Show of hands; Has the country has already made the critical turn against Bush and his PNAC backers?

[Blackhatjack]

I personally believe the country has already made the critical turn against Bush, and there will be no going back --no Republican resurgence.

What do you think?

[Skidmore]

1. Someone tell William Kristol this if it has occurred.

He's still banging the neocon drums of war.

[Blackhatjack]

6. Once Republicans have been driven from office Kristol will be saying the same things...

He is paid by the NeoCons to be the consistent voice of their agenda. He is not going to bite the hand that feeds him, and appearing detached from reality is no problem for him.

[Drum]

2. Drum sez: too soon to tell. nt

[pennylane100]

3. Not yet, we haven't driven stake through heart,

(of republican surge)or shot it with silver bullet.

[bluerum]

4. Not till this gang of corporate whores is in jail. eom

[Solly Mack]

5. Nah...those pieces of shit hide in the shadows and emerge later

and people forget over time....

unless crushed completely...they always come back

it's not enough to be angry now...people must stay angry against the likes of Bush and his ilk

[Blackhatjack]

7. The OP was more about Public Opinion rather than what Bush/NeoCons will do...

I do not see Bush regaining public support before leaving office.

[Solly Mack]

9. Ah..well..in that case..Bush has lost public support

but don't ever count the neo-cons out until you see the tomb stone...and even then, question

[rocktivity]

8. Yes, but the REAL problem is

that Bush and his PNAC backers don't know it.

:headbang:
rocknation

[noamnety]

10. No.

Even on DU, there are a ton of people who say out of one side of their mouth that they oppose the Iraq war, and out the other side of their mouth, they aren't willing to hold anyone responsible for cutting the funds for it. Even here, people act as though they can continue to fund the war - and have a moral obligation to do so. Even here, we claim we are against imperialism, but talk about continuing occupation of other countries.

The attitudes and beliefs of PNAC have become so mainstream that even dem activists support their actions (while philosophically speaking against them). Even if we remove the PNAC founders from power, if their ideas have influenced the opposing party to this extent, they've still won.

[Robbien]

11. No. We are going to be bombing Iran. Our Congress is lining up in favor.

How can you say the warmongers are dead?

[Zorra]

12. We have a long way to go. Republican voters are extremely

ignorant and gullible.

The media can manipulate most republican voters into doing virtually anything short of cannibalizing their own children.

We need to have a war crimes trial similar to the Nuremberg trials and put these anti-American PNAC fascists in prison for the rest of their lives.

A huge problem with cockroaches and rats is that they are extremely hard to exterminate once they become established.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

13. no.

[Bruce McAuley]

14. He doesn't play in Peoria any more...

His appearance in Peoria at a family restaurant was a big flub, and the silence was deafening.
He's lost the people.
Still got the money, though.

Bruce

[Blackhatjack]

15. My thoughts exactly regarding Peoria, and that is telling....

When a President loses 'the middle conservative base' there is no going back IMHO.

I think that Bush and CHeney have decided to rule by edict, knowing they will never regain the public opinion and support they once enjoyed, and they lost congress in the last election.

[teryang]

16. As long as the war is expanding, his power is unaffected

Machiavelli 101. This is the script they have been following since they came to power.

[Blackhatjack]

17. I disagree. Power comes from the consent of the governed ...

... that is why we have checks and balances in a Democracy that do not exist with a dictatorship.

When a President loses the public support, and loses the support of Congress, his power has to ebb in a democracy like the US.

His expansion of the war would have to be with the consent of the people and those the people elected to Congress.

I think the people have spoken in the last election and polls across the board. Bush's power is shrinking, and IMHO Bush is trying to use what power he has left before it completely withers away.

[teryang]

18. As long as Congress acquiesces, his power is intact

He's already expanded the conflict, while Congress dithers. If they don't cut off the funds, nothing has changed.

My personal contention is that no Pentagon budget should be approved. Force them to operate with funding on a continuing resolution that doesn't allow for increased expenditures in Iraq or anywhere else. Then they might put a cramp is his style. Until then, we are headed to a wider, more expensive, and more deadly war. Even a second war. It's a fait accompli until the money is cut off.

There is not yet any check on his power. Thanks for the civics lesson.

[Blackhatjack]

21. Not intended to be a civics lesson, But I am old enough to remember Vietnam....

... once the President loses the support of the people Congress knows almost immediately, and pressure builds for them to act. Remember members of house stand for reelection every 2 years.

Bush has lost the support of the people and you are watching a Congress react to the pressure of the people upon them to change the status quo.

Unless something changes dramatically, Bush is going to be facing constraints on his power by Congress --in fact it is already happening.

[teryang]

22. "...Bush is going to be facing constraints..."

If it is as you say, why are speaking in the conditional future tense?

We must be contemporaries. This situation is potentially much worse than Vietnam. In particular because the 4 or 5 people making decisions in the "unitary executive" about war and peace are deluded in their thinking that there are some constraints binding our strategic rivals and what they can do to punish us for spreading the war throughout the mideast.

I wish you were right today, but there aren't enough courageous representatives among the gutless wonders in Congress to do what has to be done. I identify with your political principles but know an impotent legislature when I see it.

Events and persons outside the legislative branch will force the issue for better or worse.

[Blackhatjack]

24. The phrase was used to denote the change in Majorities in Both Houses of Congress

... and I followed it up by it is already happening.

The Republican members of Congress were held hostage in many ways to the will of the Republican leadership which were kept in line by Rove/Frist/Delay & Hastert. Frist/Delay and Hastert are gone, and Rove has been neutered.

You are seeing Republicans break with the old power brokers of the Republican Party, and that puts Bush in an impossible position to wield power except to the extent that his constitutional authority provides it to him --and by that grant, try to expand it using his 'unitary theory' of executive power.

Congress has always be a reflection of the will of the American people because they have to face the voters at the polls. However that reflection tends to be very slow when the people change their majority opinion of their leaders in office, like the PResident. When Watergate happened, it took years for Nixon's public support to plummet to the level of 28% the night before he resigned the Presidency. In a historical view, that reflection of public disapproval of Bush is happening very quickly, primarily as a result of the last elections and daily opinion polls.

Congress will eventually act. It just takes time.

[teryang]

27. W has already increased the troop levels and is increasing the

...provocations against Iran. Time will tell. The new majority is afraid to take a move that has any real impact. Reminds me of Hubert Humphrey so far.

[magellan]

19. We haven't begun to eradicate PNAC's influence from government

They're everywhere, and will eat away at things behind the scenes long after Bush** and Cheney depart while waiting for their next chance at power. I don't see this changing. There's little recognition of how dangerous they are and nearly zero will to get rid of them.

[Cerridwen]

20. Nope. Against bush? Maybe. The rest?

They'd first have to be aware of the players and their agenda to decide whether they are for or against. I'm not sure there are many people 'on the street' who know PNAC or its players much less their agenda.

I'm not sure too many people 'on the street' would even consider the PNAC agenda that questionable; the ideas of 'Manifest Destiny,' "We're number ONE!" 'America the Superpower' are still floating around out there and many people don't see any of those ideas as bad. We've 'earned the right' to run the planet. 'Might makes right.' 'He who has the gold, rules.' 'Do unto others before they do unto you.' 'Caveat Emptor.' "It's just business; nothin' personal." "All's fair in love and war' (just some examples of 'common knowledge' as represented by our common sayings.)

[133724]

23. The people have made the turn; Congress on the other hand hasn't...

[Blackhatjack]

25. I think Congress has made the turn, it just takes time to bring their power to bear ....

.... as I mentioned in the above post.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

26. Only when America as a whole learns, in full about PNAC. The VAST Majority

doesn't have a single clue.