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Why do men kill their wives? Interesting Boston Globe article.

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AllieB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 03:45 PM
Original message
Why do men kill their wives? Interesting Boston Globe article.
Subheading: Could some of these murders really be no more than "divorce substitutes"? The upcoming trials of Neil Entwistle and James Keown might provide some answers.

There have been 22 'intimate homicides'-murder of a girlfriend, spouse, or former spouse in Massachusetts this year. Mass. doesn't exactly have a high murder rate, so I can only assume that the number is higher in other states.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2007... /

Excerpt 1:

"It's just not that uncommon," according to Bill Mason, the elected prosecutor in Cleveland, where, he says, three seemingly law-abiding men have ended their marriages by murdering their wives in the last five years. It's become so common, in fact, that last year Mason coined a term to describe these kinds of murders: "divorce substitute." But just why men would choose to kill instead of leave remains a mystery to many.

Excerpt 2:

It's a troublesome trend for Jane Doe's executive director, Mary Lauby. She worries that the statistics may be an indication that domestic violence programs are underfunded and failing to reach those who need help most. And that affects everyone, she says, no matter if they live in Boston or its finest suburbs. As she sees it, the Dirk Greineders and David Magraws, who go to great lengths to conceal the murders of their wives and later make for fantastic Court TV, aren't much different from your run-of-the-mill wife-beating husbands who get no headlines at all. The most dangerous time for any woman in this sort of relationship is when she begins to empower herself, decides she's had enough, and makes an attempt to leave.


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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. Don't abusers often kill just when their victim finally decides to leave?
Edited on Sun Jul-22-07 03:55 PM by alarimer
That is supposed to be the most dangerous time.

My guess is that these other guys might not be physically abusive but I'll bet they are abusing their wives and families in some other way. I find it hard to believe that these are "seemingly law-abiding". My guess is that if you dig deep enough you will find some warning sign.

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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. hence Bush's executive orders
...as his administration sits on the verge of losing power over the rest of America...
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I completely agree that he wants to kill us.
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Not kill.. enslave. These idiots couldn't
fix a car, cook a meal, build a house, or connect a goddamn DVD player to a TV. They need us to do the work for them, so they can continue to shine a seat with their ass and act like their shit don't stink. Hence the drop in public school financing, they want us smart enough to do the work but dumb enough not to question.
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AllieB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Like that last line says
when a woman empowers herself, whether it's by leaving or getting a job or educating herself, the abuser usually becomes enraged. But this whole new trend as a 'divorce substitute' is alarming. In this case, the abusers are beyond sociopathic.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Yes, because to the abuser
it's always about control. When they sense they no longer control their partner, as they wouldn't in a successful divorce, they take steps to gain ultimate control.
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CelticWinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. The first year is the most dangerous
time for an abused woman.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
6. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
7. Good grief, our own little Taliban. And money is their god.
Edited on Sun Jul-22-07 04:07 PM by acmavm
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
9. It's all about control. It's always about control. nt
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Pattib Donating Member (396 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Ya know what I find interesting? That when a woman is murdered by her husband or boyfriend, we never
hear any discussion on why "some" men do this. Actually, killing in general. During the VA Tech shootings I kept waiting for someone to talk about why so many men kill. Is it taboo to discuss this? It just seems odd that you didn't hear anything about men and murder. Whenever a man kills the only reason given is testosterone. Which is silly, really, since most men never resort to murder in the U.S.
I think wife/girlfriend killing is reaching epidemic proportions, maybe it just seems that way. Why do these guys do it? Control? Divorce to expensive? These explanations/excuses seem so trivial that it is mind boggling.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. fear/rage/control are all close emotional cousins
and I think that they trigger each other. I believe that one factor is fear related to security. Not to "national security" stuff - but real economic insecurity that pushes mental stability toward the edge. Why does it seem that men are more prone to this (but is NOT just a man issue)? Perhaps the old gender roles adds additional psychological pressure? How about the daily rage sessions emanating from our media - get one worked up and in a continued frenzy? I don't know.
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Because they can.
:shrug:
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. I guess I don't really understand what you are trying to say.
I'm a guy BTW, don't let my handle mislead you.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Yup, yup yup
Edited on Sun Jul-22-07 05:00 PM by Sparkly
It is a valid question, and I've asked it myself. Still no real answers, though.
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PDJane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
12. Been there. Done that.
Didn't end up in the hospital, but likely would have. Did end up on prozac, which fixed the problem that made me a target for people like that.

However, I'm a large woman......with a cold, nasty temper, very, very seldom displayed. Before I kicked his sorry ass out, he hit me one last time, and then tried to hit my son. That swipe cost me $75. I put his head through the wall by the door, and it cost me that much to fix it.

He is still alive, of course, but he's inflicting his manipulative personality on someone else.

And no, it's not your imagination that the problem is getting worse. I have a couple of theories.

One is that it's easier for a woman to get a job than it might be for some men; women tend to get paid less. An unemployed house husband may take his frustrations out on women in general.

The second is that men who are powerless in the world at large tend to wish power where they can get it, at home.

Of course, women are undervalued in general, and it's easy to make them a scapegoat.

I don't know, precisely, what the entire problem is......but it is out there.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
13. Almost Forgot...k&r...n/t
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
14. I've always heard that men kill when she wants to leave, and women kill when
they think it's the only way to get rid of him.

?
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
17. The linked article says its about money
these tend to be middle to upper middle class men faced with divorce and having to lose part of their money and property. They'd rather kill their wife than part with 50% of their assets.

Maybe they shouldn't have gotten married in the first place.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. many people opine without reading the cited article first
yes, the men in this piece kill over the money, once they are through w. a woman, why should she have a decent lifestyle and be able to support THEIR children in a decent manner -- she should just die and leave the selfish pig w. all the cookies

charles stuart killed his wife to get insurance $$$ to open a damn restaurant

this isn't about abuse, this is about a cold calculated decision to save hundreds of thousands of dollars in child support/alimony over the years by killing a wife or a pregnant wife

we have a case in jefferson parish, louisiana now where a locally known radio personality cheated his ex wife and his current wife of a great deal of money, then put on a disguise as a homeless bum and shot dead his current wife -- by chance the murder was recorded on video camera, at first, the scumbag was going to walk free because he is friends w. harry lee, the sheriff -- to this day he is out of jail on bond despite having killed his wife on tape and despite leaving in his FEMA trailer (this happened after the storm) a "to do" list of things to do in the killing of his wife that ended w. the telephone number of sheriff lee, his friend

this piece of garbage actually has the nerve to paint his dead wife as the one who beat and abused him, er, yeah, that's why they are on camera, with her walking out of a therapist's officer, and he in a fake beard and shitty clothes gunning her down in the fucking FACE


i bet a lot of rich men do kill their wives and it is brushed off as a random, charles stuart's story of the black killers of his wife was unmasked, some other stories have been unmasked, but how often does a black man end in jail or the case go into the "open" file and the murderer cruise free w. all the $$$?

it really makes you stop and think



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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. the prosecutor quoted in the article
Bill Mason, is the county prosecutor responsible for putting the Sam Shephard murder to rest - proving once and for all that Dr. Sam did murder his lovely young pregnant wife because he was having an affair and wanted out of the marriage. Mason and his team have a special level of contempt for wealthy men who try to get out of bad marriages by killing their spouses.

Fortunately, Mason "gets it" and woe to any man who kills his wife, girlfriend, or anyone in his county. He will track you down and put you in jail, count on it.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Money is the main reason
It's that simple for that group. Why they don't think about prison first only they know.
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JacquesMolay Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
20. Insecurity about equality of rights in a marriage ...
... just look at all the recent cases of this in Muslim cultures. Breakdowns in patriarchal control ... some men can't handle it.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. don't marry someone if you don't want to support her at your standard of living
seems pretty simple to me -- the murders in this article were about rich men who didn't want to split the assets once they tired of their wives
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caty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
23. Men who kill their
wives, rather than get divorced, are greedy egomaniacs. They don't want to share what the two of them have gained over their years of marriage. And, these men think that they are so intelligent that they can commit the perfect murder and get away with it. They don't stop to remember that when someone is murdered, 85% of the time they are killed my their partner or ex partner. Therefore the police will always look at them first as a suspect and will keep digging until they find the evidence they need to convict them, if it exists.
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
25. It's like corporations that simply put the cost of breaking the law into the budget
It's cheaper to kill someone than to pay alimony, split assets, pay child support, pay a lawyer.
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conspirator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
26. Divorce is too costly? n/t
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #26
37. Some men thinking that they should have all assets, regardless...
of the woman's contribution to the marriage?
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. so it would seem
*sad sigh*
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. I mentioned you today...
in a lounge thread. Hope you don't mind my name-dropping!

:hi:
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
27. Men don't kill their wives. Men don't commit violence against their wives.
Nor do men kill nor commit violence against their girlfriends nor former spouse. Men don't do this. People with the proper chromosome and the ability to always pee standing up might, but men don't.

The minute a male raises his hand against a woman, short of self-defense or other form of appropriate defense, loses his membership card at that instant.

This doesn't really speak to the article, but I wanted to set the record straight.

And yes, I'm a man.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #27
41. Well said, flvegan, well said.
:applause:
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
28. Larger context
While domestic violence frightens me, because I am a woman, and because of that contemplating finding a suitable relationship does frighten me greatly (can I find an affectionate man who is not violence-prone?), I think we need to see it as part of a larger pattern of violent behavior.

Compared with a lot of forms of violent behavior in the industrialized world, we seem to have more of it than other countries, including spousal murder.

I think we seriously need to ask ourselves why we are so voilence prone generally. Is life here in the US really more anxiety-producing that elsewhere? If so, why is that? I think when we can finally look for the answer to that question, we will go along way toward asking why we have so much spousal abuse/murder.
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AllieB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Agree.
Why is there so much gun violence here, when a country like Canada has more guns per person? It's the demise of civil society. Look at reality TV if you want to look into America's soul. It's not pretty.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. That's exactly what I'm talking about
We are a violent, anxiety-producing culture. And it's showing up everywhere including our intimate relaltionships.

Is it this darwinian dog eat dog capitalist society we've built?

Is it our fears of external threats like communists and now terrorists?

Is it that all these factors produce a not very stable culture where people don't have anything to rely on?

I don't know, but it sure is curious.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. "Violence is as American as cherry pie."
To quote H. Rap Brown. But seriously, most of human history is a litany of larceny, violence, and murder. From the rise of agriculture until this very day 9/10s of us have been real or de facto slaves. And I think us guys do most of the violence because we are (some of us) better at it (bigger), we are trained for it, and we are socialized for it. Cultures go to a lot of trouble to train their young men to be good at violence and to glorify in it. I'm not defending that, I don't like it at all, but it doesn't really seem a mystery to me that it's still that way, or that it spills over into domestic situations, or any other sorts of situations.

I'm not denigrating your comment on TV, TV is vicious tripe.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
30. While money and/or control may be a major cause of domestic homocide....
...I believe that it all stems from a sense of entitlement and ownership. In this patriarchal world in which we live, all societies have displayed these tendencies to some extent where women are treated as property. The owner of which can do with as he will. And it has been historically vouchsafed by religion and thus given the sanctity of god's blessing.

Of course in our more modern times, we like to think that those baser human instincts are a thing of the past, or at least under control for the most part. But in truth, the foundation for it all can be seen all around us. For example: our census tells us that women slightly outnumber men in this country, and yet we see from the local level to the federal government that the vast majority of the people who make the laws and who mete out the punishment for their violations -- are other men. Which is why I support women running for office at every level.

Intellectually, I think all men understand this, but emotionally they don't know what to do with themselves other than to lash out when they see the world they were raised to believe was to be their oyster, crumble before their eyes. And sometimes, just a challenge to his authority to make decisions. And many see women who are empowered with money, a better job or education, as a threat to their postion. Particularly in these times. Back in the day when I was a much younger man, men held jobs in factories and could count on them being there for the rest of their lives. Now, two-working adults are needed just to scrape by. And being thrown to the curb by corporate America reinforces the idea that his worth is negligible. And yet women have raised families alone (as my mother did), and had every adversity thrown at them -- things that would bring a man to his knees. Why? Because it's not supposed to be that way.

When the expectation is for men to out-earn, out-perform and be the "head" of the household it not a long leap to understand that in the absence of another paradigm, most men don't know how to respond. And even when physical violence is not a part of the conflict, psychological and emotional violence often is. I can't account for why I never felt that way. I suppose being black and growing up in the 50s and 60s, I've seen my share of discrimination, hate and needless death. And its always the innocent who suffer most. And when young boys grow up seeing this, the cycle just continues.....

IMHO

DeSwiss
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
31. Misogyny would be my guess, even if the murder is to be with another woman.
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
35. men are so emotional they should not be trusted with their finger on the button.
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AllieB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Obviously, you didn't read the article.
Thanks for playing.
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Sanctified Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
39. This article makes no sense to me.
Why would you kill someone and go to jail just to save some money, fuck that, thats just exchanging one prison for another. If my wife walked up to me tomorrow and said she wanted a divorce I would be upset and sad because I love her dearly but I would also be like hey I can get a motorcycle, a bulldog and that new AR-15 I have been always wanting. Luckily I doubt my wife will ever leave me, we have been together for 15 years and still act like we are dating.
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