women who either had been victimized or were in environments at risk of being victimized (In various ways). Regardless of feminism, chauvanism, or any other -ism, women (And children) remain in large part our most vulnerable. Having seen all the risks and threats out there, and having needed to help with way too many of them, I guess the protective instinct roots deeply. And I will always believe a great deal of our worth lies in how we protect our most vulnerable.
Having said that, I also recognize that the "T's" in this story are also vulnerable in certain ways, and need help. My point was not to ignore their plight, but rather to be sure we don't turn our backs on one for the other.

Didn't mean to ruffle feathers, but if, God forbid, you do ever find yourself in a terrible situation, very likely someone like me will jump to your aid as well. You might even find an old codger *gasp* useful!

:D

edited for spelling

[Maddy McCall]

79. We poor, silly little women can't take care of ourselves.

Thank god that there are still real men out there who will protect us. We're so fragile and vulnerable and all.

[sailor65]

82. C'mon now,

There was nothing about Poor, Silly, or Little anywhere in my post.

[pnwmom]

84. What about the little girls who go in by themselves?

What's to stop a predator from "dressing up" to go in there?

Do you remember the case from the Nevada casino a few years ago, where the man killed the little girl while she was alone with him in the bathroom?

[sailor65]

85. Yes, that's a perfect example

I wish I had remembered that one when I started my posts. 1998-ish, right?

[pnwmom]

89. It could be that long ago. It's the kind of thing a parent doesn't forget,

but the date eludes me.

I hope you're not getting too discouraged by the "baptism by fire" that you're getting here today. I think you're asking a reasonable question, but real transgenders do suffer greatly in the real (non DU) world, and I think that is uppermost in the minds of people here.

[sailor65]

115. I looked it up

And here it is:
http://www.cnn.com/US/9810/15/casino.slaying/index.html

It's a terrible story.

The baptism isn't so terribly bad. I expected that many would disagree with my position. At least they aren't calling me names, eh? A lot of women are downright offended by the prospect of "Needing protection," and many don't understand that such instincts arise from respect and admiration for them, not from contempt or superiority. I have literally been called to the aid of women who told me years before that I was too "Chauvinistic" for my own good, only to find themselves in desperate straits and suddenly realizing that such instincts can be a very good thing.

I also agree that real transgenders suffer, and they deserve the assistance they need, and I'm sure that weighs heavily here. But I think "Real" is the operative term. It's so easy to use the condition as a smokescreen to get into a position of power. And one dead or shattered child, or one dead or shattered woman is just one too many.

And regardless of how well women can or can't defend themselves from monsters, children, like the girl in this story, cannot.

[Maddy McCall]

90. And that guy walked in the restroom DRESSED AS A MAN.

Which proves that, if a man wants to abuse/molest/harm a child in a public restroom, he probably has little concern about the bathroom dress code.

[pnwmom]

108. Yes, in that particular case.

But if he had dressed as a woman, he might not have been caught so easily, because the police would have been looking for the "woman" they saw in the camera.

Logically speaking, you can't "prove" anything with a particular example in line with your thinking. All you can show is that something is possible.

[Maddy McCall]

110. If a frog had wings....

So I'm still waiting. Show me one incident in which a man dressed up as a woman, went into the women's bathroom, and then harmed a child.

Google is only a click away.

[Heidi]

122. Do you not know the difference between transgender and pedophile?????

Google is your friend.

[LostinVA]

123. It's the same sort of logic I've seen

when so-called "progressive" men on here have said they're scared of being raped by gay men in their gym showers.

[sailor65]

131. It's not the same at all

Gay men in my gym shower, locker room, on my hockey team, etc, scare me not in the least. We're not talking about Gay people here.

[LostinVA]

132. I never said it was -- I said it was the same type of logic

And, it is.

And, considering I'm a member of the Gay Police, I think I understand the logic of discrimination against gays.

[sailor65]

135. I don't know "Gay Police"

Is it an organization of some sort, a metaphor, or what?

[LostinVA]

136. Giggle

[LanternWaste]

194. Even though I'm traditional and prudish...

Even though I'm traditional and prudish, you're starting to make me laugh root beer out of my nose.

(Admit it-- this is like canned hunting for you, isn't it?)

[LostinVA]

198. Are you really???

You've always struck me as a pretty cool poster -- for real.

(It is -- but everyone needs an easy day, especially when it's so hot!)

[LanternWaste]

237. O-k, maybe not prudish

Cool? Me? :blush: (Best Sally Field imitation-- "You like me! You really like me!)

O-k, maybe I'm not prudish. But definitely naive and unacquainted with the vast majority of alternative lifestyles; which is why I rarely enter threads of this nature-- I'm afraid my ignorance would help me inadvertently say something very, very stupid.

But the way you played the other poster in this thread was a marvel to behold and I wanted you to know there was a section in the audience applauding you....

[pnwmom]

224. I suppose that means you've never heard

of men raping women in bathrooms?

I'm not talking about gay men, or transgender people -- I'm talking about straight men who attack women or girls in bathrooms.

[Maddy McCall]

228. And that has exactly WHAT to do with transsexuals being banned from the ladies room?

[pnwmom]

223. I've clearly stated that I'm not talking about transgender people.

I'm talking about a man -- not a transgender man, but a fully hetero man -- who might dress as a woman in order to gain access to the ladies room.

Just as in Islamic countries there have been recent cases of men dressing in women's garb in order to hide bombs or other weapons, it would be possible for a man in this country to dress as a woman for criminal purposes -- NOT because the man is transgender.

[Maddy McCall]

229. Like I said, prove where that's happened in the past...

to make it a concern that it might happen in the future.

Our should we all start banning things that we fear might happen in the future?

[Heidi]

103. If you're intent on protecting people, protect all of us from irrational fear.

That's a much greater enemy and far more "terrible situation" than the myriad bogey-men that the self-serving, fear-mongering politicians and largely rightwing prison industrial complex would have us believe. If you're ranking folks according to vulnerability, you need not worry about me.

By the way, I've found "old codgers" more "useful" than you might imagine, though perhaps not in the ways you might suspect.

[Book Lover]

127. Yep, chauvanistic sums it up pretty well

If you were a real liberal, the "we" in your last sentence would include women as a matter of course.

[sailor65]

130. Of course it does,

....which is why I didn't specify it.

[Book Lover]

142. No, see, as a woman, I don't read it that way

I know you are probably thinking that I am overpicking your words, but please bear with me. You said, "Maybe I'm just too old-fashioned and chauvinistic for such an enlightened group, but I feel we are greatly illustrated by how we care for, honor, and protect our women." If a woman is in the "being protected" group, how can she be in the original "we"? I cannot be included in the subject because I am the object of the care, honor and protection.

Look, I don't want to get bogged down in fiddly bits of meaning; I just want to make myself clear. Generally, when a woman hears that a man wants to protect her because she is a woman (not because she is in immediate danger), alarm bells start going off. The implication is that we are ipso facto incapable of self-protection, not because of anything specific but because simply we are female. Do you see where I'm coming from, and how I find that patronizing?

[LostinVA]

149. Good answer n/t

[sailor65]

160. I will blame poor wording on my part for that

I think I understand your position, yes. And the "Protectors" in our case are largely women protecting other women (And children). It's only women who are at risk that I concerned my position with. It's the specific risks that the specific women are not able to handle alone that we fight. I will have to be much more careful in my wording on here. I'll work on that, for sure.

[Maddy McCall]

170. Here you go:

Keep diggin' that hole.

[LostinVA]

172. Actually, how about this?

[Maddy McCall]

176. LOL!

:rofl:

:thumbsup:

[Bluebear]

187. 'Which is a much more vulnerable state for a woman than it is for a man' - who's in a stall?

And who is standing against a wall?

[Bluebear]

191. You agree what, in total? You want a third bathroom category too?

[karlrschneider]

8. The -best- solution is genderless bathrooms (who the hell takes a bath in a toilet anyway?)

Most of the world has gotten over worrying about what kind of plumbing people who need to pee have. Modesty is all well and good out in the street but as far as I know every human on the planet has to occasionally divest him/her/it/self of waste products...why is it such a big fucking deal?????
There was a story many years ago about a gathering of people sitting on toilets. From time to time one would ask to be excused and would repair to a room where food was being served...they would ingest some and come back to the group. Presumably after washing their hands...

[pnwmom]

225. Only a small percent of women would agree with you,

at least in the broader, non DU world.

[Maddy McCall]

10. That would be a "logical" solution to people with utter ignorance...

about gender dysphoria and transgenders.

[Solo_in_MD]

12. I read through the article and comments and it appears that the

T*s did not like the cleanliness of the floor in the ladies bathroom, and stood to pee. That is what upset the female patrons. If that is indeed true, they were causing a disturbance, and could reasonably be asked to leave, not for being T* but for causing a disturbance. Banning them seems overly harsh. HOwever, I don't see a way for a bar/resturant/club owner to win here. No matter what they do they are doomed, unless they add a single *special needs* bathroom which would be open to anyone. However, it would most likely not have enough throughput to handle a Friday night crowd.

We have a couple of T*s in the extended family. Once when questioned about this by one of my duaghters, their aunt said "I may not be the prettiest lady in ladies restroom, but I am always a lady". Seems a fairly pragmatic view, and I never heard of her being ejected from any venue over using the ladies bathroom, even though passing is not easy for her.

Long term, its hard to say what the right answers are. Unisex restroom with stalls only would be one approach, but guys will not want to sit and pee...its against their genetics, and the mess they would leave would be intolerable. Maybe we mature as a society, but I am not sure jr high school kids would ever be able to handle it. Has any of the high tech companies taken this on at their campuses or has the fear of complaints and lawsuits stopped any *inovation* in this area?

[Maddy McCall]

17. These transgendered people could not win.

Why were people watching what they were doing in closed stalls?

I don't sit when I'm at a public restroom...I "hover."

Does it really matter if one faces toward or away from the toilet when one takes a piss?

It sounds like the women who were "offended" were more offended by transgenders entering their restroom than they were by which way they faced when they pissed.

I've been in PLENTY of women's restrooms that were utterly NASTY, with urine and fecal matter all over the seats (and walls). People don't sit on public toilets, regardless of their gender. Why? Because public restroom toilets are gross, no matter how clean the rest of the bathroom is.

This whole thing is about TRANSGENDERED PEOPLE and whether or not they are truly women, thus entitled to use the same restroom as biological women. Whatever excuses you may read that indicate otherwise, that's the bottom line. (No pun intended.)

[Solo_in_MD]

22. T*s never win...

Having two in the family has senstized me to it somewhat,and its clearly a hard road. Viscerally hated by some straights, discarded by some in the gay rights movement, its just not fun place to be sometimes.

[Maddy McCall]

23. It's a terrible place to be.

I won't discuss my "credentials" for my knowledge, but I'll certainly say that I've seen my transgendered loved one face far more hate and discrimination than I've ever seen any other "class" of person face.

[Solo_in_MD]

28. I have found that with a couple of T* aunts, my daughters were a good deal

more open and mature about different sexual and gender states than others their age.

[pnwmom]

86. But the poster asks a legitimate question.

How do you distinguish between a genuine transgender and a predator who has put on women's clothing in order to gain entry into the ladies room?

(And in case you genuinely do not know, it is easy to tell if someone is peeing standing up by the sound. A woman, even hovering, is much quieter.)

[Maddy McCall]

94. You're hung up on this predator thing, aren't you?

And thanks for your expertise in pissing sounds. :eyes:

Show one instance in which a man dressed up as a woman and then went into a women's restroom to molest a child.

This situation is taking place at a bar. I wonder how many children go to the bathroom at this bar?

[pnwmom]

101. That situation is a bar. But the question asked was a more general one.

And everyone's avoiding answering it.

I'm "hung up" on the fact that no one is directly answering the OP's question. What about predators?

When my son was in first grade, a police officer came to our school. One of the subjects he brought up in his lecture about keeping kids safe was to tell parents which of the local men's rooms our sons should avoid. One of them was in a store I frequently went to.

So please don't tell me the issue of safety in bathrooms isn't real. Maybe nothing like that would ever happen in your town. You're lucky then.

[Maddy McCall]

106. You are so far out of the scope of the topic of this thread...

that your posts are now becoming amusing.

I know that public bathrooms pose a risk for children. But unless you can show incidents in which cross-dressers entered bathrooms to harm children, your fear-mongering has no bearing on this thread.

Did your police officer warn you and the children about a group of marauding, child-molesting cross-dressers?

:eyes:

[pnwmom]

114. Unless you can prove that no predator would ever

disguise himself as a woman for the purpose of entering a ladies room, then you're the one off topic. The OP wasn't asking about genuine cross-dressers or transgenders. The OP was addressing the issue of predators who could dress as women to gain access to the ladies room.

[Maddy McCall]

118. How fucking ridiculous. You made the assertion. Back it up.

I can't prove that something from your imagination might not come true. You certainly can't prove that what you've imagined has ever happened in the past.

I dreamed last night that water will turn to chocolate and I'll invent a new cupcake recipe named H20Sweetzies. Prove to me that that won't happen in the future.

:eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

95. You don't.

So my suggestion is, if somebody's so terrified of predators they shouldn't go out in public.

[Maddy McCall]

99. And keep their children in their home 24/7.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

102. No, let the kids out.

The kids don't need to put up with that paranoid bigotry shit.

[Maddy McCall]

109. ...

No shit.

This stuff's posted at DU. :eyes:

[NashVegas]

146. "Does it really matter if one faces toward or away from the toilet when one takes a piss?"

I don't know. Why don't you get a man at work try pissing away from a unisex bathroom toilet/urinal, and see what the reaction of the next person to use the room is.

[Maddy McCall]

151. As long as said person is hitting the toilet...

I don't care if they sit, squat, hover, or stand.

[NashVegas]

154. How Do You Hit The Toilet While Facing Away?

Neat trick. But that is the point - the complaints initiated because there were people taking a whiz in the ladies room and not using the toilets.

Those people happen to have been anatomically equipped for the mens' room.

How is this the complaining womens' fault?

[Maddy McCall]

157. Are you saying that the transgendered people were responsible for pissing on the floor?

I've seen no one claim that.

snip/

She said she was surprised that women in the bar complained about her and six or seven of her transgendered friends using the women’s bathroom, because women there had seemed supportive in the past.

“I wasn’t a nuisance. I never caused problems. I’m not a 21-year-old kid who’s going to get drunk,” she said.

Nevertheless, she said Anderson rudely refused her and one of her friends entry into the club a couple of days after Thanksgiving.

“He grabbed the money from my hand and said, ‘I don’t want your business or your kind here,’” she said. “That, to me, is discrimination.”

snip/

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/94116

[NashVegas]

179. "I've Seen No Claim of That" - Bullshit

There's an accusation of it in post #12, which you replied to in #17.

Why else would you have asked whether it mattered what direction someone was facing when they used the toilet in the first place?

[Maddy McCall]

184. You have spammed the board with claims that the transgendered people...

were pissing on the floors and in the sink.

My post above:

*******************************
Why were people watching what they were doing in closed stalls?

I don't sit when I'm at a public restroom...I "hover."

Does it really matter if one faces toward or away from the toilet when one takes a piss?

It sounds like the women who were "offended" were more offended by transgenders entering their restroom than they were by which way they faced when they pissed.

I've been in PLENTY of women's restrooms that were utterly NASTY, with urine and fecal matter all over the seats (and walls). People don't sit on public toilets, regardless of their gender. Why? Because public restroom toilets are gross, no matter how clean the rest of the bathroom is.

This whole thing is about TRANSGENDERED PEOPLE and whether or not they are truly women, thus entitled to use the same restroom as biological women. Whatever excuses you may read that indicate otherwise, that's the bottom line. (No pun intended.)
*************************************

I stand by my post. The point of my post, which seems to have gone right over your head, is that it should not matter whether you sit (facing away from the toilet) or stand (facing the toilet)--people shouldn't be watching you piss to begin with. I didn't assume that anyone who read my post would be so intellectually inept that the above parentheticals would be required.

Now, show me any news article that states that the transgendered people urinated in the sinks or on the floors of the women's bathroom.

[NashVegas]

193. You Seem to Think The Women In Question

Were peeping over (or under) the stalls. According to accounts, that was unnecessary.

My statement was:
If I see a stream of piss coming across the floor at my feet, or see someone pissing in the sink I plan to wash my hands in, because the toilet is somehow gross to that person, you bet your ass I'm going to complain to management.

You think pointing out their rude behavior - which 98% of those participating in this thread choose to ignore - spam, well that's your choice.

[Maddy McCall]

197. According to what accounts?

Still waiting for a link to a news article that shows that the transsexuals were peeing on floors and in sinks.

[northzax]

87. seems to me that the only logical solution

is to have gender neutral individual bathrooms. it's more efficient (you don't have a longer wait for the men's room or the women's room, everyone waits together) it is more private and it reduces bad behaviour all in all. the bar I work at has two rooms, while they are labeled "men" and "women" as required by law, as a matter of practical application, they are simply used by the next person in line, male or female.

it's more complicated with multi-seaters, but simply build floor to ceiling partitions, and make it all equal. simple solution.

[ScreamingWhisper]

129. Seems to me nature already made the determination....

Males of the species have a penis. Females have a vagina.
Those who feel that nature improperly assigned them their sex in life can choose to change their outward appearance, and thus, could use their newly chosen bathroom. If they have not made that crucial step of genital reassignment, they should use the sex based bathroom nature (and society) have deemed appropriate.

I find it absurd to try and mandate yet more expense on the business owner to physically build a third bathroom, when it would benefit such a small percentage of the population (see below)

http://www.msu.edu/~alliance/faq/faqtransgendered.html
"There are no actual statistics on the numbers of transvestites, transsexuals, or intersexuals in the world at large. Due to the nature of transgenderism, a accurate count cannot be made. The estimated ratio of MTF transsexuals to genetic males is between 1:2000 and 1:80,000. The estimated ratio of FTM transsexuals to genetic females is between 1:2000 and 1:125,000."

Likewise, a genderless approach is not very practical, as it would be an invitation to further lawsuits against the owner in the event of one patron attacking another due to proper privacy based on sex. I still believe that alcohol (this is a bar we're talking about) and men openly allowed to venture into a room of women in discreet and private situations, would not be a good idea. Is that being sexist? Probably? Not really. It's been widely accepted for a number of years, that male on female assaults are a much higher percentage of occurrence compared to female on male assaults. Why open a door (figuratively and literally) to those prone to such actions, so easily available?

[Maddy McCall]

139. Gender is not biological. Sex is.

Shall we start testing DNA at bathroom doors? Raising skirts to look for penises? Drop trou to look for vaginas?

[dysfunctional press]

236. exactly.

people should use the bathrooms that their natural plumbing is geared toward.

if a transgender prson doesn't feel comfortable using the proper bathroom in a given establishment- DON'T FREQUENT THAT ESTABLISHMENT! seems pretty simple. if the owner of the business feels that he's losing out on too much business- he can choose to add a third bathroom for all the "it's" that aren't "men" or "women".

[Drifter]

166. It is called a Family Bathroom ...

I have seen these in malls. It is a private bathroom specifically for parents for example who have small children. These rooms are typically outfitted with baby changing tables and such. I see this as a viable alternative to the "which bathroom should TG folks use".

Cheers
Drifter

[Maddy McCall]

171. In a bar?

[Freddie Stubbs]

3. Men should use the Men' Room, Women should use the Women's Room

[Maddy McCall]

6. How do you define "men" and "women?"

[Freddie Stubbs]

48. If they have a penis, they are a man

If they have a vagina, they are a woman. Regardless of how they are dressed. What is so confusing about that?

[LostinVA]

49. I would say you're wrong -- medically and otherwise

Just because you have a penis does NOT make you a "man," either biologically or mentally. That is science, not opinion.

[Help me help Earth]

72. Science? Mind expanding on that?

Pretend to be the opposite sex all you want, but don't pretend that science backs up your fantasies. If you have a penis, you are biologically a man. Mentally, you might find yourself in another place, but biologically, you are a man.

[LostinVA]

107. First of all, I'm not transgendered

Secondly, if I was, it wouldn't be a fantasy.

And there have been cases of people who physically appeared to be one sex, but DNA testing proved them to biologically be the opposite sex.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

128. Science, Help me help Earth?

HmhE, Science has shown there's men, women, and plenty of people in between. There's people with XX chromosomes, people with XY chromosomes, people with XXY chromosomes, people with XX chromosomes with penises, people with XY chromosomes with vaginas, people with both penises and vaginas, people with penises who want to be women and for all meaningful purposes are, and so on.

But more importantly, science has shown that if a man dressed as a woman uses the ladies restroom, he doesn't go on a child molesting spree, and it doesn't make baby jesus cry, and it doesn't start an atomic change reaction, and generally nothing bad happens. Bigots get upset, but fuck them sideways.

[Bluebear]

195. Aren't you the enlightened one.

:silly:

[LostinVA]

199. I was surprised to discover I'm TG and live a fantasy as a man -- or woman -- I'm not sure

The ignorance here is astounding.

[Bluebear]

201. So, you have a fantasy penis and I have a fantasy vagina.

Are we "normal" now? Is the universe back in balance?? :silly:

The collective intelligence of the board went down 25 points with this thread.

[LostinVA]

203. I guess we do -- but which bathrooms do we use?

And, will we molest women and children if we accidentally use the wrong one? I mean, if I dress as a man but am really a woman and go into the men's room, I COULD harass a man... in some alternate reality. So, because it could happen... wait. Did I get that right?

[Maddy McCall]

207. You must use the port-a-potty in the basement.

That's where we send the freaky confused child molesting not-normal people.

:)

[LostinVA]

222. Does it have scented soap?

[Maddy McCall]

227. Sure! And a cabana boy who'll check your privates at the door...

after you fill out the "special" questionnaire.

:D

[LostinVA]

230. Would the cabana boy be a "real" male or will they be "fantasizing" male?

[Maddy McCall]

231. Does it matter if he's there to protect you from abby normal people?

He has mints.

And towelettes.

[LostinVA]

232. Are they pre-moistened towelettes?

They're the only kind non-abby normal fantasizing people use. I want to be one of the others.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

54. Do They Look Like Men?

They both have penises:

(it's not pornographic)



Your genitalia doesn't make you a man or woman...




I'll bet they would cause a lot more commotion by going into the men's room...



I humbly suggest you get out more...

[AZBlue]

183. That's completely discounting the way a person feels.

If they are born with one set of reproductive organs but identify with another, that can not be dismissed so easily. It has to be respected.

[Bluebear]

186. It's all so simple! We'll have the bathroom attendant check their genitalia on the way in!

:eyes:

[cherokeeprogressive]

75. HUMANS with VAGINA to the door on the left, HUMANS with PENIS to the door on the right n/t

[Maddy McCall]

113. Who's gonna decide which has which?

Are you proposing that people be strip searched before entering public restrooms?

[Name removed]

168. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

169. How about instead of apologizing to your "trans gendered friends," you simply don't insult them?

There's no excuse for this transphobic "Ann the Man" crap, false apologies or not.

[UncleSepp]

173. And humans with a vagina and a beard?

People in the bathroom can see my beard and my male-shaped body. They can't see what I am peeing out of, and I doubt any of them are all that interested in seeing it anyway. Do you really think it would be less disturbing for all concerned and more socially acceptable if I went into a ladies' room because "humans with vaginas" should go in one room, "humans with penis" in the other?

[LostinVA]

188. Glad you chimed in on this -- I'm tired of posters acting like people are abstract objects

Or subjects for intellectual masturbation.

Good post.

[UncleSepp]

239. When it comes to "I gotta go!!" there's no room for abstraction

I'll try to take an abstract whiz the next time ;-)

[cherokeeprogressive]

233. In a word? YUP.

My 16 y/o daughter's word's: "Don't LABEL me, I'm not a soupcan."

Got a penis? Go piss in a urinal.
Got a vagina? Go piss in a toilet.

[UncleSepp]

238. So, a guy goes into a ladies' room...

... beard, male voice, male looking body, and a driver's license that says MALE on it, and...

This is supposed to make people more comfortable, and be more polite than just quietly going into a men's room stall where absolutely nobody will notice?

Somehow, I think you've strayed far from your original premise, which appeared to have been that people who look like one sex but pee out of something appropriate for the other sex ought to be considerate of others in their choice of bathrooms. That, I can agree with. Where you have gone now is to a black-and-white ideological argument that seems to be made more out of a deep-rooted social conservatism than any genuine concern for anyone's social comfort or for common politeness. You seem to be in favor of making anyone and everyone uncomfortable (so long as it fits with your social views) and you also seem to be very willing to deny specific instances of observable reality in order to continue to support your abstract ideas.

Ask yourself, are those the thinking patterns of a liberal, or of a reactionary?

[icymist]

241. The level of ignorance on this thread is staggering.

First, the OP searches the entire web only to find a definite definition of such a loose term as 'transgender' as if this specifically defines an entire class of people. This train of thought is no different as Anne Coulter defining all Liberals as 'godless' and then starting all discussion from that point.
After this confining beginning of this discussion, we are all told that some men 'might dress up in women's clothing with the diabolical scheme to molest/rape innocent women and children! With these fantastic fantasies it is then suggested that all transgenders be banned from using the bathroom of their outward sexual appearance for the good of the entire population. Amazing! Many of the posters here arguing over bathroom arrangements are also concerned about the eroding of civil liberties in the name of security for the entire population.
With so many self-proclaimed experts in the field of gender dysphoria telling who may pee where, how they may pee, and what happens when they pee, why then is there is so much disagreement? How many here are posting their opinions in ignorance and bigotry?
Also, Liberals and Progressives, how many times do you need to be beaten over the head with such divisive tactics as to endlessly argue over what a minority within a minority's rights should or shouldn't be before you look up and see the Neo-Con Religious nut job that's doing the beating? I'm talking about the bartender in the OP that planted the seed so many gobbled up in order to argue about something that they probably will never encounter in their entire lives unless they go looking for it?

[Name removed]

234. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ConsAreLiars]

235. No, you're just a self-outed bigot.

What in the original facts of this story led you conclude that that scenario was in any way relevant? Nothing at all, other than your bigotry.

[TahitiNut]

4. I'm in favor of unisex restrooms. I've used 'em. No problem.

:shrug:

[karlrschneider]

9. Same here. In several countries. Sheesh.

...

[Kingshakabobo]

11. I agree. Stalls for everyone! n/t

[Solo_in_MD]

15. Only issue with that is the mess some guys make

not putting up the seat, poor aim, collateral damage and all that. I don't do that, and get annoyed with those who do, but its clearly out there. I am positive that most women would not like to unisex stalls for that reason alone

[Maddy McCall]

19. Women are as bad if not worse at making disgusting messes in bathrooms.

[Kingshakabobo]

24. I have an idea. How about bathrooms for 'slobs' and 'non-slobs'?

:)

[Maddy McCall]

27. Now THERE'S a solution.

:rofl:

[Solo_in_MD]

25. I've been told differently, but there have been times when the women in my household will exit

quickly and demand to be taken elsewhere.

My opinion has been that generally the mens bathrooms are dirtier than the womens bathrooms, but both could easily be beneath the minimum threshold.

[mentalsolstice]

77. Unisex bathrooms with stalls, but...

some stalls would have toilets, others would have urinals?

[OnionPatch]

65. I've never been in a women's restroom that didn't have stalls

with doors. WTF is the problem? Who is even going to see whether or not a transgendered person is "real" or not. Put some doors on the stalls or get unisex restrooms where the door can be locked from the outside.

[pnwmom]

226. I've been in ones without doors.

In schools and in parks.

[mcctatas]

26. One of my favorite bars in town has a unisex bathroom...

normally a fine idea, but seeing my Poli-sci prof. "utilizing the facilities" when I was to drunk to realize that it was probably not quite the right time for casual chit chat made the rest of that semester a little odd (but he did buy me a drink later that nite and I got an A in the class so I think I'm the prudish one in this scenario)

[Maddy McCall]

5. The only difference in M2F transgenders and bio females...

is that M2F transgenders have or used to have a penis. In every other way, they are feminine, and should be allowed to use the women's restroom.

When they go to the women's room, they are not there to gawk at women. They are there to relieve themselves, same as any bio woman is.

That there's even a question about this demonstrates that transgendered people have so much discrimination still to fight.

[shugah]

32. is a heterosexual crossdressing male that has no desire to change sex

clip from OP

from the PFLAG-Talk/TGS-PFLAG Virtual Library: "The largest subgroup of transgendered persons are cross-dressers who are mainly heterosexual men, although there are also women who cross-dress. Apart from their occasional cross-dressing, they lead lives that are quite ordinary in all other respects. Most cross-dressers are married and many have children, so they have much to lose from their transgendered state being revealed. They also wish to remain in the sex they were born

transexuals are a focal point but are a very small sub-group of people of the far larger 'transgender' group. 'transgender' includes MTF crossdressers, quite a surprisingly high percentage of hetero males.

in fact, these hetero male crossdressers are not "feminine" in any way except when they dress. they are, as stated in the OP referencing PFLAG "...quite ordinary ..."

is a heterosexual crossdressing male that has no desire to change sex the same as a bio woman?

[Maddy McCall]

34. "DeLaFreniere, 52, has lived as a woman since 2004. "

Therefore, Michele De LaFreniere is not a "transvestite."

What do you suggest? Having men and women expose their privates to some kind of bathroom security guard, so that that person can determine who fits where?

I stand by what I said above.


Edit to add link: http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/ss/local/58748.php

There's lots of stuff out there to read on this topic, besides just the neat little snippet that the OP included.

[shugah]

42. transvestite, tomato

neither transvestite nor crossdresser mean transexual.

i do not have the solution to Ms. De LaFreniere's bathroom situation. and you are trying to lead me when you ask for bathroom security guards.

i don't actually think we have an argument.

but i would also like you to answer if a heterosexual male crossdresser who has no desire to change sex is the same as a bio woman?

there is lots of stuff to read on this subject - but the PFLAG snippet included in the OP brings up a point often ignored - that the transgender numbers are boosted by the hetero male crossdressers.

[Maddy McCall]

43. I won't answer your question, because it requires...

that outsiders categorize people who only wish to use the bathroom.

Your reply heading was callous, in my opinion.

Edited to add: AND, you are trying to divert the discussion away from this particular situation, in which we are talking about a transgendered person who is a M2F TRANSSEXUAL. Period.

That is what I was addressing. That's the topic under discussion. My reply stands.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

55. A Male Who Who Like To Wear Women's Clothes Occasionally Would Be Considered A Crossdresser

They can be homosexeual or heterosexual...

A person that exclusively identifies with the gender not of his birth would be considered transgendered...


For instance when Rudy Guliani wore his "Marilyn" costume he he was not exhiniting true transgendered behavior but maybe , just maybe , he was getting in touch with his inner self...

[Maddy McCall]

7. Jesus. So much ignorance already displayed in this thread.

Sad.

[ConsAreLiars]

14. I agree completely. The OP and the bartender

seem to have no idea about gender and orientation issues and are willing to cater to those whose outlooks are worse than ignorant and openly bigoted. Whenever the question is asked "How stupid can you get?" somebody pops up with a new answer.

[LostinVA]

50. Yous aid it -- total ignorance in this thread

At the very least, they should read, "She's Not Here," by Jenny Boylan, and "As Nature Made Him." THat'll open their narrow eyes a bit, if they have an ounce of understanding in them.

[northzax]

116. the question in point, as I see it

is that as a manager, I can't tell if the person is trangendered, cross-dressing or simply a predator who gets his jollies listening to women pee (yes, all three exist, no question) I can't look and tell on sight, which means I default to harmless, which means I potentially expose my other customers to a threat. because, like it or not, there are people who will take advantage of the situation. All of which leads to the need to simply have facilities in which gender, or, more importantly, the outward appearance of gender, are irrelevant. I am legally responsible for the safety of ALL my customers in my bar, I can't take the chance of having men in the same room as women where I can't (and frankly, don't want to) keep an eye on them, even though in 99% of the cases, there is nothing to worry about. If I get that one guy who takes advantage of the situation to cause trouble, it's not worth it.

and I have read She's Not Here, and I had James Boylan as a professor as an undergrad (before the physical change to Jenny) and have met Jenny at reunions, so I understand on some level the issue. which is why I want to remove the importance of the physical appearance of gender from the discussion entirely. give everyone their own place to pee or shit and call it a day.

[AZBlue]

189. LIKE HELL!

Who the eff do you think you are????!!? Why didn't you bother to read my post, you moron??

If you'd bothered to read my post and not lay your own issues in it you'd see that I'm not only open-minded and sensitive to the issue, that I have many gay, lesbian, transsexual, purple, orange and polka-dot friends, but the reason for my OP was to figure out the right way to handle such a situation so it's done with every amount of respect for EVERYONE. I do understand gender and orientation issues - to the point of looking up the right way to address a trasngender individual.

"HOW STUPID CAN YOU GET?" indeed!

[karlrschneider]

16. Maddy, I think there IS a lot of ignorance, and I'm guilty of it myself.

I don't think what's going on is so much discrimination as you mentioned in another post as the inability to grasp just how exactly to understand what's with transgendered people. I don't even begin to understand it...I'm gay but I never had any thought of being 'female'. It just doesn't make any sense to me. So maybe you can see how difficult it is for a 'normal' person to appreciate the situation...?

[Solo_in_MD]

20. Self Delete - Wrong Place

[Maddy McCall]

21. Whose fault is it if they cannot grasp what it means?

People see transgenders as nothing more than freaks. They see the external and don't bother to look any further.

I appreciate your honestly, Karl, but, in all honestly, transgendered people are no different than me or you.

They identify with every bit of their being with the opposite sex from that which they were born. Many are able to surgically correct that problem. Many others are damned to live in silence in biological hell.

[karlrschneider]

30. I absolutely belive it...I just don't understand it. That is my bad.

FWIW, I don't think of ANY person as a freak. I had a dear friend for many years who was born with a misshapen skull...his head looked like a yellow squash. He was ridiculed and teased...from childhood but he was a kind and intelligent person. Please believe that my inability to grasp howTG people feel is not a condemnation of any sort, it's just one of many phenomena I simply don't understand. You will not be pleased with this observation and I'm sorry but I need to say - I truly believe that many of these people are claiming (and obviiously following through with) their honest belief that it's better for them to deny their orientation for whatever reason, and claiming a 'mistake of nature'.

It may be true in some cases but I just don't buy it as a general principle.

[ConsAreLiars]

35. That is where you are really mistaken

Thank you for expressing your views so candidly, and I think it is at the core of your misunderstanding.

"You will not be pleased with this observation and I'm sorry but I need to say - I truly believe that many of these people are claiming (and obviously following through with) their honest belief that it's better for them to deny their orientation for whatever reason, and claiming a 'mistake of nature'."

I won't tell you about "most," just one. One of my kids was oriented toward the same sex, eventually became a prominent and effective activist in that community and established a long term relationship with another person of the same sex. Later went through a gender reassignment process and that long-term relationship was now recognized as qualifying for a marriage certificate, but otherwise no different.

There was no subterfuge or denial or self-deception at any stage, and all of these steps took place openly, in full public view, and under a very high stress workload. I am astounded by this accomplishment and far beyond proud.

[karlrschneider]

38. Thanks for edifying me on that. I need to rethink my position to some extent, apparently.

But right now, I really need to shut off the computer, I have a charter to fly at 10 tomorrow morning and I absolutely have to be at a the airport by 0900 at the latest. Will try to come back to this later....
ks

[Maddy McCall]

40. Fly safely, Karl.

It's great to see someone with the willingness to learn. I think you fit that category.

:hug:

[ConsAreLiars]

46. Agreed, on both counts n/t

[AZBlue]

192. I do hope you're NOT lumping me in that group.

See my later post for clarification if you are!

[ConsAreLiars]

31. What do you imagine it would have been like for you if,

rather than seeing yourself as a guy attracted to guys, you had felt you were female by nature. Your orientation would be "normal" by the numbers, but your life much harder. Take it as a fact that for most people the sense of male-female is well established and rather rigid, and in some cases it has nothing to do with innie-outie genital morphology or hormone mechanics. Due to my life experience I've never found any of these things hard to understand - unfamiliar at first, but not disturbing. It's just part of the wide range of what "being human" includes.

[karlrschneider]

33. I have absolutely no idea how to answer your question. For me, it's hypotheticial to a degree

I can't relate to. You might as well ask me what if I felt like a Martian. (that might be easier, actually)

I guess I'm pretty much black/white male/female to the extent that the apparatus hooked to the pelvis is about all I need to make the determination...but as far as -attraction-, that's a whole nother universe. I don't believe 'hard to understand' is synonymous with 'disturbing'...I've been around, I daresay probably longer than you and there isn't much in this area of human behavior that disturbs me - I'm just saying that some of it baffles me.
:-)

[ConsAreLiars]

39. Actually, that determination is not linked to the pelvis

any more than it is linked to the elbow. In your case and mine it happens to coincide with that bit of anatomy, but in other cases not. You would feel no less male if some doctor had decided to whack it off (a true example) and your parents decided to dress you in skirts. The point is only that gender ID is independent of both anatomy and orientation.

[mockmonkey]

52. Now,

pretend you have a female body and think about your sentence, "I never had any thought of being 'female'. It just doesn't make any sense to me." Now you know. ;)

[pnwmom]

93. So people who disagree with you are by definition ignorant.

I think that people who won't acknowledge that predators sometimes attack women or girls in ladies rooms, or boys in men's rooms, are also ignorant.

I'll never forget the case here in WA state where a little boy went into a bathroom in a movie theater and was sexually mutilated. Or the little girl in Nevada who was killed by a man lurking in a casino ladies room.

[Maddy McCall]

98. Your arguments are ignorant.

Unless you can show me where a man dressed as a woman went into a bathroom to harm a child, your arguments are completely unrelated to this topic.

Sure, predators attack people in bathrooms. They attack people in cars, elevators, on buses, and in subways. But I've never heard of a single incident in which a man dressed up like a woman, then went to the women's bathroom to attack a child.

If you can show that that's happened, then your argument just might become relevant to the discussion.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

111. Talk about ignorant.

"Or the little girl in Nevada who was killed by a man lurking in a casino ladies room."

That was a man dressed in mens clothes who just ran right through the door into the women's restroom. It didn't have anything to do with transgenderism, it didn't have anything to do with going to the bathroom, and this transgender = sex predator thing is blatant open bigotry.

It's like saying you don't want black women using the white women's restroom because you heard somewhere that some black people once raped a white woman.

Shame on you.

[sailor65]

177. Again, not the right description

of our words. No one has even hinted here that Transgenders=Sex Predator. It is those who would USE the APPEARANCE of Transgendered to gain an advantage that we are concerned about. Way back in this debacle I made a distinction between a "Real" T and one that is not. I also said a real Transgender faces difficulties and deserves solutions to those.

Edited for spelling

[LostinVA]

181. Per your logic in your posts, NO woman should eb allowed in a ladies room

Because, how do we know they're ladies??? They could be men who dress like ladies, or have very light beards and look like ladies, or be butch women, or maybe Sinead O'Connor. Because, men might dress/look like women, which is what MTF TG folk look like, and how the hell can we know who's who??? So, per your logic, the bar owner in the OP should just ban women, too.

Jeebus.

Wait a sec, I'm trying to get my balance so I'll be ready for your spin. Okay. Go ahead.

[sailor65]

182. Geez, you guys have a lot of straw

laying on the ground around here. I won't add any spin. You're capable enough for both of us.

I said I don't have any intelligent method for "Sorting." And that I didn't favor intrusive methods for such. So because we don't have the whole solution yet we just ignore the situation? By your methods we'll never actually help anyone.

We'll never see eye to eye on this, so I'll just keep helping those who need it, you just keep criticizing me for it, and everyone's fine.

[LostinVA]

185. No, we really don't at all, but nice try

[VP505]

13. Buried in the back of

my mind it seem that I remember that the Supreme Court ruled back in the 70's on something to do one sex using the others restroom, wish I could remember the details. I am inclined to think that they (Supremes) ruled that you can't keep one from using the others restroom, but I could be way wrong on that, anybody have any info about that?

[Solo_in_MD]

18. I want to remember that on the San Diego verison of Beach Cops recently

I saw a woman given a citation for being the mens room. She had acutally been reported as having sex there with her BF, but since the LEO did not witness it (!), he could only cite her for the wrong bathroom. Then again, the show was only on for white noise and I could be all fouled up...

[LeftyMom]

29. "their conduct"???? They mean using the toilet?

Yeah, that's really problematic behavior, that.

Here's an idea- kick out the people with the actually problematic behavior, the guys snapping photos in the loo and the women flipping out for no good reason (Women's restrooms have stalls, after all. Yay privacy.)

[sdfernando]

41. You've given me an idea LeftyMom

I haven't seen this particular solution mentioned...but how about a slightly modified unisex bathroom? I'm thinking a bathroom with all stalls having doors just like normal, only a portion of thess stalls would have a urinal, not a toilet. The stall door could be marked somehow to indicate a urinal inside. Anyone only need to urinate and having a penis could use these and not one with a toilet. Still not a perfect solution, but I think about as close as you'll get to accommodating everyone in a unisex bathroom.

[OnionPatch]

66. Why can't they just lift the seat?

I've never seen a urinal in anyone's home and surely men live and piss there everyday. :shrug:

[Solly Mack]

60. What you said

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maddy McCall]

174. Link, please.

Because I've seen no news articles that state that the transsexuals were peeing on the floor.

[Madspirit]

36. Secure areas and stalls but GROW-UP America...Unisex bathrooms...n/t

[Tesha]

53. It works in Yurp.

Strangely enough, that's how it works in a lot of European
countries: Individual, fully-enclosed, fully-lockable stalls
and a common washing-up area.

What a shock!

And it avoids the entire question of needing a complete
spectum of restrooms for all of the different "genders".

Tesha

[Maddy McCall]

37. It looked like a man trying to get the ladies drink special," Anderson said.

It looked like a man trying to get the ladies drink special," Anderson said of the cross-dressing patrons.

This bartender is an ASSHOLE who has something against transsexuals.

[Skittles]

45. I don't care who uses the ladies room

we are in STALLS fer chrissakes

[LostinVA]

51. EXACTLY

[Heidi]

57. INDEED.

:sheesh:

[gollygee]

63. I agree 100%

I don't see why anyone would care one way or the other about who was in the bathroom given that women's rooms have stalls.

[Heidi]

56. No disrespect for the women who were "freaked out" but if transgender folks are the worst encounters

they ever have in a public restroom, they probably have led pretty sheltered lives, in my opinion.

[LostinVA]

59. Agreed

And, I personally would rather have a MTF woman in the STALL next to me than have urine all over the seat or a used sanitary napkin stuck to the wall.

[Heidi]

64. Even worse,

syringes on the floor. There's a public restroom I've used (rarely, because I don't like public restrooms much) at the ferry station on the other side of the lake. There's secure, wall-mounted syringe disposal box, but it's not unusual to see a syringe just thrown on the floor or lying on the windowsill. :scared:

[LostinVA]

67. Ick -- no excuse, since there's a disposal box

[knitter4democracy]

61. I don't know about unisex bathrooms there.

At that particular bar, unisex bathrooms might be more trouble. Those guys were harrassing the transexual women and taking pictures of them. WTF?! I wouldn't want those men in my bathroom, and I don't think the transexuals should be in the bathroom with those jerks, either. Those jerks are predators, and they shouldn't be around women in a room where the women can't be heard if they start screaming. I'm just saying.

[gollygee]

68. I wouldn't want unisex bathrooms either

most men are fine but geeze you get there's at least one you can't trust in every bar. And at a bar he's drunk. No thanks - let the men have their own restrooms. But I wouldn't be worried about being harassed by transgendered people and they'd probably get it from drunk men even worse than I would, so I think they absolutely should be in the women's room.

[knitter4democracy]

88. I agree.

Who knows, she might know a great place for wide shoes. ;)

A knitting friend and I had a lovely talk with a transexual (MTF), and she was just wonderful. She had the best local tips for buying wide shoes (a problem I have, too), and she was just so interesting to talk with that we spent a good two hours chatting and knitting at the coffeeshop.

Those women don't know what they're missing.

[Katherine Brengle]

100. Those men should have been kicked out, not the trans folks.

[knitter4democracy]

221. Absolutely!

That's what I would've done.

[NashVegas]

69. I Don't Care If a Guy Wants to Use the Stall Next to Me, But

If I see a stream of piss coming across the floor at my feet, or see someone pissing in the sink I plan to wash my hands in, because the toilet is somehow gross to that person, you bet your ass I'm going to complain to management.

[Maddy McCall]

175. Show where they did that.

Show where the transsexuals did that.

None of the news items I've read on this states that the transsexuals were behaving in such a way, pissing on the floor or in the sink.

[NashVegas]

180. Maybe You Should Look a Little Deeper Than AP

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bastard/2007/08/dumbass_donnybrook_tom_anderso.php

If De LaFreniere had been an ounce more discreet when she/he and/or his/her buds were whipping it out in the gal's shitter in Anderson's, the complaint never would have gotten this far.

Phoenix New Times has several articles on the matter, none, I suspect, written in a manner that would please you. Nonetheless, those making the complaint against the night club don't deny it.

[Maddy McCall]

190. That's not news, that's a bigot's blog.

I've read numerous NEWS articles about this.

You really had to dig to find that bigot's blog, didn't you.

What an ass.

:rofl:

[noonwitch]

73. I have no problem with transexuals in the ladies' room

they aren't interested in me in any kind of sexual way.

[AZBlue]

202. Neither do I.

But what about heterosexual transgenders?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

218. They Would Be Attracted To The Opposite Sex

eom

[aikoaiko]

74. I don't know why but this movie scene came to mind.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

80. It's only a fucking bathroom.

If transgendered women are getting harassed in the mens room, let them use the ladies room. It's only a damn bathroom, it's not like it's a Roman orgy room. If other women don't like it, they can leave. Jesus, what's next, getting upset that women bring their young male children into the restroom?

[drm604]

104. Why don't they throw out the guys who are harassing these people in the mens room?

:shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

105. Presumably they would have.

But that's neither here nor there.

[LeftHander]

91. Look at that picture in the article...

That is a woman. A transgendered woman but for purposes we need to be concerned with is that person has every right to use the ladies room.

That club owner is a jackass and so are the women who complained. The club is afraid it will be come a "hangout" for crossdressers and drag queens and other gender "queers". (Which is how he is thinking) I say sue him until the cows come home as long as he has a issue with transgendered people. Having a unisex/handicap bathroom is a good idea that makes everyone feel more welcome. T people who are not comfy using either sex bathroom can have privacy. But to deny someone entry is simply wrong. Having a place that is welcoming to all is more important and a better business choice, particularly for a dance club.

What is between some person's legs is frankly none of our business and for the transgendered person is just one aspect of gender that may have nothing to do with the gender identity they recognize.

Brings up another question...

If a transgendered woman goes topless...is she breaking public nudity laws? What about locker rooms...?

At what point does a transitioning t-girl stop going topless and going into men's locker rooms, bathrooms, at the beach etc...?

So she can be arrested for indecent exposure but can't use the ladie's room.

You see gender issues are complex and need special attention. Having people freakout in bathrooms because the girl in the next stall has a penis is simply irrational and ignorant.

[knitter4democracy]

97. Add to it that the men's bathroom isn't safe, and there's the answer.

She's safer in a women's bathroom. I don't know what those women are complaining about.

[NashVegas]

143. If She's Going to Use the Women's Bathroom

She shouldn't treat it like the Who treated that monument on the cover of Who's Next

[ScreamingWhisper]

133. a few comments...

"That is a woman."
-No, that is a man genetically who outwardly dresses as a woman. You draw blood for a DNA specialist, it would test as male.

"That club owner is a jackass and so are the women who complained. The club is afraid it will be come a "hangout" for crossdressers and drag queens and other gender "queers". (Which is how he is thinking)"
-How do you know this is the bar-owners thoughts? Are you privy to his unspoken concerns...like say, the comfort and well fare of the other 99% of the nightclub's population?

"I say sue him until the cows come home as long as he has a issue with transgendered people."
-Issues if any would still exist no matter if sued or not.

"Having a unisex/handicap bathroom is a good idea that makes everyone feel more welcome."
-See my comments above on men/alcohol/women

What is between some person's legs is frankly none of our business and for the transgendered person is just one aspect of gender that may have nothing to do with the gender identity they recognize.
-True, but once that person forced their "business" and makes the others around feel unsafe, a larger picture has to be addressed. The concern for the other patrons and whether they appreciate their right to privacy being infringed upon

Brings up another question...

If a transgendered woman goes topless...is she breaking public nudity laws? What about locker rooms...?
-Sorry...Strawman argument. We're talking about bottom vs.top anatomy. But if I had to answer your proposed query...
Yes, he/she know the laws of our society. He/she chose to change their sex and must abide by those laws.

You see gender issues are complex and need special attention. Having people freakout in bathrooms because the girl in the next stall has a penis is simply irrational and ignorant.
-I think it's irrational to expect 99.99875% of the population to give up their sense of security and privacy for such a small portion of the population

[Maddy McCall]

138. Gender is not biological. Sex is.

[LeftHander]

165. So you are speaking for who?

The 99.9% of people who you assume have the same singular definition of gender that you do? I HIGHLY doubt that. I would say more like 33% or less have issues with transgendered people simply existing much less using a bathroom. So here you have a vocal minority holding down and limiting the rights of a smaller minority while the rest of society looks on either not caring or is outraged.

Gender dysphoria and it's applicable acceptance or non-acceptance by societies and cultures has been with humanity from the start. We are only now understanding more and more about why people are the way they are in terms of gender. Though other cultures have long embraced the transgendered as an accepted and vital part of society. It has also been found that for society to force a expression of gender that is contrary to how a person feels is unhealthy to that society and that individual. Intersexed children were once forced to adopt one sex or the other much to grave mental and health problems later in life.

FYI - gender as I have come to understand is based on three things:

1. Biological Gender Identity - The genetic description of male and female based on DNA. (Which is complicated by intersexed individuals that have both male and female sexual organs) Or the biological description of "sex".

2. Cultural Gender Identity - description of gender - i.e. the cultural accepted look in the role of "male" and "female". Which in our culture is complicated by the fact that it is okay for biological women to dress like men but the biological male is shunned for dressing in a female role in certain contexts.

3. Personal Gender Identity - this is the gender that the persons believes of feels. Basically when someone is countering the biological gender identity. As individuals this is expressed in mannerisms, demeanor, dress, and expression of secondary sexual characteristics - that BTW can be manipulated through hormone therapy and surgery.

So I say check your own feelings about how you regard transgendered people. Including not just the M2F transsexuals but the effeminate male, the "butch" female, the androgynous goth or other sub-culture group. Ask yourself are these people harming me or do I have my own problems and I am projecting them onto someone else. So many transgendered people being transgendered is not a problem but a solution and it really is YOUR problem not theirs.

So your point by point responses to my post only highlighted your lack of compassion and understanding. Nothing like a transgender post to really bring out the meat of people's beliefs around LGBT people and issues.

I mean really, "forcing" the issue. Puhhhlease...

As for my question - What are the laws? I mean if you arrest a M2F transsexual for bearing breasts at a beach why not arrest the male with gynomastia (sp? - man-boobs) as well? I am afraid it is not clear what the laws are in that regard. Who makes the call....the gender cops?

What REALLY needs to be done is people need to learn. And be more compassionate and understanding. Every group has badly behaving individuals. We really need to make sure we don't admonish the wrong people.

It is like scolding the dog when grandma farts. It makes no sense. Just let Grandma be grandma and leave the dog alone...now I gotta go...hmmmm which bathroom should I use....??

hehehe

[LostinVA]

167. Good post!

[Bluebear]

196. "it would test as male." - What an enlightened sentiment.

It all comes down to a test.

[Katherine Brengle]

96. I'm for the non-proliferation of gender segregated washrooms. It's insane.

It seriously makes no sense.

I don't *really* want to share a bathroom with ANYONE. But since we have no real choice in public, I don't care how the other people in the restroom identify.

I'm there to pee and wash my hands.

[Blue-Jay]

124. One bathroom for everybody! (only take out the mirrors)

That'll make things go more quickly.

[swimboy]

178. Don't try to be an expert on an experience you haven't had

I plan to respect people whose situation is different from mine. One poster says because one day a man might dress up as a woman and make trouble in a restroom, no TGs can use public restrooms. I think that as long as there are stalls, it is only a matter of who behaves and who doesn't. Let the uptight people and the complainers who listen for telltale pee sounds get over it. Have some urinals in the corner for those who don't need/prefer a stall. Nobody sees anything, nobody freaks.

[AZBlue]

200. LET ME CLARIFY A FEW THINGS FOR YOU

Unfortunately many of you are getting caught up in issues away from the OP! Many of you are simply not reading beyond the first part. Yes, it's a long post - but if you don't want to read it all, don't reply.

My OP was simply asking the question: if a heterosexual male who dresses as a female needs to use the restroom, which restroom is best to make ALL parties comfortable. If they are heterosexual, what's the difference between them using the women's room and another heterosexual male in men's clothing using it?

I've been accused of being bigoted, which is the biggest pile of shit I've seen in a long time. Not only does my post make it clear that went so far to look up the proper way to address transgender individuals (male vs. female "labels") but my first statement was to say that if you needed to say anything negative about the transgender community, go someplace else. And, anyone who actually bothered to read this post would see how open-minded I am.

As for fearing sexual predators - where do I even bring that topic up in the OP?? Show me! We have separate bathrooms for men and women and it has nothing to do with sexual predators and everything to do with privacy. If anyone's being accused of being a sexual predator here, it's the heterosexual male and female, not transgenders, gays, lesbians, transvestites, and so on!

Those of you who claim to be so "enlightened" and above us all on this board, lighten up and stop taking yourself so seriously. I posed this question to several gay friends, one who's best friend happens to be transgender, and they themselves were perplexed once the issue of heterosexuality came into the picture. If they aren't offended or calling me a bigot, then get over yourself.

Lastly, and probably MOST IMPORTANTLY, I'm dismayed by the lack of knowledge seen throughout this thread on the subject of transgenders, transvestites, transexuals and homosexuals. Perhaps we could all use a little eduational session on this - people are throwing around these terms when they clearly don't know the differences between them. Granted, many may not have had any experience it, but I think we'd all be well-served by finding out the differences and "definitions." I'm not posting it here, but the second link in my OP has some info as would any GLBT organization. Perhaps if we were all a little more educated, this community wouldn't feel as isolated as they do.

[LostinVA]

204. I totally didn't call you a bigot

I do, however, find some other posters quite... interesting. And very unenlightened, ignorant, and mean. Ask THEM about the sexual predator stuff -- they brought it up.

I have no problem with a technically heterosexual male transsexual using the ladies room.

[AZBlue]

214. No, you didn't - and I appreciate that!

It has been an interesting experience here! I wasn't sure whether to post this or not, fearing some of this, and I'm not sure I made the right decision, LOL, but maybe some have been educated by all this? One can hope!

[Maddy McCall]

205. What if the person is a pre-op straight male who will be a lesbian after surgery?

If sexuality is the issue, then, according to what you're saying, should gay men go to women's restrooms and lesbians use men's restrooms?

Sexuality should not be a determinant of who uses which bathroom. Gender identity while in the establishment SHOULD be the determinant.

In your op, you post info that's not really tantamount to the conversation, by bringing cross-dressers into the equation. Indeed, the woman filing suit is transsexual. Not a hetero male part-time cross-dresser, but a woman since 2004.

[AZBlue]

206. She defines herself as transgender, so that's what I went by.

And that's what I quoted info on. Transgender.

[gollygee]

208. The only men who are likely to be a problem in a restroom

would never wear a dress in public anyway. Some men would harass women if they were in the women's room, but those types of men wouldn't wear dresses, and anyone wearing a dress would get harassed by them so anyone wearing a dress is safer in the women's room. There are doors on the stalls. As far as I'm concerned, if the person is a woman, physically or otherwise, and/or is dressed like a woman, the person can use the women's room. I don't mind lesbians in the women's room and I don't mind straight men so long as they aren't men I'd have to worry about harassing me.

Actually, once I was in a public restroom and a man with three daughters came in to the women's room for his daughters to use and used it as well because he didn't want to be separated from his daughters. That didn't even bother me and he was obviously straight. A man accompanied by three little girls isn't likely to harass me either.

[AZBlue]

211. Actually, that's not true.

A guy I know is always hitting on me, trying to get me to go out with him and is very sexually attracted to me. I'm not attracted to him as a person, so I'm not interested in being anything more than friends and he knows and understands this. But, my point is that he's very heterosexual male and he also dresses as a woman in public.

And good example - I have no problem with a man who comes into the restroom with children either.

[Maddy McCall]

213. Back when I was a young wild thing...

I've had women threaten to kick my ass in women's restrooms at bars. Because they perceived me as flirting with their boyfriends or dancing with someone's husband or whatever.

I've seen women get in fist fights in bathrooms. (I've never been involved in one. I GTHOD when anger flares in there!)

I think that the greatest threat to women in women's restrooms are drunk, angry women.

:D

[gollygee]

217. Yeah that can happen too

but at least you're more likely to be evenly matched. :D

[Maddy McCall]

219. I don't know about that.

You ever see some of the redneck women in South Mississippi?

:D

[AZBlue]

220. So true!

But that's another thread.....
:D

[gollygee]

215. We might be defining "harassment" differently

I don't mean asking you out. I mean someone either using violence, the threat of violence, or exposing himself to women in the bathroom. Most men wouldn't do that, and the few who would are unlikely to be men who would wear dresses. I guess it seems unlikely enough that I feel safe having men in dresses in the women's room, and as I said they'd probably be safer there as well.

[NashVegas]

209. AZ, Sorry

This happened to your sincere thread. For my own part, I got upset with what I saw as a great deal of misogyny, and went digging into the story.

Anyhoo, seriously? I don't care either way, regardless of gender identity & sexual preference. As long as the stall door is closed for discretion, who cares?

[ismnotwasm]

216. Given the level of violence that targets

The transgendered, I'd say the women's bathroom. Even if it's a hetero. The myth of the transgendered "deceiver" has led to heinous crimes against the transgendered community. I have had 3 near rape experiences in my life and not one was by a cross dresser, however irrelevant that is.

This topic is ironic to me personally, as I just finished a great essay on the topic. From the article is a quote from Dylan Vade, co founder of the San Francisco Transgender Law Center;

"Why do some folks feel that transgender people need to disclose their history and their genitalia and nontransgender people do not? When you first meet someone and they are clothed, you never know exactly what that person looks like. And when you first meet someone, you never know that person's full history. Why do only some people have to describe themselves in detail--and others do not? Why are some nondisclosures seen as actions and others utterly invisibly? Actions. Gwen Araujo was being herself, openly and honestly (sidebar; for those who don't know, Gwen Araujo was a transgendered MTF who was brutally murdered)No, she did not wear a sign on her forehead that said "I am transgender, this is what my genitalia look like." But her killers didn't war a sign on their foreheads saying, "We might look like nice high school boys, but really, we are transphobic, and are planning to kill you." That would have been a helpful disclosure. Transgender people do not deceive. We are who we are."

I understand this drift of of your OP regarding heterosexual males, and I also understand that many women would be uncomfortable with this. I personally would be perfectly comfortable. I would rather see a transgendered, or crossdressing MTF statistically "safer" in the women's bathroom than take their chances with violence in the mens.

[kenny blankenship]

240. Oh relax people. You don't have anything they want...or won't eventually have a working copy of

which reminds me of a good story about a hooker and the Trump Tower. But that's for another time.