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John Dean: Harriet Miers's Contempt: Congress Needs To Protect Its Powers: Only One Way It Can Do So

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seafan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 08:50 AM
Original message
John Dean: Harriet Miers's Contempt: Congress Needs To Protect Its Powers: Only One Way It Can Do So
Edited on Fri Jul-13-07 08:55 AM by seafan
Harriet Miers's Contempt of Congress: Are Conservatives About To Neuter Congress, While Claiming Full Legal Justification for this Separation-of-Powers Violation?

By John Dean
July 13, 2007


President George Bush has issued an instruction to his former White House counsel Harriet Miers to defy the House Judiciary Committee's subpoena. The Committee had sought to ask her about her role - and that of others in the White House - in firing a covey of United States Attorneys who were apparently not toeing the political line. Bush's instruction sent a very clear signal: As I wrote earlier, and as has been clear from the outset, he is looking for a fight.
By not responding to the subpoena, the President and Ms. Miers all but invited the House Judiciary Committee and, in turn, the House of Representatives to vote to deem her in contempt of Congress. It was a defiant, in-your-face insult to Congress. No president would do this unless he was quite confident of the outcome. Clearly, Bush's White House and Justice Department lawyers believe that the solidly conservative federal judiciary will grant them a favorable ruling, and that, in the process, they will greatly weaken congressional oversight powers, to the advantage of the White House.


In short, the Bush White House is not bluffing with this act of defiance. Rather, the White House truly wants to test, and attempt to expand, presidential power. Bush's White House is ready, willing, and able to play hardball. Indeed, the White House may actually be trying to bait the House Judiciary Committee and the House of Representatives into voting to deem Ms. Miers in contempt of congress.
..... Long ago, Congress should have oiled up its most powerful tool to require Executive cooperation. No one who follows these matters is surprised that Bush is again pushing the envelope of presidential powers. But it continues to mystify me why Congress does not get its act together, and remind the White House that they are constitutional co-equals.

.....

Moreover, the Bush White House clearly believes the law is on its side. The Los Angeles Times reports that the Justice Department has provided the White House with a "broadly worded legal opinion" advising that "senior White House officials" can "ignore subpoenas from Congress to testify about the U.S. attorneys affair." This "three-page opinion," the L.A. Times says, "raises questions about whether the Justice Department would prosecute senior administration officials if Congress voted to hold them in contempt." The L.A. Times's article also notes that, under the law, the U.S. Attorney for the District of Columba decides whether or not to pursue such cases when they are referred by the House or Senate for prosecution.

Needless to say, this is an extraordinary legal opinion, but not a surprising one. It is consistent with Bush's embrace of the "unitary executive theory."

.....

This is a very aggressive position. While it does not reflect the current state of the law, given the pro-presidential bias among so many of the conservative jurists who now dominate the federal judiciary, and particularly the Supreme Court, Bush may well succeed in defending this position if this matter goes to court.

.....

Congress Needs To Protect Its Powers: Only One Way It Can Do So

.....Finally, if Miers is found in contempt, the House itself can take action against her at the bar of the House. (The Senate can similarly hold such proceedings.) Congress has the power to prosecute contumacious witnesses to require them to comply, and the Supreme Court has repeatedly reaffirmed this power. For example, in 1987, in Young v. U.S., Justice Antonin Scalia recognized "the narrow principle of necessity" or "self-defense" of the Congress in protecting its institutional prerogatives. Scalia said "the Legislative, Executive, and Judicial Branches must each possess those powers necessary to protect the functioning of its own processes, although those implicit powers may take a form that appears to be nonlegislative, nonexecutive, or nonjudicial, respectively."

When all is said and done the only way Congress can protect its prerogatives is to undertake its own contempt proceedings. The parliamentary precedents of the House provide such procedures, by which Congress can effectively protect itself. There is no shortage of past instances where the Congress has held such trials. Readers may want to consult, for example, Hinds' Precedents and Canon's Precedents. Unfortunately, however, this machinery has become a bit rusty, for these procedures have not been used since 1934.

.....

Given the clear attitude of conservative presidents, who are doing all within their power to make Congress irrelevant, Congress should turn to these underemployed precedents and put them back to work. The House and Senate Judiciary Committees should take the lead in reviving these procedures, and the Democrats' leadership should announce that they are embracing them.
If they do not, Fred Fielding has it right: Officials are absolutely immune from compelled Congressional testimony. Bush can simply tell Congress to stop sending subpoenas to his appointees. However, if Congress does engage in a little self-help at this crucial juncture, it can be sure that not only Harriet Miers, but also George Bush, will be forced to pay attention to congressional subpoenas - for the bottom line is that Congress will not need the cooperation of the other branches to enable it to conduct proper oversight.





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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
1. Don't just recommend this one - keep it kicked too
It's a keeper.

John Dean is all too familiar with just how bad an administration can be. Make sure YOUR congressional reps read and really grasp what he is saying. Send this along to them. ;)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. Right.
Nominated.

Very important thread.
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Cass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
2. Important article from Mr. Dean.
K&R
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
3. But doesn't this mean...
Edited on Fri Jul-13-07 09:06 AM by zanne
Doesn't this mean that Bush and his minions are opening the door for any president, Republican or Democrat, to cite executive privilege whenever it's convenient? Doesn't this mean that the next president, who is bound to be a Democrat, will have the same powers? Won't Republicans be finding themselves in the same position that Democrats are finding themselves in now?
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global1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. It Probably Does Mean The Next President Will Have The Same Powers - With Two Caveats.....
1. Will there be a next president - or will *Co cancel the '08 election? You know they need to keep this war going and now we have (coincidentally) Al Quaida raising its ugly head

and

2. If by chance the election goes on and the Dems win and the Dem president invokes Executive Privilege - the Repugs aren't afraid to use its prerogatives and to undertake its own contempt proceedings.

I hope the Dems follow Dean's advice here - but usually they seem to be intimidated by actions such as this or currently 'impeachment'.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #3
18. I don't think the psycho has any plans of leaving office in '08. He isn't worried about a Dem prez..
Troubling Bush Power Grab -- Secret Government Moved to White House Control
by citizen92
Thu May 10, 2007 at 07:56:40 AM PDT

George W. Bush yesterday signed National Security Presidential Directive 51 and Homeland Security Presidential Directive 20, ordering Executive Agencies to prepare contingency plans for a "decapitating" attack on the federal govermnent.

More importantly, the NPSD and HSPD vests responsibility for coordinating the plans in the White House.

Plans for "Continuity of Government" are as old as the Cold War. In fact, today there are career bureaucrats punching the clock in various undisclosed locations as part of a program to ensure contingency plans are in place. COG is run by DHS and FEMA. So Bush's plans are not new. They already exist. So here, only one thing is new. They moved responsibility to the White House.<snip>

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/5/10/10053/2211

Directive 51:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070509-12.html


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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
83. K&R, imagine a Katrina-like beauracracy running the whole country n/t
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #83
91. A "Katrina-like beauracracy running the whole country" IS
Edited on Fri Jul-13-07 04:06 PM by goclark
running our whole country.
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HuskiesHowls Donating Member (582 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
87. In the words of Abraham Lincoln...who was ALSO a Republican!!

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing Government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." Abraham Lincoln: First Inaugural Address

(my emphasis)
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
119. They assume there will never be another Dem president--and they
have taken steps to ensure it: stacking the courts, politicizing the Justice Department, arranging for electronic voting, suppressing legitimate voters, and all sorts of other frauds and cheats to make sure their "math" will be the only math that counts.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
4. If a President can prohibit anyone from testifying to congress...
... solely on the basis that (s)he has information relevant to the investigation, then there's no way that any future President can ever be brought to justice for anything they've done.

Defendants don't get to veto prosecution witnesses. Only a king or a dictator gets to do that.
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
51. .....
or a Chimp, apparently!!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
84. Note the LACK of challenge on this by the press?????
Not that there is any challenge to Bush generally --
but this one is so easy --

Bush and his aides above the law?

And yet the GOP had to bring Clinton's penis to trial --
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
149. That's why impeachment is in the Constitution
:shrug:
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
5. Everything Hitler did
was legal.

Do not allow any US president dictatorial powers, America!

And anyone who truly doesn't think that is exactly what george w bush is after, is either the most ignorant idiot on the planet, or...nope, that's it.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
6. Congress cannot let these thugs get away with this crap or they will be rendered USELESS. I hope
someone in Congress is reading this article and taking heed. Do they REALLY want a dictator in the United States of America? That's where we're headed unless they stop him!!! Do the repuke Congress assholes REALLY want to forfeit THEIR POWER too? Are they INSANE??

COME ON CONGRESS! Do your job!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
85. Why not let Pelosi know? [email protected]
Be sure that someone does read your message -- !!!!

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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
7. Kick, kick, KICK! Bush is throwing down the gauntlet at the Congress.
Edited on Fri Jul-13-07 09:16 AM by blondeatlast
The US will have little left if he is allowed to succeed in this.
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vssmith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
8. Bush has ordered Miers not to talk
What if she goes to the committee and tells all. What recourse does Bush have because she defied his order?
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. She's no John Dean. She's starry-eyed for him and will probably happily take the fall.
It's demented, but she's blinded. :scared:
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xiamiam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
9. beyond insanity...i am so sick of these criminals..this is over the top..imo..nt
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
11. kick
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
14. Kick AND R
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
15. krkrkrkrkr
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Blackhatjack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
16. There needs to be a two-pronged approach here...
First, adopt John Dean's recommendation --send the sargeant at arms to take Miers into custody and deliver her to the floor of the House for a trial on contempt.

Second, file articles of impeachment against Gonzales, Cheney and Bush in the House(in that order).

Trial on the floor of the House is not appealable to the Courts.
Articles of Impeachment in the House are not appealable to the Courts.

Time to take the gloves off.


Bring it all in front of CSPAN cameras for all the world to see.

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halobeam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. swift kick
and a rec!
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seafan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Yes. We have the majority in the House. We must USE IT NOW.
Arrest and incarcerate Miers.

Immediately convene impeachment proceedings against Bush/Cheney/Gonzales, for these three men have subverted the Constitution of the United States of America.

All of this can be done exclusively in the House of Representatives.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. GREAT post! That's exactly what they need to do and Impeachments in the order you listed!
Arrest Miers, Take back the Justice Dept. by Impeaching Gonzo, Impeach the ring leader, Cheney, and then the psycho who has let this all happen to our country.

These thugs must be stopped.
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Blackhatjack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #16
25. Dems need to understand that the public is now tuned in and listening...
The MSM will not cover this Administrations transgressions.

However, if CSPAN is covering the House and Senate, the MSM cannot keep the public from seeing and hearing the events play out.

If there are any Democrats with an ounce of foresight, they will understand that the people are ready for the Democrats to take action and the action to be taken should be bold in the light of such corrupt and evil actors within this Administration.

To do less is to surrender constitutional government in the United States.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. "To do less is to surrender constitutional government in the United States."
We can't hide from it any longer--he wants to neuter Congress.

If this goes to THIS SCOTUS, let's face it--separation of powers is doomed.

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
66. Seems logical.....yet
our Dems seem very hesitant to do this. They seem to be whistling past the graveyard while the blogs are filled with all kinds of legal speculation as to which legal precedent will apply. From Empywheel to Josh Marshall to Firedoglake, Kos and DU, etc, it seems that a clueless House and Senate are scrambling to find a legal way to challenge Bushies.

Yet, I seem to remember that both House and Senate have legal advisors who know the rules inside and out and have "on call" any kind of reference for legal precidents from the beginning of our country....yet it's left up to the liberal Blogs and legal eagles on the left and right to theorize as if what we are going through is so "new" that no one knows what can be done to preserve the separation of our legislative branch.

It's starting to get to me...so much babble...that, in fact, no one wants to really challenge the Executive and Judicial. Congress might as well hang that sign out that Sen. Byrd said...long ago on eve of Iraq Invasions: GONE FISHING....

Caution is one thing...but this seeming lack of ability to know what to do legally seems far fetched. :shrug:
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #66
126. It is a new thing
There aren't precedents. They've never had one as bad as Chimp before.
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KAT119 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
78. PERFECT, Blackhatjack!! We can email your post to Conyers and Linda
Edited on Fri Jul-13-07 02:48 PM by KAT119
Sanchez (head of Miers panel) at: http://judiciary.house.gov/Contact.aspx

Phone: 202-225-3951(Conyers)
Phone: 202 225-6676 (Sanchez)

Full Committee Membership:http://judiciary.house.gov/CommitteeMembership.aspx

Great Plan-I'm In!!!
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
79. Oh, hell yes. I'm gonna crib some of that for e-mails , if you don't mind,
to each and ever member of the Judiciary committee and the House at large.
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
19. Ha. I was unaware of this option. Thanks for the post.
:kick:
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rubberducky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
21. KNR
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
23. K&R
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
24. K&R
:kick:
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
26. Q: Did Bush ORDER anyone else not to testify? Or just Miers?
Edited on Fri Jul-13-07 10:03 AM by blondeatlast
I bring this up not to suggest conspiracy (I think it smacks of it, but that's not what I'm getting at).

Instead, I see something else--a semi=brilliant PR move. Suppose the contempt is issued and Miers is compelled to testify or go to jail. I see her as a very, very useful idiot for George. She idolizes him and seemingly would do anything for him (witness her non-appearance).

Not only that, she's an older woman and if she's areested, George, Inc. will get tons of PR off of playing that nice old lady (who's really a tough old RRR wingnut, but the public doesn't know that) against that big, overbearing mean Congress.

This is getting crucial and it appears that the WH has it all planned out. am I getting too tin-hattish (the tin messes with my dye, so I try to avoid it).
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seafan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:05 AM
Original message
John Dean, in March, '07: Bush's greatest problem here, however, is Harriet Miers."
Edited on Fri Jul-13-07 10:07 AM by seafan
This is exactly the reason for Bush's aggression regarding Harriet Miers. Bush will do *anything* to block her testimony because he knows she will not lie for him.

Bush knew Sara Taylor would lie for him by omission and obfuscation, so he didn't issue the same caliber of aggressive ultimatum to her not to appear.



Here is what John Dean said about this in March:



It Seems Likely Bush, with Fielding, Will Go to the Wall on Executive Privilege

This time, it is my belief that Bush -- unlike Reagan before him -- will not blink. He will not let Fielding strike a deal, as Fielding did for Reagan. Rather, Bush feels that he has his manhood on the line. He knows what his conservative constituency wants: a strong president who protects his prerogatives. He believes in the unitary executive theory of protecting those prerogatives, and of strengthening the presidency by defying Congress.

In short, all those who have wanted to see Karl Rove in jail may get their wish, for he will not cave in, either -- and may well be prosecuted for contempt, as Gorsuch was not. Bush's greatest problem here, however, is Harriett Miers. It is dubious he can exert any privilege over a former White House Counsel; I doubt she is ready to go to prison for him; and all who know her say if she is under oath, she will not lie. That could be a problem.

-----John Dean, March 23, 2007
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Blackhatjack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
37. I agree with Dean's assessment. Miers has probably told Bush "I will not lie under oath"...
Miers is smart enough to avoid the Libby-trap.

She will put the onus on Bush to make sure she is not in that position.

This is just speculation, but I believe Miers intended to appear before Congress subject to the subpoena UNTIL Bush showed her the 3 page opinion from the DOJ saying she did not have to appear if the President invoked 'executive privilege' AND Bush assured her that the USA in D.C. would not prosecute a 'contempt of Congress' referral.

IMHO if Dems manage to put Miers under oath, they will find out a lot.

The last option to prevent her from testifying against Cheney and Bush might be if Miers suddenly became incapacitated, missing or dead.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. Gad. A few years ago, I would have thought they wouldn't go that far.
That was a few years ago, though.

:scared:
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
42. Whatever it takes, they must make her testify. This, IMHO, is the case
that is going to make or break Congress.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
27. I googled "Hind's Precedent" and found this:
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=cannons_prec_vol_vi&docid=f:cannon_clxxxiv.wais

After finding Charles C. Glover in contempt for assaulting a Representative, they ordered the Sergeant-at-arms to go arrest him, and cart him back to the House. Is there any reason that Harriet Miers deserves more delicacy?

The committee therefore recommend the adoption of the following
resolution:

Resolved, That the Speaker do issue his warrant directed to the
Sergeant at Arms commanding him to take in custody, wherever to be
found, the body of Charles C. Glover, of the city of Washington. in the
District of Columbia, and the same in custody keep, and that the said
Charles C.
Sec. 333
Glover be brought to the bar of the House of Representatives on a day
to be fixed in said warrant to answer the charge that he, on Friday,
April 18, 1913, in the city of Washington, D.C., committed an assault
upon the person of Representative Thetus W. Sims, a Representative in
the Sixty-third Congress from the State of Tennessee, because of words
spoken by the said Representative Sims in debate on the floor of the
House of Representatives while the House was in regular session during
the Sixty-second Congress, and that in committing said assault Charles
C. Glover has been guilty of a breach of the privileges and a contempt
of the House of Representatives; and that the said Charles C. Glover be
furnished with a copy of this resolution and a copy of the report of
the select committee of the House of Representatives appointed to
investigate the charge made against him in the House of
Representatives.
Resolved, That when Charles C. Glover shall be brought to the bar of
the House to answer the charge of having violated the privilege of the
House of Representatives by having made an assault upon Representative
Thetus W. Sims, of the State of Tennessee, for words spoken by said
Representative Sims on the floor of the House of Representatives, the
Speaker shall then cause to be read to the said Charles C. Glover the
findings of facts by the special committee of the House charged with
the duty of investigating whether or not the said assault had in fact
been committed as alleged, and whether or not the said Charles C.
Glover had violated the privileges of the House of Representatives by
said assault. The Speaker shall then inquire of the said Charles C.
Glover if he desires to be heard, and to have counsel, on the charge of
being in contempt of the House of Representatives for having violated
its privileges. If the said Charles C. Glover desires to avail himself
of either of these privileges, the same shall be granted him, if not
the House shall thereupon proceed to take order in the matter.

333. The case of Charles C. Glover continued.
A citizen having assaulted a Member for words spoken in debate, the
House arrested, arraigned, and censured him.
The Speaker held that Members might not confer with a respondent
arraigned at the bar of the House.
Censure inflicted by the Speaker on a citizen and his apology to the
House appear in full in the Journal.
Form of proceedings at the arraignment and censure of Charles C.
Glover.
On May 9, 1913,\1\ the first section of the resolution recommended by
the committee was offered, as of privilege, by Mr. Davis, and after
extended debate was amended by the addition of the second section
recommended by the committee, and agreed to as amended, yeas 200, nays
4.
Whereupon \2\ Mr. J. Harry Covington, of Maryland, inquired:

Is the Speaker now about to execute the action in warrant for the
apprehension of Mr. Glover?

The Speaker \3\ said:

That is exactly what he is about to do. The Chair has been informed
that Mr. Glover is within the building and can be very easily found.
The precedents in the case seem to show that when Mr. Glover is brought
in Members will not be allowed to confer with him until the matter is
finished.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
\1\ First session Sixty-third Congress, Journal, p. 141.
\2\ Record, p. 1431.
\3\ Champ Clark, of Missouri, Speaker.
Sec. 333
The Speaker thereupon signed and delivered to the Sergeant at Arms of
the House the following warrant:

House of Representatives, United States of America,

Ninth day of May, 1913, ss:
To Robert B. Gordon, Sergeant at Arms, greeting:
Whereas the House of Representatives of the United States on the 9th
day of May, 1913, then being in session in the city of Washington, DC,
did resolve that the Speaker do issue his warrant directed to the
Sergeant at Arms commanding him to take into custody wherever to be
found the body of Charles C. Glover, of the city of Washington, DC, and
the same in custody to keep, and that the said Charles C. Glover be
brought to the bar of the House of Representatives on the 9th day of
May, 1913, to answer the charge that he, on Friday, April 18, 1913, in
the city of Washington, DC, committed an assault upon the person of
Representative Thetus W. Sims, a Representative in the Sixty-third
Congress from the State of Tennessee, because of words spoken by the
said Representative Sims in debate on the floor of the House of
Representatives while the House was in regular session during the
Sixty-second Congress, and that in committing said assault he, the said
Charles C. Glover, has been guilty of a breach of the privileges and a
contempt of the House of Representatives:
These are therefore to require you, Robert B. Gordon, Sergeant at
Arms for the House of Representatives of the United States, forthwith
to take into your custody the body of said Charles C. Glover, of the
city of Washington, DC, and him safely to keep, and to bring him before
the bar of the House of Representatives on the 9th day of May, 1913;
and all marshals and deputy marshals, civil officers of the United
States, and every other person are hereby required to be aiding and
assisting you in the execution thereof, for which this shall be your
sufficient warrant.
Given under my hand this 9th day of May, 1913.
Champ Clark,
Speaker of the House of Representatives.
In testimony of the authority of this warrant, witness the seal of
the House of Representatives of the United States this 9th day of May,
1913.
South Trimble,
Clerk of the House of Representatives.

Upon this warrant the Sergeant at Arms made returns as follows:

House of Representatives,
Washington, D.C. 9th day of May, 1913, ss:
To Hon. Champ Clark, Speaker, greeting:
Received the within warrant on the 9th day of May, A. D. 1913, and
pursuant to its command I did, on the 9th day of May, A. D. 1913, as
directed, take into custody the body of said Charles C. Glover there in
named and brought him forthwith to the bar of the House of
Representatives.
Given under my hand this 9th day of May, 1913.
R.B. Gordon,
Sergeant at Arms, House of Representatives.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. No--but see my post above. I see the WH planning a PR move.
That's why I'm wondering if HM is the only person ORDERED not to appear...
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
30. Can we send the Sergeant-at-Arms to arrest her? K&R
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. YES. "Inherent Contempt of Congress"
Inherent contempt

Under this process, the procedure for holding a person in contempt involves only the chamber concerned. Following a contempt citation, the person cited for contempt is arrested by the Sergeant-at-Arms for the House or Senate, brought to the floor of the chamber, held to answer charges by the presiding officer, and then subject to punishment that the House may dictate (usually imprisonment for punishment reasons, imprisonment for coercive effect, or release from the contempt citation.)

Concerned with the time-consuming nature of a contempt proceeding and the inability to extend punishment further than the session of the Congress concerned (under Supreme Court rulings), Congress created a statutory process in 1857. While Congress retains its "inherent contempt" authority and may exercise it at any time, this inherent contempt process was last used by the Senate in 1934, against the Postmaster-General. After a one-week trial in the Senate floor (presided by the Vice-President of the United States, acting as Senate President), the Postmaster-General was found guilty and sentenced to 10 days imprisonment.

The Postmaster General had filed a petition of Habeas Corpus in federal courts to overturn his arrest, but after litigation, the US Supreme Court ruled that Congress had acted constitutionally, and denied the petition in the case Jurney v. MacCracken, 294 U.S. 125 (1945). <1>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempt_of_Congress
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Thank you. Now,

WHY THE HELL ARE WE NOT DOING THIS?

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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. That may be where they're headed. Conyers mentioned "Inherent Contempt" the other day.
Maybe they're making sure all their ducks are in a row and all procedures are followed? I HOPE they are anyway.
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #38
47. Inaction, IMHO, can be construed as complicity.
If we were headed towards a constitutional crises, this is it. It is time to act Congress.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #47
53. TOTALLY AGREE, BD12! If they don't do something SOON, they will be powerless.
Edited on Fri Jul-13-07 11:45 AM by in_cog_ni_to
I REALLY don't think they'll let that happen.
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #34
129. maybe they don't know about it? maybe they think WE don't know? n/t
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #32
54. Conyers has already indicated his intent to head this way by declaring Miers in inherent contempt
it's just a deliberate parliamentary strategy and will take a while to get rolling.
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jeffhoo Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #32
146. one question: if the president of the senate is cheney ...
Edited on Fri Jul-13-07 11:22 PM by jeffhoo
isn't that a monkey wrench in the trial that would result in the inherent contempt move (per the quote below)?

"After a one-week trial in the Senate floor (presided by the Vice-President of the United States, acting as Senate President), the Postmaster-General was found guilty and sentenced to 10 days imprisonment."

can cheney make a parliamentary move to shut down the trial or is keeping it afloat regulated by floor votes? here's hoping this is not an obstacle.
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LastLiberal in PalmSprings Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #30
135. If Congress arrests HM, it'll be an "Elian Gonzalez" photo-op for the WH
The photo of the guy in full SWAT gear reaching for the boy is the image that is burned into everyone's mind. Unless they have a "little person" on the Sergeant of Arms staff, any person Congress sends to arrest HM will tower over her (and you can be sure she'll be dressed to appear like a 'damsel in distress') and the resulting photo/video will be shown over and over again on MSM. Those bad old Democrats -- they arrested someone who could be your grandmother.

And what if * decides to use the U.S. Marshalls to physically defend HM from arrest? I don't think there's anything he wouldn't do to increase his power and further weaken the Congress.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #135
155. I am sure there
are some petite women marshalls who can take her into custody. I don't think she would resist. A good idea to put into the judiciary committees head perhaps?
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Hun Joro Donating Member (511 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
31. Kick
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volstork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
33. K&R
When is Congress going to get off their collective asses and save this democracy?
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
35. This is make it or break it time for Congress, imo
If Congress doesn't use ALL the tools given them to rein in the rogue administration then they will lose those same tools and, by absence of action, reduce Congress to exactly what bush said they were yesterday. A rubber stamp to be used only to fund his priorities.

There is a saying in bargaining when it comes to rights in contracts which, imo, relates to this issue as well and that is:

USE IT OR LOSE IT!
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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
36. K and R
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
40. Are we looking at a Constitutional crisis?
I hate that I can even think this, but if this goes to this SCOTUS--yikes.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. Bush's solution: eliminate the Constitution, hence no "Constitutional crisis"
I'm more than a little worried about this. With two more Bush sycophants on the Court, who knows how this will play out...
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. My thinking exactly. This is scary, but too complicated for most to follow.
In a nation of sound bites, how to make the public understand? Especially with our Bush-enabling media?

At least in watergate, the press took it's fourth estate role very seriously.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #43
59. “Stop throwing the Constitution in my face,” “It’s just a goddamned piece of paper!”
GOP leaders told Bush that his hardcore push to renew the more onerous provisions of the act could further alienate conservatives still mad at the President from his botched attempt to nominate White House Counsel Harriet Miers to the Supreme Court.

“I don’t give a goddamn,” Bush retorted. “I’m the President and the Commander-in-Chief. Do it my way.”

“Mr. President,” one aide in the meeting said. “There is a valid case that the provisions in this law undermine the Constitution.”

“Stop throwing the Constitution in my face,” Bush screamed back. “It’s just a goddamned piece of paper!”

I’ve talked to three people present for the meeting that day and they all confirm that the President of the United States called the Constitution “a goddamned piece of paper.”

Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, while still White House counsel, wrote that the “Constitution is an outdated document.”


http://www.democrats.com/node/7110
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #59
64. Jaw-dropping. I so don't want to believe it, but with this cabal.
"It's just a goddamned piece of paper."

:cry: for my son.
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AlGore-08.com Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #40
45. I personally think that's the plan - - to force the issue to the SCOTUS
It's settled law that the Congress can subpoena witnesses and charge them with contempt or inherent contempt if they fail to comply. It's settled law that the courts have no roll in this process.

However, a settled law can be challenged in court. It's up to the court to decide whether a law suit submitted to it has enough merit to be heard, or lacks merit and should be dismissed. I think that the Smirk admin will file one of the following law suits:

1.) Contempt of Congress has been accepted as an implied power of Congress, so they will argue that Contempt of Congress is not really a power of the legislature so therefore the subpoena is meaningless.

2.) The subpoena does not meet the standards set under Wilkenson v The United States (1961) and therefore it is legally insufficient therefore Harriet Myers is in the clear for ignoring the subpoena.

3.) That the ruling given in Eastland v United States Servicemen's Fund (1975) was unconstitutional (for some bizarre, totally bogus reason) therefore the Supreme Court should revisit whether courts can intervene when Congress subpoenas someone and/or overturn contempt citations.

4.) Something so whacked out it doesn't occur to most people and seems ludicrous when argued before the Supreme Court but ends up being used as the basis of the Court's ruling.

with the expected result that the Supreme Court will rule 5-4 in favor of the Bush admin's argument that the Constitution really set up a Unitary Executive with two powerless advisory branches.

If that happens, that will be a real Constitutional Crisis. Pelosi and Reid - - and the Congressional Democrats running for President - - will have to find someway to assert the power of the Legislative branch that will have enough support to be enacted. Or the nature of our country will be changed forever.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #45
97. Would that do it?
If SCOTUS rules that the pResident has ultimate, imperial powers and that Congress has no recourse or powers against him and his minions, will the people rise up, take the SCOTUS traitors out of their chambers and hang them in the street?


.
.


Naw, American Idol is on....


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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #45
103. THAT would not simply be a "Constitutional" crisis; THAT would be a REVOLUTIONARY crisis.
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
41. I just e-mailed this article to the House Judiciary Committee...
We all need to contact John Conyers and impress upon him the importance of doing this. This is a fight that Congress needs to win to save our democracy.

It's time to quit pussy-footing around with these assholes.

It's also time to impeach Gonzo, Darth, and the Chimp.
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ninkasi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
46. This is an extremely important post
Conyers would do well to follow Dean's excellent advice. K&R.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
48. Kicking (and marking for MY DU; beats bookmarking!) nt
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
49. Bottom line. If Congress rolls on this. I'm done. Our form of gov't is done.
and if people don't wake the fuck up and take to the streets, any hope of holding anyone accountable from that point forward will be nothing more than a grand parlor game.

I hold my breath and wait to see if democracy is really all that it's cracked up to be.

Next week, we either still have a nation of laws or we will have spiraled into quasi-fascism.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #49
68. Agree.....and...they Already KNOW what can be done...they have their own legal experts
yet...they seem to stall...call for votes...send subpoenas that they know won't be honored and leave us all dithering about the next step.

We shouldn't have to send Congress John Dean's blog on this. They have all the legal expertise they need at their fingertips.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Here's a thought...
if they roll on miers, I'm sending pelosi some black roses.
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Misskittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
50. K & R n/t
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
52. Years ago Cheney stated outright that presidential powers are too weak.
Dean is right on the money here: "In short, the Bush White House is not bluffing with this act of defiance. Rather, the White House truly wants to test, and attempt to expand, presidential power."
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. November 1987...Dick Cheney's words:
November 1987
Congressman Richard Cheney was the ranking Republican on the congressional committee investigating the Iran-contra affair, in which Reagan administration officials secretly diverted the proceeds of arms sales to Iran to fund the contras in Nicaragua, who were fighting to oust the left-wing government. Below are excerpts from the section of the committee's minority report on presidential power, which Cheney and his staff authored.

"Judgments about the Iran-Contra Affair ultimately must rest upon one's views about the proper roles of Congress and the President in foreign policy. ... hroughout the Nation's history, Congress has accepted substantial exercises of Presidential power -- in the conduct of diplomacy, the use of force and covert action -- which had no basis in statute and only a general basis in the Constitution itself. ... uch of what President Reagan did in his actions toward Nicaragua and Iran were constitutionally protected exercises of inherent Presidential powers. ... he power of the purse ... is not and was never intended to be a license for Congress to usurp Presidential powers and functions.
I think you have to preserve the prerogative of the President in extraordinary circumstances not to notify the Congress at all.

...

"The boundless view of Congressional power began to take hold in the 1970's, in the wake of the Vietnam War. The 1972 Senate Foreign Relations Committee's report recommending the War Powers Act , and the 1974 report of the Select Committee on Intelligence Activities (chaired by Senator Frank Church and known as the Church Committee), both tried to support an all but unlimited Congressional power by invoking the "Necessary and Proper" clause. That clause says Congress may 'make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department of Officer thereof.' The argument of these two prominent committees was that by granting Congress the power to make rules for the other departments, the Constitution meant to enshrine legislative supremacy except for those few activities explicitly reserved for the other branches.

"One must ignore 200 years of constitutional history to suggest that Congress has a vast reservoir of implied power whose only limits are the powers explicitly reserved to the other branches. ... The Necessary and Proper clause does not permit Congress to pass a law usurping Presidential power. A law negating Predidential powers cannot be treated as if it were 'necessary and proper for carrying' Presidential powers 'into Execution.' To suggest otherwise would smack of Orwellian Doublespeak.

...

"Justice Louis D. Brandeis ... wrote that the 'doctrine of separation of powers was adopted by the Convention of 1787, not to promote efficiency but to preclude the exercise of arbitrary power.' His statement has been accepted in some Congressional quarters as if it holds the force of conventional wisdom, but it misses half of the historical truth.

"The fallacy of Brandeis' statement becomes apparent when one considers the defects of the U.S. Government before the Constitution. The Constitutional Convention, among other things, was taking the executive from being under the legislature's thumb, not the legislature from being under the executive's. After suffering through the Articles of Confederation (and various state constitutions) that had overcompensated for monarchy, the 1787 delegates wanted to empower a government, not enfeeble it. Brandeis was partly right to point out that the Framers did not want power to be used arbitrarily, and that checks and balances were among the means used to guard against arbitrariness. But the principles underlying separation had to do with increasing the Government's power as much as with checking it.

...

"In its 1973 hearings on the War Powers Resolution, the House Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on National Security Policy and Scientific Developments published a list of 199 U.S. military hostilities which occurred abroad without a declaration of war. (The five declarations of war in the Nation's history were for the War of 1812, Mexican War, Spanish-American War, World War I, and World War II.) ... Of the 199 listed actions, only 81 could be said under any stretch of the imagination to have been initiated under prior legislative authority. ... That leaves an extremely conservative number of 118 other occasions without prior legislative authorization.

...

"During the country's first century, Presidents used literally hundreds of secret agents at their own discretion. ... The Presidents were simply using their inherent executive powers under Article II of the Constitution. For the Congresses that had accepted the overt presidential uses of military force summarized in the previous section, the use of Executive power for these kinds of covert activities raised no constitutional questions.

...

"In short, Presidents exercised a broad range of foreign policy powers for which they neither sought nor received Congressional sanction through statute. This history speaks volumes about the Constitution's allocation of powers between the branches. It leaves little, if any, doubt that the President was expected to have the primary role of conducting the foreign policy of the United States. Congressional actions to limit the President in this area therefore should be reviewed with a considerable degree of skepticism. If they interfere with core presidential foreign policy functions, they should be struck down. Moreover, the lesson of our constitutional history is that doubtful cases should be decided in favor of the President."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/themes/ownwords.html
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #56
106. I'd like to suggest pre-emptively that no DU'er mourns the eventual passing of The Dick.
He is evil personified, a Hitler wannabe, or maybe a Himmler, eager for others' deaths but too squeamish to get involved personally.
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rumpel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
55. I hope Conyers heeds his advice
The members of congress are supposed to represent the People and not a President!

.... Republicans embarrassed themselves as badly as did former White House aide Sara Taylor -- who kept telling the Senate Judiciary Committee, when she did honor a similar subpoena, that she had taken an oath to uphold the President, rather than the Constitution. House Republicans appear to have taken the same oath.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
57. Great post. It's no longer business as usual.
K & R
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Melinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
58. K&R
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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
60. It's called "Inherent Contempt" And Congress must invoke it.
Edited on Fri Jul-13-07 12:18 PM by yodermon
from wiki:
"Inherent contempt

Under this process, the procedure for holding a person in contempt involves only the chamber concerned. Following a contempt citation, the person cited for contempt is arrested by the Sergeant-at-Arms for the House or Senate, brought to the floor of the chamber, held to answer charges by the presiding officer, and then subject to punishment that the House may dictate (usually imprisonment for punishment reasons, imprisonment for coercive effect, or release from the contempt citation.)"

on edit: link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempt_of_Congress
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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
61. "raises questions about whether the Justice Dept would prosecute senior administration officials"
This is one reason why Bush will keep Alberto Gonzalez -- he needs the head of the Justice Department to be a political lackey instead of an actual advocate for justice.
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Lugnut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
62. K&R
This is a must read from John Dean.
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tex-wyo-dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
63. K&R
Yet one more of a myriad of reasons * and Cheney need to be impeached pronto!
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
65. Oh please, please god, gods, please let congress understand
that dean understands what is going on and takes his well reasoned advise.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. And just how grave the situation is. nt
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #67
118. Amen to that addition
Edited on Fri Jul-13-07 05:31 PM by ooglymoogly
too scary, what is going on in this once great country?
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cui bono Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
70. EVERYONE PLEASE WRITE DELEGATES, AND HOUSE, SENATE AND COMMITTEE LEADERS!!!
Drafting letter to send to my delegates, house and senate leaders and committee leaders now.



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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Yep--the president wants to force this issue. Already done a few and I won't stop now.
:patriot:
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
72. Pursuing this would require just as much time as an impeachment, would it not?
Why not skip the pursuit of the individual cases, combine them all into one complaint, & go for the impeachment.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. Because Bush is setting this up for a SCOTUS challenge, as Dean foresees it.
He literally wants to neuter Congress. Read the entire article and it makes it clearer.

That's why I say upthread that this could become a Constitutional crisis. Impeaching him WON;T stop this from occurring. I want impeachment, but this is a much bigger worry right now.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #72
137. of bushitler dick and gonzo.
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trashcanistanista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
73. Inherent Contempt baby, bring it on!
:dem:
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wiggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
74. Kudos to John Dean. He saw what these guys were up to EARLY on and was
not afraid to speak and write about it honestly. Worse than Watergate was one of my first GWB era political reads (the first was Price of Loyalty) and I wish he could appear more on MSM.

He has my respect and best wishes for his once-damaged Karma.
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KAT119 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
75. K&R! Thank you!!....
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Prisoner_Number_Six Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
77. Nothing's going to happen, and nobody's going to speak out.
He's right- the conclusion is foregone.
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
80. I keep agreeing with a former Nixon aide....WTF has happened to the world.
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No DUplicitous DUpe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
81. Keeping This one kicked! nt
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
82. Not going to happen in all likelihood
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Meiers to be "arrested" by the Sergent at Arms. If that was to happen, it certainly wouldn't be until after the House tries to go the section 194 (contempt citation referred to US Attorney for prosecution) route that contempt cases have typically followed for the past 70 years. Only if the US Atty fails to act, then there may be a move to use the inherent contempt authority process. Although more likely, the House may try instead to go to court with a petition for petition for mandamus asking for an order directing the US Atty to carry out what the House will argue is the US Atty's non-discretionary obligation to prosecute under section 194.
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KAT119 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #82
86. This Interim appointed US Attorney is Bush loyalist!
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. and if he doesn't act, then the House will try a different route
Edited on Fri Jul-13-07 04:09 PM by onenote
But they aren't going to assume the worst. Just aren't going to.

And just to clarify: the current US Attorney for DC is indeed an "interim appointee". However, he was not appointed to replace one of the "fired" US Attorneys. The previous US Attorney got a better job. In any event, the current US Attorney must be confirmed by the Senate by September 22 (approx) or he's out of a job. So, he's in a rather delicate position if he decides to stonewall.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #90
94. Under other circumstances, you might well be right but....
Edited on Fri Jul-13-07 04:23 PM by Spazito
given that the DOJ has already issued an opinion stating, in effect, they support the bush cabal's position, it is not a coincidence that Conyers used the exact terminology "...including but not limited to proceedings under U.S.C. subsection 194 and under the inherent contempt authority of the House of Representatives."


Link to Conyers/Sanchez letter:

http://judiciary.house.gov/Media/PDFS/Conyers-Sanchez070711.pdf

Here is a link to the article about the DOJs opinion:

Disregard subpoenas, Justice Dept. says
The opinion raises questions over whether Bush officials would be prosecuted for not cooperating in probe of U.S. attorneys firings.


WASHINGTON — In a broadly worded legal opinion, the Justice Department has concluded that President Bush's former top lawyer, and possibly other senior White House officials, can ignore subpoenas from Congress to testify about the firings of U.S. attorneys.

The three-page opinion raises questions about whether the Justice Department would prosecute senior administration officials if Congress voted to hold them in contempt for not cooperating with the investigation into the firing last year of eight top prosecutors.

The opinion was prepared this week by the department's Office of Legal Counsel, in response to questions from former White House Counsel Harriet E. Miers, who was subpoenaed to testify today before the House Judiciary Committee. Miers told the panel in a letter faxed Tuesday night that she would not appear, citing the Justice memo and advice from the White House.

Under the law, the U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia decides whether to pursue contempt of Congress cases. Though that official can exercise independent judgment, some legal experts said it might be hard to ignore the opinion from the legal counsel office, whose decisions are often viewed as controlling throughout the federal government.

more

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-usattys12jul12,0,2659732.story?coll=la-home-center

Edited to add: added the link to Conyers/Sanchez letter and to quote exactly the wording related to inherent contempt.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #82
93. That's a waste of time. YOU and I and CONGRESS all know the D.C. U.S. attorney
Edited on Fri Jul-13-07 04:16 PM by in_cog_ni_to
isn't going to find in favor of Congress. Taylor was also a RECESS APPOINTMENT by GONZO. Congress isn't going that route. It is a complete waste of time and they know that. They've been dealing with Gonzo and his lies for how many months now?




Jeffrey A. Taylor


Jeffrey A. Taylor was appointed interim U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia by Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales on September 22, 2006. He was sworn in and took office on September 29, 2006.

From 2002 to 2006, Mr. Taylor served as Counselor to Attorney Generals John Ashcroft and Gonzales, where he handled a broad array of matters, including oversight of the Department’s national security, terrorism, and criminal litigation and policy, as well as the operations of the Department’s law enforcement components.

Mr. Taylor served as an Assistant U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of California from 1995–1999, where he prosecuted a variety of criminal matters, including international drug trafficking organizations. From 1999-2002, Mr. Taylor served as Counsel to the U.S. Senate’s Committee on the Judiciary, working on issues including criminal law, terrorism, and national security.

Mr. Taylor began his legal career as a law clerk to the Honorable John C. Mowbray, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Nevada, from 1991–1992, and then worked for three years in private practice. He obtained his Juris Doctor degree from Harvard Law School and his Bachelor of Arts degree from Stanford University. Mr. Taylor, and his wife, Marcia Taylor, are residents of the District of Columbia.

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/dc/US_Attorney/index.html

Inherent contempt

Under this process, the procedure for holding a person in contempt involves only the chamber concerned. Following a contempt citation, the person cited for contempt is arrested by the Sergeant-at-Arms for the House or Senate, brought to the floor of the chamber, held to answer charges by the presiding officer, and then subject to punishment that the House may dictate (usually imprisonment for punishment reasons, imprisonment for coercive effect, or release from the contempt citation.)

Concerned with the time-consuming nature of a contempt proceeding and the inability to extend punishment further than the session of the Congress concerned (under Supreme Court rulings), Congress created a statutory process in 1857. While Congress retains its "inherent contempt" authority and may exercise it at any time, this inherent contempt process was last used by the Senate in 1934, against the Postmaster-General. After a one-week trial in the Senate floor (presided by the Vice-President of the United States, acting as Senate President), the Postmaster-General was found guilty and sentenced to 10 days imprisonment.

The Postmaster General had filed a petition of Habeas Corpus in federal courts to overturn his arrest, but after litigation, the US Supreme Court ruled that Congress had acted constitutionally, and denied the petition in the case Jurney v. MacCracken, 294 U.S. 125 (1945). <1>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempt_of_Congress
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #93
101. and if he does, then they will try something else
Shout if you want, but the reality is that the House isn't going to assume anything as the basis for taking a step that hasn't been taken for 70 years. They will make the repubs be the one's forcing the issue. Doing so guts the opportunity for the repubs to try to distract the issue by saying that the Democrats don't want to follow the regular order that has been followed for 70 years. If the Democrats follow the typical process and a repub US Atty stops it from moving forward, it makes it a lot easier to go the inherent contempt route.

I'm not saying whether this is the right strategy or not, I'm just saying its the way it will happen. Bank on it.
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #101
128. I greatly admire your analytical skills
Bush is making it all the easier for Democrats by stopping the Justice Department right away.

For the political side of this, I hope the Democrats keep drawing parallels between Bush and Nixon, there are many, and also use repetition to convince the public that Bush puts himself above the law. Bush halting the USA is a great start toward that case.

I'd much rather see this wind up with a trial on the floor of the House. The media would go wild over it, there would be lots of chances to push the Nixon/above the law meme. Democrats would have a chance to force the Republicans to choose between the rule of law and their party. That would be a great issue for 2008.

I think one thing Democrats have going for them is Bush's belligerence and stupidity. If given the chance, Bush will overplay his hand because he thinks that total confrontation is the only way to go about anything.
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #82
127. Could they also ask for a Writ of Mandamus
that orders Meirs to appear?
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #127
138. The Supreme Court has original jurisdiction no?
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #127
143. yes. And its would be an interesting case
THe statutory provision (Sec 194) states that when the Congress refers a contempt citation to the US Attorney, it "shall be" the US Attorney's "duty...to bring the matter before the grand jury for its action." That sounds like it is not a discretionary matter for the US Attorney and thus it is a matter for which mandamus would be appropriate. Oddly, the kicker could be that the administration could argue that the extraordinary writ of mandamus is not necessary because the Congress has the alternative of inherent contempt (by-passing the courts) available. Of course, for the administrative to invite the use of inherent contempt authority against itself would be a rather foolish move.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
88. K & R
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
89. This is the game plan............
kick...it's a keeper!
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pberq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 04:10 PM
Original message
Kick & Nominated
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
92. You Got It
K&R

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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
95. YOU WANT THE WH'S ATTENTION?!!! THROW MIERS IN JAIL
Until she cooperates under inherent contempt. DOJ NOT necessary. Send the Sargeant at Arms w/ the Capitol police, cuff her and throw her into a cell. That will most assuredly get their attention. Then move on down the line: Gonzo, you're next, etc. etc.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
96. Then what?
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #96
98. Then Miers Rots In A Cell Until She Cooperates AND You Move On To The NEXT
Edited on Fri Jul-13-07 04:19 PM by Beetwasher
Person and threaten them w/ the same. Then throw THEM in a cell when they defy the subpoena (Rove anyone?). Lather, rinse, repeat.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #98
99. We'll see. They don't blink, we do.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. Heh, We'll See, You Don't Know Conyers Very Well It Seems
Edited on Fri Jul-13-07 04:24 PM by Beetwasher
I have a feeling there will be no blinking by Conyers on this. You do yourself a disservice if you underestimate The Honorable John Conyers. He is not to be trifled with. Fer cryin' out loud he's only been in charge of the judiciary for 6 months. He's just getting warmed up.

There is a good reason he dusted off the term "inherent contempt" after 70+ years. That was not done lightly or w/out intent.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #100
102. I know him well. Have an autographed copy of his book
and his emails nearly every month. I would really like to believe people are going to be held accountable. So far, just a few small people here or there.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #102
104. Good!
Then you should know that he wouldn't bring up "inherent contempt" if he wasn't prepared to use it. He's not the type to make empty threats and he is a man who cares deeply about justice. He's being fucked w/ majorly by the admin. and will not back down. Bank on it.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #100
107. Exactly. Inherent Contempt was tossed out as a warning to the repukes. We'll see who blinks first
Edited on Fri Jul-13-07 04:31 PM by in_cog_ni_to
on this one. My bet is on Miers blinking first. She's staring a jail cell in the face??? Ha! My money's on Conyers.:thumbsup:
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. Can a Bush pardon circumvent that?
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #108
111. No
There's been a lot of discussion on Kos about this and the overwhelming consensus is Bush can't EFFECTIVELY pardon it. In other words, he probably would issue a pardon, but it would have the same effect as if I issued it; IOW, none. Miers would be in congressional custody so Congress could just IGNORE his pardon.

As far as the legal grounds for a pardon, he has none. Inherent Contempt would be treated as a civil matter and Bush can't pardon that. It's not a Federal Crime she's being punished or sentenced for, it's a coercive action meant to impel compliance and therefore NOT pardonable. You can rest assured though Bush would ISSUE a pardon, but unless he wants to send armed forces to break her out of a Congressional cell, he'd have no way of enforcing it.

Inherent contempt and imprisonment as a result of it leaves Congress holding all the cards. There's nothing Bush could do short of launching an armed assault on Congress to break Miers out.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #108
113. Can't really pardon a contempt charge.
It's different from having being convicted of a crime. It's an order if you will.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #99
112. Dean's in a position to know the play and the players and he says that threatened
with jail, Miers will sing like a canary.

Read the entire article.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #112
114. Or be another Judith Miller.
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ozymandius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
105. It really is this simple: Act or Die.
Will Congress just become a debate club? Purely ceremonial? Or will its members fulfill their sworn duty to uphold the Constitution?
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proReality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
109. K&R n/t
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
110. K&R.
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
115. K&R n/t
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
116. kick! n/t
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Grandrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
117. K&R
:kick:
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kma3346 Donating Member (423 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
120. K&R
Proud to be #100 to recommend this excellent post.

:kick: :kick: :kick:
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Radio_Lady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
121. Glad to be either #100 (or #101) recommendation for "Greatest."
That's one great article. Mr. John Dean, I salute you.
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
122. If the Democratic controlled congress will not defend the people's house
against Presidential power grabs, we democrats must CLEAN HOUSE and elect only those who who will upheld congressional power - even if it means voting for people of other parties. Blind allegiance to party over country is a luxury we simply cannot afford at this juncture of history. There are so many reasons to impeach and convict this president and vice -- what are the democratic leaders in congress waiting for - an invitation from the White House?

If the Dems don't take Dean's advice on this one -- and push back tough in other areas as well - they will definitely go down in history as the ultimate appeasers; complicit in the final undoing of this grand experiment in constitutional democracy. Are they really so comfortable that they don't want to ruffle some feathers? Are they afraid of their corporate masters? (They certainly don't seem afraid of the people!) Is their timidity genetic? Friends and family who know my historic relationship with the democratic party ask me all the time -- what's the matter with the democrats? Why won't they act? After all, we elected them to oppose this president! I have NO ANSWERS!
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #122
132. The problem with dumping the Democrats
is that we'd have a new Republican president with all the frightening power Bush is creating. It would be far worse than Bush.

I want the Democrats to go through with this and will be very angry if they drop this because of gutlessness. I think though, that if at some point all this becomes an unwise course, we should hear the Democrats out about their reasons.
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #132
148. It's not a matter of dumping the democrats -- those that really are
democrats and will act not only as a REAL opposition to this power grab, but as our defenders. We might get so-called democrats (democrats in name only) but they are ineffectual and provide no actual opposition and thus might as well not be there at all. (And people everywhere are mad as hell at them -- because unlike the repukes from whom they expect the worst -- they prayed the dems would lead and they feel betrayed!)

Personally I have been goaded into continuing to work for and support democrats because of the fear of getting republicans. But we end up with repukes anyway -- and the democrats just stand mute. We have to build a real People's party -- I am not against taking over the apparatus of the democratic party -- if that's possible. But too often we are sabotaged from within. I'd like them to move aside so real small d democrats can take over and fight -- and quit getting in our way!
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
123. Harriet Myers and we definitly need to ask Sara Taylor more questions...!
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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
124. I'm getting excited.
Kick for more eyes to see.
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Diane R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
125. Excellent.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
130. Will the bushregime have its Blackwater thugs KILL anyone who tries to arrest Miers?
Maybe THAT'S the confrontation he's looking for.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
131. Sandra Day O'Connor. Do you see what you have done?
Impeachment. Ultimately, that is where this will end. And the crisis we are in as a nation could have easily been prevented by one lone woman: Sandra Day O'Connor.

Impeachment has been inevitable since the Supreme Court appointed Bush in 2000. The constitutional crisis actually began then and has continued throughout Bush's presidency.

I hope that Sandra Day O'Connor realizes what a terrible road she led her country down when she voted in favor of her party rather than in favor of the law of Florida and of the Constitution that dreadful day. She was the swing vote. She had the power to stop Bush. She failed us. She failed her country.

Whether you believe that justice is God's will or the natural course of events, ultimately justice will prevail. And the justice that will be meted to us Americans for having allowed our precious values, our democracy to be trampled by these fanatics will be very harsh. Every American will pay the price for these Bush years. Look at our present situation. We owe, not just as a nation, but as individuals, for the cost of the tax cuts and the War in Iraq. Our national finances are ruined. The dollar is in decline and could even lose its position as the internationally accepted currency of choice. We have lost the respect of our most valued foreign friends. We have lost many of our most important civil rights. And, to our military, which is in theory superior to any in the world, is being defeated in a seemingly interminable war resulting in great damage to its deterrent power.

Sandra Day O'Connor, that is your legacy. You owe the whole country an apology.

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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
133. I think it's time Democrats hired Dean as an advisor.
eom
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mile18blister Donating Member (460 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
134. This is it, folks.
If the Dems can't or won't force Miers to respond to a subpoena, then it's over. Congress might as well just shut down and save the country the $$$.

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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
136. For what it's worth.
k&r

-Laelth
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
139. K&R
This ain't no intern talking.
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unkachuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
140. kick....n/t
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young_at_heart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
141. Officials are absolutely immune from compelled Congressional testimony
That statement alone is pretty scary!
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ninkasi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
142. VERY important
K&R....
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
144. ...
:kick:
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
145. This Explains A Lot... The White House WANTS This Fight !!!
And Justice Kennedy... the fate of this republic might just end up in YOUR lap!

:mad:
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #145
160. Exactly--he wants to force this issue beyond Congress.
And "poor little Harriet" is a perfect stooge in his game. I wonder if she knows he's used her like a hollerback girl lo these many times.
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Miss Chybil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
147. K/R nt
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jannyk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-13-07 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
150. kick
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vanlassie Donating Member (826 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
151. kick
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kaygore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
152. This is critical! Congress must fight and must put her in jail if necessary
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Kablooie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 01:27 AM
Response to Original message
153. This could be the point where the dictatorial coup would actually become offical law.
If our Congress doesn't attack this with everything they've got, our government will offically start to become a dictatorship. Legally!!

We are on the verge of actually losing our country here to the evil empire.

It's as fantastical as 9/11 was. We are living a Hollywood movie.

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Kablooie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
154. Dean mentioned that Repubs aren't thinking of what this means if a Dem wins the presidency.
Edited on Sat Jul-14-07 01:35 AM by Kablooie
The White House has certainly considered what this would mean if a Democrat won the presidency.

This being the case, there is no way they would push this agenda if they thought there was any chance of a Democrat becoming president.

SO ... THEY PLAN TO HOLD ONTO THE PRESIDENCY NO MATTER WHAT.

ELECTIONS WILL BE POSTPONED, OVERTURNED OR CANCELLED IN 2008, MARK MY WORDS.

It's the only thing that makes sense based on how they are acting.

We will NOT! have a Democratic president in 2009. Bush or other Repubs will hold onto it!!!!

The only way to save the country is IMPEACH the assholes out before the election!

If we don't, we are truly doomed.
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 02:35 AM
Response to Original message
156. K and R
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 03:36 AM
Response to Original message
157. WHAT WAS DONE TO SUSAN MCDOUGAL????????
TO PUT HER IN JAIL?? I DON'T REMEMBER..

FLY
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #157
158. The Woman Who Wouldn't Talk by McDougal
The Woman Who Wouldn't Talk by McDougal

Throughout this political scandal-of-the-century, Starr's office remained convinced that Susan McDougal held the key to information that would incriminate ...

http://www.thehuntingofthepresident.com/mcdougal.html

Amerika is in crisis!
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 06:19 AM
Response to Original message
159. I'd like to thank all of the Democrats......
who "kept their powder dry" during the confirmation hearings and votes for Alito and Roberts. They saw no problems on the horizon by allowing those two Reich-Wing zealots to sit on The Supreme Court. Nope, they're just two ordinary American guys using nothing but fairness and non-partisan objectives as guidelines for their judicial decisions. :sarcasm:

Kept their powder dry. Yep, that worked out very well, didn't it? :grr: :banghead: :grr: Is there even a real opposition party in this country anymore? Sure doesn't seem like it.
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onecent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
161. kick
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jeffhoo Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #161
162.  one question: if the president of the senate is cheney ...

isn't that a monkey wrench in the trial that would result in the inherent contempt move (per the quote below)?

"After a one-week trial in the Senate floor (presided by the Vice-President of the United States, acting as Senate President), the Postmaster-General was found guilty and sentenced to 10 days imprisonment."

can cheney make a parliamentary move to shut down the trial or is keeping it afloat regulated by a simple majority floor vote? here's hoping this is not an obstacle. bush and cheney are out of control and are clearly dictatorial.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #162
166. That passage is only explaining how it was done in 1937
not that it must be done that way.

The actual paragraph in the Manual does not stipulate the Vice President must preside over the trial:

Under the inherent contempt power, the individual is brought before the House
or Senate by the Sergeant-at-Arms, tried at the bar of the body, and can be
imprisoned. The purpose of the imprisonment or other sanction may be either
punitive or coercive. Thus, the witness can be imprisoned for a specified period of
time as punishment, or for an indefinite period (but not, at least in the case of the
House, beyond the adjournment of a session of the Congress) until he agrees to
comply. The inherent contempt power has been recognized by the Supreme Court
as inextricably related to Congress’s constitutionally-based power to investigate.20
Between 1795 and 1934 the House and Senate utilized the inherent contempt power
over 85 times, in most instances to obtain (successfully) testimony and/or documents.
The inherent contempt power has not been exercised by either House in over 70
years. This appears to be because it has been considered too cumbersome and timeconsuming
to hold contempt trials at the bar of the offended chamber. Moreover,
some have argued that the procedure is ineffective because punishment can not
extend beyond Congress’s adjournment date.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL30240.pdf

Relevant passage is on pdf page 43.
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1776Forever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
163. Fred Fielding said it all in this statement -
"However, if Congress does engage in a little self-help at this crucial juncture, it can be sure that not only Harriet Miers, but also George Bush, will be forced to pay attention to congressional subpoenas - for the bottom line is that Congress will not need the cooperation of the other branches to enable it to conduct proper oversight."

_____________________________________________________________________________________

To all those who oppose oversight from Government - rules of Military law - And instead feel the private companies, i.e. Halliburton and others are the way to run this country - all they have to do is look at Iraq and the cost of lives and tax payers money that has been thrown to the corporate welfare thieves!

:banghead:
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focusfan Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
164. if he doen't comply with the subpoena's
impeach impeach impeach the son of a bitch
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
165.  Nixon wasn't as stupid as junior. Nixon did not interfere
Edited on Sat Jul-14-07 08:59 AM by 0007
with allowing John Dean to testify before congress when Dean was Nixon's adviser. The situation is the same as junior and raccoon eyes.


junior is surrounded by bad advise and a haywire General.
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jeffhoo Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #165
167. thanks spazito, that clears it up. glad cheney would not preside
over the trial in the inherent contempt trial (if it comes to that).
:sigh of relief:
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #167
169. You're welcome! The Vice President has only one right as
Edited on Sat Jul-14-07 09:48 AM by Spazito
the President of the Senate and that is to cast his vote ONLY if there is a tie, he has no inherent rights beyond that according to the Constitution.

"The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no vote, unless they be equally divided."

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.articlei.html

The above quote is found in Section 3.

Edited to add: The current issue surrounding Miers and inherent contempt is taking place in the House of Representatives rather than the Senate so, even if cheney wanted to try and insert himself into the process, he cannot.

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seafan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
168. Several things are unmistakable as I see all of this unfolding:
1. Bush is spoiling for this fight to force the whole matter before the courts, because he knows his GOP-stacked DOJ will rule in his favor. That is why he keeps corrupt Gonzales in place, no matter the outcry and fury from the career professionals and the public. Bush also knows that "his" Supreme Court will permanently back him up, just as it did in the coup of December 12, 2000.


2. This fight to seize omnipotent power for The Executive reflects a decades-old vow by Dick Cheney to usurp the power of the other branches of government, and to ensure The Executive's dictatorial permanence, cemented into perpetual one-party rule.



3. This robbery of America's Constitutional form of government, its treasury, resources and the silencing of all those opposed can only point to one chilling conclusion:



They never again intend to relinquish power.

Not willingly.

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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #168
170. Bush/Cheney/Rove never seemed to care how their actions would impact RRR congressional chances
and I found it bewildering--and worrisome.

Now I know why--even the congressional bushbots who slavishly follow his every move are a threat to him--and they don't even realize it.

The brain can take all this in, but my heart and soul can't quite grasp that it's real.

I NEVER thought I would say this--but I'm actually scared.

Time to resurrect that old wacko RW bumper sticker with an adaptation: I love my country, but I'm scared to death of this administartion. :scared::cry:
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #170
171. I was just re-reading your Constitution and Article VI says it all
Congress has a sworn duty to act using the tools, including impeachment, to remove those who have violated their oath:

Article VI
All debts contracted and engagements entered into, before the adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.articlevi.html
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Qutzupalotl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
172. Error: You've already recommended that thread.
:-)
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CRH Donating Member (671 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-14-07 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
173. Kick, ... Congress is setting a precedence, that will neuter their oversight, ...
Edited on Sat Jul-14-07 11:38 AM by CRH
The Bush Administration will push this to the limit, as they have already done, and if congress backs down, an unitary presidency free of congressional investigation gains perceived legitimacy through historical past practice.

Since when has congress not had the power to subpoena presidential appointments in appropriate oversight. Bush and Cheney cannot be allowed to win this one.
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