France can destroy much of US if it wanted to …

[blueinindiana]

I always hear people saying how weak France is but it also has Hydrogen bombs based on submarines so if it wanted to it could destroy the US, of course it would be destroyed to but France is somehow weak.

[fla nocount]

1. No No, France is a known player

like Pakistan.

[mainegreen]

2. If people think France is so weak, they should try telling that to the Foreign Legion.

Those guys will kick some ass.

[demosincebirth]

3. I agree.

Some tough dudes.

[PsN2Wind]

4. And yet knowing the Legion and

what they were capable of and with full awareness of their general lack of "rules of engagement". after Dienbienphu (Sp), the US pulled kids off a tractor and sent them to VietNam to kick Charlies ass.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

5. and the "paras"

The French airborne units are every bit as tough as the Foreign Legion, if not tougher.

[damntexdem]

6. Pah, those weak French!

They could have done it for decades but haven't. ;-)

[Xenotime]

7. If France decided to actually attack the US...

I don't think it could handle it. The US has too many troops spread all over the place.

[tabasco]

8. France is a great country.

I want to go visit there ASAP.

Only freepers and other morons think there is anything wrong with France. France has been this Nation's friend and ally since the beginning and played a large part in helping us gain independence. Any ignorant moron that bashes France just shows how stupid they are. But the right-wing has to hate so they have to have targets. Basically all foreigners are on the freeper hate list along with about 75% of the USA.

[Eurobabe]

10. Viva La France!!

I had the displeasure of tailing a freeper on the PA Turnpike in his Jetta with a Boycott France Bumper sticker last week. I got right up along side of him with my pimpmobile (the old '97 ford escort wagon) and he wouldn't even look at me.

I was going to give him the one finger wave!

[magellan]

12. Well, I hope you have a better experience in Paris than I did

I'd heard that if you try to speak French they'll warm to you (understandably, they have a distaste for Americans who expect them to speak English). Firsthand I learned what others had told me: Parisians have little patience for the tourists that are constantly underfoot, and even if you rattle off a hopeful phrase straight from a language guide you're as likely to get the evil eye as the assistance you require.

The friendly unstressed French are mostly found outside Paris, or off the beaten track within The City of Light. So my advice is use a guide book to hit the Parisian hotspots, then hightail it into the beautiful countryside as fast as possible! :)

[tabasco]

13. I was only in eastern France for a short time.

Everybody seemed alright to me.

[Solo_in_MD]

16. My mother found much the same there after WWII

Parisians really did not like her French since it was less than perfect, so she switched to German, which they *all* understood.

My experience was similar. Though I was fluent, the Parisians at best tolerated my Swiss accent though it effectively diguised that I was American.

[magellan]

35. A strain of anti-Americanism runs through Europe

American action in the world goes a long way towards explaining the lack of warmth from some European quarters, but I'm not very familiar with our post-WWII history in France. Did we lord it over them immediately following WWII or something?

Paradoxically, I briefly lived in southern Italy in the early 80s with the military and found the WWII generation very kind and accepting of Americans. It was the younger generation who disliked us (or more precisely, our military presence and anti-communist stance).

[Solo_in_MD]

40. The French has historically looked down on Americans much more than many here seem to realize

There have been issues going all the back to the 1700s. They have always considered themselves a superior culture with strong history and a major place in the world. However, ever since WWII that has been fading. While not a 3rd world nation by any means, France's effectivity is not nearly what it once was today, even in the 1960s. Gallic pride has not moderated to match. Recent examples include statements made how the new members of the EU should listen to their betters, the flame fest over the EU constitution, and some of the discord at UN and other international meetings when French was not spoken, even by French nationals. The Americans have nothing on the French when it comes to nationalism

During WWI, France considered the Americans as little more than cannon fodder. They declared that US troops would be used as replacements in French units. Gen Pershing disagreed and with the backing of the American government kept the Americans together as large units. In retaliation, the French declined to share Maxim guns and other military technology that would have made the US units more effective and saved lives. They also shorted US units on supplies and placed in the worst positions, be it for combat or garrison duty. This was not forgotten by the US military, even today. They only grudgingly admitted the material resources that turned the tide.

France dictated the terms of the Treaty of Versailles, and even after WWII argued for reinstating some of its terms. De Gaulle and the Free French argued for co-equal status with the rest of the allies and superior stature over the other Governments in exile for not other reason than they were France. While they did not like having to be support by the British, to have the Americans dictating terms and running the war was at times more than they could bear. Some of the writings from that era, from all sides, seem almost humorous today, but provide a great deal of insight. De Gaulle dramatics and Churchill's scheming. A good read for history buffs.

Most WWII soldiers were from rural areas. Some had never seen NYC let alone another country. They only spoke english, and some not even that well. There was not all that much fraternization with US troops and the local populace, the exception being the US Army Air Corps which was based in the UK. The US troops while well behaved (no significant rape/pillage/plunder) showed no deference to the French, and in many ways treated the Germans better, at least in the eyes of the French. Another mortal insult from Americans. There was considerable merit to the perception. The Americans looked at the French as a nation we were bailing out for the second time in a generation. Americans viewed the French as arrogant losers who refused to acknowledge that they owed their existence to the US. That the US spent much more on the rebuilding of Germany and did not adequatley punish them in eyes of France, dit not help either.

Post WWII Paris, the residents and the French government assumed the attitude that the war had never happened. This could be done since Paris was basically unscathed. Vichy, Resistance fighters, traitors, etc after a short flurry, were basically ignored. Anything that reminded them of the humiliation was pushed to the background. The famous French bureaucracy, continued to run the country, something it had done during the war as well.

Americans in France up through the early 60s were mostly dealing with people who had lived through WWII. They treated Americans through those eyes. Most Americans could not understand that, since our sense of history is about 5 years deep, and by and large we as individuals do not treat people by their nationality. A more interesting point is the next generation, who while disliking America is actually much more amenable to Americans. This is supported in polls as well. They deal well with us as individuals, but think poorly of the country.

Back to my parents, who lived in Germany at the time. Dad was an army medical officer, who spoke French and German fluently. Mom was fluent in German and passable in French. However, there was no mistaking either of them for anything but Americans, especially mom. In the stories handed down, there all sort of examples of them being ignored or constructively misunderstood esp in Paris. The countryside was much friendlier, and they loved the Côte d'Azur, where there were never any issues.

My attitude is somewhat different. I starting taking French in elementary school, since it was the language of diplomacy, at the insistence of my mother. I went to school in Europe and was fluent in French, though with a Swiss accent. I also watched the dominance of English take over the Continent and the world. The Swedes, Germans, Italians and others were fine with it, but the French government resisted and continue to, insisting on French created cultural item (movies...) and protecting the "official" French language with the L'Academe Francaise. Part of me empathizes, part of me finds it amusing that there are those who think that government fiat is going to control cultural forces.

The issues with the Qubecois are a microcosm of what France has experienced as the western provinces of Canada are emerging as the power houses of the nation and the Province of Quebec is becoming more of a backwater.

I still go to Europe today, keep in touch with those I know there, French, German, Swiss and in the UK. We are welcome in each others homes, but at least with our Parisian friends, be don't talk politics. Unlike my mother, I did not require my children to learn French, since it is really receding in importance. One of my kids decided that Spanish was important and nearly fluent. The other is less skilled in languages and settled for computer languages instead.

Did not mean to write so long, but its lunchtime...and this is a topic of personal interest.

[magellan]

41. Wow, that was a great read!

I appreciate you sharing your experience and interest. The info about WWII and how the Americans and French came to view each other by then was especially interesting. Next time I'll know what to make of that certain arrogance when it appears and will let it roll off rather than wonder what faux pas I've committed.

Each to his own superiority complex, eh?

Merci beaucoup. :)

[GoneOffShore]

22. When were you in France?

Last time I was there, 3 weeks ago, even when I spoke French, which I do, fluently, most Parsians wanted to speak English.

Perhaps you were doing what many Americans do, mistaking big city attitude (New York, Paris, Rome, San Francisco, Tokyo) for something inherently Parisian.

Of course, even if you "speak French" without dealing with the basic etiquette of France: i.e. saying 'Bonjour, Madame/Monsieur, excusez-moi de vous deranger" before you make a request, then yes, you will be looked at as if you have no manners and treated appropriately.

[magellan]

33. It was '95

High school French taught me to be courteous and use 'excusez-moi', 's'il vous plait', etc, and I'm not by nature abrupt or otherwise ill-mannered in public. My mama raised me right. :)

I was also living in the UK at the time and was never once in my several years there accused of being rude; on the contrary, many people I met thought I must be Canadian because even then Americans had a deserved bad rap for being pushy and obnoxious!

I have to say that I found our Paris experience most surprising because I hail from the NYC-metro area. New Yorkers have long been accused of rudeness to strangers/tourists, something I never found to be true. So when I heard the same about Paris time and again, I blew it off as the hearsay of some Americans who had met resistance to their bad behavior. When I went there I was determined not to make the same mistake. It didn't help.

For the record, we DID find some very nice and helpful Parisians, but on the balance our interactions were less than positive. My British husband concurs, but then, he would. ;)

[GoneOffShore]

42. Things have changed since 95

Or maybe not - We've been going to Paris since before 1995 and have never encountered the sort of problems you mention.

The worst experience I've had in Paris involved an overcharging Vietnamese taxi driver. And that overcharging cafe near the Opera. Every other time has been remarkably friendly. Otherwise we have watched Americans, English, Italians, Japanese and Germans be extraordinarily rude to Parisians - in that order.

[magellan]

44. Don't know what to tell you

But if you're implying the only way we'd be treated rudely is if we started it, you're way off mark.

We share the experience of the overcharging cafe near the Paris Opera, but we weren't bothered by that since we'd gotten our flights free (air miles).

[Tesha]

34. Your experience differs from ours.

Your experience differs from ours.

We found even Parisians to be generally the same as city
folks everywhere else.

And yes, we'd always begin in French and they would then
usually take pity on us and switch to English, with their
English being much better than our French.

Tesha

[pampango]

36. Our experience in France was that Paris is kind of like New York.

Parisians don't have much time for tourists or country bumpkins, which is the same feeling I get in New York. They are both great cities, but don't expect an overly friendly and helpful. Hey, they are big city folks with places to go and things to do.

On the other hand, I found that everywhere else in France from the west coast to the south, my ten works of high school French, with an accent that I am sure borders on the criminal, often brought out the English from people who were generally quite helpful. (It did seem like their English often gave out before their desire to help did and my French was not of much help then.)

[magellan]

37. LOL, yeah, that sums it up

I've heard it said that Parisians don't like anyone, particularly each other. I think that's somewhat dated though. Like anywhere with a heavy tourist trade it's probably more down to the mood of the person you encounter.

NYC is one of my favorite cities. I like its edginess. Maybe I never found it to be anywhere near as bad as it's reputed to be because I grew up on its doorstep? Hmm.

I'll never forget the time my friend from Los Angeles came to visit and I took her into the city for the first time. The San Gennaro festival was on and we stopped at a stall for drink. She said, "I'd like a beverage, please." The guy behind the counter stared at her for a moment, then called to his buddy with a smirk, "Hey, get her -- she wants a beh-ver-edge!" She stood there bemused, wondering what she'd done, while I laughed myself silly!

I try not to let first impressions sway me too much. Overall we enjoyed Paris and would love to go back one day. I'd definitely recommend it to anyone, with the advice to seek out the non-tourist areas for a more natural and pleasant taste of the city.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

14. They gave us the Statue of Liberty!!

And we both are united in hating the English (or used to anyway, until we got the imperial presidency of Nixon, and we're practically back to Divine Right of Kings).

[AngryAmish]

21. That's my favorite football play!

[Spider Jerusalem]

30. Since when have "we" hated the English, anyway?

Not for a century or so, as far as I'm aware; and really not since the 1860's or '70's (once the bad feeling from the Oregon border dispute and Britain's marginally pro-Confederate position in the Civil War died down).

Oh, and France and Britain have been allies since at least the Crimean War.

[uppityperson]

9. I think it is a macho thing. Because France isn't in your face bad guy, they consider it "weak"

Just because they won't attack without provocation, just because they don't over react, that means they are "weak". Bunch of crap in my opinion and it mostly goes to show the mindset of the person talking.

[lectrobyte]

11. And France is positioned so much better for peak oil -- mass transit,

electricity from nukes, livable cities.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

15. France does not need to destroy the USA.

One - They are an ally, ever since they helped us win the War of Independence.

Two - They know full well we will fall of our own accord.

Three - They are far more skilled and respected in diplomatic circles than is the USA.

Frankly, I am a little unnerved at the thrust of the OP, although I do regard the anti-French sentiment among the more ugly of the right as nothing short of completely and utterly bonehead stupid beyond comprehension.

France acted as our best friend when they refused to join the "Coalition of the willing." They were like your best friend who tried to make you give up your car keys when you wanted to drive drunk! I am astonished that the average French citizen does not now hate Americans with a passion, but they do not. Not one single friend of mine in all of France is nearly as cynical as I am regarding the "American Dream" or American government policy or the capacity of the American people to rise up out of their TV-saturated stupor and realize what a horror We have unleashed on society at large.

[Solo_in_MD]

17. The French have no real power projection capability

Their nuclear force, especially the delivery systems have not had major updates in some time. Its a strategic retaliatory force more that a tactical force. Like the Brits they have been letting much of their forces whither by attrition. The French navy, like the British navy is a shell of its former self.

France (and other arms producing nations) count on foreign sales to subsidize domestic development and get cost efficiencies. The French arms industry is still hurting from the loss of customers post Desert Storm where most of their Arab client nations went to US equipment. That has raised the domestic cost of new equipment to the point they can not afford it domestically in the quantify needed. An example of this is the latest LeClerc tank. Given rising social costs and the domestic restiveness pre EU style largess to their defense industry is no longer feasible.

So yes they have nuclear weapons and several delivery systems, their overall military capability is closer to India than Germany, UK, or the US.

I'm sure Tocqueville will be along shortly to dispute this...

[Selatius]

23. I don't think the French want to burn the amounts of money we burn on military offensive capacity.

They would either have to cut their social programs and spending on infrastructure to spend 100 billion or more yearly on a military with power projection or raise taxes to do it, and I don't think they want either. If they want half of their discretionary budget devoted to military spending like the US has done, I'm sure they could do so, but they'd have to cut everything else and give up much, like the US with public education and health care and infrastructure maintenance/improvement. In the US, public education, health care, improvements to infrastructure like mass transit, etc. simply don't match the industrialized world; it consistently ranks towards the bottom of industrialized countries.

If the US had used the peace dividend at the end of the Cold War to fix its house, I'm pretty sure most Americans would've gotten used to it rather quickly, all except the far rightists. Instead, US defense spending stayed above 225 billion/year during the 1990s, and the current War on Terror has the US spending easily 500 to 600 billion now. Somebody has to pay for it, and all the government is doing is borrowing.

Either the US raises taxes to support that kind of funding or raids social programs to support it, and I don't think most Americans want either.

[Capt_Nemo]

39. Well the picture you paint here is not that precise...

1. The french are now introducing the new delivery system for the strategic nukes, the M51
missile. It is true that this was supposed to have been introduced a few years ago when
the Triomphant class subs were launched but they had to resort to an interim solution
with the old M45 missiles. The subs themselves are state of the art, far better than their
Rubis class SSNs (that should start to be replaced in the beginning of the next decade
by the Barracuda class).

2. As for power projection, it is sure they thoroughly mismanaged the introduction
of the Charles de Gaule carrier, which is hurting their navy's budget to this day.
But when their single carrier is available the french carrier group has an air cover that
the british can only dream about, with E-2Fs + Rafales. In fact the Royal Navy doesn't
have aircraft to provide that air cover anymore. Their aircraft are ground attack harriers
without radar pooled from joint squadrons with the RAF, since the Sea Harriers were retired
from service more than an year ago. Oh in the ground attack role the Rafales are also vastly
superior to the Harriers. By the way, do you know who projected and is supposed to build the
future Royal Navy carriers? The French Navy as well as the French Air Force have also in
their inventories another power projection weapon: the SCALP stealth cruise missile (the RAF deploys this weapon
as the Storm Shadow). Besides that they are now introducing a new class of amphibious assault
helo carriers: the Mistral.

3. The only field where the german armed forces can compare with the french is when it comes
to the ground forces. The (slow) introduction of the eurofighter will even out things in terms of
air forces (counting out the fact that the german air force, unlike the french, doesn't have AEW
and air refueling assets of its own), but the german Navy will keep being a North/Baltic sea patrol
force for the foreseable future. So IMHO the germans are no match for the french in power
projection.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. Anybody who says France is weak...

is automatically stupid, and best ignored.

[Solo_in_MD]

20. No country with nukes is weak, but France has not been a world power for some time

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. What are the qualifications for "world power?"

[meow mix]

26. translate: they have choosen Not to flex thier nuclear muscles

i guess it could also be called social responsibility.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

27. That would indicate to me...

that they're a bigger world power than the one that do flex their muscles.

[Selatius]

31. The original OP was about military power. France does rank in the top 5

The only difference is the US spends far, far beyond the other four combined.

United States:

$276,700,000,000.00

Russia:

???

China:

$55,910,000,000.00

France:

$46,500,000,000.00

Japan:

$39,520,000,000.00

Germany (since Russia isn't included):

$38,800,000,000.00

SOURCE: CIA World Factbook, 28 July 2005

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/mil_exp_dol_fig-military-expenditures-dollar-figure

[meow mix]

32. the other 4 have what they NEED, and choose not to flush a lot of money

down a toilet, to waiting republican hands.

edit: and to be fair.. diane feinsteins hands :evilgrin:

[LSK]

19. the only ones who think France is weak are the idiots

who also think Saddam was a threat and that we are still chasing down a few terrorists in Iraq.

In other words, it is MINDLESS brainwashing.

They dont use the term sheep for nothing.

[aaronbees]

24. But ... but ... we have our freedom fries!

:sarcasm:

[Rex]

28. It is the rule of the rich.

Political boundaries will always demand a military. It makes a lot of money over the years. Not for the military, just the people in charge. Works at any era.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

29. France is probably saving us from destruction

France has probably saved lots of American lives so far.

[porphyrian]

38. The French are too cool to bother, in both the good and bad way. - n/t

[salin]

43. I spent some time last summer in Norway

visiting relatives on whirlwind trip. Spent some time at a resistance movement museum. Tracked the time from the sneak attack on Norway and the resisitance movement (and the Quisling takeover) through the end of the war. Tremendous heroics on so many levels from ordinary people. Heroics in the face of great risks. It struck me that I don't know that were our society, at this point in time, under the same sort of seige, that folks would have the same fortitude to create such a widespread active resistance movement.

This came to mind, because your post made me think of the French resistance movement. Those who were quick to jump on the "deride France cuz they don't back bushco per Iraq" - clearly aren't familiar with the very high-risk efforts of many, many French in the resistance movement. Those folks were heroic.