Where have those in the impeachment movement managed to actually confront Bush's crimes or abuses?

[bigtree]

The bulk of them can't claim they've had any authentic kinship with the investigatory efforts of our Democratic chairmen in Congress who've managed to advance hearings and testimony, leading to subpoenas and votes for contempt charges against the White House.

Where have those in the impeachment movement advanced their concerns into action? Where has the advocacy by this crowd -- who has leveraged their campaign off of their strident criticism of any Democratic effort which falls short of their own dubious remedy -- managed anything which is in any remote position to affect ANY of the concerns about rule of law, or defense of the Constitution they regularly castigate other Democrats for their failure to solve?

I think Conyers' committee (as well as the committees of Waxman and Leahy) has demonstrated diligence in their congressional prosecution of administration crimes and abuses. I see absolutely NOTHING accomplished by the constant critics of our Democrats toward that administration accounting they say they want, as they regularly bash our party members for not moving immediately to some undefined impeachment.

I wonder where they find the gall to lecture anyone about a failure to hold the Bush administration accountable in the face of their own movement's determined impotence?

[ORDagnabbit]

1. maybe we just dont like to be lied to.

http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff07242007.html

Only a few days earlier the congressman, at a San Diego meeting on health care reform, had told members of Progressive Democrats of America that it was time to "take these two guys (Bush and Cheney) out" and had promised that if just "a few more" members of the House signed on to the Kucinich bill (it already has 14 co-sponsors), he would move it forward for consideration in his Judiciary Committee. Asked how that statement squared with what he had told the group of activists in his office, the spokesman said Conyers' "must have been misunderstood" in San Diego. He said that in view of Conyers' statement to Sheehan and the others today, the Kucinich bill was "not going to go anywhere."

[bigtree]

2. that's not the question

Where have those in the impeachment movement managed to actually confront Bush's crimes or abuses?

[AndyA]

6. Why do they need to?

Bush's crimes are well known. The spying issue alone is enough for impeachment.

What is the point of your question? Why would those in the impeachment movement have to confront Bush's crimes? Isn't that what Congress is supposed to be doing? :shrug:

[bigtree]

13. why do they need to do something other than just protest?

and disparage the efforts which are working to confront Bush, but don't fall under their one strategy? You're asking why they need to support something which is actually confronting Bush on the crimes and abuses they say they're so concerned with??

[dkofos]

3. Good find. Politics as usual!!

[Marrah_G]

32. You should post this at FR, they will just LOVE it.

[ORDagnabbit]

33. blind is blind...there are too many similarities between non thinking zealots...

[EFerrari]

4. You mean the Judiciary Chair who told us we could fire Bush

when we went all the way to D.C. to attend a protest where he spoke -- that Judiciary Chair?

And, how is this a useful gesture, bigtree? Shouldn't we be trying to find a balanced position from which to proceed instead of keeping this painful conflict going or worse, escalating it?

You know what impotence is? Impotence is grinding the same old axe but never using it as a tool.

[bigtree]

8. I think that's just unfair

You speak as if Conyers is able to organize the support himself.

I think that the almost seven months into this Congress' term has been as productive as possible. I still don't know why the dubious course of impeachment trumps the progress these committees have made. That wasn't 'business as usual' for the decade or so republicans ran the place.

[EFerrari]

9. No, I talk as if I was there and heard what he said.

You're blaming the wrong mouth.

[bigtree]

16. How can Conyers make it happen? That's just unrealistic to expect him to move the rest of the party

no matter what he said.

[EFerrari]

19. "No matter what he said." And there's the problem.

I hold him responsible for his word.

On edit: So, if his word meant nothing and could accomplish nothing, why are you calling ME impotent?

[bigtree]

21. if he made the promise, it was unrealistic

move on. It serves NOTHING to spend time dwelling on that. I think he meant well. He may have very well believed the support would materialize. I could have been convinced.

[EFerrari]

31. I think this is the core of the current conflict. Mr. Conyers

overpromised and on more than one occasion. People acted on that promise and now feel very betrayed.

People make mistakes -- sometimes, I think that's our job! And I sincerely don't think this was purposeful on his part.

But, it will take some time for everyone to settle down and process what just happened. It would be helpful if he would acknowledge his mistake in some way. But, I don't expect that he can.

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. I guess I don't understand your question

Are you saying that those of us who favor impeachment need to be helping Conyers gather evidence? What exactly do you mean by "action"?

[bigtree]

7. sure, feign like you don't really know what supporting their efforts means

I've seen what support means here when we've organized. The attitude toward the efforts of Congress by many, in their advocacy of impeachment, have been downright hostile. But, I'm explaining this to you like you don't already know the score.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. I am not feigning anything; I am just asking a question

How do you suggest we support their efforts?

[Toots]

10. Patience while being a virtue is sometimes hard to stomach

Especially when so many people are dying every single day because of this Criminal Cabal we are being governed by. While I am glad that the investigations are being persued and am aware that the wheels of Justice gind slowly but ever so fine you must remeber this is a Life and Death situation. People are dying..You want to make it just a political situation. It is a matter of Life or Death...

[dorkulon]

11. What am I supposed to do, launch my own investigation?

Hire my own lawyers? You're advancing an impossible standard.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. Good to see someone else is confused by this OP

:toast:

[bigtree]

15. we used to support our party in their efforts to confront Bush

I guess many of us have forgotten how to use our activism to pressure republicans into compliance. You can't be telling me that advocating for impeachment is all that can be done in this regard?

[dorkulon]

17. More specific, please.

What's the difference between advocating for impeachment and pressuring Republicans?

[bigtree]

20. plenty of efforts ongoing in Congress which intend to produce the accountability folks say they want

But, those efforts are regularly disparaged and dismissed by the impeachment proponents as inferior to impeachment and therefore irrelevant. I shouldn't have to explain how to lend support to those committee efforts. If they were something you believed in you'd find a way.

[dorkulon]

22. Actually, I think you should have to explain, since

you're demanding such explanations from impeachment advocates.

[bigtree]

23. explain how to support and defend our Democrats in these investigatory committees

as they confront the administration?

Do it in the same manner you would employ for the achievement of anything you truly believed in

[dorkulon]

24. That's not an answer.

Admit it: you can't even do what your OP demanded of others.

[bigtree]

25. I can't support and defend these Democrats as they confront the administration crimes and abuses?

or, I haven't?

demonstratively false on both counts.

You don't want guidance, you want a 'gotcha' moment.

[dorkulon]

27. I'm holding you to your own standard.

If I had answered the OP by saying "I do it in the same manner I would employ for the achievement of anything I truly believed in," something tells me that wouldn't have passed muster with you.

[bigtree]

28. I'd settle for the movement just acknowleging Democrats' work once in a while

instead of just pushing off of it to promote their dubious remedy.

But, everyone advocates in their own fashion. I believe the myopic focus on impeachment by some has precluded them from supporting other measures of accountability which may fall short of that ultimate remedy. How that support would manifest itself is an individual choice. I'm being deliberately obtuse because I don't really feel your query is genuine.

[dorkulon]

30. Exactly.

Neither is yours. In fact, what you just said ('everyone advocates in their own fashion') is a fair defense against your initial question. My point is that your OP is unfair and seems to be a thin pretext for dismissal of pro-impeachers.

For the record, I support any move to hold the administration accountable--contempt, censure, impeachment, whatever. It's not all-or-nothing for me. I don't feel like either Conyers or Sheehan are to be excoriated for what they're doing. They're both trying to do the right thing.

[martymar64]

26. And what have these investigations accomplished?

Scooter Libby is a free man, so is Tom DeLay. These investigations have proven fruitless. The bush regime has openly defied congress about producing ANY evidence or testimony. Congress has threatened contempt but they have no method or will to enforce it. They cannot pass any legislation that isn't blatantly ignored by bush via signing statements.
It would be nice if these investigations would bear fruit, but it hasn't and it won't.

How can you call bush to account without impeachment? You can't. Right now bush has absolutely nothing to fear from congress. It's basically all over except for bush declaring himself president-for-life.

Then what?

[bigtree]

29. are those results any more egregious than an impeachment

which is presaged by the prospect of an acquittal along party lines?

[martymar64]

34. You're right! None of this will work.

We might as well just meekly accept our chains and do nothing to fight our Great Leader. America as a democracy is now officially on the trash heap of history.

[ORDagnabbit]

18. fuck right now we have to pressure dems to into compliance!