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Tonight Bill Moyers and his guests are kicking ass and taking names. Impeachment is on our TABLE!

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Decruiter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:38 PM
Original message
Tonight Bill Moyers and his guests are kicking ass and taking names. Impeachment is on our TABLE!
Edited on Fri Jul-13-07 09:41 PM by Decruiter
Stand up everyone and be counted!

I just wish and I hope that everyone is listening to what they all have to say.

Good God, Miss Molly. They are telling us all what to do!

Why are we not all marching on Washington, wearing orange?

Walk away from our "jobs", take back our country.

We don't have much time left.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. we need to do something, or we will never get back what we had
before.
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
41. You're so right! I fear for, well for many things, but I think the
biggest is what we've lost in the civil liberties department. bush has lined his nest well and it scares me. The program was so inspiring and hopeful...I like thinking about using impeachment as a tool to clean up this mess. Going to re-watch it anytime I feel "down" about the country. Wish everyone in the country had seen it.
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. Great show! K&R! n/t
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. here are two other threads on this show:

Forum Name General Discussion
Topic subject For All Those Who Should Think Impeachment Should Be Off Of The
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
1330471, For All Those Who Should Think Impeachment Should Be Off Of The
Posted by malaise on Fri Jul-13-07 08:48 PM

Table!!

Nancy Pelosi et al are you listening to Bill Moyers?
Are you listening to Bruce Fein and John Nichols

Impeachment is the cure for a Constitutional Crisis.

What a fabulous discussion.

The Constitution is more important than Bush and Cheney. Hold them to account. IMPEACH!!IMPEACH!!

This is the best program I've watched in years.

Edit headline, text.



Forum Name General Discussion
Topic subject Tough Talk On Impeachement on Bill Moyer's Journal this evening.
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
1330902, Tough Talk On Impeachement on Bill Moyer's Journal this evening.
Posted by Cleita on Fri Jul-13-07 09:33 PM

This was a terrific show and all participating in this discussion agree that Nancy Pelosi needs to put impeachment back on the table or a terrible prescident in unbridled executive power is being set for future Presidents.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07132007/profile.html

Amazing that the conservative Bruce Fein was the loudest proponent of impeaching both Bush and Cheney. It was an interesting show. Catch it if you can.


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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
75. The Constitution is more important than Bush and Cheney and the war.
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rusty charly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
4. Walk away from our "jobs"
another european habit we need to develop.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
86. Europeans are not employed at will, meaning
that they usually can't be fired without cause. Most Americans are either employed at will and can be fired any time for any reason other that is not illegal or discriminatory or are employed as temps or contract workers who can be fired even more easily. (Forgive me for oversimplifying.) That is why Americans do not walk away from their jobs very quickly. We need to change a lot of things in this country.
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Decruiter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
5. "Impeachment is the cure for a Constitutional Crisis." Nichols
Bruce and John with Bill are giving us all the recipe.
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Decruiter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
6. High crimes and misdemeanors, if we don't hold them to account...........
This is must see TV!
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. I hope some members of Congress are watching this
and that maybe they are inspired to grow spines.

John Nichols says: Impeachment isn't a constitutional crisis. It's the cure for a constitutional crisis. Excellent! BRILLIANT! RIGHT FUCKING ON!
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Decruiter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Yep, Right F'ing ON! Where in the hell are the people elected to serve
"we the people". Out to lunch I guess.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
76. first they have to grow some brain cells and read up...
on the constitution and the history of those who created it and what impeachment is to be used for.

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Decruiter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
8. At the end Bill said "This war is killing us body and soul."
This war has to stop, these criminals have to be stopped and thrown into prison.

I just want to cry,. It is so obvious, how in all that is human and in whatever God you all believe are we allowing this to happen as Americans? I am truly at a loss.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. I watched it also, we need to step up and stop this immoral war.
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. We are children and subjects.
They compared what is happening with the USA now
to the collapse of the Roman Empire..

.. that the empire fell because people became children
and subjects, perhaps choosing to be entertained,
in essence foregoing their responsibilities as citizens.

That is the great question. Have we forgotten how to
be citizens?

Sue
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
42. We can do it....together...all of us!
:grouphug:
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
45. Sometimes I feel as if we are on a merry-go-round that never
stops....slows down and almost....but then speeds up and we're on another spin session...we've got to end this. I too am at a loss. This "take over" has been years in the planning and now we MUST call an abrupt halt to it. I know we can do it! We each must do our part.
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Frustratedlady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
10. Perhaps we should each send the url to our senators/reps AND Pelosi?
Edited on Fri Jul-13-07 10:02 PM by Frustratedlady
Maybe they'll take the hint and watch the show.

I was happy to hear them blame the media for not performing their function as they were meant to function.

I don't think anyone can lay it out any plainer than they did tonight. It was wonderful!

K&R'd
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
24. That is ONE GREAT IDEA! We can send links easily enough! nt
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Decruiter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. I like it, call and fax and e'mail them all. They have to hear this and they have to listen. NOW!
We are sick and tired and we are not taking it any more. BRING OUR KIDS HOME NOW AND REMOVE BUSH/CHENEY!
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
11. Nichols and Fein were brilliant!
That is the conversation that should be happening everywhere.

Impeach now!
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springhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #11
56. I thought they were both great until................
Edited on Sat Jul-14-07 01:49 AM by springhill
near the end of the show. They both said that if Bush and Cheney repented their sins and said they would never do it again, all would be forgiven. So, let me get this straight: you can break the law and flout the constitution repeatedly, but if you pinky promise never to do it again, no impeachment? I don't understand that at all. Did anyone else hear that part?
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #56
64. Yes, it bothered me too.
I don't think either Bush or Cheney can be trusted with a promise
to behave and cooperate.

I'm not sure why Nichols and Fein thought that impeachment alone
would bring them in line, when in fact they are serious, hardened
thugs and criminals.

Perhaps N and F have an optimistic streak and some kind of faith
in inherently good human nature, and I can understand that. It's
nice to think that anyone can reform and be rehabilitated, and of
course I would hope for that outcome with anyone regardless.

Now, if their impeachment were to bring about a change of heart
and tactics on the parts of Bush and Cheney, without resulting in
their respective convictions, then fine. But I have serious reservations
about those particular impeachments alone being enough to
effect a sea-change in their guiding ruling philosophies; I think it's
going to take convictions as well. Messy, but necessary.

Sue
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LiberalHeart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #56
70. I liked it when they said that .... it took impeachment out the punishment category...
....and made it all about saving the country, the Constitution. That, in turn, takes this out of the politicla arena and makes it a pure act by Americans who love their country and the rule of law, regardless of party. But the criteria for stopping the process of impeachment would require Bush and Cheney to do what is not in their DNA to deliver. It's the perfect trap for them, yet not just a trick. It's logical, brilliant, and leaves the even staunchest conservative with no argument for not impeaching.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
12. What did they say?

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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. They said the country is in a constitutional crisis.
And the cure is impeachment.

Sue
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Decruiter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. We are in a CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS! THE CURE IS IMPEACHMENT!
Talk about taking an argument back.....
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Damn straight!
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Decruiter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Oh good heavens, Swamp, you missed it. It was the best, it was brilliant,
it was scathing and honest. I don't know how to help you find the transcript but it will surely be put up soon.

It was the best. And by the way, so are you. I'd like to turn the above into a bumper sticker.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Here's some more:
Thanks! :hi:

Download and print:










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Decruiter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Okey dokey, Let us do this! I'll find a printer tomorrow! The time is NOW!
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #20
46. I must get those new cartridges tomorrow! Go to pbs.org and
click on Moyers and you will find it....the transcript will be posted I'm certain and I think it's podcast....not certain but I think I read that tonight! I'm so excited I don't know my real name! They talked about everything we've been discussing here on DU....so much material and they got it in! THIS IS A MUST SEE!
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #17
77. Bill Moyers July 13 2007 IMPEACHMENT VIDEO
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Decruiter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Here is the link. Read it and pass it on!
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. Thanks!!
They have video too! :D
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #12
30. ...
:rofl:
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. .
:D
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Decruiter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #32
58. The two of you are both just too cute, Video TOO! ROFLMAO.
:rofl: and :applause: your sarcasm was not missed.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. I just saw some of the Moyers interview on YouTube.
Like I said over and over again, thread after thread after thread...



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Decruiter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. I like this one, but what could you do with IMPEACHMENT IS PATRIOTIC?
I'll say it again, Swampy, you are one of the best!
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. Here ya go:
:)





Now I am going to watch the re-play on PBS of the whole interview. :hi:
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Decruiter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. Close, needs a little work though. Hope you enjoy the replay. I'm watching the
replay of Sara and Senator Leahy. She was just amazing on Wednesday. And only two Repub's showed up all day.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #62
73. Here's another:
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
13. I hope congress was listening tonight
John Nichols and Peter Fein did one hell of a job.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
23. Some great comments, and I thought Fein and Nichols were superb:


Impeachment would define future presidencies; no one would be able to get away with what this admin has. Any authority to go outside the rule of law is wrong and needs to be corrected.

Leaders consider us, the citizens, children. High crimes and misdemeanors are happening; we need to be paying attention.

Politicians don't seem to know how to handle this moment in time -presidency has no regard for checks and balances, pointed out numerous times.
This admin has inflated danger; we need an agressive Congress, not invertebrates. This admin has exhibited a pattern of behavior that doesn't respect the rule of law.

We need people who cherish their country more than their party; we need a hero to point that out, someone with courage and conviction.

Impeachment is a cure for a constitutional crisis!

Dems seem to know this admin is screwing up, but are waiting to see what they do next instead of changing the conversation. They need to constrain the presidency, not the president. (reframe that sucker!)

Nixon never had to repent; in order for the blivet to be forgiven, he has to see the error of his ways and apologize (Fein said that, and I don't agree, but I imagine he thinks it would never happen)

Finally, Moyers harkened back to when PBS first got started, as a result of Watergate. People were paying attention then, and he wishes a station such as PBS would air every Congressional hearing.

The show rocked!
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
37. And Moyers was excellent with
the but, but questions! There is no excuse not to IMPEACH!
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #23
40. Nice recap.
Though I do think that Fein's apology scenario is an outcome that we have prepare for if we seek this avenue? Especially given there was no real discussion of removal from office being "the goal."
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
25. I'm watching right now...LOVE the fact that his guest just said...
The lack of action against the executive branch indicates a deeper problem
within the government...
DUH!
No shit!
They are called Congress PIGS, feeding at the MIC corporate trough.
Impeach them ALL.
We need to start over with a clean house forbidden
to accept corporate fascist dollars.

BHN
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Decruiter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. There is the ticket BHN. We need to bring an end to corporate personhood.
Edited on Fri Jul-13-07 10:36 PM by Decruiter
check out www.reclaimdemocracy.org

I think you'll like it and everyone needs to know the history of our corporate culture and why we are where we are today.

We can end this nightmare.
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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
27. Mandatory viewing for all DUers
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
31. One thing: WE shouldn't be the ones wearing orange...
the squatters in our White House are the ones who should be wearing bright orange...or black-and-white stripes...

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NastyRiffraff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
33. Where's the video???
I clicked on "Watch and Listen" and it was a past show.
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #33
67. It's at this link
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #33
78. IIMPEACHMENT VIDEO LINK
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NastyRiffraff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #78
88. Thanks! n/t
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
34. Impeach bush and cheney poster for four printed pages of paper
This is a PDF. On it are the words "Impeach Bush and Cheney." It is 4 pages and will type out on any printer. I would try printing without a border. You will still have to do some trimming. You will see that it is not centered on the sheets. There is more space after the letters. You can trim that too. I find that using a glue stick is the least hassle adhesive to use for mounting the sheets to a backing. I would start by tacking one corner of the first piece, then align and attach the others as you go along. A sharpie will clean up any gaps in the letters.

http://homepage.mac.com/alfredo_tomato/du/impeach4sheet... Clicking this link will begin the download of the PDF.

A good size for your street corner demonstration.

I used PosteRazor to make the four sheet PDF. It is free and will run on various platforms including Windows, Mac, Linux.
http://posterazor.sourceforge.net /
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
35. "Nancy Pelosi is WRONG.." (about impeachment)
"and she needs to changes course NOW"!

Great show.
Mandatory.

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deacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #35
84. Agree, Pelosi is the one that needs to change course.
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
36. As always, Bill Moyers is excellent!
This show should be broadcasted as a service to the country on all broadcast and cable channels.
Of course this doesn't happen anymore.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
38. Pass the fucking gravy!
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
39. My new mantra on impeachment
Tired of the "we don't have the votes, it's a waste of time, we can't win, it will only hurt us folks? Remind them of this:
America was once the underdog. We fought better armed, better financed and better resourced foes, against all odds, for truth, liberty and freedom, and we came out victorious. Suer it's crazy, we'll probably get our asses kicked, but you know, at one time the words "it's impossible" weren't a reason to back off, they were a challenge to overcome. Time to get our ideals back.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. And the French.
:evilgrin:
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Decruiter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #39
50. Dude, you are talking about our founding fathers. The "patriots" that our RW
rabid, die hard BushCo Republican love to pretend to be. Who exactly did we fight for freedom? Oh yes, it was England, King George, go figure? Does history really have to keep on repeating?

We need some serious education in this country.

There is a gospel song is there not.. "we shall overcome"
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #50
57. Pelosi's version would be "Overcoming is off the table" n/t
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #50
79. Actually I was talking about things like Slavery,
womens rights, civil rights, the rights of the individual to speak his mind, and believe what he wants to believe. Our government is FUBAR no doubt and we have much to feel guilty for over the years but the American people are generally good decent people who know the difference between right and wrong, they just need to be shown the way. The spirit of America is to fight against tyranny, the spirit, not the government or our founding fathers but the spirit.
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
43. K&R "we don't have much time left"....but they said that shouldn't
stop us and that it must be done as the founding fathers instructed us to do in times like this.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
47. Just finished watching it on the west coast
IMPEACH!
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vanlassie Donating Member (826 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
48. That was worth ordering
from PBS and passing around to friends and family.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
49. Here in Lake County CAthe transmission to Channel Nine was cut
Other channels are working though, HMM
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
51. "Good God, Miss Molly. They are telling us all what to do!"
Edited on Sat Jul-14-07 12:36 AM by mzmolly
Hey is that for me? If so, I'm flattered. ;) If not, ignore my ego-maniacal question.

It was a great program, glad I tuned in.
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Decruiter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. It was not directed at you MzMolly. It is just a southern thing....an old one too.
It was a powerful program, glad you were able to tune in and catch it.

Spread it around.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. Well, that proves my username is good one.
It's catchy, and it honors the late great Molly Ivins who, along with Little Richard inspired the name. I got heat for an impeachment thread yesterday and wanted to respond personally 'just in case.'

:hi:
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. Did this program change your opinion
Edited on Sat Jul-14-07 01:35 AM by senseandsensibility
about impeachment at all? I'm just curious; it was such a powerful, energizing program and countered so many of the reasons I've heard against impeachment. I've been a lukewarm supporter with many misgivings, and this was the best case made for it that I've seen.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #54
68. I'm still digesting it all. I think what's changed for me is my expectation of what impeachment is
supposed to accomplish. Also, I'm no longer looking to the next election, but to the next century. Further I believe now, that we have to impeach both Bush and Cheney.

That said, I think we are proceeding in that direction "under the table." ;) We are investigating, we're making a case, and the media doesn't appear to be aware? I also feel that impeachment can not replace the 'end the war' objective, nor should it be tied to war specifically by those in support of impeaching the cabal. My main concern is that we are perhaps muddying the waters between the two?

I do understand the argument that impeachment will smack the bravado out of Bush/Cheney and co. and we need to put them in check. Impeachment should accomplish this, and perhaps in an indirect manner it will have an effect on the war? But, we can't assume that impeachment is a means to end the war as it may distract from that goal, especially from a media/public education perspective. So for me, the question remains. Will impeachment now take the war out of the media spotlight, and if so, is this what we want?

Perhaps I can view impeachment as "justice" FOR the troops in some fashion and reconcile my misgivings?

I remain concerned about the war/soldiers first and foremost and I feel that we're going to continue to pressure Republicans this fall, when the newest "progress" report comes back from Iraq. I think Democrats are thinking in terms of ending the war, and then going after Bush and Cheney in full view?

Sorry to ramble on. I think as I speak/type. It helps me sort out my feelings on things. :hi:

Anyhow, what about you, have you adjusted your thinking at all?
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #68
71. It's a very complicated issue
and of course in our sound bite culture, it is never discussed in depth. That's why last night's program was almost an epiphany for me. Both guests (one very conservative) stressed that we need to do this to stop a constitutional crisis. The constitutional crisis is well under way now. Just because the corporate media (surprise, surprise) doesn't report it, doesn't mean the crisis doesn't exist. Even Moyers made the mistake of calling impeachment a crisis, when impeachment would actually be the cure. Both guests pointed out that our founding fathers wanted us to be familiar with the word impeachment, and to use it.

The other aspect that I found compelling was that new powers are being granted to the executive branch almost daily by this crowd. If we don't stop them, these powers will become permanent because no President of either party (especially a repug, but that's just my partisanship showing) will ever give them up. So by doing nothing, we the people are accepting this and are willingly allowing the executive branch to become a monarchy. Our founding fathers were afraid of this above all.

Although I am passionately against the war, I appreciated last night's program because it forced me out of my little one-issue world and made me see the big picture. The crisis we are in now is about an unconstitutional power grab by this administration that could become permanent. It's really much bigger than just this war, because it could lead to future wars and atrocities that make Iraq look like a cakewalk. That's why we need to stop it now using the tools the founders gave us: impeachment.

Now who's on the soapbox? :toast: to you if you made it to the end. :-)
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. Your summary is fantastic.
Edited on Sat Jul-14-07 04:55 PM by mzmolly
The other aspect that I found compelling was that new powers are being granted to the executive branch almost daily by this crowd. If we don't stop them, these powers will become permanent because no President of either party (especially a repug, but that's just my partisanship showing) will ever give them up. So by doing nothing, we the people are accepting this and are willingly allowing the executive branch to become a monarchy. Our founding fathers were afraid of this above all.

Although I am passionately against the war, I appreciated last night's program because it forced me out of my little one-issue world and made me see the big picture. The crisis we are in now is about an unconstitutional power grab by this administration that could become permanent. It's really much bigger than just this war, because it could lead to future wars and atrocities that make Iraq look like a cakewalk. That's why we need to stop it now using the tools the founders gave us: impeachment.


VERY WELL SAID! :toast: I found myself nodding as I read. Literally.
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #74
82. Thanks, mzmolly!
Yours was very thought provoking as well. I was thinking and writing, as you did, and the ideas just kept coming. Amazing how that happens when you have a chance to watch intelligent journalism, isn't it? It's been so long since I watched any, I'd almost forgotten... :hi:
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #82
85. Re:
Edited on Sat Jul-14-07 07:20 PM by mzmolly
Amazing how that happens when you have a chance to watch intelligent journalism, isn't it?

I hear that! I so wish we had a credible media today, I found the discussion about how the 4th branch of government is lacking in their duty - interesting as well.

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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #71
80. "Even Moyers made the mistake of calling impeachment a crisis" Moyers was playing Devil's Advocate.
He doesn't really think that. He was playing Devil's advocate throughout the interview. He asked all the questions the people would ask and made all the comments the repukes WILL make, should Impeachment ever be put on the table. :)

Moyers knows which end is up. He was just covering all the bases/questions that are surely going to be asked. :)
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. Well, I kind of knew that
because he was obviously doing that during other parts of the show. But during this part, I was talking to my hubby and missed what Moyers actually said. I had to surmise it from how his guest responded. So I guess a little was lost in the translation. :)
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Decruiter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. I did not mention Molly I, but you did. Hope part of why you chose your name was
Edited on Sat Jul-14-07 01:35 AM by Decruiter
based upon your admiration of her.

No heat from this quarter on the I issue, none at all.

on edit: Were you/are you opposed to impeachment?
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #55
66. Indeed I loved Molly. I wasn't opposed to Impeachment and I'm not opposed now.
I do remain opposed to the notion that impeachment = ending the war. My concern is that we are muddying the waters between the two and I was distressed that Moyers didn't take the war on. I realize now that they are individual issues and that impeachment is not about the war. I also viewed impeachment as an option vs. obligation. However I now feel we must look to the next century, not simply the next election. Bush has to be reprimanded.

Peace
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #51
63. Yes, just for you-they knew you were listening!
:toast:
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #63
69. LOL
:hi:
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
65. EVERY member of congress needs to watch this interview.
And then go READ and LEARN their constitution.
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JacquesMolay Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
72. It's tough for them to fight Moyers ...
... he's such a professional when it comes to drawing up his stories and backing them up with facts. He's an actual journalist (and thinker), unlike the airheads that have taken over that industry.
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
81. my god yes...yes, yes, yesssssss. Big nom for truth
Edited on Sat Jul-14-07 06:20 PM by ooglymoogly
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faithnotgreed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
87. kicking - thank you bill moyers
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faithnotgreed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
89. and again ....
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. Our Glorious Leader said that we must move on.
OK. Let us move on Impeachment!
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