So Cindy Sheehan thinks that the Democrats "started" every war of the 20th Century

[ShaneGR]

Lets go over the wars of the 20th century involving the United States....

WW1: Not only did we not start it, we didn't get involved in it until the last year.

WW2: Hitler started it, we got into it late, again.

Korea: Once again, didn't start it.

Vietnam: WE STARTED IT! It was Kennedy and Johnson.

Panama: Reagan

Gulf War 1: Bush "started it", argument is there that Saddam started it

Bosnia/Serbia: Didn't start it, we stopped it.

Serbia/Kosovo: Didn't start it, we stopped it.

So there ya have it, guess facts don't mean much when you're stark raving mad.

EDIT TO ADD MORE

[Old and In the Way]

1. Eisenhower actually sent the first advisers to Viet Nam.

It did escalate under the Democrats, though...

[babylonsister]

3. ...

:spray: :spray:

[Adsos Letter]

56. true enough...and sent material help in the form of cargo aircraft, I believe...

[WinkyDink]

93. We were trying to support the French.

[bluestateguy]

2. I'm done defending her

Having a son killed in Iraq does not give someone the unquestioned moral authority to say whatever they want without being challenged.

And as for her remarks about the Democrats and slavery, slavery was around in the US long before there ever was a Democratic Party and the Whigs were just as supportive of the institution as the Democrats were.

[babylonsister]

4. Whoa! Yes, her kid will always be dead, and she will always be

challenged. Unquestioned moral authority to state their opinion without being challenged? Gimme a break. Search DU; she is constantly challenged.
As for slavery, I'll leave that to another day.

[ShaneGR]

6. Why not leave it for today?

Which party passed every significant piece of civil rights legislation in the 20th century? By the logic that the Dems are the party of slavery, does that mean that Republicans bear no responsibility for anything they've done since the civil war ended 150 years ago?

[LittleClarkie]

7. The right to be challenged without being told to shut up because we don't know her pain

That's what bugs me.

[babylonsister]

20. You. Hate. Cindy. for whatever reason, that's where you're coming from.

That's okay. Admit it and accept it but please don't rag on her.
She's trying to do the 'right' thing, believe it or not.

[LittleClarkie]

23. No. I. don't. hate. Cindy. But. her. supporters. get. annoying. sometiimes.

One should be able to say, "Dang, what the hell was that?" without being told to shut up. Like "Dang, what the hell was that about us being the party of slavery?"

Kind of like criticizing Bush without having to deal with a rightwinger asking "Why do you hate the president. Why are you a hater?"

There is a difference between ragging on someone or bashing them and offering civilly stated criticism. Cindy is not immune to criticism as a pubic figure, especially if she's going to make statements like she did on Daily Kos.

I don't hate her. But I don't like some of the things she says. That doesn't make me a hater.

[babylonsister]

24. Look at this thread, and your replies. Then get back to me. nt

[LittleClarkie]

26. So, dear, what else do I feel

since you seem to know my feelings better than I do.

Meanwhile, let that poor woman off the pedestal before she falls off.

[babylonsister]

33. Ironically, because she's 'just a mom/poor woman', I have vastly more

respect for her. And there's no pedestal; there's honest feeling from Cindy Sheehan, right or wrong, whether you like it or not. She's brought anti-war advocates to the table and now the 'impeachment' meme. She's not perfect and has screwed up in so many ways, depending on who you ask.
But my feeling is, 'What's not to like?' She's done more than I ever did. But I imagine you'll find something to shoot my thesis down. Have at it!

[LittleClarkie]

37. What thesis? You stated how you feel. It's cool.

I just don't think anyone is above criticism is all.

[Yukari Yakumo]

127. Counterpoints

1. The "mom/poor woman" argument isn't respect. It's pity. Two entirely different things. Nor does it make her more qualified on the issues than the next woman.

2. You claim that "there's no pedestal" is garbage. All anyone has to do is notice that you're avoiding the questions about Cindy's associating the Democratic Party with slavery. To respond to that would require you either knock her off the pedestal, or to seriously damage your own credibility

3. While she's has done more than most of us has done, how much of it had a positive impact on the issues versus a negative impact. While the first Camp Casey had a positive on the peace movement, almost everything else she has done since then have marginalized the issues and made accomplishing them harder.

[Behind the Aegis]

27. That was easy.

I don't hate her. But I don't like some of the things she says. That doesn't make me a hater.

post #23

[Swamp Rat]

29. I'm sorry...

... so very sorry!

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LittleClarkie]

44. But I don't swallow

:D

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LittleClarkie]

47. Sorry, I can't play anymore. My mom's calling.

We'll have to continue this "discussion" tomorrow. Meet you by the monkeybars?

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[durrrty libby]

113. The name calling in this thread is so unbelievably juvenile

I'm sure the mods will be along to flush the sewage

[proud2BlibKansan]

109. So you don't hate Cindy but you hate me since I support her?

Is that what you are saying?

[Yukari Yakumo]

126. No, you'll explain it now.

As for slavery, I'll leave that to another day.

No, you'll explain it now.

Perhaps it's time for you to take off the blindfold. See things for what they are. And most importantly, realize the one you worship is no saint.

[LittleClarkie]

5. It also doesn't make everything coming out of their mouths golden

As you say, it should be possible to challenge her without being faced with "Do YOU know the pain of losing a child!!!!" for daring to question.

[Behind the Aegis]

12. Great point!

[LostInAnomie]

It does get annoying, doesn't it?

eom

[ComerPerro]

14. got that right.

Additionally, if she is trying to imply that the Repigs are the opposition to the party of slavery, she should remember that (1) parties changed (dems then were not liberals, etc) AND Lincoln "freed" the slaves as a means to an end, economic warfare against the South. Its great that he did it, but it wasn't the grand noble gesture history makes it out to be.

[Swamp Rat]

8. dupe... the other thread has a nifty poll too!!

:)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1291664



Cindy says "hi." :hi:

[Rex]

9. Hey, why is Cindy wearing a shirt that says veterans for peace?

Was she in the military? Maybe she can be swift boated! See!?!?! She wasn't in the military!

Wait...

I need to :crazy:

Okay, better.

What are we talking about again?

[Swamp Rat]

11. I have no idea!

I lent Bushler my brain cell this evening. :D

[babylonsister]

13. SwampRat....

:pals: :loveya:

[Swamp Rat]

16. speak o' da babylon sistah!

:hug: Way'at dawlin'!

[babylonsister]

17. Nah, you have a wonderful picture!

:hug:

[Louie the XIV]

10. I blame the people using her as a puppet mostly

she is just a grief stricken, uninformed individual who has been caught up in things much bigger then herself. She really needed to follow her own advice and step out of the public spotlight otherwise her tragic story will end very unhappily. She needs serious mental health care now and her so-called friends need to realize this instead of continuing to use her for their own means.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MonkeyFunk]

18. that's nice

[babylonsister]

22. Well, I thought about explaining my feelings, but decided not to; if

you don't get my drift, I'm so sorry.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. I Think This Board Can Use A Bit More Love And Understanding

eom

[Behind the Aegis]

30. Thank you, Cher!

;)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. I Thought It Was RFK

Around the two minute mark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPYNb4ex6Ko

[Behind the Aegis]

32. Perhaps...

but...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9h-mIA8tNk

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. You're Taking Me Back To Junior High

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOSZwEwl_1Q&mode=related&search=

[MonkeyFunk]

77. I got your drift

you feel it's fine to crudely insult anyone who doesn't think as you do regarding Sheehan. You're not the only one who seems to feel that way.

[Louie the XIV]

28. Let me guess you're one of her "friends"

Hasn't she raised enough money for your groups? And now you people are encouraging her to take on the enormous emotional and mental strain of running for Congress.

You and your ilk should read the cautionary tale of the Golden Goose.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. I Believe It Is Ms. Sheehan's Pain And Frustration Talking

What confuses me is the attempt by some to defend the veracity of her statements...

The Democrats didn't start every war, aren't the party of slavery, and god help us, the federal income tax isn't unconstitutional...

[Louie the XIV]

38. The problem is with her enablers

If any of us had a friend who was becoming emotionally disturbed and making wild, incoherent accusations we wouldn't encourage them to continue speaking in public and keep making appearances in the media. We would tell them to go home, relax, and get the psychological help they need because we care more about them as a person not a persona.

Unfortunately for Cindy her "friends" care more about the persona and the wealth and attention it brings to their pet causes then Cindy the person.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[noamnety]

92. Ah, if only the women would go back to their homes

and not worry their pretty little heads about serious business like politics ... it's just too stressful for their delicate souls.

First thing tomorrow, I'm going to compile a nice book of housecleaning tips for her, and some jello recipes, and maybe send her some needlepoint patterns.

[LostInAnomie]

94. This is a great example of a non sequitur

No one mentioned gender or gender roles since it has nothing to do with the topic being discussed. If you are going to defend her please do so without floating the strawman of sexism.

[noamnety]

99. Here, let me rephrase:

Ah, if only Cindy would go back to her home and not worry her pretty little head about serious business like politics ... it's just too stressful for her delicate soul.

There, now it's not sexist at all, right? ;)

[LittleClarkie]

101. Nope. Still the same strawman

Sorry

[noamnety]

102. Looks like a pretty straight forward paraphrase to me.

hardly a nonsequitor or a strawman.

"you people are encouraging her to take on the enormous emotional and mental strain of running for Congress."

"We would tell them to go home, relax, and get the psychological help they need because we care more about them as a person not a persona."

Yes, sure. Too delicate to withstand the emotional and mental strain, she needs to go home and relax. They are just wanting what's best for her because they care about her as a person.

They're very concerned about her.

Bless their souls.

[proud2BlibKansan]

111. Wealth?

I am getting wealthy?

Who knew?? :rofl:

[babylonsister]

39. Yes, it 's frustration. If this war is stopped, I'll just bet Ms. Sheehan

will be happy. But she, like me, thinks impeachment might have been the necessary step, and might still be.

[knowledgeispwr]

57. that REALLY confuses me...

It seems like some will throw good sense out of the window to defend some statements just because Sheehan made them. A person can still admire things Sheehan has done without all her words being 'gospel.' The reaction of some of the defenders is what prompted me post a different thread about 'hero worship.'

[Swamp Rat]

21. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[babylonsister]

35. For starters, she needs no mental health care despite what your

'compassion' might elicit. And her 'friends' aren't using her; she's joined 'the battle' again. How long have you been concerned about the battle? Nevermind, I know that answer. Don't even bother.

[ComerPerro]

42. so you are saying she is an easily manipulated tool with no real thoughts or beliefs?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. The Genesis Of Her Charges Are What I Find Interesting

- The Democrats started almost every war in the twentieth century

- The Democrats are the party of slavery

- The Federal income tax is unconstitutional


Those are memes usually associated with right wing groups....

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

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[LittleClarkie]

45. Word to the wise

Your posts would stick around if you'd drop the insults.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

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[Codeine]

69. That's certainly useful. nt

[Breeze54]

72. Oh please! About as useful as your NON comment!

Come back when you have something to say!

[LittleClarkie]

78. Wasn't it though. Cut me to the quick, it did.

I wonder if the people I met at the State Democratic Convention (first time, and as a delegate to boot) knew I was a blatant Rethug. Luckily it seems I was able to fool them.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

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[LostInAnomie]

58. What kind of links or proof could you possibly be looking for?

It's demonstrably false that Democrats have started every war we were involved in the 20th Century. The OP did a pretty good summary. Unless you have some proof that we did indeed start WWI and WWII your post is pointless harassment.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

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[LittleClarkie]

64. Is there a particular reason you seem to be a tad out of control tonight?

?

[Breeze54]

68. I only replied to your nasty, condescending comment.

You are in the lead on that!

You reap what you sow.

[LittleClarkie]

74. Not just me but several people you're swearing at and such

And I was only responding honestly that I don't hate Cindy and don't need someone telling me I do.

[LostInAnomie]

75. No, I'm an adult.

I see it was pointless to try to respond to you as one though. Good luck with the whole aimlessly belligerent thing. It sets a great example for your side.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

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[LostInAnomie]

87. I think all of your posts in this thread have been "revealing".

In that you are totally without substance, just a slow witted belligerence that your are barely capable of articulating. I'm done talking to you. Go find someone that can tolerate your childishness.

[Breeze54]

90. Typical.

;)

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

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[Behind the Aegis]

50. You need a new hobby.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

53. If A Depressed Person Read This Board Tonight He Would Definitely Swallow The Revolver

eom

[Behind the Aegis]

54. I'll direct them to the Pet Forum or Photo Forum...

...great stuff in those forums that can put smiles on the sourest of pusses!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. What's A Tuesday Evening Or Wednesday Morning Without An Analingus Reference?

eom

[Behind the Aegis]

52. You say that like it is a bad thing!

:evilgrin:

[Swamp Rat]

55. Well, I don't agree with the part "Down Down USA! Americans suck ass!"

Nor has "Amerika" "murdered more people than anyone else."

But, give Bushler more time and he might just catch up to Saddam or Pol Pot.

[LostInAnomie]

60. That could be one of the dumbest posts I have read in all my years on here.

I almost feel like I should give you an award or something.

[Cleita]

59. Let's get some historical perspective here.

WWI. We didn't have to get into it but President Woodrow Wilson, a Democrat got us into it.

WWII. FDR, a Democrat declared war on Japan and Germany for good reason. Japan attacked us at Pearl Harbor and Germany had declared war on us.

Harry Truman, a Democrat, got us into Korea. We didn't need to be there, but there was a big fear of the RED SCARE.

Vietnam heated up with first Kennedy and blew up into a war under Johnson, both Democrats. This was another war we could have stayed out of with no consequences but didn't.

Panama invaded by Reagan, a Republican, and hardly could be called a war. It was an invasion.

Gulf WarI, yes started by Bush#1 a Republican.

Bosnia/Serbia. I believe we were part of a coalition that Clinton, a Democrat, committed our troops to in action.

The same goes for Serbia/Kosovo under Clinton.

Of course Afghanistan and Iraq started by Bush#2, a Republican where Cindy's son got killed.

So perhaps Cindy needed to be more specific in saying that the two most unecessary wars were Korea and Vietnam and were started by Democrats and they were. The facts are there.

[Breeze54]

62. You forgot to add Bush invaded Iraq and Afghanistan!

N/T

[Cleita]

63. Well they weren't in the twentieth century, but they are by

far the two most useless, destructive and unwarranted wars in the last hundred years that's for sure.

[Breeze54]

65. You were listing wars by year and missed them both!!

:shrug:

Pretty strange that they aren't in your frontal conscience!

[Cleita]

67. Sorry about that, but my conscience had little to do with my post. n/t

[Breeze54]

70. LMFAO!!!

:rofl:

That's the best excuse I've heard in years!! :rofl:

[Codeine]

71. But the subject

was "wars of the 20th century," now wasn't it?

[Breeze54]

73. No, it's all about how bad Mrs Sheehan is and the USA!!

Get with the program!

[Codeine]

76. No

Cleita was discussing Cindy's comment about "every war of the 20th century." Do try and keep up, dear.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

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[Cleita]

82. Name calling is against the rules at DU. Please review them. n/t

[Codeine]

84. We should probably back off.

Breeze54 is obviously having some form of mental or emotional breakdown.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Codeine]

88. That's "Codeine" and "Heroin," sweetie.

If you insist on being mindlessly belligerent you should at least utilize your spellcheck.

In all seriousness, are you intoxicated?

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Codeine]

91. Codeine is a band as well as a drug.

My handle references the band; however, I almost feel the need for sedation after reading your stream of baseless and mindless invective tonight.

[enigmatic]

96. Great band, too

The Frigid Stars LP is fantastic; "D" is still one of my favorite songs..

[Codeine]

100. "D" really is a great piece of music, isn't it?

Slowcore forever! :headbang:

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

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[LittleClarkie]

106. Breeze. I understand that your son is an Iraqi veteran

but that doesn't really give you the right to go around insulting everyone.

Is this the sort of behavior a mother should be exhibiting? Would you want your son to see you acting this way? Is this how you've taught him how to act?

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

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[DemocratSinceBirth]

112. Respectfully- It Was A Blanket Indictment Of The Democratic Party

The party of Jefferson, Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt, the martyred Kennedy brothers, and Truman... The good those men did greatly outweighed the bad...


I have been careful to not personally attack Ms. Sheehan but I deplore her statements about the party and have questions about her effectivenes...

[Duppers]

95. She said "Of course Afghanistan and Iraq started by Bush#2, a Republican"

and I don't see an edit on post 59!! So, what's your point in asserting that she had intentionally left those off her list?!!?
Since you missed those, don't you think you owe Cleita an apology?

And I not here to defend or to criticize Cindy, whom I hold in very high regard. She's just wrong about some of her points regarding Dems.

[Codeine]

98. Y'know, you're right!

I didn't even notice that. So not only is Breeze54 a nasty, insulting, and rude person, she's also flat-out incorrect.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

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[LostInAnomie]

66. "Democrats started one war in the 20th century" just doesn't have the same zing...

... "Democrats started all the wars in the 20th Century... Oh, and their still responsible for slavery"

I guess it's kinda hard to lay collective guilt for the past sins of an entire party without using hackneyed hyperbole.

[Duppers]

97. THANKS for posting these!

About time someone looked at the facts and stopped yelling at each other.

You were speaking about the "20th Century" alone, otherwise I would disagree with your statement "that the two most unnecessary wars were Korea and Vietnam." If the 21st century were included, of course, Iraq would be added to the list.


And yes, I support Cindy; sometimes she's wrong, but more often she's right!

[Zomby Woof]

119. Let's get some historical accuracy here

Reagan did not invade Panama, Bush Sr did.

But Reagan did invade Grenada, and did prop up right-wing juntas in El Salvador and Nicaragua.

[Cleita]

121. I stand corrected. I forgot about Grenada and mixed the two up.

This was an after midnight post and I should have waited to check facts, but then the thread would have been gone in the morning, sorry, but thanks for the correction. The fact I was trying to make is that it was disingenuous to say that Democratic governments were not in charge of those wars because someone else started them and three of the wars, WWI, Korea and Vietnam were wars we meddled in and really had no business getting involved in as we had not been attacked nor was our national security in question. If we try to obfuscate the facts for party loyalty then we become like them, sycophantic lemmings. The Democrats however, warts and all, have a much higher moral ground than the Republicans ever did even if they fail every now and then.

[EFerrari]

125. Actually, Reagan tried to overthrow the Sandinistas in Nicaragua

and waged a brutal proxy war there. But, you are right about El Salvador.

The Grenada incident was more of a coup than a war. What has always cracked me up -- graveyard humor -- is the bloated rhetoric he used to describe that bit of thuggery.

[rinsd]

124. And those are just a handful of the 100 armed conflicts that killed 160M people during the 20th (nt)

[durrrty libby]

107. poor cindy

[Hissyspit]

108. She's not stark raving mad.

You attack Cindy's hyperbole by being hyperbolic.

God, I'm getting tired of this shit.

[Rydz777]

114. According to the Constitution, wars are supposed to be declared

by Congress. WWII was the last war declared by Congress. Our problem ever since is that on the basis of "resolutions" or less, one Administration after another has decided to police the world. Now that Bush has wrecked our Armed Forces, there will be less temptation for subsequent Presidents to invade other precincts.

[nolabels]

116. Once they finally establish that one world police state they probably.............

will start designating countries as precincts. Well at least in their wet dreams that is


On a little more ominous note and in a nutshell try this on for size

New World Order (conspiracy)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_(conspiracy)

[WilliamPitt]

115. Actually, Eisenhower started Vietnam in '55

That's why some call Vietnam "The 20-Years War."

[Forkboy]

117. Boy,"Deleted Message" has posted all over this thread!

Pretty sure Newyawker is going to have to start a "Congrats" thread in the Lounge for him.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

118. This Might Be A Record

I once had a dozen or so posts removed in one thread a long time ago but now I try to stay within the DU rules...

[Cleita]

122. And it's just one poster.

This poster started insulting other posters and calling them names, which is why he/she got deleted, not because he/she had a difference of opinion.

[JCMach1]

120. She's crossed the Rubicon as far as I'm concerned...

I am very disappointed. :(

[EFerrari]

123. She forgot to add, " and they all started in GD".

lol