In the end, could this country elect either a woman or a black man president?

[Wetzelbill]

I have serious doubts about that. Not about people on DU, or most of the people I know. I do know people who probably would never vote for a (white or otherwise) woman or a Black man for president, at least not over some RW fire-breathing fear/warmonger. There is a serious ugly side to our country, one that is xenophobic and hateful.

I think back to the Senate campaign in Tennessee last year between white Republican Bob Corker, and black Democratic Congressman, Harold Ford. Ford led the polls most of the last year of the campaign. He ran a nearly perfect campaign against an uncharismatic sop who was a mistake prone and weak campaigner. And even then it took one racist ad to turn that around.

I think about the hijacking of the word "Feminist." How it has become a term derision, a noble ideal made a negative. The word has taken on such a negative connotation that even the mere mention of it makes many people crunch their noses up in irritation. Look at the attacks on Theresa Heinz Kerry during the 2004 presidential campaign. A smart intelligent woman who fights for herself is derided as a virulent form of "opinionated." She was called "awful."

It goes on and on and on.

Republicans are down about this next election cycle. They know the next presidential election will most likely be won by a Democrat, however, they also know they can have a shot by stoking up the racist and misogynistic fires in this country.

I, personally, have serious questions about the judgement of about half of our country. I also have serious questions about the racism and sexism that exists within a significant percentage of our country.

Now Republicans are dirty campaigners for sure, so the election will be ugly anyway. But if Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama gets the nomination, well, we will see a truly disgusting side of our country highlighted throughout the electoral process.

It may not be enough to cost the Dem candidate the election, but that ugliness will be there.

It always is, and it's no less shocking when it rears it's ugly head.

But, we know that there is a pretty good chance one of them will get the nomination. So we are going to see racism, sexism and everything else coming up in this next cycle.

My question is, what are we going to do about it?

[conspirator]

1. Who cares. The most important question is when will someome be elected to

be the voice of the people, not corporations? What difference makes if the president is black?

[Wetzelbill]

12. that's not what I asked

And I think it is an important question to a woman or a member of a minority group. What difference does it make? It makes a lot of difference depending on who you are and where you came from.

[unpossibles]

2. if we're not, we should just end the experiment now

how many nations around the world have or have had minority leaders? We're fucking pathetic losers if we won't elect someone based on skin or gender - and that scares me.

Land of the Free my ass.

[yardwork]

5. A female president would not be a "minority" leader

A majority of the population is female. This is true worldwide and in the U.S.

[Justyce]

10. Hispanics outnumber Caucasians in Texas now,

yet they're still considered minorities, so I think the term involves more than just numbers.

[unpossibles]

27. I know and agree, which is yet another reason its maddening

I meant it strictly in the typical political usage of it in America. But you are correct.

[yardwork]

33. As are you. I didn't mean to contradict, just pointing out the issue that we deal with...

[dmallind]

3. Actually I'm quietly confident

Wouldn't bet the farm on it, but a few acres sure.

To be honest there's not going to be a whole lot of choice next time. Absent some tectonic shifting one of them is going to be the nominee for the party that's getting all the money and all the support right now, with no good signs for Republicans on the horizon (again absent tectonic shifting).

If I had to subjectively guess I'd say more people would NOT vote for a black man than a white woman but close enough. However the real question is: "How many who would ever vote for ANY Democrat wouldn't vote for a black man or a white woman?" We ain't gonna get the KKK or Promise Keeper vote even if we ran Mr. Aryan Family Man 1994, so the only ones we have to worry about are the misogynists or bigots in the Dem or feasible Dem fold. Now despite our best hopes and efforts that number is certainly not zero, but it's a damn sight lower than the Reps have, and it's also most likely the softest support for the party that would defect anyway. I DO have a slight concern with some of the evangelioal Christian subset of the black population (and the white of course but they won't vote Dem anyway) being a bit hesitant to go against the biblical androcentrism stuff, but luckily as we have seen there is sufficient approval of the Clinton brand in that demographic to do quite well. We may have had a tougher time here with a Boxer or Pelosi candidacy. With the massive tilt towards Democrats amongst black voters though I don't see too much defection, and will be more than offset by the ability of Hillary to bring in some suburban female swing voters who could be persuaded to support her due to gender identity.

[GreenTea]

4. Not in this racially & gender bias country, not a chance...Wishful thinking does NOT

make it happen...No Republicans would, Libertarians (Republicans with a different name) wouldn't, many independents wouldn't, and I know for a fact there are a lot of Democratic workers who wouldn't, I hear them all the time.

Millions indeed would vote for either of them...but winning, not a chance...not in this country.

[WI_DEM]

6. Yes, especially after Bush. The country will be looking for competent leadership

and a woman or black (Clinton or Obama) could provide it.

[Justyce]

7. I think this is why the MSM pushes those 2 candidates on

everyone -- because they think the same thing. Sad.

[Flarney]

8. I'm confident that the "ugliness" will ultimately backfire should Hillary or Obama get the nom.

Let them rear their ugly heads for all to see. With the intense media spotlight on these very issues that will accompany their nominations (should it happen), I think the mass media, horrible though they are, will not be able to support/defend/ignore racism or sexism on the part of the right wing. I think, this time, they use their sexism/racism at their own peril.

[yardwork]

9. Yes. Many other countries have done so.

The people who would not vote for a candidate based on race or gender wouldn't vote for a Democrat.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

11. They Absolutely Could.

Of all the productive or even animated 2008 electoral discussions I've had with both sides, NOT ONCE has the gender or race been even a anecdotal factor in their reasoning.

I think a woman or minority could absoltuely have a shot, based on their charisma, policy, demeanor, intellect and resonance with the masses (along with, of course, the cooperation of the media in their avoidance of decimating them).

[HughBeaumont]

13. The democratic nominee shouldn't blame race or sex if they lose.

The democratic nominee should blame themselves for their positions and solutions not being convincing enough for voters to elect them.*

As far as why Republicans are allowed to get away with lying to the American people via straw-men, hate-baiting, personal attacks, tried-and-true chestnuts from the 50s, etc and not only their base but the unconvinced buy into it to MAKE an election close enough to steal . . . I don't really have an answer for that one other than people are effing stupid.

I think Obama has more than a good chance out of the two people you're suggesting. I think America is ready for someone like Obama, provided he can be convincing and sincere enough.

Either way, to avoid a 2000/2004, we have to ROUT. Not just "play not to lose" like Shrum does, but to ROUT.

* Assuming a FAIR election.

[wiggs]

14. They would have to be obviously exceptional in more areas than normal, IMO. Since

I'm in the middle of reading Audacity of Hope at the moment, I'd say Barak is exceptional and inspiring in many ways.

[Major Hogwash]

15. Yes. And that is obvious. Whether a Republican ever gets elected President again is up in the air,

I don't think the GOP will recover from the asswhipping they are setting themselves up for.

[Wetzelbill]

19. oh they'll always recover

anybody that entrenched with corporate America and with a stronghold in the South like they typically have will always have a shot. Maybe not this go-round, but they'll be back.

[Hippo_Tron]

16. Ford didn't do particularly well in the last debate

Actually it's probably more about the fact that his campaign didn't play down their expectations for the debate. I watched the whole thing and Ford seemed extremely rigid, trying to recite his scripted answers. Corker's answers were of course just as scripted but he seemed extremely comfortable in his delivery.

Again, the media played it up as the northern educated Ford vs the redneck Corker who started his own construction company. Ford was expected to crush Corker in the debate and he didn't do that.

Also, it is extremely unlikely that the Democratic nominee will carry Tennessee in 2008. Tennessee is more right wing than the country as a whole.

I'm just seriously concerned about Senator Obama's safety if he gets the nomination. To a lesser extent I would be worried about Senator Clinton's as well.

[leftofthedial]

17. we don't elect presidents at all anymore

haven't you been paying attention?

[Wetzelbill]

25. oh, I've been paying attention

Too much for my taste, almost wish I never did. :)

[EFerrari]

18. I think we could. Hillary's problem is that she comes with Bill's baggage.

That isn't to say she couldn't be a perfectly capable executive but it speaks to her ability to overcome the vast rightwing conspiracy. Imho, it would be hard to be a woman and to manage that, too.

I'm not excited about either of them, they're too conservative for me.

/sorry, horrible typin' day

[Wetzelbill]

20. unless I get the nomination

I should add. :)

Yeah, I'm not overly into either. I'll vote for Kucinich in the primary and take it from there.

[EFerrari]

22. We're working on it!

:hi:

[undeterred]

43. I like Bills baggage.

Yeah, he's conservative. But consider that the problems we face now make some of that irrelevant. There's an enormous mess to clean up. What I love about him is that he is incredibly intelligent, as is she, and he surrounded himself with intelligent people. She will do the same. And he will try to influence her, and that will be a positive thing. Sometimes I wish we could vote him back in again right now, blowjobs and all.

[EFerrari]

44. From blowjobs, I'm not caring. It's none of my business.

Nafta is so much more important and troubly.

[Warren DeMontague]

47. I disagree. I think Hillary's problem is that she comes with her own baggage, around Iraq, mostly.

Until she can figure out a cogent moral response on that, and her own track record with it, I think she'll have problems.

[pitohui]

21. of course we can, just look around the world and see for yourself

do you think the usa more sexist or racist than say pakistan yet at one point they had a bright, intelligent female prime minister

sexist/racist people just make little exceptions in their mind, so if they decide they want the woman or the black dude, they will find a way to overlook the fact that she's female or he's black


i have to admit the funniest one i heard was from a friend who is sadly a racist -- when the colts won the superbowl, the team my friend was rooting for, he said to me that tony dungy is not really black! i about fell out of my chair! but since my friend wanted dungy to win, and he did win, i guess that's proof in his twisted little brain?

i don't know whether this should give me hope or no hope for humanity but it does tell me that people can justify anything in their support of a person they like

i've also heard a number of rednecks gossiping in the casinos, speaking favorably of clinton, well, maybe even rednecks in casinos are more liberal than rednecks in church, but i think a good many of the "good old boys" do like hilary

[JVS]

23. Could we elect someone who never supported this stupid fucking war in Iraq?

[Wetzelbill]

24. that would be fine with me

not what I was getting at, but, I feel your pain. :)

[IChing]

26. Condoleezza Rice for President solves both problems- female and black

There, are we satisfied? You want her website?

LOL:) :rofl: :rofl:

[EFerrari]

28. Please don't take me there!

:scared:

[Wetzelbill]

29. you are a sick, sick person

:) Effing hilarious though! :rofl:

[IChing]

39. That is why your discussion is mute!

[mmonk]

30. Yes, I think so but is that really

the issues we are dealing with right now?

[Wetzelbill]

31. it's an issue many people deal with every day of their lives

so yes it is.

[mmonk]

38. Just wondering with the constitution on the rocks and all.

[OHdem10]

32. Quite simply, this gives GOP hope. that they have a chance

to win the election.

This tells us our candidates had better be willing to get
down and dirty. I am not saying initiate but fight back and
fight back hard.

Our Party had better work on this. Past elections have shown
they either find it distasteful or they are simply unwilling.

My point is work as if we expect the country not ready and
the GOP will exploit it. Be Ready BE Ready

[MrSlayer]

34. Sadly, I think not.

People will say they will vote that way right up until they get into the booth, then they'll vote for the white guy. I think Iowa will recognize this and vote Edwards in and the rest of the states will follow suit with few exceptions. This Assumes Al Gore hasn't stepped up to the plate by then. If Gore gets in, it's his to lose.

[NotGivingUp]

35. no, i don't think so...and that's why the corporatocracy has chosen them for us.

it will inspire all those that wouldn't stand for a woman or a black president to get out there and vote against them.

[Ronnie]

36. All the Republican candidates, declared and undeclared,

are so lame. If it can't be done this time, then when?

[EndElectoral]

37. sigh...how about we just elect a good president? whether they're purple or green.

[undeterred]

40. I am so fricking tired of arrogant pasty old white men being in charge

everywhere I go that I don't think I will ever again vote for one, work for one, have sex with one, or drive down the street without hitting at least one or two.

So as far as I'm concerned, ready.

[trashcanistanista]

41. Yes

If they're a Dem of course.

[leftchick]

42. no with a caveat

The CORPORATE owned women and black men! I believe that is the REAL issue.

[Raine]

45. No

unfortunately I honest to God don't believe this country is ready to do it not now and not anywhere in the near future. :-(

[Warren DeMontague]

46. Fuck that. Lets get a black drag queen in there.

I say, go for broke.