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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:19 AM
Original message
What do parents have to "put up with" from the childfree?
Several posts on the toddler that was talking on the plane. And every few weeks there are threads about one of them in a restaurant or movies. Some people post here that everyone should have to just put up with whatever children do because they are children. Some feel that some behavior should be put up with and some is over the line. And every point between. So what do families have to "put up with" from us the childfree? Just want to hear what we do that inconveniences or disrupts you.
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. Sarcasm much?
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. No
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:24 AM
Response to Original message
3. Nothing
Now go to bed young man!
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:26 AM
Response to Original message
4. You think whining is bad when it comes from kids, it's far less tolerable from so-called adults.
Edited on Mon Jul-16-07 02:28 AM by impeachdubya
"Some people post here that everyone should have to just put up with whatever children do because they are children."

Got a link? Or is that the same "Some People" made famous by FOX News?
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:27 AM
Response to Original message
5. Bitching, moaning, dirty looks, vile, muttered oaths...
My kids are angels compared to some of those I deal with on a daily basis. Try cleaning up after the little monsters after they've gone through the toy department with little or no supervision from parental units.

Of course, that's part of my job. I know how kids are and I have hopes that they'll grow out of some of it (though I have to wonder, since plenty of adults will throw stuff down any ol' place, leaving it to us to clean up).

I think childless people just bitch too much. And I'm childless about 50 weeks out of the year. But kids don't make me crazy, they don't get on my last nerve, and they don't make me write diatribes about how evil the little fuckers are.

Kids are a LOT easier to tolerate than self-righteous, uptight, and bitchy adults.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:27 AM
Response to Original message
6. i have seen parents who teach their children to behave
whether it's just telling your child to be quiet or don't touch. some parents don't even do that.

in the case of that mother and child on the plane, i don't know exactly what happened but the reaction seemed to have gone too far. i can understand why it was annoying and the mother could have at least told her child to be quiet.


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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Here's what happened. A baby -- only 19 months old --
was talking. After already having been on another flight that day -- and a 12 hour layover -- she was repeating the words "bye bye plane."

This annoyed the flight attendant (but apparently no one else on the plane) who told the mother to drug the baby with benadryl to make her shut up. The mother refused.

The flight attendant made an illegal demand. You can't require a parent to drug a child in order to stay on a plane.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Frankly, I hope the airline fires her. After reading more about this story, I expect that they will.
In fact, I'll be happy to contact the company management to give 'em my 2 cents on the matter. This is as bad as the anti-breastfeeding fascists.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Either that, or she needs a nice long medical leave,
if she's been under too much stress lately.
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silverojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 04:44 AM
Response to Reply #13
41. Anti-breastfeeding fascists?
Yes, breastfeeding is natural. Urinating and defacating are natural functions, too...but we do these things in private. Nobody is discouraging breastfeeding, just asking that you don't do it in public. A car, a dressing room, a restroom, any number of places are readily available for breastfeeding in private. Only a closet exhibitionist would WANT a horde of perfect strangers looking at her breasts, anyway. :eyes:

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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #41
47. On a plane, there is no place for breastfeeding except in a seat.
A restroom is never a place for eating, for a person of any age.

And on an airplane, not only would it be extremely cramped and unsanitary, but the other passengers would surely object to the use of a restroom for the 30-45 minutes it could take to finish the job.

But this mother wasn't even trying to breastfeed her child. She merely objected to drugging the baby into silence.
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HeeBGBz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #41
60. Spoken by the apparently clueless
You sound like breastfeeders pop the titties out for all to see. Most persons breastfeeding can accomplish the feeding without a flash of any skin. Unless you are deliberately ogling and trying to see something.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #41
63. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #41
65. argh - breastfeeding is not sexual in ANY way.
Our entire culture is so incredibly screwed up about almost everything.
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #65
116. Oh yeah! Chapped sore red nipples covered in vitamin E to prevent pain and further damage
Little kid sucking away making cute little sucking noises. Mother bouncing the kid up in down and wincing from possible teeth pain.

Oh yeah... TOTALLY Sexual. :sarcasm:
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #116
238. BTW, Vitamin E is a no-no. Too much E going into a kid's
belly can be toxic, as if we took an overdose of Vitmin E or another fat-soluable vitamin.

Pure lanolin or just the breastmilk are two of the best things for sore nipples. Seeing a La LEche League leader or IBCLC is best for finding out why the baby's latch may not be good.
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RayOfHope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #41
67. Then surely you won't mind taking *your* meals in the restroom.
What a clueless and backward notion, to put breastfeeding and eliminating waste in the same category.
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #41
79. People live in public
it's not possible to always find a clean, comfortable private spot. And when a baby gets hungry, it's best to just feed them right away rather than wander around searching for someplace without hypersensitive people who equate breastfeeding to exhibitionism.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #41
82. there is so much wrong with your post - I am just going to let it go
and sadly shake my head.
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #82
200. Yeah, I tried to write a response, too. Words fail.

:wow:

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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #41
83. You compare breastfeeding
with urination and defecation? One is giving nourishment -- universally excepted EXCEPT in puritan America and the other is eliminating waste -- universally considered unpleasant and unclean. Nourishment vs. waste. Where is the comparison?

Tell you what, for the next week, YOU eat in your car, a dressing room, a restroom and let us know what your experience was like.

Closet exhibitionist??? OMG! Are you serious? You do know that FEEDING CHILDREN is what mammary glands are SUPPOSED to do, right? And unless mom has twins, both breasts are not usually exposed. And why would there be a "hoard of perfect strangers looking at her breasts?" I don't recall ever seeing that reaction to breast-feeding mothers.

I'm sorry, your post is just too weird. It's like something out of the 1950's.
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #41
89. Scared of mammaries, much?.
:scared: MKJ
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motocicleta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #41
95. From me to you:
You are discouraging breastfeeding, regardless of what you think you are doing. Please stop speaking from ignorance. It is embarrassing.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #41
100. Do you eat in a bathroom?
Or a car?

If breastfeeding annoys you so much, maybe YOU should go to the bathroom or a car to finish your meal so you won't be offended by mammary glands.

:eyes:
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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #41
112. Give me a fucking break
:nopity:
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youthere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #41
151. When my kids were babies and they were hungry...
I could give a shit less if my tits appeared in technicolor on the Jumbotron in the SkyDome.
Only a clueless perv would WANT to peep while a woman is nursing.

Urinating and Defecating (menstruation too) are how the body rids itself of WASTE. Breast milk is not waste.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #41
164. We're mammals. The shame! The shame! Mammals should stay in the closet!
Amazing. :eyes:
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #41
174. do you shit where you eat? A restroom, oh no you didn't.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #41
176. If people notice that a woman is breastfeeding, most don't stare.
Apparently you do.
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SayWhatYo Donating Member (991 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #41
205. I ask the baby to share...
actually, that's kinda nasty now that I think about.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #41
223. "Just asking that you don't do it in public". THANK YOU FOR PROVING MY POINT.
Edited on Mon Jul-16-07 02:22 PM by impeachdubya
By providing a perfect example of some of the (thankfully, rare, at least around here) anti-breastfeeding lunacy people have to put up with.

:eyes:, yourself. You CLEARLY don't get it.

Oh, and you might want to stay the fuck out of states like California- where the RIGHT to breastfeed- yes, IN PUBLIC- is protected BY LAW. :woohoo:
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #9
72. That simple
What's more that woman paid for a service and was kicked off that plane for no good reason.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. "the mother could have at least told her child to be quiet." ....How do you know she didn't?
http://www.todaysthv.com/news/news.aspx?storyid=48906

Penland said the plane was small and other passengers could see and hear her and the flight attendant clearly. Penland said the passengers began speaking up for her, telling the flight attendant they were not disturbed by Garren's talking and that the flight to Oklahoma City from Houston was only one hour, anyway.

"It was ludicrous," one of the passengers, Stacey Watts, said from her home near Oklahoma City. "I even heard somebody from the back of the plane call out there, 'You telling me there's a switch on kids all these years?


http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=local&id=5472...

"Katie was in shock at that point," Watts explained. "You could tell. She was in row 3 and I was in row 6. She just kept saying, 'I don't know what you expect me to do. I don't know what you expect me to do.'"


Right. She's getting kicked off a plane she just waited 11 fucking hours to board, a psycho Flight Attendant is ordering her to silence her kid, but she obviously didn't think or wasn't willing to tell him to be quiet.

Maybe what you don't grasp is, when you tell a 19 month old to do something like stop talking, they don't always do it.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. so what ?
i read somewhere that the mother didn't tell the child to even be quiet. it could have been wrong or maybe i misread.

but i don't see why you would be surprised that there are parents who refuse to discipline their children in any way including just telling them to be quiet.

as i said, i thought the airline went over line in kicking them off the plane.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. Have you ever tried to "tell" a 19 month old to "be quiet"?
It doesn't work that way. A 19 month old is still very much a baby.
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nini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #22
147. bullshit
do you not tell them to not go near the stove? do you tell them not to steal a toy from another kid? do you not teach them to not go out the front door? To not play in the toilet?

THEN why the fuck can't you say 'shhhh' or play the whisper game with them to teach them to bring the level of their voice down? Somehow they need to learn this and waiting until they're 16 doesn't cut it.

YOUR REMARK IS EXACTLY WHY THERE ARE SPOILED BRATS OUT THERE THAT DRIVE THE REST OF US NUTS!


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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #147
152. woohooo!!!! thank you, thank you, thank you!
your post sums up what my problems are with "breeders"

real parents actually try to teach and mold and shape their children's behavior and personality into someone civilized.
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nini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #152
209. no one said parenting isn't a tough job
but it's a job you must do ALL THE TIME and I'm not sure why they don't get that :shrug:

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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #147
185. When you're at your house, you can do that because if it causes the 19-month-old to have a tantrum
it won't bother anyone else. The kid was saying, "bye-bye plane". That's all. Was every other passenger on the plane silent? I doubt it - I've flown a lot and that's never been the case during the safety speech on a flight I've been on.

Also, there is a lot of room between 19 months and 16 years to teach these things. A 19-month-old is still a baby.
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nini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #185
207. I'm speaking in general terms since this topic always goes there
Tantrum? Kids won't continue to use the tantrum thing if you do not submit to their demands. So, if your kid is having tantrums it's your fault because you've allowed them to dictate what's going on. That is exactly the problem with children who do not respond to a parent trying to control them in public - they haven't been shown their are boundaries in life.

A 19 month old is walking and beginning to talk etc - no?? They are not braindead and need to learn that their actions can hurt them, hence the teaching them to not go near the stove, not run into the street if they get away from you etc.. You obviously need to use a different method with a toddler than a 5 year old but you need to do something.





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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #207
232. Do you have kids?
Kids won't use tantrums if they don't work? Yeah, at some point they figure that out, but 19 months isn't that point. It is developmentally NORMAL for all kids to tantrum till about 3 or so. In fact, my daughter's pediatrician has it on their list of questions they ask at well child visits - I asked why and she said it's because if a 2-year-old hasn't had tantrums they have to consider if there is something wrong.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #147
226. Assuming this woman tried that- and according to the accounts of OTHER PASSENGERS who heard her say
Edited on Mon Jul-16-07 02:30 PM by impeachdubya
"what do you expect me to do?" before she was kicked off the plane, I think it's reasonable to assume that was one of the FIRST things she tried to do.. so then what?

Assuming you've got experience with kids, you probably know that at 19 months old, oftentimes they're not really able to follow directions. That doesn't mean they're "undisciplined", any more than a baby that won't stop crying is "undisciplined".

Yeah, I don't think the mom should have stuck a ball gag in the kids mouth, or drugged him because the FA clearly had a stick up her ass. I'm a "bad parent". :eyes:

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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. Ask any pediatrician how you're supposed to "discipline"
a 19 month old for talking.

I'm sure she wouldn't say "drug him with Benadryl."
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. and i never said anything about drugging him with benadryl,
i'm talking about people who refuse to even tell their children to just be quiet.

and i have seen parents who did it and the children behaved. not that i blame parents if the children don't behave as they are too young to understand much.

i'm mostly referring to people who do nothing and there are parents like that. not just when the children are too young but old enough to understand also.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. But that's exactly what the flight attendant ordered the mother to do.
Of course there are some inconsiderate parents (just as there are inconsiderate people among the childfree), but there is no evidence that the mother of this baby -- only a year and a half old -- is one of them.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #28
150. she did not ORDER the woman to give her child benadryl
for god's sake, get a grip.

She made an (inappropriate) informational comment that one could give one's child benadryl.

She did not ORDER the woman to drug her child. :eyes:
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #150
167. She ordered the parent to make her child "shut up."
When the parent asked if she was kidding, she told her to give the baby Benadryl.

When the parent refused to do that, she was kicked off the plane.

The flight attendant is the one who needed to get a grip.
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mcctatas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Although...
my Irish grandma used to rub whiskey on my gums when I was teething...said it knocked me right out. Maybe the flight attendant should have offered something from the mini-bar instead? Or better yet, taken a toot herself and practiced lamaze breathing!
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. I don't know about a "toot," but she could have wiped her own gums,
who would object to that?

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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #15
61. LOL LOL
Ya gotta be kidding. There isn't a 19 month old in the world that can successfully be told to "be quiet." Who would even try????
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #15
73. I have never been in an airplane that was quiet enough when airborne
to hear a babbling toddler unless you're right next to the baby anyway.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. And I bet there were plenty of other people talking as well.
Until the flight attendant started yelling and everyone sat there in shock, their mouths hanging open.
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silverojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #12
42. There's something you don't grasp, either
Maybe what you don't grasp is, when you tell a 19 month old to do something like stop talking, they don't always do it.

Bringing a child that young on board a plane is tantamount to child abuse, in the first place. Many adults have a terrible time adjusting to the air pressure; of course infants are going to cry, if their ears are hurting!

As for this child, the Benadryl thing is way over the top, I'll freely admit.

But parents need to understand that it's pretty wrong to put their kids through an 11-hour wait, a long flight, etc. And if this parent hasn't ever put one finger gently on the child's mouth and said "shh" in the past to teach her child when to be quiet...this woman needs a crash course in parenting. A 19-month-old is hardly an out-of-control teen you have to drag to boot camp, LOL!
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #42
49. It was only supposed to be a one hour flight. It wasn't the parent's fault
that they were stuck on a 11 yr. layover.

Bringing a child that age on board isn't tantamount to abuse. Depending on their age, my children all did fine with either breastfeeding or a sippy cup. Swallowing relieves the pressure in their ears just as it does with adults.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #42
64. Parents don't always have a choice!
Edited on Mon Jul-16-07 07:15 AM by tblue37
Sometimes you have to get where you have to get, and our society has not exactly provided a lot of other options, like decent ground transportation to most destinations.

I have two (now adult) kids of my own, and I ran a home daycare for 18 years, raising over 30 children total. I know a little about handling kids, and I know a little about what you can reasonably expect from kids of varying ages.

Yes, you are right, many parents won't socialize or control their kids at all. I have many articles on my Who's Minding the Children website about such parents and their holy terror kids. But it is also true that people who have no experience with kids don't know what the hell theyre talking about much of the time when they tsk-tsk at parents because a baby or small child is acting like a baby or small child.

I might also point out that these were obviously parents with their first child, and they hadn't had that one for very long. I am something of a "baby whisperer." If necessary, I probably could have found a way to get that baby to stop saying "Bye, plane," though why the child couldn't be allowed to say "Bye, plane" as much as he wanted really is beyond me. But when I had my first child, I had no experience, and I couldn't get him at age 19-months to stop excitedly saying "Bus!" all the time when he saw anything with wheels. These parents were new at the job--as I was then--and didn't have the skills I developed after handling so many babies and toddlers over so many years

I often have helped young parents whose babies or toddlers are screaming on the plane. One thing I have always found is that they are desperate to help their babies be happy, and that they are desperate to do something to prevent their babies from bothering the other passengers. I have never once found a parent who didnt care that their little one was screaming or bothering othersand in every case, they have been pathetically grateful, not t all resentful, for my help in calming their child.

If you want to read about obnoxious kids and parents, go ahead and visit my Who's Minding the Children site:
http://www.childrensneeds.homestead.com/index.html
You will find that I agree that kids need to be socialized and taught to behave, and that I have little patience with parents who wont bother to take responsibility for doing that essential job. But be reasonable. You cant push the tide back with your hand, and there are some things that you just cannot demand of babies and toddlers!

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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #64
224. I enjoyed your site very much. Thank you for posting the link.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #224
230. Thank you for the compliment!
Edited on Mon Jul-16-07 03:08 PM by tblue37
BTW, if you like my take on stuff, you can use the link at the bottom of every article to go to the homepage for the site, which has links to all nine of my other public sites. I write about teaching and education, deafness, ADD/ADHD, grammar and usage, poetry, and essay writing. I also have two sites with funny true anecdotes about animals and kids, and one site where I post all my orphan articles (those that don't fit into the topics of the other nine sites).
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #42
74. Child abuse? Oh come on
talk about hyperbole

My daughter flew from a very young age. I nursed her and she didn't have any problem with the pressure changes. But I think I read elsewhere that you have a problem with that, too.

Families sometimes have to travel, and children are in many families.

You must not have any kids if you think it's that easy to get a 19-month-old to be quiet. If my daughter had been saying, "bye-bye plane" I'd probably be happy she wasn't crying. By the time you get airborne airplanes are loud enough that you can't hear voices well enough for that to be a problem anyway.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #42
227. Then obviously you need to find a baby and child-free airline to fly.
Personally, no- I don't like putting babies and small children on a plane. It's a pain in the ass for everyone. But declaring by fiat that it is "child abuse" to even fly with them in the first place...

well, you know what? You don't understand why women NEED to breastfeed in public, either (and it's not about really wanting to give you a free flash of titty, believe it or not) ... so I'm not even gonna bother, here.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #6
26. Such a concept!!! That was always the way it was "done" back in the old days
I really don't think a kid saying ByeByePlane is the end of the world though. Back in the day, after a few ByeByePlanes, the average parent would say "That's enough, now why don't you color in your book/read your story, or listen to your nursery rhymes dear..." and the kid would settle in.

I think the flight attendant was having a tough time, and consequently behaved badly. I don't know what the work situation is on her airline, but if it mirrors some of the others, they're flying with FAA minimum crews and wages that were cut after Nahn Wun Wun and are not keeping place with inflation. It's no EXCUSE, but it is a small factor in mitigation.

I come from an ancient generation with different methods, I guess. I can't remember ever not knowing how to behave. We were a large crowd of kids, and knew damned well we wouldn't get that nice outing to the restaurant, or the trip for ice cream, or what have you, if we acted up. So we didn't "act up." I don't really remember getting any huge etiquette lessons either. I must have though, or maybe it was the example of my elder siblings that taught me how to behave.

I don't think it's a totally lost art, though. I've encountered many kids who actually do have good manners.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. She's more of a baby, than a "kid", at the age of 19 months.
Coloring books and similar activities aren't much of a distraction. And babies act like babies -- they aren't born knowing how to behave, and they haven't gotten all that far by the age of one and a half. (You can't remember not knowing how to behave but I also bet you can't remember being under 2.)

You're right -- the flight attendant behaved badly. She had no business ordering the parent to drug the child with Benadryl.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:28 AM
Response to Original message
7. The childfree were once children themselves, and society put up with them.
It's as simple as that.

Also, children today will be paying social security that will benefit the older generations, whether or not they have their own children.
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. I guess the "childfree" just feel like their old-age entitlements are disconnected from crying kids?
Daft.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #11
21. to an extent they are
Unlike the 'greatest' generation which is getting back way more than it paid in, plus interest, my g-g-generation has been paying in way more than it is gonna get back. Bush and Republicans are right when they say we are getting a crappy return on our investment, because much of our investment is being doled out to the older generations. Not, mind you, that his 'solution' isn't a load of crap.

As for society tolerating me when I was a kid, I remember that differently too. I remember being mostly scared as a kid, because bigger kids or adults would sometimes beat on you for no reason. Not so much adults, but if you did give them a reason, they would whack ya. Plus, I think there was not nearly as much eating out or commercial travel in our day.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #21
52. SS is not an "investment"
It's insurance. what kind of "return" do you get on your insurance policies?
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #21
115. "a crappy return" from SS? my parents made huge sacrifices for us
and it does not bother me in the slightest to think that money that I am now paying in is *gasp* benefiting them--maybe not "them" directly as my mother died more than 20 years ago and my father is comfortable, though not wealthy or anything, with savings and investments in addition to a little SS, but the elderly "them" in general.

it's a "crappy return" only if you cold-heartedly measure every "return" in life in terms of dollars and cents--but contributing to the public good, helping to ensure that the elderly, who gave when they could in terms of care and creativity, has its own intangible "return." Or perhaps you would rather that those elderly who, for whatever reason--bad luck late in life, imprudent investing, lack of education that prevented a good career--ended up precariously, with nothing or close to it, got a space under a bridge in a refrigerator box? Only republicans and "libertarians"--i.e., those without a concept of "the public good" would NOT want to contribute to the care of those unable to care for themselves.

in addition, I will soon be collecting SS, and it will be fun to watch the selfish youngsters bitch about it. too bad, sonny! I paid my dues, one hand washes the other, and like that.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #21
159. Yeah, those were the days, weren't they?
Never knew when you might get whacked for no reason. Kids today are so spoiled.

:sarcasm:
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nini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #11
149. it's not crying kids.... it's bratty kids
big difference.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #7
88. So WHAT that we were once children? Our parents taught us how to
behave in public.

Just because we were all children once does not mean that we must just put up with and suffer silently the bad behavior of today's children.

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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #88
145. KEY phrase "Our parents
taught us how"...

You don't for one minute expect anyone to believe you never pissed off people in public when you were a kid do you?

How does anyone "learn" anything Scout????

By DOING it-

People who advocate "child-free zones" are advocating creating a society of selfish narcissists.

WE live on this planet with many other "human" beings ~ Not to mention life of various forms.
While humans may believe 'we' are the be all and end all - we aren't.

Perhaps not enough children have learned the concepts of sharing, tolerance, compassion, empathy, and "community".

That might explain the attitudes that lie behind some of the ageism and prejudice against people based on their youth, or excessive age.

Either way it sucks.

Children have as much "right" to be here as you do- I completely disagree with your reply- Yet, that doesn't make "me" any better than you.

Kids don't get to chose their parents- give them a break already.
What an incredibly selfish society we have created for ourselves!
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #145
153. nice rant you went off on there, didn't have much of anything to do with
anything i've ever said, but hey,...
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #153
161. sorry you couldn't
get what i was saying-

:shrug:

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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #88
170. Uh-huh. And I bet you were a wonderfully behaved 19 month old
and you can remember that perfectly, right?

I bet your parents have some stories they could tell. You should ask them.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #88
225. And saying "Bye Bye Plane" repeatedly is "bad behavior"?
People need to get a fucking grip.
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fidgeting wildly Donating Member (335 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #7
91. So what?
I should just keep my mouth shut when a couple of daft pricks bring a screaming infant to an R-rated movie, because the brat might pay into social security someday? Talk about entitlement!

I pay into social security also, and I sure as hell don't go around demanding that other people tolerate whatever rude behavior I choose to visit upon them.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
139. you said it!
very well Pnwmom!

:hi:
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RC Quake Donating Member (202 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
213. Same as the child free pay many taxes for schools
and education where they will never have any children attending. It cuts both ways.
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mcctatas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:30 AM
Response to Original message
8. Aside from the blinding envy I occasionally feel when watching
a couple without kids enjoy a nice quiet meal? I am one of those parents who has been lucky enough to have well behaved kids (at least in public), and on the odd occasion when they do act up, I hustle their asses out of wherever we are, (admittedly hard to do on a plane)...but a few things come to mind about what we have to put up with from the childless

1. Swearing, loud and repeatedly (especially at outdoor events such as fairs etc.)
2. Cigarettes held right at a child's eye level (again mostly outdoors)
3. (and this is the worst) condescension, dirty looks, and general dickishness

It is sometimes unavoidable that the childless must put up with other people's kids, but sometimes, as a decent person should, they just have to realize that we are doing the best we can.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Great reply. There are ill behaved people who are childless,
just as there are parents who are inconsiderate of others.

Nothing about having children or not having children determines how considerate you are.
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Sen. Walter Sobchak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #8
35. I read about this one on DU
A group of women in a resturant were complaining about a child that was according to the poster was being well behaved, while they were demonstrating a sex act on bread sticks.
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Kiouni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #8
39. the swearing gets to me too.
I also hate to see the families that drag their kids into the smoking section of a restaurant with them. Which is the main reason why I voted to ban smoking in restaurants in my state even though I smoked at the time.
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:38 AM
Response to Original message
14. And when the children of the "child-burdened" decide to use civil disobedience
to stop paying into a Social Security system that will unlikely be part of THEIR retirement, the "childfree" will just roll over and say "oh well, that's our lot in life"?

Civil disobedience is a powerful thing when enough people band together. I can think of a situation in Washington state where people started running to toll booths at a bridge that was supposed to have paid for itself by the 70's, but was still charging tolls in the late 80's. So MANY people ran the tolls, that the state finally removed them.

Let that happen to Social Security and then ask the same question.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #14
27. Well, it's an interesting idea, but how are they gonna do that? It's withheld from their pay,
before they ever see that paycheck. So how are they going to "band together" and disobey?

Unless they all move to a commune and live off a barter society, eschewing cities and jobs and businesses and the consumer society they really do seem to love, your example isn't really the same as your tollbooth model.
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #27
218. Good Point. Bad Model. But what if the business owners
stopped deducting it from employee pay? In very large numbers?

I could live in a commune, methinks.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #218
229. They wouldn't cut off their noses to spite their faces.
The government needs money to keep the engines going. If they started screwing with the government in that fashion, those great business and corporate tax breaks that they enjoy would not only disappear, but their tax burden would become so damned onerous that they'd move offshore or fold their tent and quit.

Business and the government have a delightfully symbiotic relationship. They'll deduct, and gladly, too. Beats making THEM have to provide a viable pension plan to attract a quality work force!!!
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:49 AM
Response to Original message
17. It depends on what it is and for how long.
Edited on Mon Jul-16-07 02:50 AM by no_hypocrisy
Our parents were strong proponents of both letting us be children --up to a point -- and introducing us to "how to behave". Mom stressed "good manners", public behavior, and general civility from the beginning. Sometimes it was oppressive. On my 13th birthday (to my dismay at the time), they gave me Tiffany's Table Manners for Teenagers. It is has become invaluable to me now.

How your parents let you behave in a public setting will have repercussions in your future one way or the other.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:50 AM
Response to Original message
19. Reply
I have no children, but I think that that flight attendant was way out of bounds.

The problem is not having to put up with kids, it travelers having to put up with increasingly rude and unprofessional flight attendants.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:50 AM
Response to Original message
20. Swear in front of the kids, heavy petting, drunk drivers plow into the car,
Edited on Mon Jul-16-07 03:08 AM by John Q. Citizen
act worse than the kids and set a bad example, behave totally self centered because you think it's your right, send our kids to war, expect our kids to pay for your deficits, never grow up and take responsiblity in life for anyone other than your own selfish ass self, your dogs poop on our kids play grounds, chase our kids on thier bikes, you fly to 3rd world countries for sex tours and come back and infect others who eventually infect our kids. You alway think you have a clue about raising kids, disipline, care and feeding, and you always want to share that stuff with us when you are entirely clueless.

You know, stuff like that.

Oh yeah, and you show a marked lack of compassion for others because you never learned how to love and nurture someone dependant on you.

Besides those things, no problem.
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assclown_bush Donating Member (573 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #20
53. Each and every one of your complaints applies to adults WITH children too....
breeding and spawning do not endow ANYONE with nobility and/or compassion.

bUsh/Chaney are breeders too.

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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #53
171. Neither does being childless, obviously. n/t
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #53
183. Actually, I'm kidding. I thought the question was stupid, the ongoing debate
is stupid and so I just made a stupid reply. And guess what kind of posts I got back in return? (well not you, of course :) )

Who cares if someone has kids or not? There are idiots who have kids and idiots who don't. There are wonderful people who have kids, and wonderful people who don't.

I'm surprised anybody even places it into an "us vs them" dichotomy. I'm surprised that anybody expects that others in this world are going to live up to our personal expectations - or not.

My 8 year old hates mosquitos. He says, "Dad I wish there weren't any mosquitos. Why does there have to be mosquitos?"
I tell him, "Hey, it's the circle of life. We eat trout, trout eat mosquitos, and mosquitos eat us."

The world is just what it is. Live it, or live with it!

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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #20
80. "a marked lack of compassion for others because you never learned how to love and nurture"
it took having kids for you to learn that? they need to be your flesh and blood to love and nurture?

how sad, but speak for yourself.
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assclown_bush Donating Member (573 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #80
122. Great post, bettyellen
:applause:
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bperci108 Donating Member (969 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #80
137. I think his point was....
...that children help develop that more in some folks. (Especially us guys...)

I know when I was a single young twenty-something, I had little patience for shrieking kids, but now that I have walked in those shoes with my own young kids (now almost grown) I have MUCH more tolerance than I did back then.

But YMMV...that's just my experience. :hi:
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #137
197. Actually, I was just messing around with folks who somehow see a
dividing line or a dichotemy between people who are responsible for raising children and people who aren't.

I also think taking care of a pet teaches nurturing and compassion. And as we all know there wonderful pet owners and big jerk pet owners.

I always liked kids and am glad I have kids. I like humans, for the most part, younger and older. Some people don't like kids. It's their life and who am I to tell them they should? public spaces are just that. If one doesn't enjoy what one expeiences in public spaces (you know, other people) then oh well.

Or if kids make them nervous there are always bars where you know that everyone is over 21. Or some people decide to be hermits. To each there own. I'm slightly allergic to cats.

See post #194 for my generic reply
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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #80
155. yeah, really. Setting up hospice in your home for an inlaw wouldn't count?
Edited on Mon Jul-16-07 11:06 AM by Iris
Jesus Christ. There. I swore. I'm just a heathen childess hussy.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #155
203. Now now, the kids will get over it. Don't be too hard on your self
Life is tough enough as it is.


Please see my generic reply #186
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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #203
208. 186 is good. I don't even know why I got in this discussion
It's really ridiculous. The very idea that the only way you can be a compassionate, caring human being is by having a child is so silly.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #80
190. Please see #186 above. It's a generic reply, except for where in my first
Edited on Mon Jul-16-07 12:33 PM by John Q. Citizen
post (not #186) did I specify that the children I'm talking about aren't adopted? Or kidnapped for that matter? :)

I'm sad that you are sad. Don't be sad. Be happy. There, now I'm happy.


opps-edited for wrong generic reply #

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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #20
173. "send our kids to war"
That's funny, I'm pretty sure the guy who did that HAS kids. Didn't your parents ever teach you it's wrong to lie?
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #173
198. How do you know they are his? Please see my generic reply #186 and I'm
Edited on Mon Jul-16-07 12:34 PM by John Q. Citizen
glad you caught the humor in my post.

Yes, I was taught not to lie, but I sometimes do any way. Go figure.


-oops-edited for right generic reply #
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #198
219. How do I know they are this?
How do I know the person currently responsible for sending our children to war is a parent? Because Shrub, the person currently responsible for sending our children to war, has 2 daughters. Do you have reason to doubt this?

But why bother in facts when you can have "generic" replies?
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #219
221. Have you seen the DNA tests? Do you believe anything bush says?
:)

Condi doesn't have kids- I think it must be all her fault.

Another thing I forgot to mention in my original post on this weird bizarre subject. People without children have no sense of humor, irony, or satire. And they are really paranoid that those with children are out to get 'em.
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #20
186. Wow, I've seen arrogant nincompoopery before, but that takes the cake.
If you had to wait until you had children to learn compassion for others, then what a sad fucking life.

I learned it as a child.

And let's see - the ones sending kids to war are parents; the ones expecting kids to pay the deficits are parents; dogs of people with children also poop in playgrounds, chase kids, fly for sex tours, and come back and infect our kids...

I'd say that the childless are the ones LEAST likely to do the above. Especially childless Democrats.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #186
201. I'm glad things are going well for you. Keep up the good work! Please see my
Edited on Mon Jul-16-07 12:31 PM by John Q. Citizen
generic reply #186!

oops edited for right reply number
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #201
222. Very good! As humor and sarcasm, your response was perfect!
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glowing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 03:11 AM
Response to Original message
29. Well, those children will someday be working and paying into the system.
A little tolerance would be much appreciated... At the same time, parents must remember they are the adults....

Children can be bullies, my toddler will try to get away with as much as I only let him. But he is a handful... No one on my side of the family has children that are even remotely as wild as he can get, but on my husbands side, a few cousins together will be enough to drive you mad. I think it depends a lot on the child.... But at the end of the day a toddler is a toddler... they have two feet, know how to run, and love to hear themselves talk (sounds like Bush)--- No wonder there is no tolerance for them.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 03:18 AM
Response to Original message
32. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 03:19 AM
Response to Original message
33. There is a difference
That story of the toddler in the plane was ridiculous. The child was not bothering anyone and, anyway, the mother did not have a choice. They were flying from point A to point B.

It would be different if the child was screaming or throwing temper tantrum and the mother was just ignoring him.

But restaurants and movie theatres are different. The parents do not have to go out with the child who screams, or moves around bothering others who paid a baby sitter so they can enjoy adult outing.
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Sen. Walter Sobchak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 03:31 AM
Response to Original message
34. I don't have children - but I think the "childfree" types are just assholes
Heaven forbid you might actually have to come in contact with lesser members of the human race. I really like kids, I personally found sitting next to a little kid on the plane who was super excited to be going to Disneyland with his mom quite pleasant. I was that kid!

Interestingly enough on that flight, there was a flight attendent badgering the mother for almost the entire flight, despite the kid doing nothing.

Can you imagine how aghast I was that this CHILD actually spoke to me? How dare that child not recognize that I am much too important to bother with questions like "do you live at Disneyland?"

That mother, pardon me "breeder" should be taken out and beaten for dare allowing her hell spawn to take me away from my iPod and Skymall!

If you don't want contact with the young hell spawn of the world, why don't you move to "A Community for Mature Adults"

Most of the behavior I see the childfree complain about is pretty harmless,
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #34
43. How was the flight attendant badgering the mother?
Good for you being able to enjoy the child. When I travel alone, I often end up sitting beside an unaccompanied minor (for some reason). I think it's fun, actually. Makes the time go a lot faster.
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Sen. Walter Sobchak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #43
48. I posted the whole story to another thread,
But here it is again:

Flying between DEN and SNA I sat next to a woman and her young son, the kid was being as well behaved as one might expect an excited toddler to be. He was going to Disneyland with his mom who said she was an army nurse just home from Germany and had missed his birthday that year. The kid spent most of the flight silently flipping through the pictures in a book about Disneyland. But for whatever reason one of the flight attendants was basically harassing the woman the entire flight and this guy must have asked me half a dozen times if the child was disturbing me and if I wanted to be moved, which he absolutely was not.

What did the woman do to upset the guy so much?

She took her son to the bathroom while they were serving drinks, but after the cart had passed our row. This visit to the bathroom in no way obstructed the flight attendants serving the drinks. The clown kept badgering the woman asking her if she understood the consequences of "obstructing the flight crew" eventually another passenger who showed his ID and identified himself as a pilot for the airline and told the guy to drop it or he would make a report to some woman he named directly.

Frankly, all I saw was a bad stereotype with an attitude problem who thought he was "kicking breeder ass" by tormenting this woman and her kid.

And for all people complain about flying with kids, most of the bad behavior I see on planes is by adults who think their two flights a year means they are entitled to the presidential treatment.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #48
163. I cheered at the part where the incognito pilot chewed the FA out.
Too bad there wasn't pilot-witness to step in to avert the recent fiasco.
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assclown_bush Donating Member (573 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #34
55. bUsh/Cheney have children. I guess THEY are NOT *ssholes?
at least according to your "logic".
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Sen. Walter Sobchak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #55
70. "childfree" in quotes refers to those who hate children and those who "breed" them
As though they are vermin.
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assclown_bush Donating Member (573 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #70
75. There are plenty of child haters among those who choose to breed...
just as there are misogynists who marry.
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assclown_bush Donating Member (573 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #70
78. Funny...YOU didn't put your disclaimer in your original post.
:shrug:
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Sen. Walter Sobchak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #78
90. go back to school and learn the significance of quotation marks
Edited on Mon Jul-16-07 08:58 AM by policypunk
"childfree" in quotation marks is not the same as child free with a space on their own, that describes a person such as myself who does not have children. I don't hate children - I just happen to be unmarried.

"childfree" is a term those who hate children have chosen to identify themselves with. An author will often put a term like that in quotation marks if its popular usage is gramatically incorrect or if they wish to illustrate disagreement with the term.
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assclown_bush Donating Member (573 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #90
102. ""childfree"(sic) is a term those who hate children have chosen to identify themselves with."???
What is your source for such an allegation?

I would suggest it is YOU who needs to go back to school and take a few simple courses in grammar (with a re~fresher in spelling). Quotation marks are also "popular" if you wish to QUOTE someone.

I apologize if I am guilty of being "gramatically(sic) incorrect".

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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 03:38 AM
Response to Original message
36. Assholes that should know better
I've never met a chronological child who's personality immediately said "My self-affirmed superiority qualifies my global disdain for those I may address in derogatory terms meant for livestock."

But, you post does.
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mcctatas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. You said it much better than I did...
well put! :)
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assclown_bush Donating Member (573 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #36
59. bUsh/Chaney are BOTH parents. Many *ssholes are of the breeding variety.
Whatever happened to the term "population explosion"?
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Kiouni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 04:09 AM
Response to Original message
38. This is too funny,
I love these arguments the strung out parents trying to justify why their kids have to knock down the pringles can display in the grocery store and the "childfree" yuppies complaining about how they can't go swimming or shopping without being swarmed on.
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silverojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 04:40 AM
Response to Original message
40. We childfree people are stomped on continually by parents/kids
I'm riding around grocery stores in an electric cart because of my disability...a kid is spinning around like a total retard with a hard object in his hand, moving dangerously closer to my head with each rotation. When he nearly hits me, and a let out a little scream and duck, the parent chides ME for startling her kid. Gee, I'm sorry that she was offended by the scream resulting from the pain in my back (caused by ducking away from HER child).

My mother, who has terrible back problems, struggles to escape from pushy parents shoving their kids around in those SUV sized shopping carts with a toy car in front of them. I've had a run-in of that nature, myself; I was standing in line at the checkout, when a nasty woman deliberately plowed my leg with one of those contraptions, because she thought I was taking too long checking out. (That's why I have to ride the mart carts now, because she injured my foot and ankle so badly.)

If you try to complain about these breeders recklessly injuring other people, other breeders act as if you're the villain. Whatever happened to being kind and considerate toward the elderly and disabled? Oh, that's right...it's the Bush society now. Fambly valyoos and all.

No, I don't blame the kids, nor do I dislike them. I dislike the parents for not taking care of their children and teaching them how to behave in public places. I continually see lazy parents letting their kids run wild, not only hurting other people, but potentially hurting themselves, as well. If I'd ever tried to act up in a grocery store, my mom would have nipped it in the bud, and apologized to anyone around her. (And no, she never disciplined me with spanking. I learned by her example, how to take care of my little cousins without shouting or hitting.)

Children should be taught not to scream and act like animals when the family is out in public. Society should not have to put up with bad behavior, simply because the child's parents are too lazy to be good parents, and inconsiderate enough to believe that strangers should have to tolerate the results of bad parenting.

Teaching your child to function in society is what parenting is all about. Whining at people who point out bad parenting doesn't make you a better parent--it prevents you from learning from your own mistakes. It also makes people unfairly dislike your child...when the bad behavior isn't the child's fault at all.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #40
45. I couldn't get past the slur against the mentally disabled in your first
sentence.

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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #45
98. That did it for me, too.
That term is extremely offensive, and the fact that some think it's appropriate is a sad statement. MKJ
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #45
140. Me, neither. That was disgusting.
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youthere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #45
156. Me either...
Edited on Mon Jul-16-07 11:11 AM by youthere
3rd time since I've joined DU I'll be putting that ignore feature to use. Join me?

Edit...Just did a little search on that poster..and the results were NOT surprising.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #45
211. Shall I fetch the smelling salts?
:eyes:
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Bunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #40
126. So, you're disabled. Do you realize that there is a large segment of society
that wishes you would just stay home? They don't want to see people like you out in public. And yet you have the nerve to complain about children and "retards"? Your disabilities are not just physical.
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firefox_fan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #40
127. Well said...
I had a similar experience in a restaurant, recently. It was a Brazilian restaurant, and I was having a nice lunch with a friend. Nice until this kid from the nearby table starts screaming and running around our table. And he kept going until my friend displays a simple "shhhh" sign to the kid. At which point, the mother from the other table starts yelling at us for doing that, yelling that she is the mother and that if we have a problem we should talk to her, not make signs at her kid! And then she went on on a tirade about how it's all about prejudice against Latinos. Talk about nuts.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #127
157. Some cultures do have more tolerance for kids' rowdiness than ours.
Many latin cultures among them.
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firefox_fan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #157
162. I suppose. BUT, they are in the US...
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #162
184. Yes, they are in the U.S., which is a patchwork quilt of many cultures,
their's among them.
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youthere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #40
160. Why is your profile disabled?
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #40
180. "little retard"...
You just answered your own OP question.

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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #40
202. Like a little "retard"?
Wow. Just wow.
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nosmokes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 05:25 AM
Response to Original message
44. Ya' know, we're all invested in the kids and society. Breeders and the child
free alike all have a stake in the welfare of the kids and their parents.It just gets a lot more immediate when they get locked into a pressurised aluminum tube a fewhundred thousand feet up in the air with you or they're seated next to you when you're out for a special occasion dinner and the sugar rush from the third 12oz glass of colored and carbonated HFCS hits the 5 yo twins. and the parents are playing passive/aggressive w/ each other as to which one's turn it is to take care of the screaming little ankle biters. But we hafta remember, at those sstressful times especially, that we're all human and we're all part of this one big rock here and that raising cchildren is a hard and thankless and often lonely job that can overwhelm folks sometimes. And maybe we just need to offer to lend a hand whichever seems most appropriate, and always with a smile, of course. ;)
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poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 05:30 AM
Response to Original message
46. I have no problems with the "childless", but here's a bit of a story if anyone cares:
I took my 4yo son to Disneyland a few years ago. At one point, just for a few seconds, I seriously thought I had lost him. I have never felt such absolute terror in my life. It was the worst feeling that I have ever experienced. I immediately went over to a booth and bought a "kiddy leash"(After swearing them off a few moments earlier.). It was about 6 feet and went around his wrist. At first he didn't care for it and neither did I. However when we both realized that it made our lives easier, we had a great day. He didn't have to wear it the whole time, just in dense crowds when I couldn't watch him every second.

Now, the most interesting thing was the reactions from people. Those without kids were immediately in evidence with clearly audible contempt, sympathy for the kid, and comments such as: "I would NEVER!!!"... Right then I started noticing comments and looks from the parents in the crowd. They said things like: "That's great. Where can I get one?", and "Boy, I wish they had those in my day...".
As an ex-kid, I would go back in time and clamp the thing on my wrist myself if I could save my loving parents one moment of the panic and upset that comes from losing a child even for a few seconds.

Just an illustration of your relative issue.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 05:39 AM
Response to Reply #46
50. Good story. I think you've pinpointed the issue behind the controversy here.
An inability to empathize due to lack of experience.
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #46
58. Exactly! I bought one of those for my daughter for shopping trips and whatnot --
it was a little teddy bear backpack and the tail was a long "leash" - she loved it and it made life a lot easier for me, her, AND everyone around us.
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Withywindle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #46
233. See, I think that's great!
I'm a childless person who wishes ALL parents would do that. :D

Seriously. Not a fan of loud free-range children for sure--but one of the things that always freaks me out is seeing such children running around a grocery store or what have you with no parent in sight. Don't parents realize that letting your kid out of your sight in a place like that is not only inconsiderate to shoppers and employees, but DANGEROUS?

The best was this lady once in an airport who asked me, a total fucking stranger, to watch her BABY as well as her luggage while she went to make a phone call (down a long hallway, around a corner and out of sight). Bzuh? What's the thought process here? All women are safe babysitters just because? And when I said no, she flipped out! I should've taken the kid and hid somewhere for a while just to teach her a lesson.

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poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #233
235. To be honest, I've considered that. Never done it, but I have asked strangers to watch my inanimate
things on occasion.
A baby though... that's messed up. One thing I've learned as a parent is that many, many parents are neither conscientious, nor responsible enough to deserve their children. Any employer would have fired the lazy, irresponsible, idiots after the first day for gross incompetence, negligence, etc.. They really piss off any decent and caring people. In the end though, you can only shake your head, maybe glare a little bit, and hope they don't grow up to become Repugs...
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Withywindle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #235
237. Oh yeah, inanimate objects are totally different!
I've cheerfully watched strangers' luggage while they go the bathroom or whatever, and other people have done it for me, no big deal. It's the orders-of-magnitude-greater level of responsibility involved with a baby that just not only wasn't something I wanted to do, it totally freaked me out that she asked.

(I think, in retrospect, her total lack of protective maternal fear of strangers might have gotten me to subconsciously thinking that she might hand me the baby and disappear forever.)
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Sanctified Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 05:41 AM
Response to Original message
51. The only inconvenience I can think of is that someone elses child will be changing your diaper.
Other than that not much really, hope you and your diaper changer will be on good terms, I hear diaper rash is a bitch.
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #51
81. by all means have kids as a solution to your incontinence, because god forbid you
spare your kid the heartbreak of wiping your ass for you.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #81
142. awfully selfish reason for having children ... "so I'll have someone to take care of ME"
no guarantees that the precious spawn will take care of their parents when the time comes, anyway

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phylny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 06:45 AM
Response to Original message
54. When the "childfree" use words such as spawn and breeders, I as a parent
lose all respect for their childlike rants.
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #54
123. As do I
Not cute. Some folks are bad parents and some of us are good parents. Most of the BS they complain about seems to stem from a very egocentric point of view. Kids happen. So sorry if the teething child cries on an airplane and upsets you. The loudmouth drunk chick spouting the four letter words every five minutes is upsets me.

And the overpopulation BS is tired. They need to take it up with this asshole and not me and my small, well-educated family.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duggar.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #54
189. It Does Show Their Irrational Extremism And That They're Too Silly To Take Seriously, Huh.
I've read some of the remarks here that you are referencing and I can't help laughing my ass off at the irrationality involved. What sane person on earth would take someone seriously who talks in such ways? Do these types really think for a second that anyone would listen to what they have to say?

I agree with you that it speaks volumes as to their intellectual immaturity on the subject.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 06:47 AM
Response to Original message
56. I like children. What's the big deal?
I don't have any, but I enjoy them being around. Even when they're "not behaving", it's generally no problem, if any at all. It takes a lot of work for a child to become obnoxious.

For those with children, it is okay to ask your children to behave more civilly. Most kids over about 3 or 4 will comply, even if not perfectly. Public humiliation and punishment is never necessary. Out-of-control children are often either frightened, feel bad, or are neurotic in some way. In other words, it's not a normal situation. Just like with adults.

I never really "got" the cultivated aversion to children a lot of hipsters seem to have. It's in the same league as the macho men who get upset when a very campy gay person is around. You might as well take offense to people who are left-handed.

--p!
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Sen. Walter Sobchak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #56
87. I hate hipsters,
They have the same personal sense of superiority found in born again Christians with perhaps twice the capacity for being judgemental. Hipsters believe that children impose gentrification on society and reduce the number of opportunities for them to be cool and edgy. Plus not having kids they have more money to spend on being edgy and cool.

So, kids = fewer opportunities to look cool, by loitering in edgy surroundings that society deems un-child friendly. I remember their pissing and moaning when Time Square was cleaned up. Same idea as old Las Vegas, it was illicit and edgy, family friendly Las Vegas isn't ergo screw the little bastards that made them clean it up.

Although I have always questioned the judgement of hipsters, especially when half a dozen of them I work with turned the L.A. basin inside out looking for a coffee shop that had, I swear I am not making this up, coffee brewed from INDONESIAN CAT SHIT.
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 06:50 AM
Response to Original message
57. Arrogance, parenting advice, a sense of overwhelming entitlement.
I have no problem with anyone's choice to breed or not to breed, but this attitude that has been expressed here in these threads... children are here, they always have been and hopefully always will be. Get used to it.

The world shouldn't be designed to work only for those without children - most people will have them at some point in life and it's pretty ridiculous for those who do not to expect those children to be kept behind closed doors, remain silent until spoken to, and not inconvenience them in any way.

Families and children are a fact of life, quite literally, and those who choose not to have them are in the minority - however, public life has been built almost entirely around that minority.
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mdelaguna2000 Donating Member (300 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #57
154. Gracias.
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #154
166. :D
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dddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
62. intolerance.
It's not attractive, from any group. Non-parents toward parents, republicans toward democrats, christians toward non-Christians, straights toward gays, I could go on and on, but the bottom line is, I have never walked in your shoes, so I can't possibly know your journey. Shouldn't I make an effort to understand you instead of judging you?
Peace.
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JANdad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 07:19 AM
Response to Original message
66. Well let's see...
- Drunken fighting at 11:00 PM waking up my kids and scaring them
- loud rap music in the car next to me while my kids are asleep
- cursing in public
- littering (curious kids ya know)
- Trying to kill my kids with erratic driving b/c you are in a hurry
- Eliminating innocence with piss-poor attitudes (like this thread and many others)
- Not being able to play outside due to a fear of pedophiles/kidnapping

Shall I continue??????
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #66
68. Snide remarks and dirty looks in restaurants--that have crayons and coloring books
Edited on Mon Jul-16-07 08:32 AM by blondeatlast
at the hostess desks.

What's the going rate for a clue these days? :mad:
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #66
85. Are you saying that parents don't drink, fight, make noise
listen to rap loudly, curse, litter, drive erratically, eliminate innocence, and are the only ones who worry about crimes?

Do you realize how little sense your post makes?
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JANdad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #85
119. I was answering the question in the OP
"So what do families have to "put up with" from us the childfree?"

Yes many parents do these things as well...which is the point isn't it....We are all human regardless of age and we all have our problems. Why single out kids simply b/c of their age...
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mindfulNJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #66
99. I sure there are PLENTY of people
WITH children who do all of those things.

Why can't people just accept the fact that there are assholes of all kinds...ones who have kids, ones who don't, young, old, smart ,dumb, male, female, Repub, and YES even Democrats!

Assholes are assholes are assholes.

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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #99
175. Bingo!
(we have seen a few on this very thread)
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #66
212. Most kidnapping and molestation is done by parents, so don't blame us
Edited on Mon Jul-16-07 01:21 PM by JVS
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Klukie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 07:58 AM
Response to Original message
69. A lack of empathy for those of us who have them.
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durrrty libby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
71. I think people should just be nicer in general, but it looks like some just
enjoy being assholes.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
76. What do we have to put up with from you???
The STARE (parents you know what I am talking about) even if the child is perfectly behaved...

Sometimes downright hostility ... see above

Oh yeah, and little facilities and accommodations for children... the US is almost exclusively designed for older people... Why do you think sometimes that children get bored...?

I take none of this BS from people any more... it is completely unacceptable.

Just live in a place that does VALUE children and you will understand what I mean.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
77. Because they were children once, too.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
84. Not much in my experience
The friends I have who've never had kids have always been very supportive to me in my role as a mom. Also, when my kids were small if they behaved inappropriately in a public setting they were removed from it. We were always aware of how our kids' behavior effected the people around us.

I think part of the problem is many parents have unreasonable expectations of their little ones. In retail management for years I saw many mothers dragging their kids through the stores while shopping at length for themselves, including trying on lots of lots of clothes. Restaurants are another place parents really do poorly. Many times they've got really little ones who can't possibly be expected to sit quietly for any length of time in a high chair, allowing other diners to enjoy their meals. There comes a time when the little one should be taken for a walk outside (or something) to get some ya-yas out.

Needless to say there are the parents who simply refuse to control their kids in a public place, no matter who obnoxious the child(ren) may become. Such parents hold the world view that "everyone's out of step but my Johnny" and will not be convinced that they should take some steps to get the child in hand. That always saddens me since children need to be given boundries for what's acceptable and what isn't. If they aren't taught, how can they learn?

Julie
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noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
86. I'm child-free, but I like children. I draw the line at movie theaters.
When I go to a movie, I am not going to a children's movie, for the most part. I get annoyed when I am at an R rated movie and someone brings a little kid who can't shut up.

I also think that expensive restaurants are wasted on small children. Family restaurants are for that, as are fast food and Big Boy. Why bring them in to a place they are not old enough to really appreciate, and disturb the other diners?

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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #86
92. i do have a child well almost teenager and i totally agree. When Saving Private Ryan
Edited on Mon Jul-16-07 09:17 AM by chimpsrsmarter
came out on the big screen i went to see it with a friend and there were actually 2 toddlers running around and then the troops hit the beach and you know what that scene looked and sounded like. Well promptly both kids started cring and one of them was screaming, i do not blame the toddlers because who in their right mind would take a small child to see that movie?

When a movie came out that i wanted to see i would either go alone or with a friend so my husband would be home with our daughter or i would wait until it came out on video. I only have one child and maybe i was blessed but she was never a problem when we went out, and at an early age she learned when we went out to eat--napkin on your lap, please and thank you and wash your hands before you eat.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #92
97. I barely breathed during that beach scene
What sort of fucked up parent shows that to a child?
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #86
96. I am with you on that
I am a parent of 3, aged 13-14-and 16. I still don't take them to R movies. I let them choose and they always want to see something like harry potter or transformers or some other kids movie. I save adult movies for times when I am not with my children and actually get to enjoy it. Outings should be enjoyable to all, if you force your child into situations where they are bored out of their minds it doesn't do anyone any good.

And restraurants? My kids still pick the ones with crayons and still play the games on the silly paper mats.

When it comes to entertainment: Let kids be kids. Do adult things when you have time away.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #86
135. I agree about movies
When my kids were that young, we didn't take them to movies. When I see small kids at adult movies, I want to go up to the parent and introduce them to the concept of BABYSITTER.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
93. Intolerance, short-fuses and lack of empathy and understanding
Intolerance, short-fuses, and lack of empathy and understanding.

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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
94. Ignorance of being a parent.
Not your fault of course.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #94
144. I've got PLENTY of child-rearing experience...
that is precisely why I am now childfree.

One does not need to have reproduced oneself to know what it is to parent.
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mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
101. OUr kids providing THEM elder care when they get older?
my kids are grown out and out of the house now, but I remember hearing other childfree people, especially elders, complaining about school taxes ad other resources going to kids, etc., etc. Then these childfree elders would go to visit their YOUNG doctor, get cared for by their YOUNG nurse, get their grass mown by the teenager down the street -- all of whom were raised by OTHER people. The childfree get to have the benefits of the next generation's services, so they shouldn't complain that SOMEONE ELSE went to the trouble of raising their future doctors.

Just like elders get subsidized and supported by the young, so should the young be subsidized and supported by the old.
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #101
104. that is a pet peeve of mine...
there are even folks who have raised children but once their kids are raised...they don't think that they should have to pay school taxes anymore..

I have asked some of them point blank..."that's okay..I will pay more in school taxex if it is okay if I stop paying your portion of social security"...that shuts them up pretty quick.

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mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #104
106. Childfree people who don't want to pay school taxes
should be forced to pay a "carefree" premium in taxes because they aren't working to raise the next generation of workers.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #104
117. how are you paying "their portion of social security"???
child-free people still pay into social security, and your benefits are based on the amount you pay into the system.
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #117
138. but it is the "collective" group of us that make it possible
your payments to FICA now...pay for someone who is getting benefits now...they aren't stored away for you later...

So when I collect I will be getting monies from the young folks who are working...
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #101
129. .
:thumbsup:

This is my biggest peeve about people who complain about kids in any way, shape or form. MY three kids and their generation will be the ones filling your prescription, making your diagnosis and changing your crappy diaper when you sit drooling in the corner at the nursing home.

Everyone has the right to make the choices they wish in life, but boy, some of these posts about kids are ugly and just flat out stupid.
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #129
134. And they are paid to do that
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #134
141. Your point?
:eyes:

If you think that a CNA in a nursing home does it for the money, there's no hope for you.
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
103. What an ugly post
It is laughable that someone would think that just because someone is "childfree" they are some how perfect and are incapable of being a pain in the ass...what utter bullshit...


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assclown_bush Donating Member (573 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #103
108. I find your profanity "ugly". Not the OP. n/t
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #108
110. now I am sorry that I was not more profane....
:eyes:

The constant stoking of the "anti-child" fire is nauseating and it is ugly.
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assclown_bush Donating Member (573 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #110
114. Don't worry you got your "profane" point accross very clearly...
we don't need more profanity in the world. I get your "ugly" picture.
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Bunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #114
131. Oh cry me a fucking river.
:eyes:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #131
146. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
firefox_fan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #103
121. Considerate individuals are not a pain.
Whether they have kids or not. They will make sure their kids is not a pain in public.
On the other hand, inconsiderate asshole won't give a damn if their kids screams all the time and runs around the tables disturbing others. And they won't give a damn if their own loud talking will disturb others. In a sense, they want to disturb others to show how great they are.
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Bunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #103
132. Agreed!
:thumbsup:
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huskerlaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
105. Their incessant bitching about children.
And before you jump all over me, I'm childfree as well, but I find posts like this to be ridiculous. They're CHILDREN. And the vast majority of them are delightful little people.
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OnionPatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
107. I was childfree for 41 years
So I think I can qualify as having been on both sides of this thing. I had my first (and only) child at the age of 41 and before that, I was not crazy about other people's kids. I was among those who sneered at every childish noise or disruption and tossed dirty looks at the parents. But since I've had my daughter, I just look on them with sympathy because I know someone else in the room is sure to be shooting them daggers.

Children are children and yes, good parents can get them to behave most of the time, but there is the other 10-20% of the time when they just decide to do what they want. All attempts to stop them will be useless or will escalate the meltdown. It doesn't make them bad kids and it doesn't make the parents bad parents. What I learned is that it's easy, sooo very easy to make judgments on parents when you've never had a child.

You childless people are quiet and of course we don't usually get interrupted at dinner by you. But the next time a child is getting a little roudy, remember that you were a child, too and imagine your mother on the receiving end of those dirty looks. That's probably the closest you'll be able to come to true empathy for this situation. Too bad.
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TheFriendlyAnarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
109. Holier-than-thou attitudes?
Edited on Mon Jul-16-07 09:36 AM by TheFriendlyAnarchist
:hide: :P
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assclown_bush Donating Member (573 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #109
111. I forgot that only the "child~free" can be "holier~than~thou".
go figure. :shrug:
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TheFriendlyAnarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #111
168. Duh, that's like, the FIRST rule! Didn't you go to church?!
;)
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
113. Divinity, it would seem. nt
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firefox_fan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
118. I doubt "talking" was the problem
The problem probably was non-stop screaming and possibly running around. Many people are very sensitive to noise, they should not put up with someone else's inability to teach and discipline their kids.
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motocicleta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
120. Beyond irritating bs like this?
Since you asked, I will say that the childfree (by which I mean the smug, obnoxious juveniles who call themselves childfree, not the adults who don't have children) do seem to have a tendency towards completely misplaced self-righteousness. There also is often an ugly emphasis on image - by which I mean the 'childfree' are often the type of fussy, effete urbanites who spend way too much time and money trying to have their hair and clothes look nice. Inevitably, spending so much time on looks makes them look fussy, effete, and vain - but not pleasant to look at or experience.
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
124. How many of our stupid laws are "protect the children" laws?
If it's because of your kids I can't walk down the street with a beer, I reserve my right to bitch about your kids.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #124
169. not true at all-
you can't walk down your street with a beer, because society doesn't like public intoxication.

Who wrote the laws saying you couldn't 'drink' until you were 21? Not children- and the laws aren't there to "protect children" they are there to protect HUMANS- from the foolish actions of other humans.

The laws that FORCE children to wear seatbelts, helmets on motorcycles, not smoke, not play bingo (yeah, believe it or not, you can't even enter a bingo hall if you are under age in many states) are supposedly put there to make sure children are forced to adopt actions which our society have deemed "life-saving" or "healthy" or 'right'.

You aren't being 'punished' by the children in this world when you aren't 'allowed' to "walk down the street with a beer"-
Children don't care what you are drinking-

:shrug:???

maybe the word "children' applies to any human who is alive?
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #169
172. Whatev'
I'm just sick of legislation being shoved down my throat to protect someone else's kid. Mostly the War on Drugs. That's always been "about the children," hasn't it?
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #172
191. i share your frustration with
excessive/oppressive legislation- But i challenge you to really question the motivation behind the laws. Are the "children" really the ...'targets'??... genuine reason for the laws?..... or is it really that same old ugly desire to control and manipulate others to behave in ways that "we" want to.

Laws that "protect" children are usually ones that deny them the freedom to do things until they achieve a kind of 'randomly' chosen age. The laws you cite are ones that deny this freedom to people of all ages.

peace,
blu
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #191
231. The motivation is clearly NOT to protect children,
but to build up society's most oppressive structures.

However, the political discourse is ENTIRELY about children and targeted to parents.

In California the Three Strikes Law is one of the things that makes our prison system a dysfunctiomal nightmare, and that was done entirely in response to one child's murder. The grandfather of the child, who advocated for the law, now has a non-profit devoted to repealing it because it has been so destructive to the state.

And now there are those sex-offender-residence laws creating sex-offender ghettoes, and a really stupid one that wants them all in GPS anklets.

I guess what I'm really sick of is "the children" being trotted out as an excuse for expensive new law enforcement agendas. I'm totally ready to pay for high-quality healthcare and education for other people's kids, but not for a new echelon of armed thugs and snake-oil salesmen to "protect" them.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
125. I'm curious as to where you guys bitching about kids live.
Because in my neighborhood, which is absolutely loaded with kids of all ages, the kids are polite, fun to be around and in general a tribute to their parents.

It seems that I must be the only one who lives in a neighborhood that doesn't have obnoxious kids running around screaming 24/7.
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firefox_fan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #125
128. Agreed. Kids of considerate parents are fine.
There is some personality factor, some kids are more active than others. But considerate parents make it a priority to make sure their kids are not obnoxious, especially outside the house.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #125
177. I think the kids in my neighborhood are great, too.
But I've never been disturbed by a child on a plane either, even though when I travel alone I often (about 1 time out of 3 or 4) seem to end up sitting next to a child, often travelling alone.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
130. Loud parties
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firefox_fan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #130
133. Again, inconsiderate adults are obnoxious too.
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assclown_bush Donating Member (573 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #130
148. Oh, yes...people with children NEVER have "loud parties".
No, never. :eyes:
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #148
179. Of course some parents have loud parties.
But the OP was asking about the childfree.

Some parents behave badly. Some childfree adults behave badly.
Some children usually behave well. Others often do not.

There are way too many generalizations being made around here.
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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
136. I work in the deli department at a major grocery chain...do you
really have that much time for me to tell you about annoying, ignorant, obnoxious adults, who think they are the only one on this planet? :nopity:
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Chalco Donating Member (817 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
143. Here's what irks me about my childfree friends
1. Whenever we're together they run through a litany of stories about children they've come across since we last met: movie theatre, grocery store, walking down street, department store, etc.

2. They point at children who in their opinion are making too much noise. Such as after a hurricane in Florida and the children were outside playing. The fact that the children were making noise (laughing, etc.) was completely disgusting to them.

What is the point of complaining to a couple with children about children? It always seems like they are protesting too much, that they underneath it all regret their decision not to have children because they realize that they are missing something but they don't know what it is. They have no idea that despite children being a huge hassle provide a depth to life that is not reachable without them.

Despite the fact that my own child is now a teenager and bordering on unpleasant much of the time, I love every sinue of her body and soul. I could do without my friends but not my kid.

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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #143
182. The people who think kids make too much noise OUTSIDE
are the really intolerant ones. They should go off into the woods and become hermits.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #182
199. Sometimes kids DO make too much noise outside. You don't have to not have kids
to know that. I have kids and on occassion they need to be asked to tone it down.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
158. Absolutely nothing...
no one has to "put-up" with anything.

People in general, must learn to live peace-ably with each other.

Some people are very young, and have needs which they cannot meet on their own.

Some people and have not yet grasped the ability to recognize acceptable boundries for their behaviour in society- those people come from all age groups despite claims to the contrary.

Some people never fully learn what living in community (peacefully) is about.

Your question is flawed.

No one "has" children. Children are part of this circle of life. A vital integral part of human society. So are adults, elders, and all stages from birth to death.

Humans inconvience, disrupt, bother, irritate and annoy each other all the time.

Seeking to justify marginalizing a part of society using the prejudice of "age" or lack there-of, is not only wrong, it dooms society.

A child is no more of a nusisance than you are, or i am.

I reject the premise that "children" or those who live with 'them' are any different than anyone.

:nuke:
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
165. How about "No Children, No Future"?
Or "No Children, No Social Security"
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
178. Wow! Look How Much Fun I Miss By Not Staying Up All Night!
:popcorn:
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
181. Nothing. Unless the sound of no children crying is a bother.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
187. a question:
Have you always claimed the right to not be exposed, in public, to things that annoy you, or did that just come on with the "bye bye plane" thing?
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #187
236. No one wishes to be annoyed

You think there are people who want to be annoyed?
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
188. The airline story is not about being a parent or child-free.
Edited on Mon Jul-16-07 11:50 AM by Nikki Stone1
It's about airline safety and an uncooperative passenger. It just so happens the passenger was a mother with her child. But, if I refused to comply with a flight attendant, I might be be brought back, too.

It annoys me that this whole story boils down to "Shut your kids up!"-- "You hate kids!" for some DUers. I think there is more to the story. I can't imagine a pilot turning back a plane just for a babbling kid. There must have been a fairly significant altercation.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #188
192. The flight attendant LIED to the pilot, that's why the plane was
turned back. Flat out lied that the passenger had threatened her, which, according to the eyewitnesses was a complete falsehood.

She deserves to lose her job for her petty power play.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #192
193. Link please
...
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #193
195. Are you serious? You start a flame war about siding with the
Flight Attendant and you don't know that important fact?

Wow. Just wow.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #195
196. Link, please. How do you know she LIED?
All you know is that FA said the passenger said something to her and that the surrounding passengers didn't hear it. The mother is certainly not going to admit threatening the FA under her breath.
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gatorboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
194. How great the sex is. Shut UP already!
We KNOW how great the sex use to be. How do you think we got the kids???
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marshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
204. Haing their children pay for the childless people's social security?
Edited on Mon Jul-16-07 12:38 PM by marshall
Those who produce children are also producing workers for the next generation.
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mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #204
206. Parents pay a lot (and work hard) to raise a child. They should be thanked.
Because if there were no children being raised, where would the child-free be at age seventy? What are they whining about? That someone else is doing the work?
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #204
214. SS is a ponzi scheme
The myth of perpetual growth is yet another roadblock to the implementation of the socialist welfare state that I pine for.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
210. They hate us for our drinking, cursing, lewd behavior, smoking, and our freedom
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #210
215. You forgot euchre playing.
:eyes:
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #215
216. Euchre playing with the nudie cards
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #216
217. JVS. You're such a giver.
:P
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
220. Total flamebait -- sorry, but it is
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #220
228. No shit.
Any way we can bring porn, smoking bans, or the olive garden into it?
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Withywindle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #228
234. Yes.
But you don't wanna go there. :evilgrin:
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
239. Locking
Please do not post messages that are inflammatory..
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