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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 02:20 PM
Original message
Criticise me and you're out, Chávez warns foreigners
President Hugo Chávez has announced that foreigners who visit Venezuela and criticise his government will be escorted to the airport and expelled.
In a televised address the Venezuelan leader ordered cabinet ministers to monitor statements by visitors and deport them if they "denigrated" his leadership.

"How long are we going to allow a person - from any country in the world - to come to our own house to say there's a dictatorship here, that the president is a tyrant, and nobody does anything about it?" he said. "No foreigner, whoever he may be, can come here and attack us. Whoever comes, we must remove him from the country. Here is your bag, sir, go."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,,2133334,00...
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 02:21 PM
Original message
How dare you call me a dictator
I'll just have to monitor your communications for that.

Not terribly self-aware, is he?
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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
32. Right, Chavez was ELECTED with over 68% - And has a high 60% approval today..Where's Bush who
Edited on Thu Jul-26-07 05:16 PM by LaPera
along with the CIA was feeding money to Chavez' opponent and using Venezuela air waves to trash Chavez....What is the CIA doing in Venezuela anyway, (we all know what the CIA is doing, subverting, lying & killing for the oil companies). What are Bush's ratings? We know BushCo and the oil companies will do ANYTHING to get Chavez out of office, anything, so they can get their hands on that Venezuela's crude...They have Iraqi oil, they are going after Iran's...the Saudis & Kuwaiti's play Busco ball. While BushCo steals oil from African nations....These sick imperialistic pirates...Chavez should shut them down and out of Venezuela!
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KAT119 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
73. LOL- Fascisistic Machismo!!! (not too funny)....
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. yawn
Old news comrade. Old news.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yeah - nothing to worry about there.
I'm guessing there's some kind of reasonable explanation for this; like when he shut down TV stations who said bad thing about him, and it turned out they were mounting a coup against him and so deserved what they got?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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Mutineer Donating Member (659 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Yeah he's just one hell of a guy isn't he?
:sarcasm:

I still do NOT get the DU love for this man.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Well, to be fair, some of the other stuff was defendable
It must be getting harder now though.
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dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
3. Well, that ought to dispel the notion he's a dictator.
:sarcasm: :silly:

Almost liked Chavez for a minute there.
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speakclearly Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-27-07 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
68. Floggings will continue until morale improves N/T
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lostinacause Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
4. Out of curiosity does anyone know of a developed country where
this is common practice?
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
5. LOL, does he have any sense of irony?
"How long are we going to allow a person - from any country in the world - to come to our own house to say there's a dictatorship here, that the president is a tyrant, and nobody does anything about it?"

Spoken like a true dictator...

What else is there really to say, but what the man said himself? No sense of irony whatsoever.
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ProgressiveAmPatriot Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. It reminds me of the islamists who killed people after the Danish cartoons to show that Islam
is not violent. The sense of irony is absolutely lost.
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Homer12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
7. I think Chavez is were Bush wants to be now....

....Chavez is a big disapointment watching the man become drunk on power. Bush Already Drunk is probably taking lessons.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. To quote the Breakfast Club
I think Bush and Chavez should go bowling.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
10. Almost everyone who has responded to this post shows so little understanding
of the problems and the realities of American nations coming out from under the US boot. The US is a terribly oppressive country and we are supposed to be a "democracy", but anyone who is advancing the cause of the poor and down-trodden, if that person should step just one toe over the line of complete liberal democracy, then he is nothing but a "dictator" or a "disappointment" or any number of quotations from O'Reilly or Pat Buchanan. Lincoln did some pretty un-democratic things during the Civil War, the Patriots of our Revolution did some pretty unsavory things to Tories here in the land of perfection, and we won't even discuss the French Revolution. The point is that when you are having to fight the entrenched plutocrats and slave-owners in your own country plus fighting off the murderous US government at the same time, you may just find that you are required to act in ways that might not reach the level of "democratic" purity that everyone here seems to think our own country and politicians measure up to at all times. Shit...
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. But that doesn't make what our founding fathers or Lincoln might have done right
Why do you attribute the words of the critics in this thread immediately to people like Buchanan or O'Reilly, as if one can not be both progressive AND disappointed in how Chavez is acting?

Meanwhile, your rationale, reworded slightly, could be changed into a rationale for why Bush must do "unsavory things" in order to fight terrorism.

It's too easy to call critics Republicans and decide that tactics we wouldn't accept in the right are just fine when used by the left.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. As I said, a lot of you seem not to understand what is at stake. You don't "get it".
And your and your confederates' analogies , not surprisingly, miss the point. Suppose that slaves rebelled against their masters and they won their liberty, but the slave-owners remained in their country and continued to try and re-establish slavery. Would you castigate the former slaves for treating the slave-owners in a manner different than the average citizen? If their new-found freedoms were constantly under attack by the former slave-owners, would you look down your oh-so-egalitarian nose at them for setting up save-guards against their former masters? "But their former masters must be treated in complete and utopian equality or the former slaves or else the former slaves are just fascists and no better than thugs!" Well, not in my book. This is nothing at all like "wife beating" which has been so callously analogized, it is about freedom and liberty and raising up the down-trodden and the former slave to be a full citizen. They must beat back the plutocrats and the former slave-owners - and if you, and those like-minded, want to equate that with wife-beating then you have issues of your own to deal with...
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Martin Luther King
Make your actions above reproach and they will have nothing to hold against you.

I think that was one of the points of the principle of non-violence.

You're still justifying actions we wouldn't accept otherwise.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
56. As I said you have no idea what you are talking about.
You sit up here and pass judgments on people who have been treated as cattle - literally, cattle - for generations. Your judgments mean nothing.
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liberalsoldier5 Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. You're rationalizing totalitarianism...
and you're telling others that their "judgements means nothing"? Wow, how pathetic of you. Now we know to take your opinions really seriously. :sarcasm:

As has already been wisely said, based on you're logic, Bush could be pulling the same shit (why not shut down DU and Keith Olbermann?) in the name of an all-important national fight against terrorism.

Plus, with Chavez coming into the United States and calling the president "Satan", the irony of this whole situation would be so much funnier if it weren't so true.

The enemy of my enemy is NOT always my friend. You can't really call yourself a Democrat and support someone with dictatorial powers NO MATTER WHAT their rationale may be. I think Pelosi sums Chavez pretty damn well: "he's a thug".
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-27-07 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #59
67. Nice post
Welcome to DU Soldier.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. A husband locks his wife in a closet...
And tells her it's for her own good that he keeps everyone else away. Next week, he'll be beating the hell out of her because it's for her own good.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Well, sometimes you have to do some unsavory things
as long as you can justify them, it's cool.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. And she will smile and say "that is what I want"
Sad really.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-27-07 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #16
65. The "sad" thing is that you think that freed slaves should embrace and treat equally
their former slave-masters who want to re-enslave them! That is pathetic. I wasn't justifying a husband beating his wife - you "liberals" were advocating for a beaten wife to take back her husband and treat him as a friend and equal while all the time he is trying to figure out ways to beat her again. That is what the US-backed plutocrats are trying to do. They are trying to plan a way to continue to beat the wife - and you think that she should just take it - that is sad and stupid...
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-27-07 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #65
66. Wrong plus Wrong does not equal right
This same theme as we see in Venezuela has played out countless times in the history of mankind.

You seem to think disapproval of Chavez means the approval of US involvement there. I would ask you to look at it from a different angle. I feel both are wrong, but for very different reasons and that is definitely not sad or stupid. I do not use either or thinking, nor do I subscribe to the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" or to "two wrong make a right".

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dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
29. Give me a break.
I suppose Saddam or Idi Amin were just doing their patriotic duty. Chavez has crossed a line here, whether you like it or not. You can't talk about how "terribly oppressive" we are on one hand and then give Chavez a pass for expelling dissenters.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-27-07 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #10
64. Seriously. And how many people (from Allende, to Llumumba, to Torrijos)
do you have to read these same MSM stories about before you start to wonder if the it's the news and not the left wing politician that is full of shit?

History, in every case, has told as that the MSM was full of shit.

Why do people keep trusting them?
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
12. Jeez...I don't know what to think...

Washington’s New Imperial Strategy in Venezuela
By Chris Carlson
Venezuelanalysis
May 13, 2007

First used in Serbia in 2000, Washington has now perfected a new imperial strategy to maintain its supremacy around the globe. Whereas military invasions and installing dictatorships have traditionally been the way to control foreign populations and keep them out of the way of business, the U.S. government has now developed a new strategy that is not so messy or brutal, and much sleeker; so sleek, in fact, that it’s almost invisible.

It was so invisible in Serbia that no one seemed to notice in 2000 when a regime was toppled, the country was opened to massive privatization, and huge public-sector industries, businesses, and natural resources fell into the hands of U.S. and multinational corporations. Likewise, few have noticed as countries in the former Soviet-bloc have recently been victims of the same strategy, with the exact same results.

Nations that do not give in to the demands of the empire and the expansion of global capitalism are targeted by an undercover, well-designed plan to change the political situation in the country, and open it up to corporate investors. U.S.-supported groups inside the country overthrow the president, making it seem like there is no outside intervention. And now, Washington has turned toward its new biggest threat: Latin America, and more specifically, Venezuela.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But what is even more worrying for Washington and their corporate sponsors is how this trend is spreading through Latin America. The Chavez government has built close ties to many of his neighbors, and many are following in his footsteps. Countries like Bolivia and Ecuador are taking greater control of their gas and oil reserves, leaving less room for the huge corporations that hoped to one day own them.

And so, just as they did in Serbia, Georgia, Ukraine and others, Washington has deployed its forces in Venezuela with the intention of getting rid of the Chavez menace. After trying many things over the years, including a short-lived coup, electoral manipulation, and mass protests, Washington has not been able to topple the popular leader. But they haven’t given up. To the contrary, they’ve actually just continued to increase their level of involvement.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The destabilization attempts are taking form in a concrete way in the coming weeks in the form of huge anti-government protests in Caracas to reject the government’s actions against the private TV channel RCTV. Opposition groups have organized around the government decision, claiming that it steps on their “freedom of expression,” and have organized a series of large protests in the capital leading up to a massive march on May 27th, the day RCTV’s broadcast license expires.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/intervention/venezue...


Oil Showdown Looms with Venezuela's Chavez
By Simon Romero and Clifford Krauss
International Herald Tribune
April 10, 2007

----------------------------------------------As Chávez asserts much greater control over Venezuela's oil industry, his national oil company, Petróleos de Venezuela, is showing signs of stress. Management has become increasingly politicized, and money for maintenance and development is being diverted to pay for a surge in public spending. During the last several decades, control of global oil reserves has steadily passed from private companies to national oil companies like Petróleos de Venezuela. According to a new Rice University study, 77 percent of the world's 1.148 trillion barrels of proven reserves is in the hands of the national companies; 14 of the top 20 oil-producing companies are state-controlled.

The implications are potentially stark for the United States, which imports 60 percent of its oil. State companies tend to be far less efficient and innovative, and far more politicized. No place captures the shift in power to nationalist governments like Venezuela. "We are on a collision course with Chávez over oil," said Michael Economides, an oil consultant in Houston who wrote an influential essay comparing Chávez's populist appeal in Latin America with the pan-Arabism of Muammar el-Qaddafi of Libya two decades ago. "Chávez poses a much bigger threat to America's energy security than Saddam Hussein ever did."]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last week, Rafael Ramírez, Venezuela's energy minister, sent a chilling signal to the oil companies, saying Venezuela might sell refineries in Texas and Louisiana that process crude from Exxon's Venezuelan oil fields. Analysts say Venezuela could be setting the stage to produce much less oil in ventures with American oil companies for export to the United States.
.....................................

But Chávez is chipping away at those ties by forming ventures with state oil companies from China, Iran, India and Brazil. Venezuelan exports of oil and refined products to the United States fell 8.2 percent to a 12-year low in 2006 of about 1.3 million barrels a day, according to the Energy Information Administration. No one sees an immediate crisis at Petróleos de Venezuela. But its windfall of high oil prices masks the complexity and rising costs of producing heavy oil. Meanwhile, the company acknowledged last month that spending on "social development" almost doubled in 2006, to $13.3 billion, while its spending on exploration badly trailed its global peers. And Petróleos de Venezuela's work force has soared 29 percent since 2001, even as production declined.

Independent analysts are alarmed by an increase in explosions and refining accidents during the last two years, which authorities brush off as sabotage. Ramírez, the energy minister, declined repeated requests for an interview. With heavily subsidized domestic oil consumption surging, the government spends an estimated $9 billion to keep gasoline prices under 20 cents a gallon. Moreover, Chávez uses Petróleos de Venezuela to finance other nationalizations, like a $739 million purchase of an electric utility in Caracas.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/challenges/general/2...



The New Pacific Wall
By Conn Hallinan
Foreign Policy In Focus
May 30, 2007

Some 230 miles north of Perth, at Geraldton on Australia's west coast, the Bush administration is building a base. When completed, it will control two geostationary satellites that feed intelligence to U.S. military forces in Asia and the Middle East.

Most Americans know nothing about Geraldton, just as they know nothing about other Australian sites such as the U.S. submarine communications base at North Cape or the U.S. missile-tracking center at Pine Gap. But there is growing concern Down Under that Prime Minster John Howard's conservative government is weaving a network of alliances and U.S. bases that may one day put Australians in harm's way. According to Australian Defense Force Academy Visiting Fellow Philip Dorling, once the Geraldton base is up and running, it will be almost impossible for Australia to be fully neutral or stand back from any war in which the United States was involved. Indeed, that may already be the case.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/intervention/2007/05...


The American Empire: 1992 to present
from the book
Killing Hope
by William Blum
2004 edition

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/American_Empire_...


Following its bombing of Iraq in 1991, the United States wound up with military bases in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman and the United Arab Emirates.
Following its bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999, the United States wound up with military bases in Kosovo, Albania, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Hungary, Bosnia and Croatia.
Following its bombing of Afghanistan in 2001-2, the United States wound up with military bases in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Georgia, Yemen and Djibouti.
Following its bombing and invasion of Iraq in 2003, the United States wound up with Iraq.
This is not very subtle foreign policy. Certainly not covert. The men who run the American Empire are not easily embarrassed.
And that is the way the empire grows-a base in every neighborhood, ready to be mobilized to put down any threat to imperial rule, real or imagined. Fifty-eight years after world War II ended, the United States still has major bases in Germany and Japan; fifty ears after the end of the Korean War, tens of thousands of American armed forces continue to be stationed in South Korea.
"America will have a continuing interest and presence in Central Asia of a kind that we could not have dreamed of before," US Secretary of State Colin Powell declared in February 2002. Later that year, the US Defense Department announced: "The United States Military is currently deployed to more locations then it has been throughout history."



A Timeline of CIA Atrocities

By Steve Kangas
The following timeline describes just a few of the hundreds of atrocities and crimes committed by the CIA. (1)

CIA operations follow the same recurring script. First, American business interests abroad are threatened by a popular or democratically elected leader. The people support their leader because he intends to conduct land reform, strengthen unions, redistribute wealth, nationalize foreign-owned industry, and regulate business to protect workers, consumers and the environment. So, on behalf of American business, and often with their help, the CIA mobilizes the opposition. First it identifies right-wing groups within the country (usually the military), and offers them a deal: "We'll put you in power if you maintain a favorable business climate for us." The Agency then hires, trains and works with them to overthrow the existing government (usually a democracy). It uses every trick in the book: propaganda, stuffed ballot boxes, purchased elections, extortion, blackmail, sexual intrigue, false stories about opponents in the local media, infiltration and disruption of opposing political parties, kidnapping, beating, torture, intimidation, economic sabotage, death squads and even assassination. These efforts culminate in a military coup, which installs a right-wing dictator. The CIA trains the dictator’s security apparatus to crack down on the traditional enemies of big business, using interrogation, torture and murder. The victims are said to be "communists," but almost always they are just peasants, liberals, moderates, labor union leaders, political opponents and advocates of free speech and democracy. Widespread human rights abuses follow.

This scenario has been repeated so many times that the CIA actually teaches it in a special school, the notorious "School of the Americas." (It opened in Panama but later moved to Fort Benning, Georgia.) Critics have nicknamed it the "School of the Dictators" and "School of the Assassins." Here, the CIA trains Latin American military officers how to conduct coups, including the use of interrogation, torture and murder.

The Association for Responsible Dissent estimates that by 1987, 6 million people had died as a result of CIA covert operations. (2) Former State Department official William Blum correctly calls this an "American Holocaust."
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/CIAtimeline.html


Stealth Imperialism
excerpted from the book
Blowback
The Costs and Consequences of American Empire
by Chalmers Johnson
Henry Holt, 2000

p85
The Pentagon's most recent route around accountability is: "privatization" of its training activities. As investigative journalist Ken Silverstein has written, "With little public knowledge or debate, the government has been dispatching private companies-most of them with tight links to the Pentagon and staffed by retired armed forces personnel-to provide military and police training to America's foreign allies." The companies involved are generally associated with the Department of Defense's Special Operations Command, which has replaced the ClA's Directorate of Operations as the main American sponsor of covert action in other countries. Nonetheless, these are privately contracted mercenaries who, by their nature, are not directly responsible to the military chain of command. In many cases, these private companies have been formed by retired special forces personnel seeking to market their military training to foreign governments, regardless of the policies of the Defense Department.
One reason privatization appeals to the Pentagon is that whatever these companies do becomes "proprietary information." The Pentagon does not even have to classify it; and as private property, information on the activities of such companies is exempt from the Freedom of Information Act. Given the extreme legalism of American political culture, this is sufficient to shield such companies from public scrutiny, although it would probably not protect them from the new international criminal court. Private companies are at present training the armies of Croatia and Saudi Arabia and are active in Honduras, Peru, and many other Latin American countries. Such firms also purchase weaponry from former Soviet states for distribution to groups that the U.S. government may want to arm without being accused of doing so, such as guerrillas fighting for Bosnia and in Kosovo.
... By several orders of magnitude the United States maintains the world's largest military establishment and is the world's biggest arms exporter. According to 1995 figures released by the U.S. Arms Control and Disarmament Agency (whose very name is an Orwellian misnomer and which, in 1998, was absorbed by the State Department), the world spent $864 billion on military forces. Of this amount, the United States accounted for $278 billion, or 32 percent, some 3.7 times more than the then second-ranked country, Russia. The most dramatic cuts in military spending since 1987, the all-time peak year, when $1.36 trillion worth of arms passed from manufacturers to buyers, have come from Russia and other states of the former Soviet Union. The Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) reports that in 1997 the U.S. share of global deliveries of major conventional weapons, worth about $740 billion, had grown to 43 percent whereas Russia's share was 14 percent.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blowback_CJohnson/Ste...
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. But what does all that have to do with
Hugo Chavez acting exactly like those that he purports to despise?

No dissent, no freedom. Creeping dictatorships of the left are just as bad as those of the right.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Absolutely Nothing...
There is no cause and effect in life. There is no logic. There is only one side to any argument and it is the right side. I will not question any reporters right to print whatever he wants in the spirit of 'free speech'..as long as it serves the correct interests. My mistake. I thought I was at a different site.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. One question though. Who runs the site you're using as a source
and who are the reporters in the articles you cite. I've heard that Venusuela Analysis is run by Chavez' own people. What assurances can you give me that this is a relatively objective report?
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. I am not using the site
as a source. I am using articles written by journalists that can be easily googled.
In the Venezuela analysis case that article appeared in the International Herald Tribune, as the link provided would show. The article the OP posted is actually from an Irish reporter Rory Carroll, who was kidnapped in Iraq when he was reporting on the Saddam trial..and was returned the next day...http://www.declarepeace.org.uk/captain/murder_inc/site/...
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. I am for Democracy
And Hugo Chavez is running away from it.

If Bush started deporting foreign nationals that criticized his actions, logic follows that you would support his decision to do so.

If not, I would call that cognitive dissonance on your part.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. I do not care
to argue over what is or isn't happening in another country, when I, and so many of my fellow Americans are clueless about what's happening right here in my own. It's too bad some of those people in an uproar over Hugo, can't seem to rummage up any outrage over my country's loss of it's constitution, and two branches of it's government. I do not know nearly enough about Hugo Chavez to call him anything...but that's just me.
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northamericancitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #12
37. Your post is a gold mine of infos. Thanks . eom
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
17. The thing is, he's talking about deporting
He's not talking about torture, or imprisonment, or taking possessions, or locking people in stocks and throwing rotten tomatoes at them. It's severe, yes, but it's not a human rights violation.
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John Kerry VonErich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
31. OK, what if what he said goes both ways?
Lets say he pulls another UN moment at the UN, and he is escorted out of the US, betcha $1,000,000 you would be screaming bloody murder on that. Beware of what ya say.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-27-07 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #31
69. Betcha I wouldn't be
Betcha you can't find ONE FUCKING POST from me supporting or criticizing him, because I haven't been getting involved in this issue. Betcha you'd better pay attention to what people actually say before you try to put words in their mouths.
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John Kerry VonErich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-28-07 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. Be careful in what you write
someone might get an impression that you never were meant to say, which you already did.
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liberalsoldier5 Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
60. Would you feel the exact same relaxed way
if Bush was doing it? Just asking. "Severe" doesn't begin to describe Hugo's tactics in my opinion.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-27-07 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #60
70. I wouldn't be happy either way
I'm just saying it's not a human rights violation. It doesn't help anyone to say that it is.
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John Kerry VonErich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-28-07 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Freedom is a human right.
nt
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
19. The Bush Junta is pouring money into Venezuela, to fund disinformation from within,
--our tax dollars at work--and the agents of that Bush funding (USAID/NED) have been mouthing off as loudly as the Bush State Department toadies. "Dictator! Dictator!" Their goal is to END democracy in Venezuela and in the region, and to re-install rightwing dictatorships, as in the days of yore (the heydays of Reaganite torturers and murderers, the 1980s). Chavez has really got the death squad people and their corporate puppetmasters riled up--with the Bank of the South, with the notion of South American self-determination, with his huge popular support in Venezuela and throughout South America, with the Venezuelans' successful resistance to the Bush-backed rightwing military coup attempt---a pivotal moment in the history of South America--with Chavez's and Bolivarian opposition to the US "war on drugs," and especially with the spread of the Bolivarian Revolution to Bolivia, Ecuador and Argentina (which have elected presidents who are close allies of Chavez), and to Paraguay and Peru (where Chavez-friendly leftists will likely be elected in the future--this year in Paraguay). Brazil's Lula da Silva and Uruguay's Vazquez are also Chavez allies (although not full-on Bolivarians). The Bushite gun-runners, drug traffickers and murderers, their Corporate patrons (Drummond mining, Chiquita Banana, Monsanto, the oil giants, and the World Bank), and their local fascist elite allies, have much to whine about. They are losing everywhere in South America, except Colombia--which Bush is larding with billions of our tax dollars in military aid for the fake "war on drugs" (war on the poor, war on Venezuela and Bolivia).

So Chavez has much to contend with. Here is an article that lays out the Bush attack on Venezuela, by a very knowledgeable journalist:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=1149...

Washington's 'three fronts of attack' on Venezuela
by Eva Golinger

November 27, 2006
Green Left Weekly

(snip)

"Golinger told GLW that she analysed US intervention in Venezuela as having “three different fronts of attack”. “One of them is the financial front, which the US has been pursuing over the last five years or so, by financing the opposition. This has increased over the past year, doubled in some instances. In fact, funding by USAID , through its Office of Transition Initiatives (set up here after the coup), is now up to US$7.5 million a year. But, more interestingly, the recipients of the funding have increased dramatically.

“'Two years ago, there were about 63 organisations receiving funding and, today, according to the latest documents I’ve gotten under the US Freedom of Information Act, there are 132 groups. When we talk about financial power, it’s not just the money; it’s about the penetration of Venezuelan society by using money to get into the various sectors. They find groups that are allegedly human rights groups, groups that work in the education system and so on, but are really working for the opposition.

“'Basically, the US is funding these organisations in civil society ... to obtain control in all different parts of the country. There are large concentrations of programs in Merida, for example, also in Tachira, Zulia, and then in the interior of the country - places like Barquisimeto, and the states of Lara, Monagas, and Anzoategui.

“'The US government has censored the names of organisations, but they’ve left the descriptions of what the funding is for, and even the titles of the projects. So we know what they are proposing to do with the money; we just don’t know if they’re actually doing it. In some cases, they’ve made an error and left names in. I’ve actually taken them to court over all this. The case is in the final stages in the District Court in Washington DC. It has already gone through the entire legal process with appeals, their motion to dismiss, and our response, and now it’s in the hands of the judge. It could be decided any time. I think we have a really strong chance of winning the case."

(MORE)

---------------------------------------

I think it should be pointed out WHO Chavez was responding to. It's included further down in the Guardian article. Also, Larry Birns' comments help put the matter in context:

"Sunday's attack will further polarise the president's reputation. He did not name any critics but the immediate target was believed to be Manuel Espino, the head of Mexico's conservative ruling party, who on a recent visit to Caracas questioned the president's democratic credentials.

"Mr Chávez said he personally did not mind criticism but that in some cases it affronted 'national dignity'. Hours after his speech the information ministry issued a press release quoting the remarks. It was headlined: 'Foreigners who come to Venezuela to denigrate it must be deported.'

"Some analysts played down the warning. 'I still subscribe to the view that what appears to be wrong with Chávez is more bark than bite,' said Larry Birns, of the Washington-based thinktank, the Council on Hemispheric Affairs.

"'Venezuela is not moving towards an authoritarian regime. It's just that when he speaks Chávez doesn't have a pause button. These sort of remarks cause enormous misapprehension and misunderstanding but don't really represent his convictions."

--------------------

Bear in mind that Mexico's Bush-friendly government--which many have accused of stealing the presidential election last year (--the leftist, Amlo, came within a hairsbreath--0.05%--of winning) has been engaged in a brutal crackdown on a huge, peaceful, democracy movement, led by the teachers' union, in the southern state of Oaxaca. It is also the recipient of billions of dollars in US military aid for the murderous "war on drugs"--like Colombia. In Colombia, plots to assassinate Chavez, and to destabilize Venezuela and the Andes region--which is now dominated by leftist, pro-Chavez governments--have been uncovered in the big scandals in Colombia, involving rightwing paramilities with very close ties to the Uribe government (Bush's pals), including the chief of the military, the former chief intelligence (Uribe's personal enforcer), and many Uribe office holders. These Uribe-connected rightwing paramilitaries have been torturing and chainsawing union organizers, small peasant farmers and political leftists, and engaging in large-scale drug trafficking.

It is a cruel joke that someone who is part of a rightwing, repressive government in Mexico, and may well be in league with Colombian paramilitaries and associated drug cartels, is calling Chavez a "dictator." It's no wonder Chavez felt insulted and provoked.

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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. There was a picture of Reagan in the newspaper office where I used to work
it was wildly distorted. The caption said that if the image didn't look right you weren't standing far enough to the right.

It would seem that one must stand pretty far to the left for the events in Venezuela to look okay.

The Green Left Weekly, for pete's sake?

You wouldn't happen to have something in the way of an objective source, would you?
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
24. He hasn't offered to be King of Scotland has he?

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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
27. Yup. Read A Thread Last Week Here About That Power Hungry Piece Of Shit Doin This.
Just further supporting evidence that my dislike of him and lack of trust for him, along with my perception that he isn't someone to be respected but instead regarded as a typical power hungry political piece of trash, is warranted.

Fuck Chavez.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
33. So what's the other half of the story?
There's always another half.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. Well, I'm not sure what you mean. n/t
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. I mean every couple of weeks there's a five minute hate against Chavez.
And it always turns out the big complaint that week turns out to only be a half truth, and the real explanation is far more reasonable.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. I thought his quote was pretty cut and dried...
do you think his quote was taken out of context? I could get the entire speech if that's what it is.
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
34. They do the same thing in Mexico.
Edited on Thu Jul-26-07 05:15 PM by Marr
Foreigners can't engage in protests of the government or they'll be shipped out. I was down there during the last presidential election and that was pointed out to me repeatedly.

Funny that I haven't heard that referenced as proof that Mexico is a dictatorship. Huh.
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YankmeCrankme Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. also, if you say anything bad about the king of Thailand...
you go to prison, and the recent government was deposed in a coup, but you don't hear the US vilifying Thailand or funding its opposition party.
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #34
43. And if foreigners do it HERE, what happens? Disappeared to Gitmo?
No country on earth lets foreign nationals fly in
and publicly agitate for overthrow of the government.

But I doubt the Chavez-bashers will let that fact stop
their bashing.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. and it never stopped people here in the US from advocating...
the overthowing of our government.

:eyes:

Bending over backwards like that must really hurt.
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Citizens, sure. Is that what is being discussed here? Nope. Exactly the OPPOSITE (as if you care).
As I said, I didn't expect FACTS to stand in the
way of a good Chavez-bashing.

They never do.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. So you support deporting foreigners when they speak against a govt...
just wanted to make sure where you stand. If a foreigner says that the Chavez govt. is a dictatorship, and they're deported for it, you're okay with that. Gotcha.
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. The only thing I've SUPPORTED here is honest discussion. Where YOU stand on that issue seems clear.
When you choose to "make your case" by twisting facts
and name-calling; when you don't honestly rebut what I
say, but instead choose to invent fictional positions
to argue against...

Well, then you clearly care more about some childish and
emotion-based feeling of "winning" than you do about the
actual subject you are PRETENDING to discuss.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. I didn't twist facts...
what I said came directly from his quote. You've attempted to justify his oppression with little success.
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. If you won't stop lying, I see no point in discussing anything further with you.
You have a nice day.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Did you even read his quote?
:shrug:

:rofl: okay, buh bye.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. But Chavez doesn't appear to be talking about people coming in and agitating for overthrow
All he seems to be talking about here is namecalling. If one should be deported for namecalling, then would our president be justified in shipping folks out en mass from DU? We sure call Bush enough names.

If he's not a dictator, then it shouldn't bother him to be called one. He's a tad bit sensitive, isn't he.
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. You really think he's referring to tourists making some offhand "bad comments" about him?
I think every Venezuelan knows what he's talking about
is a lot more than "namecalling". I suspect you do as well.

Given that US-backed plotters have already nearly succeeded
in a coup attempt, and that there's plenty of evidence of
more such plans in the works, I think you'd be a bit "sensitive"
if you were in his shoes.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. Sensitive? Paranoia is more like it n/t
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #52
58. It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. Of course Chavez THINKS they all are n/t
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-27-07 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #62
63. What is it with responding as if the other person said "all"?
Are we talking, or do you want to just bark like a fucking dog, Arf! Arf! Chavez bad! Arf! Me no likee! Arf! Arf!

You ever been stalked? Ever had some motherfucker try to kill you? People tend to take that shit personally. DUH!

Other countries get to pick their own leaders, and Americans need to get the fuck over it already.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #63
74. I wouldn't be deporting EVERY person who said an unkind word about me...
But go ahead and rationalize Chavez's actions to your heart's content. The more you do it, the more foolish you look.

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Help me help Earth Donating Member (217 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
35. Just want to point out the irony of this:
"How long are we going to allow a person - from any country in the world - to come to our own house to say there's a dictatorship here, that the president is a tyrant, and nobody does anything about it?" he said. "No foreigner, whoever he may be, can come here and attack us. Whoever comes, we must remove him from the country. Here is your bag, sir, go."

and this:

"The devil came here yesterday," Chavez said. "He came here talking as if he were the owner of the world. We need a psychologist to analyze Bush."
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Iverson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. You had me going there!
I thought you were going to say something about Cindy Sheehan. My bad.
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YankmeCrankme Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Actually, he was addressing the UN, not at a protest rally in US nt
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. And if memory serves me correctly...
Charlie Rangel said something to the effect of if he can't talk nice about the U.S. President he should get the hell out.
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liberalsoldier5 Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #39
61. But was government policy changed to have Hugo arrested and deported?
Nope! Charlie Rangel was just using his freedom of speech. Shitbag-I mean Hugo Chavez was just abusing ours.
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Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #35
55. The United Nations building is in international territory........
There are reasons for that.....one of which is so foreign leaders can speak freely in front of the UN.

Don't let facts get in your way though.....carry on.

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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
57. ok. he's gone bonkers!
first sign: failure to detect irony.
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Retired AF Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
75. An American was visiting Venezuela having a beer
at a bar. The American told the bartender that in America he could stand in front of the White House and yell "fuck you Bush" and nothing would happen to him. The bartender says that it is no different here, I can stand in front of Chavez's house and yell "fuck you Bush" and nothing would happen to me either.
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