Here's the problem with "impeachment"....

[Postman]

Nobody cares.

Or should I say, not enough people care to make a difference.

As long as there is cheap food, a good movie, the Dow Jones skyrocketing, Democrats and Republicans doing kabuki theater, and someone else's kid getting his or her legs blown off in Iraq....

Don't get me wrong. I'm for more than impeachment. They are war criminals in my mind.

[The Cleaner]

1. I think people care. The polls are showing they care.

It's just that the Dems in congress are showing their spineless sides and refuse to do the right thing for our democracy.

[rodeodance]

3. there is no Repug willing to step up to the plate like Goldwater did with Nixon either.

[emulatorloo]

15. You are right -- so far all I see are Republicans COVERING FOR Bush

All you have to do is watch CSPAN for a few minutes to see

-- highly coordinated talking points designed to protect Bush
-- maybe some half hearted resistance to his policies vocalized, but then a good solid vote for his policies.

My dream is that finally some Senior Senator (R) wakes up and goes to the White House for a little resignation talk.

I have been writing my Senator along those lines. Here's hoping.

[Postman]

4. I "think" people care too. But not enough..

as for the Democrats? They are trying to drag this out for as long as they can as close as they can get it to November 2008.

Are they politicizing the disaster at the expense of more dead Americans and Iraqis?

You Betcha.

Disgusting.

Nancy Pelosi should just resign and go away.

[annabanana]

20. People DO care.. They just don't know how many people agree with them.

For that we can thank a complicit media.

When 100's of thousands marched against the attack on Iraq.. Why did we have to watch TRAFFIC CAMS to find out what the crowd looked like? Why are the poll numbers buried in a flurry of other, less conclusive poll numbers?

If I were the violent type, I might START with the un-indictable co-conspirators.

[Nunyabiz]

22. If "enough really cared" then there would be

10s of Millions of damn angry "patriots" stomping down the gates to the white house carrying torches, ropes and pitchforks.

We are a nation of approx 300,000,000 people of which more than 1/2 are fully aware of the crimes & lies of this administration and what it has cost the country, yet we can only manage to gather less than 500,000 at a time and that is mostly to carry a sign with a smile and singing Kum Ba Yah. These treasonous war criminals could not careless about such a demonstration of which the 100% complicit mainstream media refuses to even televise. I guarantee Bush just peeks out the window and gives that Jon Stewart chuckle "heh heh heh". They have nothing to fear and they know it which is why they are completely out of control and destroying the country. Sadly most Americans are in denial and wont wake up until the door to the mass gas chambers slam shut.

[yardwork]

2. I think that you have a good point, and that's the reason that we need to make noise.

The politicians will respond if enough people show that we DO care. It's up to us - as individuals -to tell them.

[rodeodance]

5. and here is a way to MAKE NOISE:

Forum Name General Discussion: Politics
Topic subject I just watched many on DU get passionately excited about Bill Moyers show
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3376163#3376163
3376163, I just watched many on DU get passionately excited about Bill Moyers show
Posted by rodeodance on Fri Jul-13-07 10:28 PM

on PBS tonight (see a few threads below).
John Nichols and Bruce Fein were guests-----It was all about impeachment.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/2007/07/poll_civil_liberties_and_natio_1.html


While we are excited (well, at least some of us)----lets flood her office and phones.

"impeachment is not a constitutional crisis like many believe but a Cure for a constitutional crisis" (paraphrasing from the show tonight)



AND: from http://pelosiwatch.us/content/view/163/139 /
A clip of: John Nichols - The Genius of Impeachment

Also see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdilpQkZ-e8
YouTube - John Nichols - The Genius of Impeachment

AND:
Cheney's Actions Put Impeachment on the Table
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat/?pid=213909
.........

That's an increasingly popular sentiment among Congressional Democrats, who are breaking with Pelosi to speak the "i" word.

It is an even more popular sentiment among the American people.

According to recent polling by the American Research Group, 54 percent of Americans want Cheney impeached. Among Democrats, that number rises to 76 percent. A majority of self-described independents back action to hold the vice president to account, as do a striking 17 percent of Republicans. With conservatives such as former Reagan administration lawyer Bruce Fein coming out strongly for Cheney's impeachment, the numbers of Republicans who are pulling for accountability is likely to grow.

........Conyers, who has made little secret of his belief that the president and vice president have taken actions that are in conflict with the Constitution, has yet to endorse H. Res. 333. But he is feeling pressure to do so. In May, the Detroit City Council voted to support impeachment of Bush and Cheney for misleading Congress and the public regarding the threat from Iraq, approving spying on the American people, conspiring to encourage the use of torture and acting to strip American citizens of their constitutional rights by ordering indefinite detention without access to legal counsel..........

The arguments for impeachment are varied, to be sure.

But at the heart of the growing enthusiasm for putting the process in motion is a sense that Congress can no longer neglect abuses of power by a lawless executive branch.

"The Founders intended impeachment to be used when those running the government forgot that they worked for the people, and the Founders intended impeachment to be used when those running the government acted as though they were above the law," explains Congressman McDermott, who argues that, "The vice president holds himself above the law, and it is time for the Congress to enforce the law.".............
Contact Pelosi: http://speaker.gov / (Speaker Website)

Send and email to the Speaker at: http://speaker.gov/contact /

OR send a letter or call her at:

Office of the Speaker
H-232, US Capitol
Washington, DC 20515
[phone]

AND call your Congress-critters Dem and Repug alike-

--From a previous DU post:

call your critters and let them know you're upset.

If you don't, then how will they actually know? They need some input from us!

Tut-tut

edited to add this (H/T calmari):

1 (800) 828 - 0498

1 (800) 459 - 1887

1 (800) 614 - 2803

1 (866) 340 - 9281

1 (866) 338 - 1015

1 (866) 220 - 0044

1 (877) 851 - 6437

ANY ONE of these will connect you to the Capitol Hill switchboard which, in turn, will transfer you to anyone's office in the House and/or Senate. Just for the asking!

Forum Name General Discussion
Topic subject For All Those Who Should Think Impeachment Should Be Off Of The
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1330471#1330471
1330471, For All Those Who Should Think Impeachment Should Be Off Of The
Posted by malaise on Fri Jul-13-07 08:48 PM

Table!!

Nancy Pelosi et al are you listening to Bill Moyers?
Are you listening to Bruce Fein and John Nichols

Impeachment is the cure for a Constitutional Crisis.

What a fabulous discussion.

The Constitution is more important than Bush and Cheney. Hold them to account. IMPEACH!!IMPEACH!!

This is the best program I've watched in years.

Edit headline, text.



Forum Name General Discussion
Topic subject Tough Talk On Impeachement on Bill Moyer's Journal this evening.
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1330902#1330902
1330902, Tough Talk On Impeachement on Bill Moyer's Journal this evening.
Posted by Cleita on Fri Jul-13-07 09:33 PM

This was a terrific show and all participating in this discussion agree that Nancy Pelosi needs to put impeachment back on the table or a terrible prescident in unbridled executive power is being set for future Presidents.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07132007/profile.html

Amazing that the conservative Bruce Fein was the loudest proponent of impeaching both Bush and Cheney. It was an interesting show. Catch it if you can.

Forum Name General Discussion
Topic subject Impeach Cheney--The vice president must be stopped-by Bruce Fein
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1330754#1330754
1330754, Impeach Cheney--The vice president must be stopped-by Bruce Fein
Posted by RedEarth on Fri Jul-13-07 09:15 PM

Bruce Fein was on Bill Moyers tonight

Impeach Cheney
The vice president has run utterly amok and must be stopped.
By Bruce Fein
Posted Wednesday, June 27, 2007, at 5:06 PM ET

Under Dick Cheney, the office of the vice president has been transformed from a tiny acorn into an unprecedented giant oak. In grasping and exercising presidential powers, Cheney has dulled political accountability and concocted theories for evading the law and Constitution that would have embarrassed King George III. The most recent invention we know of is the vice president's insistence that an executive order governing the handling of classified information in the executive branch does not reach his office because he also serves as president of the Senate. In other words, the vice president is a unique legislative-executive creature standing above and beyond the Constitution. The House judiciary committee should commence an impeachment inquiry. As Alexander Hamilton advised in the Federalist Papers, an impeachable offense is a political crime against the nation. Cheney's multiple crimes against the Constitution clearly qualify.

Take the vice president's preposterous theory that his office is outside the executive branch because it also exercises a legislative function. The same can be said of the president, who also exercises a legislative function in signing or vetoing bills passed by Congress. Under Cheney's bizarre reasoning, President Bush is not part of his own administration: The executive branch becomes acephalous. Today Cheney Chief of Staff David Addington refused to renounce that reasoning, instead laughably trying to diminish the importance of the legal question at issue.

The nation's first vice president, John Adams, bemoaned: "My country has in its wisdom contrived for me the most insignificant office that ever the invention of man contrived or his imagination conceived; and as I can do neither good nor evil, I must be borne away by others and meet common fate." Vice President John Nance Garner, serving under President Franklin D. Roosevelt, lamented: "The vice presidency isn't worth a pitcher of warm piss." In modern times, vice presidents have generally been confined to attending state funerals or to distributing blankets after earthquakes.

Then President George W. Bush outsourced the lion's share of his presidency to Vice President Cheney, and Mr. Cheney has made the most of it. Since 9/11, he has proclaimed that all checks and balances and individual liberties are subservient to the president's commander in chief powers in confronting international terrorism. Let's review the record of his abuses and excesses:

http://slate.com/id/2169292 /

[rodeodance]

6. btw-----nice

[EST]

7. You've got it!

Many people don't care, care but don't know much, no time, too many other, more immediately demanding issues. A "When you're up to your ass in alligators, it's difficult to remember your original objective was to drain the swamp" kind of thing.
They need information and motivation.

And, of course, that's our job-that's where we come in and we can do it.

[Toots]

8. Those people that don't care don't vote either so what difference does their opinion make?

:shrug:

[Moochy]

9. The silent but deadly majority

The warmongers choose whom to hear.. You make a good point though, about voting constituents and non-voting constituents.

[Sadie4629]

10. The kids whose legs are getting blown off

are volunteers. Unlike Vietnam, there is no draft. If your kid doesn't want to be in Iraq, then they won't volunteer. Sad, but true. The vast majority of people in this country are not affected by the Iraq War because they choose not to be. A draft would mobilize this country against the War and against Bush like nothing else. But, who wants to see a return to the draft. Not me, that's for sure.

[KharmaTrain]

11. The Process Is Misunderstood

I agree...most people would rather be sailing or watch American Idol or think about anything but all the abuses this regime has created. For some, it's just too painful to deal with...they feel powerless to do a damn thing about it and tune out rather than confront. It's similar to how a family member will shy away from an ill parent, not cause they don't care, but they just can't cope. Then there are still many who voted in this regime TWICE. Remember, many of these people voted that second time with a chip on their shoulder...and now are suffering buyer's remorse. Iraq is just one of several issues they discconect with booshie on...but many won't give us the satisfaction that we were right or that their votes were totally wrong or abused. Impeachment repudiates their votes...and while they say now they don't approve of boooosh or claim to be "independent" or whatever, they still would rather see booooshie go away rather than create a public spectacle.

A lot also has to be said about our beloved corporate media. Look at how they've avoided this topic far more than Nancy Pelosi. They didn't run impeachment polls until recently and then they're so vague its hard to draw specifics from them. A poster on DKos summed it up by saying that many Repugnican Congresscritters are from districts where the polls there say different from the national ones...the same can be applied to some "purple" (or others will say Yellow or Blue Dog Democrats) who can't address the issue the same way a Rep from a district, say San Francisco, where boooshie's popularity is in the sub-zero range and there's a far greater consensus and support to impeach.

The Clinton inquisition was such a joke that many don't want to relive that circus again. All, except the corporate media that sees ratings and money to be made...either through luring your eyeballs for hours of endless pyschobabble...or the back pocket money from the GOOP political machine to make sure their spinners, liars and enablers get to "balance" any coverage. Be damned if 70% people want us out of Iraq now...in the "fair and balanced" corporate media world, our voice is 50% or less...usually 30% as one of our spokespeople (and usually some lame DLC parrot) is pitted against a right wing kamakaze and a "moderate" wingnut.

The issues aren't based on the Constitution...but on the personal. It's not that booosh abused power or cheney's obstructed justice...the corporate media will play it as people "hating booosh"...purely viceral with little to no discussion of the reasons why. Instead of an impeachment that educates and enforces, it's turned into a popularity contest with hours of bloviating that will turn more people off than on.

I'm very much in agreement with you...and I thank my fellow DU'ers who I've had disagreements with on this topic, but we all are on the same page here. We all see the crimes this regime has committed. We all agree they must be held accountable. The difference is in tactics and process.

Cheers...

:toast:

[Marr]

12. I agree to an extent. Many of the people of this country seem to have decided

that they have no power, and that it's ok. Unless this attitude changes, everything that made this country great is dead, and we're just another banana republic.

But that's the whole point- changing the attitude. You won't do it by throwing your hands up in the air and joining the silent, apathetic crowd.

[Emit]

13. Then we have to make them care n/t

[frazzled]

14. I think the problem is this

You could get impeachment in the House (simple majority) but you could not get conviction and removal from office, which requires 2/3 vote in the Senate. Hell, with a 49 (50 when Johnson gets back) bare majority in the Senate, we can't even get a veto proof Iraq bill on the table, (which only needs 60 votes). The Republicans are not going to come over and join the Democrats in either impeaching or convicting this guy.

So I think there is little will to go through the kind of show trial that would, in effect, change absolutely nothing. We went through that for Clinton. In that case, it was wholly unjustified. An impeachment in this case would be fully justified, but it isn't going to work on technical grounds. All it would serve to do is make us all feel better that we said "nyah nyah" and besmirched Bush's (and/or Cheney's) name in public. But it would not do any of this:

(1) End the war
(2) End their secret surveillance practices
(3) Stop the depredations at Justice
(4) Prevent their imperial designs on the presidency

So, while I would love in theory to see these mo-fos impeached and removed from office, without the second of those conditions, I do not think it is wise. So I have to agree with those who would bypass an impeachment show-trial that could not result in conviction or remoal for hard-hitting investigations on multiple fronts in the various committees in both houses. It accomplishes the same besmirching of administration policy without the look of blood dripping down one's fangs. Who knows, in the process we may actually catch them red-handed in a crime so incontrovertible that we can end up impeaching.

I am old enough to remember Watergate well. And I always felt the circus that surrounded that particular crime was chicken-doodie compared to the real crimes of the Nixon administration--starting with the assassination of Allende and installation of Pinochet. But I understand now that it is rather like Al Capone, who had to get caught on mere tax evasion in the end. We will not be successful in forcing resignation or removal on constiutional bones of contention like surveillance or the propriety of a pardon for Scooter Libby.

I know I hold a minority view here on this issue. If it could work, I'd be all for it. I see no way it can accomplish anything practical for our nation or our party besides a sense of revenge. So I say, let's try to stop them on other fronts from doing more damage in the next 17 months.

[grasswire]

17. you are wrong

And you need to watch the Bill Moyers program from Saturday night that is now available on PBS web site.

It doesn't matter if impeachment is actually won. It matters that the process of impeachment sets down a marker for history detailing the abuses and crimes against the Constitution.

If we do NOT record the fact that the Constitution was attacked, then we are assenting to the attack. We are partners in treason through implied consent.

[Ghost in the Machine]

24. some people just can't get that through their thick skulls...

"It doesn't matter if impeachment is actually won. It matters that the process of impeachment sets down a marker for history detailing the abuses and crimes against the Constitution.

If we do NOT record the fact that the Constitution was attacked, then we are assenting to the attack. We are partners in treason through implied consent."

I agree 100%

[beyurslf]

16. Unless republicans get on board, it will go down like the Clinton impeachment

in the 90's. The Republicans got hammered because it looked like a partisan witch hunt.

[grasswire]

18. I think the American people are smarter than that

....even though all the right's talking heads will try to muck things up, for sure. It will be a battle royale, but in the meantime our protest against treason will be detailed to the public.

And if Democrats had political strategists worth a plugged nickle, the talking points would be prepared and the message controlled, to counter the MSM blather.

[beyurslf]

23. How many people voted for GWB? The American people can be hoodwinked

by any decent con artist with a nice sounding promise--so long as he seems like the guy they might want at their next BBQ.

[frazzled]

19. sounds pretty

and I agree that we must never allow these constitutional depredations to occur again. But:

(a) the Clinton impeachment did nothing to prevent politicians from continuing to engage in untoward sexual liaisons or even, as we have seen of late, lying to a grand jury

(b) serious breaches of constiutionality have occurred in the past in our nation's history--from the blacklisting of the Army McCarthy hearings to the internment of US citizens during World War II to the Iran-Contra debacle of the former Bush administration ... and reaching all the way back into our earliest days. It was not the institution of impeachment that ended these practices and prevented their recurrence. It was the public realization of their inherent wrongness itself that was the corrective, and the self-correcting nature of democracy.

So in the end, as I reiterate--I would love to see these guys impeached. I am not particularly in favor of impeachment that is merely making a statement. Impeachment without removal will never end the crimes at issue--because the Bush administration has taught us one thing: when a president/v-p is determined to govern without caring about opinion or approval--or even reality-- no amount of knuckle-rapping will make a dent in their practices or the future practices of another evil-minded administration.. It could happen again, even with impeachment.

Sadly, I think if the Clinton impeachment hadn't happened, the story would be different. It has effectively put a damper on the whole idea of impeachment. I wonder if that's why they did it.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

21. People are caring more and more and Impeachment will give them an important civics lesson. People

woke up during Watergate and they would wake up now!!!!

Please, please view Moyers program from last night. I implore all DUers to do so, and then to pass it forward to their Representatives, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, the House Judiciary Committee and Friends!!!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1332753

Click on contact at both links, then let them know how you feel! You can reference and provide the link from Moyers program!!!!

Nancy Pelosi link
http://speaker.house.gov/
House Judiciary link
http://judiciary.house.gov/