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Well... This Ain't Good - Lifelong Dems I Know Going Green & Independent

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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 06:59 PM
Original message
Well... This Ain't Good - Lifelong Dems I Know Going Green & Independent
That sick feeling I've had in my gut for the last couple of months has just grown exponentially.

Now this is just a snapshot, and it is in Sacramento, CA, but I usually meet a number of like minded progressives every other Friday at a local watering hole here. And for months before, and months after the 2006 election they were doing their part to support the Democratic election\agenda. And I don't know what the hell has happened, well maybe I do (maybe we all do), but around ten of them (in a bar that holds not many) have either switched registration to Green or Independent in the last few weeks. They are not, they say, necessarily gonna vote that way in a general election, but they are adamant in the Dems earning their vote in 2008. And their disillusionment in the post 2006 Dems is very very LOUD!

I got one HELL of an earful as we compared the news of the last couple of weeks, and it was bitter disappointment and anger that I heard over and over. A friend of mine put it in the starkest terms, actually, two of them did. The best synopsis of what at least those two were saying was, "Hey I've been asked for the last three cycles to hold off going Green (or Independent), because we just need one more cycle, just one more election, to get where we need to be. And ya know what? I'm through waiting, I want to put my energies into the future. Into building a party that actually stands up for what's right."

I argued with them, but I just couldn't bring myself to ask them to wait one more election cycle, all I could get out of them was that they would wait and see how the Democrats did in the next couple of months, and who they nominated in 2008, and then they would make a determination on whether they would vote to hire one of them to run the country.

Frankly, isn't that what we are all doing in some sense?

:shrug:
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thank you for your concern.
Now is just such a good time to make sure we never have enough votes to enact important legislation. Your friends are geniuses, just geniuses.
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. sure let's 'ignore the elephant'
it'll just go away by itself.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Hey... Shoot The Messenger All You Want, Doesn't Change One Fact Of What I Just Reported
Edited on Fri Jun-22-07 07:27 PM by WillyT
Check out the videos from the Take Back America Conference, you'll see the same anger.

The Dems better figure this out soon, or Bloomberg is gonna throw a BIG monkey-wrench into 2008.
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
28. La la la, we can't hear you. Everything's just fine. La la la
:evilfrown:
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Thank You... I'm Truly Worried Here, And Yet HOW DARE I...
Maybe our new party mascot shopuld be...

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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. That would warrent a LOL if it weren't so painfully true. n/t
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #32
101. I think that IS our party mascot, but

has been for a long time. We've just realized it since they've had power in Congress. Before that, we believed they'd change things if they got control. Before that, we thought they cared about the country and its citizens. How wrong we were.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
73. WTF is wrong with the Dems in
Congress, anyway? They must know what the country is saying about them..they know why they were given the majority in 2006(barely). Where's the grit?
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
39. Someone relates an experience, and you criticize? nt
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
59. I must say, I was watching Ahnold tonight on PBS or MSNBC and
he has gone through a pretty amazing transition. He actually sounded like a Dem in some ways and has gone mostly green, although he has 3 Hummers. He explained that by saying he's got them retrofitted for biodiesel and cutting carbon emissions by 80%. He was saying that Calif. is on the cutting edge of carbon cutting technology and alternative energy solutions and it's b/c he and others did not wait for the the feds to do anything (hahaha---esp. with Big Oil BushCo in charge). He is also doing a lot with health care and said the problems are getting worked out b/c he's now on a people-working-together path.

I was thinking, the Kennedys have really worked on this guy and he's listening! :applause:
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NV Whino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #59
74. Do not trust anything Arnold says
He was put in place solely to deliver California in 2008. That's deliver to the GOP. His Hummer retrofit is a joke. The health care plan still involves insurance companies, which is the problem in the first place. Arnie talks a good line, and many people fall for it, but he is not a Dem. He is not green. He is a Republican and will never work for our interests no matter how much he talks.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #59
84. Arnold sucks ass.
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fed-up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #59
96. I'm in CA and Ahnold is a bought and paid for corporate WHORE.
Edited on Sat Jun-23-07 07:39 AM by fed-up
He does NOT give a damn about people-he is spending millions hiring people to draft up his "insurance" health care plan.



note-I DID NOT vote for the scumbag.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. But it's always "Just wait. Just wait". I think that's the problem. A lot of waiting and
not enough payoff.

I still have my hopes pinned to Waxman and Conyers. If it weren't for them and the progressive caucus, I would say that Congress is next to useless.
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ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
21. Wow! If MLK took this lame advice, blacks would stiil
have segregated restrooms across the country. Condi Rice definitely would not be secretary of State.

I'm glad he didn't wait until it politically expedient to challenge the conventional wisdom.

Every four years I have been told, "this is the MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION of our lifetime." I have voted in SIX "MOST IMPORTANT ELECTIONS" and the Democrats and Republicans move further and further to the right.

KUCINICH 2008!

If more people would chuck conventional wisdom as dictated to them by the corporate press and support Dennis Kucinich then we'd see the conversation change.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Yep. Exactly. It's that battered syndrome again. *sigh* But I am right there with you about Dennis.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. Amen.
How dare the left get so "uppity"?? Let's just bow down to the "greater wisdom" of the people whose campaign coffers are filled with corporate cash.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #27
41. leftists wanting to vote for leftists candidates?
it boggles the mind.... :eyes:
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #21
77. You are sooooooooooooooo right!
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #21
120. In our household, it's Gore, Kucinich, or Green.
Our nose is too sore from earlier elections to hold
it again and vote for a might-as-well-be-a-Republican.

Tesha
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hamerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-25-07 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #120
134. Exactly right, Tesha!
Yours is the post of the day in my book! To sum up in an 8 word headline what a LOT of us are thinking is brilliant. Thank you for your eloquence.
dumpbush
PS... And this is from a lifelong Democrat who voted for McGovern....
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VP505 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
4. Its just crazy
to do that, if we are not satisfied with the leadership we work extra hard to get the leadership we want. If the party isn't meeting the needs of the rank and file we work extra hard to see to it that it does. Folding and going Green or some other party with less ability to get things done doesn't make sense to me.
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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
64. You don't quite understand -- they are voting with their feet in final
TOTALLY FUCKING FED UP exasperation. They're not the only ones. I've seen evidence elsewhere that good Dems are changing their registration to Independent. It's a PROTEST vote. It's an effort to finally GET THEIR ATTENTION, or it's a message that they've given up TRYING to get their attention. It's a DIVORCE, not a wish for marriage counseling.

Get it? It's done, finis, over, finished, kaput, all washed up.

The Dems have done this to their own base. They absolutely do not care -- they maybe don't know, but they for sure don't care enough to find out. They've done it to themselves and shall reap the whirlwind.

I for one am okay with that. I'm too tired and fed up myself NOT to be okay with that.
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NV Whino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
5. I'm staying Dem just long enough
to vote for Kucinich in the Primary. Should he will the Primary, I will remain a Dem. (One can still dream.)
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RedCappedBandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. Same with me
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
78. And hopefully one can still vote!
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fed-up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
97. me three-Kucinich speaks for me nt
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #5
102. Kucinich is the only reason I didn't change my registration to Independent

a year or more ago. I'll vote for him in the primary and very likely write him in in the general election. He'll urge us to vote for the nominee but I don't think I can do it.

I don't think the Democrats are going to nominate anyone I can vote for. Mr. Bones feels the same way and we've been Democrats for forty years. The Dems are in more trouble than they realize.
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anitar1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
6. I am not surprised. I am considering the same move.
Have been a Dem for 52 years, but I have one word for what I feel--disgust. Much to my surprise, two friends told me recently they are doing the same.It is a a move I never thought of before 2006 election. Just haven't the heart for the party any longer.
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monktonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
8. Writing blank checks doesnt make sense to me.
All they had to do was keep re-submitting the same bill
and they'd be heroes.
So who really did the folding??????????
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progressive_realist Donating Member (669 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #8
40. Totally in agreement
They were in a perfect situation to make Bush's veto backfire. By making him veto war funding over and over again, it would have made Bush look like he was undermining the troops with his inflexibility.

There is still a chance for Dem leadership to turn this around in September, but now they have to earn back everyone's trust. "Keeping your powder dry" might be wise, but "striking while the iron is hot" is wiser.

In the popular perception, the Dems' key weakness is precisely that, weakness. All they need to do to regain the public trust is show a little spine. Why is that so hard?
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #40
91. why is that so hard?
because they are influenced by corporate cash and not by we the people and what is right. period.
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PDittie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
9. I'm not so disgusted as most
but I can't vote for Hillary if she's the nominee.

See, I'm convinced -- some evidence to the contrary -- that she kills us down-ballot all over the country. Here in Texas, we're just starting to crawl back, and I believe she probably is so toxic to every other Democrat on the ballot that she sets Texas Democrats back another generation.

I'm 48 with type II diabetes. I don't have another twenty-five years to keep fighting the red tide.

Truth to tell, it's really past time for a genuine, third party, progressive populist movement in this country.
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. You may be right about some things about Hillary
But remember Hillary is for healthcare for ALL Americans and she would support Stem Cell research.

I hate to say it but everyone is lamenting about how piss poor the Democratic Congress is doing....I agree they have made some huge blunders....

They are doing something Critical and everyone seems to keep overlooking the fact that they are INVESTIGATING and they are pursuing many, many, may things.....Think about if it was you....there are so many crimes that have to be investigated.....and Congress has to actually do some of the peoples work.

I am angry at them to but as long as the Republics stick together and vote against the bills the Dems propose instead of joining them....not much will get done.....

When you leave the party don't forget to hook up with Nadar he knows all about 3rd party candidacy.....and it's impacts on putting the Republics back in power.
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Jonathan50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. Hillary is firmly in the pocket of the corporate big wheels..
She will never do anything that will hurt the big insurance corporations.

A triangulating witch..
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Phredicles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #22
81. It's not just HRC; it's practically the whole lot of them.
Of course there's a difference between the Evil Party and the Wuss Party; there's just not enough of one.

I've voted straight Democratic since 1984 and I'm beginning to take stock of how little I see to show for it. The only thing that's keeping me around at this point is the pathetic nature of the other options: The Greens' taking Rethug money pretty much torpedoes their credibility, and I'm not aware of any other nationwide progressive parties.
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ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. Hillary care would keep the for profit
insurance industry. That is not for universal health care.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
50. whats the point in investigating ..proving the guy robbed the bank..then he walks scott free??
so they are investigating..who is being held accountable for anything?????????

I am dem through and through..but i am getting to the point of total disgust..
investigate send out well warned about subpoena's after dragging the feet for near ever..the the mtf'ers ignore the subpoenas...how long ago did we hear condi was going to be subpoena'ed?????

and what has happened??

nada...

how long have we heard about rove going to be subpoena'ed?? ..did it happen yet? Like Keith said last night..well Conyers mentioned Harriet meyers..but not a word about Rove...

ya know..unless impeachment goes on the table i am about as disgusted as possible..i don't care if it can't win..impeachment proceedure was brought against Clinton and it didn't go through..but still its on the record isn't it????????

don't we get that stuffed down our throat at every turn?????

impeach the bastards..or our rule of law means nothing!

less than nothing..

and fucking cut cheney off of all funding for the office of vp..now ..today!!

fly
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PDittie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #12
92. I'll pass on Ralph
If he were really motivated to do something about the third party movement then he would groom a mentor. His running all the time has ruined his credibility by exposing his ego.

We're missing leadership all over the place, not just among the Democratic party.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #12
103. Oh, stop, you're killing me! "Hillary for healthcare for ALL Americans" ???

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Newsflash: Nader did not put the GOP in power. You can thank Jeb Bush, Katherine Harris, Choicepoint, Jim Baker, and SCOTUS for that.
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LibraLiz1973 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #12
116. They can INVESTIGATE until they are blue in the face
But there is PLENTY of evidence of crimes that they are doing nothing about.
We've been waiting for years for them to step in and DO SOMETHING. Well, we got them voted in... and they aren't doing jack shit
but rubber stamping MORE OF THE SAME.

I'm sick to death of the excuses and the bullshit. After the primary, I will most likely also change my affiliation.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. You speak the truth Brother P.
I agree 100%. Hillary is toxic to this party.
THEIR candidate isn't going to get them off their collectives butts to vote FOR them, but put Hillary on the ticket and they will ALL rise to vote AGAINST her.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
10. I've come full circle with all this..
shit. After graduating from high school in 1974, I had no intention of ever voting in my life. I was a firm believer that government should be run from. Years later, I questioned my part in the social fabric in which I existed. Somehow as the years went by, my distrust and fear of government subsided, and I got sucked in to the democracy bullshit. After the last 7 years I think of voting like I do the lottery...with very low expectations, but there's always that chance. If the Green or Independent candidate has a snowball's chance in hell of getting elected, I will certainly take that in mind..especially with local candidates. I never say never, but I will vote, and it will never be for a republican.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
11. Just Tell Them All They're Doing Is Voting For The Republican, And Ask Why They'd Do Something So
monumentally stupid. If they try and claim ignorantly that they aren't voting for the republican, then explain to them exactly why they are voting for the republican and want to know why they would want to take part in helping to further the destruction of our country. Ask them how they could possibly feel good about themselves for wanting the republican candidate to win after all they've seen damaged from the last time people were that stupid. Then tell them you can't force them to do anything, but that if they're educated politically at all they'd have to be utter morons to vote for the green or indy.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. OMC... There Are People With Such Convictions, Whether You agree With Them Or Not...
that will not see it the way you are describing it.

They would tell you that you are being disingenuous, because they if fact did not vote republican. It was right there on their ballot in black & white. They voted for the the candidate of the Green Party, or they voted for an Independent, or Peace & Freedom, or Libertarian...

They will refuse to accept the "it's the same thing as" argument. And, they will think they are acting in principles that are higher than that. Hell, many a "seriously" taken pundit (an oxymoron to be sure) has posited that after GHW Bush flipped on his "no new taxes" pledge (among other things), a BIG part of his base sat out that election. Didn't vote Democrat, just merely stayed home. And did so in their minds on principle, and to send the Republican Party a message, even if it cost them the Presidency.

There are Conservatives suggesting that again now because they don't see a true Conservative in the 2008 Republican Field. Case in point: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...

The point I'm making, and what I'm worried about, is the disillusionment, the loss of moorings to the democratic party, and the possibility that just when we had the chance to invigorate and enliven, and attract millions more to our party, we took a turn down caution lane.

:shrug:

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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. They Can Think What They Want But They'd Still Be Wrong And Ignorant Of Reality.
Edited on Fri Jun-22-07 08:04 PM by OPERATIONMINDCRIME
Someone informed of our political reality and consequences casting a vote for a green candidate who doesn't stand a chance in hell of winning; or not voting altogether; is ABSOLUTELY casting a half of a vote for the republican. That's what they're doing. It matters not what name was in black and white on the ballot; it only matters the outcome.

Standing on principle is quite simply dumb if by standing on principle you are actually making things worse. That's why such an act carries with it the utmost of ignorance and narrow mindedness. This is unavoidable.

So if they think they're standing on principle and doing something honorable, then it is our job to make sure they understand that what they'd be doing would in fact just be selfish, stupid, ignorant, of narrow mind, and detrimental to their cause.

If they would choose to do so anyway, then they are no better than those who still support bush in my opinion; as they are willing to hurt the country in the exact same way. Ignorance is dangerous.

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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. Damn OMC... That'll Bring 'Em Back To The Fold....
"Standing on principle is quite simply dumb if by standing on principle you are actually making things worse. That's why such an act carries with it the utmost of ignorance and narrow mindedness."

"So if they think they're standing on principle and doing something honorable, then it is our job to make sure they understand that what they'd be doing would in fact just be selfish, stupid, ignorant, of narrow mind, and detrimental to their cause."


You smooth talker you!

How do you think it sounds... the exceedingly shrill and desperate demands that (my paraphrase) "you must vote Democrat you selfish, ignorant, narrow minded, stupid jerks"? I tend to think it makes us sound... desperate.

:wtf:


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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Well Jeez WillyT, Ya Say It Nicer Than That, But You Politely And Intelligently Explain To Them
that's what they'd be doing. I didn't say you yell at them, but you should be able to sincerely explain to them in a mature and intelligent manner why that's the outcome of their actions.
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #33
85. Perhaps they think that the outcome of their vote is that they have performed their civic duty
to vote for the candidate they have judged, after careful deliberation, to be the person they would most like to carry on the duties of the chosen job.

Or, alternatively, perhaps we should just fuck democracy altogether.
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Jonathan50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-25-07 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #33
132. I'm here listening to you OMC
And you are calling me selfish and stupid and all those other things, simply because we disagree.

The carrot and the stick.

The left has no carrots with which to entice the Dems to their point of view.

All we have is the stick, the stick of withholding our votes.

If necessary I will use that stick.

It's up to the Dems as to whether I use the stick or not.
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Edweird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-25-07 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #29
135. sometimes the truth is ugly and painful, but still the truth.
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #20
56. Those who walk from the Democratic candidate this time....
Will be re-enacting the 2000 vote for that A-Hole Nader.

If after 8 years of Republican rule they can be so myopic then there isn't much we can do to change their minds at this point my friend.

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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #56
75. Buchanan ruined that election as much as Nader, using your logic
In fact 2000 was outright stolen, as was 2004, and the Dems haven't done anything useful to stop that happening again either.

Stop blaming others and start holding your own party accountable.
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #75
99. The Nader votes would of provided a win for Gore.
That is a fact. It never would of made it to the supreme court.
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #99
111. So would the Buchanan/Palm Beach County votes
That is also a fact.
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pork medley Donating Member (262 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
65. sometimes when you don't vote for a democrat,
it just means you choose not to vote for a democrat :)

do you think having more than two parties is too confusing for us proles? maybe we don't know whats best for us?
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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
68. some people might feel it's just as "monumentally stupid" to be
voting for the same ole shit that has gotten us NOWHERE. If you're not going anywhere anyway, why not vote your conscience?

I'm not saying that's MY sentiment -- I'm just tired of all of it -- but I certainly understand it in others.
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wakemeupwhenitsover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
13. Absolutely true story: DH I & were at the local watering hole
where we meet friends for drinks when we go to the coast. Lots of repubs & they start telling Clinton jokes. Har Har Har. I point out that Clinton has been out of office for 6 years & start telling dumbya jokes. (My favorite: Impeach bush, he's blowing the fucking job.) One of the most strident, all-her-life, repubs says she's sitting out the primary & the general. The repubs are going to have to earn her vote & none of them have done it or will do it.

My point is that I find this anecdotal 'evidence' meaningless.

I grew up in a Sac burb. Howdy neighbor!

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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
14. at some point, it's time to start voting for ones hopes, instead of againt ones fears.
otherwise things will never change.
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ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
17. A politician and a party must EARN the support of
the voters. To expect people to vote for someone regardless of who they are only because that person has a D after his/her name is no different than what many Republicans expect. With the Internet and 24/7 news, people are able to learn whether the politician they supported with their vote and maybe their time has turned his/her back on them.

The Republicans managed a filibuster this week. When we the people wanted the Democrats to filibuster Alito all we got were lame excuses.

WORK FOR MY VOTE YOU SPINELESS WIMPS!

I have to WORK for my check, get out there and actually EARN my vote rather than take it for granted.

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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
19. Thank the "New Dems" and the "Blue Dogs"
Prevarication and LIES!

People are looking for alternatives FOR A REASON.

This is not some WHIM of the democratic electorate.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
30. That's for sure, neighbor!
:thumbsup:
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #30
48. You'll appreciate this, Tahiti....
I belong to the local dem club here.
After the midterms, I noticed that
Levin(Sander)received about 10,000 more votes
than Stabenow did. That means that people
were not voting straight democrat tickets.
10,000 people DELIBERATELY voted AGAINST
Stabenow.

At the subsequent (mostly triumphant dem
meeting) some lame-brain got up and spouted
off about "What are we going to do to stop
the GREEN PARTY from getting OUR votes".
The Green Party got only a couple HUNDRED
VOTES.

I said that if Debbie Stabenow had VOTED LIKE
A DEMOCRAT when it COUNTED, then 10,000 more
DEMOCRATS would have voted for HER.

Now, I have to tell you, sympathy was with ME,
almost 99%! People in the "rank and file" are
FED UP. Americans are LOSING GROUND and we KNOW IT.

STATE CHAIRS elected Howard Dean to lead the
Democratic Party. People who participate in
County and State politics are NOT getting rich
in backroom deals with drug companies and
Feinsteinian defense contractors, and WE ARE THE
BOOTS ON THE PAVEMENT that bring in the VOTERS.

I am willing to forgive entrenched dems for past
policies. They needed to do what they needed to
do to get elected...yada, yada, yada......BUT
the ELECTORATE has MOVED ON.

Sander should warn brother Carl about his
latest voting "trends" IMO, I'm not happy
to be writing him care/of the Progressive
Patriot site to tell him that I agree with
Russ Feingold!

:hi:

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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #48
66. It looks like we both cooperated with Russ's latest request to 'inform' Sen. Levin.
I'm in solidarity with those 10,000 ... and voted similarly here in Joe's fiefdom. Debbie got too many 'strikes' (bankruptcy, MCA, etc.) for me to give her my one-and-only vote. I'll be damned if I vote for evil ... even the "lesser of two."

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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
23. As they pointed out, those votes are available..if the Dems stop voting with the Repugs.
As they did when they voted to continue the slaughter by funding it.
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fed-up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
26. was talking to my neighbors this afternoon and they feel the same way...
Edited on Fri Jun-22-07 08:14 PM by fed-up
One set of neighbors are in their early 50's-he is a vet with a new back injury.

Other neighbors are in their 60's, he is a Vietnam Vet w/a number of health (mental and physical) issues.

Both are disgusted with the lack of unity from Dems to END this War now and their refusal to stop funding this war.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
31. And the GOP rubs it's hands in glee
I wonder how much money they're going to secretly funnel to the Greens in 2008.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. I'd Love To Hear Your Solution, But REPUBLICANS Follow Their Party NO MATTER WHAT !!!
Democrats do not, NEVER HAVE.

:shrug:


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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #37
43. Instant runoff voting and proportional electoral votes
The IRV would be for non-presidential contests, the proportional electoral votes for presidental contests.
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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #37
69. Not only that, Republicans cater to their base -- and
Democrats do NOT, tho they used to.
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ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #37
112. The Nazis followed their fuhrer as well
Is that what we want? Blind, unquestioning party loyalty? Hillary does not speak for me, a single woman. She is corporate through and through. I don't forget that she served on Wal-Mart's board of directors.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #31
52. ya know i begged and pleaded with my repug friends to vote dem in 2006..and they did..
because they all want the war over..now they are shoving up my ass every time i see them,.they say..see it doesn't matter who you vote for!!

they are all the same..is what i hear over and over again!! and now get it rubbed in my face..because they believed me and voted dem..and they believed the dems who said they were going to get us out of this war..

now it is not just the dem politicians that look like a liar..now i look like a liar to them too!!

fly
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #52
63. Same here, some of the Republicans in my family voted Dem
for senate in 2006 to shift control from their own party. They voted for their country, not their party and I am glad they did.

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LibraLiz1973 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #31
117. And as they rub PERHAPS THE DEMS SHOULD PAY FUCKING ATTENTION
THEY ARE BRINGING THIS ON THEMSELVES!!!!!!!!

Poo poo it all you want. Blame the voters for being fed up.
The truth is, this is on the Dems. And they need to know
We fucking mean business! We're mad as hell and we aren't going to take it anymore.
Maybe if they got the message, they would DO SOMETHING.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
35. Uh, California? You had a chance to replace DiFi with Cindy Sheehan...
...unfortunately, however, Barbara Boxer had a "come to Jesus" meeting with Cindy telling her to back off.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #35
58. on what alternate reality did this occur? Where Boxer told Cindy to back of DiFi?
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NV Whino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #35
79. Oh for God's sake
where did you get that crap?

Believe me, I wish DiFi was long gone, but Cindy Sheehan was not the answer.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #79
98. Well, now the Dems have shown their appreciation by chasing Cindy away...
Yes, I'll admit I didn't think the Senate was the best starting place for her, but I'd rather have Cindy in the Senate than DiFi.
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #98
115. Oh Bullshit!
Cindy Sheehan became a Democrat for about five minutes so she could noisily stomp off the stage.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #115
129. As if Cindy would have made any traction with the Repukes...
Let's face it. The Republicans have been infected with neo-fascism, the Libertarians are too disorganized, the Greens are well-meaning but still trying to find a national voice outside of Ralph Nader, the Constitutionalists would probably throw a burka over Cindy, and if Teddy Roosevelt couldn't get elected as an "independent," chances are nobody else can. So the Democrats were, indeed, Cindy's best fit politically.
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ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #79
113. Perhaps Cindy Sheehan wasn't the answer
but had she been even in the primary, it would have changed the tone of the conversation. Topics avoided at all costs by the corporatist Feinstein would have seen the light of day.
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NV Whino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #113
125. I agree with you there
I hope Cindy sits back a minute or two and takes stock of her abilities and then runs for some office. My dream is to have DiFi resign (fat chance) and have Barbara Lee run for Senate. Then Cindy runs for the house seat from Berkeley.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
36. You are right, and peoople are pissed
I changed my registration to Indie before the elections and they will HAVE to earn my vote. PERIOD

And for those geniouses going, but, but you want republicans to ... proof is in pudding ok. (or voting records)
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #36
44. I changed mine to Indie
or "OTH" (we don't have an Independent party in Oregon) after the 2004 primaries. Our primary is so late, the nom is appointed before I get the chance to vote.

There is only one reason that I will switch back. If that doesn't happen, I will remain an Indie.

The "if you don't vote for a Dem, you are voting for a republic" bullcrap, is just that - BULLCRAP!
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
38. Being here on the west coast
there are lots more leaning green than elsewhere .

and just cause they are registered green doesn't mean they'll
vote that way .

when I was green I voted for many Democratic candidates .

But this reinforces in me the urge to tell Al Gore to run .
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
42. I can appreciate where they're coming from, WillyT, and we all know why.
I can only hope the Dems will do the right thing come September; if Pelosi was telling the truth at the TBA seminar, they're hellbent on doing so.
We shall see, and hopefully your friends can be convinced this party isn't all bad.
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
45. Your friends are onto something ...
the two-party system is currently dysfunctional. So, be careful who you vote for in the primaries. The winner may determine which party is dies first.

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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
46. going green and indy-what do you expect when you get some corporate shit like clinton as the nom
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
47. Neh neh, Greens & Independents have never been Dems!!1 n/t
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-25-07 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #47
131. Uh, many, many Greens and Indies are refugees...
...from the corporate Democratic Party. So, yes, they have been Dems. They've just been driven away.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
49. here's a tiny little hint
i watched Hillary get booed at the Take Back America conference. The boos were NOT the issue. What stood out for me was how surprised Hillary seemed.

I watched the reaction of Reid and Pelosi and other Democratic "leaders" to the feedback they received from their hideous Iraq vote. I'm sure they understood it "wouldn't be wildly popular". But they seemed genuinely stunned by the reaction. I think they believed two unfortunate themes: 1. it was all about "supporting the troops" and 2. they "didn't have the votes".

Well, neither of those themes represented the views of not just Democrats but even mainstream, middle-of-the-road Americans.

what's the point? The Democrats are really, really, really, really, really out of touch with their own constituency. It's bad politics. It's bad policy. It's bad government. And it's miserable representation.

it better change really, really, really soooooooooon ...
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. but they say it is the fringe that is against what they did ...it seems they don't
get it ..but 70% against this war..is not a fringe!!

if i hear that word out of another dem politican i am going to spit wooden nickles!!

for some reason they think the middle is mainstream and anyone really against this war is "fringe"

yes ...they are out of touch!!

fly
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #49
62. They're out of touch with their own constituency because they repeatedly
IGNORE THEIR BASE. US. The PROGRESSIVES. THE LEFT. HI! US! REMEMBER US???? You liked our campaign donations and our votes well enough. How 'come you don't like what core beliefs motivate and drive us?


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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #62
67. our core beliefs
that was sort of my point. i really question whether they're even familiar with "our core beliefs".

i mean, i think they know we want the war and occupation to end. maybe they think all we care about is impeachment.

when you start talking about things like corporatism or "restoring democracy" or imperialism, I really don't think they have a clue what we're going on about.

in the "screaming at my TV mode", I often find things I hear politicians jabbering about on TV are badly out of touch with the issues they're discussing. they have some pat little speech about working together in a non-partisan way or some nice sounding drivel but they never seem to bore down into the details of the issues. well, perhaps some do; most don't ...

i've always been disappointed that Skinner et al hasn't been able to bring elected Democrats here for some live, perhaps moderated, blogging maybe once a week. if they were concerned about "being exposed" to all of us lunatics, questions or comments could be "pre-screened" if necessary. it would be great to hear them out on their views and it would be great to have them respond to ours.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. That would be a great thing - bringing some of our reps HERE to
talk with us and exchange views. Not sure they're up to it, though...
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. does the phrase ...
"Lucy, you have some 'splainin to do" ring a bell?
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #72
87. Well, Shit, Yeah!
Edited on Sat Jun-23-07 02:09 AM by calimary
That's absolutely what we should be hitting them with. I would LOVE a chance to talk to THEM more directly, as opposed to an office staffer who only relays messages, or some lobbying group, or some Good-Guy group going to Washington to make appointments with them (that they may or may not attend).

So much stuff written about the shock they seemed to register at the Take Back America conference - not realizing how poorly their latest compromise with bush on the war was actually received. Somehow they thought (how, or from whom, I have NO idea) we'd find a way to be okay with the way they caved. Must have been listening to the talking points from the enemy camp rather than THEIR BASE. Time they stepped away from the hoards of "beltway boys" and paid a little more attention to those (of US) who brought them to the dance to begin with. 'Cause from the looks of the messages on this board, and elsewhere, and all over the country, and the polls on Congressional approval, they're alienating a HUGE number of people they're gonna NEED. I for one am certainly open to replacing Nancy Pelosi already. That "IMPEACHMENT is off the table" crap is just that - CRAP - and needs to be FLUSHED. Somehow, she and the rest of 'em just do NOT get that if all of us wanted more people in Congress willing to cave to bush, we could have stayed home so more republi-CONS kept their jobs, or just voted republi-CON in the first place.
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FreeStateDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
51. Solid Dem since JFK but will become indy when Hillary buys the nomination.
Fuck the corporate controlled ruling class, no way will I help the Clinton's milk another 50 million plus out the system.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
54. RUN AL RUN..we need Al..we need him desperately!! eom
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
55. Your friends are too prideful for their own good.
I'm Howard Dean and I'm here to represent the Democratic wing of the Democratic party.

-------

This party this party--I know--this party needs to be about changing America, because only by changing America will we win back the White House.

I want a party that stands unashamedly for equal rights for all Americans.



I want a party that stands unashamedly for health care for every single American.

I want a party that stands unashamedly for balanced budgets and taking care of poor kids and voting together and healing the divides instead of expressing the divides and exploiting them the way the Republican party has so shamelessly done since 1968.



I need your help. I need your help. We're going to change this party and then we're going to change this country, and we're going to take back the White House, and we're going to balance the budget, and we're going to have health care for everybody, and we're going to have an America with its best institutions-- right up to the cabinet that looks once again like America.

We're going to bring hope to America, jobs to America, peace to America. We're going to bring pride to the Democratic party. I need your help. Let's go get it; let's go do it. http://www.crocuta.net/Dean/Transcript_of_Speech_to_DNC...


I too am here to represent the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party and I intend to keep it that way.

:hurts: ;-)
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
57. I'd love another party in the mix but I'd never split the vote.
People who split the vote might as well be voting Republican.
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Firespirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
60. This ripple is real. Thank you.
I posted a long rant in GDP about the Bloomberg maybe-candidacy, and how it is viable only if the Democrats let it be viable.

People go third-party or Independent when they feel that neither party listens to them or has any use for them except as a source of votes and petty cash (I say petty cash because most people know exactly whose cash really runs the show). The fact that such registrations are on the upswing, particularly among people under 35, is not a fluke. It's what happens when we have a bloated, corrupt, corporate-controlled political system.

Bush tells 70% of the country "go f*** yourself" with everything he does. Dems capitulate to him. Those in the party who go against it get marginalized.

The DCCC and DSCC are so tone-deaf that they start making solicitations for money right AFTER said capitulation, and really, truly don't have a CLUE why they get an earful from people.

So many politicians ignore their constituents until election time. The staff are often outright rude.

People who are struggling to make ends meet see figures like $35 million, $26 million, $23 million, etc., raised for '08 campaigns, and feel that they are part of another universe.

Many people are afraid to write LTEs or even blog because of corporate intimidation at work. Their livelihoods are at stake by their speaking out.

The very VOTING PROCESS has become suspect. People often can't even be sure that their ballots, the last voice that they feel they have, will be counted.

The bottom line: Third parties and independent candidacies thrive when people feel POWERLESS. Ignoring the reality, making ad hominem attacks against those who do it, or threatening them with the specter of another RW nut is not the way to go. The solution is to LISTEN to them and ACT on what they have to say, because what they have to say is perfectly legitimate: The system is BROKEN and it needs to be fixed.
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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #60
70. Excellent post
Very insightful.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #60
76. Great Point, Great Post Firespirit !!!
Thank you!

They really really need to take a serious listen right about NOW.

:hi:
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
61. I'm hearing the same thing
and I can understand why they're frustrated.

I've been active since McGovern ran and I find myself spending a lot of time wishing there was still a viable Farmer Labor Minnesota or enough of its spirit remained that the Farmer Labor types could "divorce" the DFL. Sometimes I think that the only thing that keeps me in the party is that in Minnesota it is not just the Democratic party.

You know how Paul Wellstone used to say he was a member of the Democratic wing of the Democratic party? Trust me when I tell you, he was more a member of the Farmer Labor wing of the Democratic Farmer Labor party, as am I.
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HardRocker05 Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
80. can you blame them? nt
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
82. I went Green after Al Gore ran and was ditched at the altar by Senate Dems.
But, that isn't what I want to say. Just beginning with full disclosure.

Here in CA, we've been ignored for years by the Democrats except come fundraising time. All that has changed since Dr. Dean was put in as Chairman. (When I called the Kerry campaign for signs, they wanted me to go pick them up AND to pay for them and in general, acted as if I was a nuisance not a supporter. That should have been a big clue but I can be dense.)

Since Dean has been chair, I had a kid from the DNC knock on my door for the first time EVER. I can't tell you how good it was to have someone from the DNC at my door after years and years of being ignored.

The good news and the bad new is, you ARE the party. That means getting active locally in any way you can. It means no leadership will service you but it also means you can make a difference, you can, with your activism.

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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #82
83. You Know That, I Know That, And More And More People Are Coming To Know That Lately, But...
I worry that the current souring may have a negative effect on activism too.

Sure as hell felt good watching the Take Back America Conference videos, but even there, many a candidate got a first hand view of the simmering anger out there. And curiously, the point of the conference was to push both the party and the candidates in the correct direction.

This is gonna be one interesting Summer, and the Fall might just be revolutionary.

Sorry if that didn't make sense SF, it's been a long day.

:hi:


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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #83
86. Makes sense to me. It's been a long six years.
:hi:
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petunia.here Donating Member (102 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 03:39 AM
Response to Original message
88. BIG K&R
This is the discussion we need to be having if anyone here really cares about the future of the Democratic party.








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Yukari Yakumo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 05:32 AM
Response to Original message
89. Easy.
Tell them if there's a Repug in the WH in '09, don't come cryin' to us.

The problem with the "Dems are cowards" or "Impeach now!" crowd is that they don't grasp the real situation in Washington.

For the IWR, playing the "send the bill over and over" may make good sound bites here, but what about mainstream America and the M$M? We'd get slaughtered there. And national polls mean nothing because the Senate is almost 50% controlled by die-hard Bush loyalists. As long as Bush is the Commander-in-Chief, thinking we can get the troops home makes for a good fairytale. But we live in something called reality, and, until we get a Dem in the WH, they're not coming home.

For impeachment, dream on. As I said earlier, the Senate is almost 50% controlled by die-hard Bush loyalists. And the Dems would get slaughtered by the M$M if they tried to push through Impeachment. For those who'd say the Senators will be compelled to convict, I say you're full of shit. These guys have stayed loyal to the Chimperor for the last 6 years, and they've shown no sign of stopping anytime soon.

Here's what I'd tell those people you described. I'd tell them that they are the cowards for giving up before the war is over. One victory does not win the war. Our victory in '06 is progress, but until we get a Democrat in the Oval Office, the war is hardly over. Getting the troops home will not be easy. It's going to take dedication. It's going to take blood, sweat, and tears. But giving up halfway only lets the Republicans win, and that's something we all don't want.
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some guy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #89
90. Maybe you'll answer this question
no one else ever has.

The Congress passed a funding bill with virtual suggestions as time tables; Bush vetoed it. Why at that point, did not the Democratic leadership say, "Well, we did what the people wanted, we passed legislation to help winf down the occupation, and provided the funding the Commanderguy-in-Chief wanted. He vetoed it. It's up to him to show some responsiveness to the will of the people."

All of the heat should have been focused on the maladministration at that point. If the people complained, hey talk to the guy who vetoed the funding. If the media questioned the Congress, same thing - talk to the guy who vetoed bipartisan funding. He's the roadblock.

The Dems folded. Why?
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #89
104. Sorry... These People Have Fought The Good Fight For A LONG Time...
calling them "cowards" would drive them further away, would justify their decisions, and worse, might cause others to join them.

You cannot be effective by demanding their votes, and calling them names if they don't guarantee to vote Dem. Plus... it's a secret ballot either way. They could just tell you they voted Dem to get you off their backs. I prefer positive persuasion to bullying.

:shrug:


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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #89
128. Oh, Really?
Edited on Sun Jun-24-07 10:55 AM by Toasterlad
I love it when the hardcore, stick-with-the-party-no-matter-what, victory-is-in-our-grasp-with-just-one-more-election types tell me to get my head out of the sand.

WE GAVE THEM A MANDATE IN 2006 AND THEY COMPLETELY FOLDED. Please tell me how the nation is better off in ANY WAY with the Democrats "in power" than they were under the Republicans?

Here's news for you and the Democratic leadership in congress: AMERICA HAS CAUGHT ON TO THE BULLSHIT. Even the red-state morons don't buy the "a vote against the president is a vote against the troops" crap anymore. ALL the Dems had to do was keep sending the same bill over and over until the money ran out. END OF WAR. If you honestly believe that the American people would blame the DEMOCRATS for "not supporting the troops" in that circumstance, than you are just as contemptuous of the people of this country as the Republicans AND the Democrats.

As for impeachment, it is their DUTY to start proceedings, whether they could pass or not. They took an oath to defend the constitution. The constitution says that elected officials who try to undermine it get impeached. DO YOUR SWORN DUTY.

However you may feel, NOTHING is eternal. You may very well wake up one day to find there IS no Democratic party. A million solo voices joined together are a mighty chorus. If you don't believe that a Green party that can actually field a winning candidate for president is ever going to be a possibility, then you are as out of touch as your party. People are leaving in DROVES, and if you want to ignore all the slamming doors and focus on business as usual, then YOU are the coward, afraid to hold your own party accountable for it's self-destruction.
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 07:22 AM
Response to Original message
93. Blaming a loss in '08 on people who
choose a candidate running on a platform based on democracy and humanity for it's citizens is like blaming the Iraqi's for not "taking advantage of the opportunity" handed to them.

I cannot in any good conscience vote for a candidate that will not commit to seeing our constitution upheld and restoring democracy and humanity in this country and around the world.

The democratic party has embraced candidates that have profited from the inhumanity in this country, have contributed to the loss of our rights as citizens, are accomplices to the Iraq war and it's continuation and will not refuse to use nuclear weapons against human beings and the planet.

The democratic party has not fully embraced candidates running on the platforms that were once the so-called values of the democratic party. The values that made me join the party to begin with.

If there is no such candidate to vote for in November '08, then I don't know what I will do.

I voted a straight D ticket in November. For the first time in my life I didn't care about performance or past. I just pushed the button. For months now I've been unable to explain how I feel about that. I do know that they won't be able to buy my vote so easily this time.

It's the only power I have to change anything. If it's even counted.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 07:30 AM
Response to Original message
94. This is going to be repeated across the country from now to election day
People are tired of giving the Dems a blank check, yet nothing gets done. Their handling of the war, especially considering that they were elected with the mandate to end the war ASAP, has disappointed thousands and millions. If the Dems fail to end the war by the election, and especially if they elect somebody like Hillary, then the left is going to leave the party in droves, either to go Green or stay home.

You can kick and scream about this all you like, but you deny it at your own peril. The writing is plain for the Dems to see, let's hope that they read it.
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ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #94
114. For the most part, "the left" will stay home.
Being a Green means work...work collecting signatures to get candidates on the ballot. Work going to meetings. Work building a movement. Unless one is a hardcore Democratic activist, the most that most Democrats do is barely make to the polls on time to vote for the corporate candidate as selected by the corporately controlled media.

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book_worm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
95. On the other hand I am friends with life long Repubicans who say
that they are so disillusioned with their party that they will "vote for almost anybody the Democrats put up in 2008."
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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
100. September, September, September....
Is the next vote to reauthorize MORE funding for Shrub's immoral war.

Last time, 85 or so DEMS capitulated to Shrub.

NO excuse for that --- simply no excuse!

If we see a similar repeat of gutless hypocrisy, then we may lose more than a few more DEMS - this September could decide the election of 08...

And I say that as a lifelong (30 years of voting) DEM.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
105. The Democrats who voted to fund Bush's war squandered our opportunity.
We need to challenge these DLC corporist types in the primaries and work for a true progressive majority.
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Mme. Defarge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #105
110. I was particularly disgusted
Edited on Sat Jun-23-07 01:58 PM by Mme. Defarge
when I learned that Shumer didn't vote. It has made me seriously wonder if he is a solely a smart, slick, political opportunist.
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
106. I expect DU to shrink rapidly
immediately following the inevitable announcement of a DLC DINO as the candidate.

But where will we go?

:shrug:
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ldf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
107. excellent thread, willyT
this IS the discussion that we need to be having, except our own party leaders are the ones that are not listening...

i, too, am at the point that my vote can not be assumed, taken for granted.

it's always wait, we have to win to do something, then we win and we don't do anything. as others have stated, how many elections have we heard THAT?

the frustration we are feeling is becoming debilitating. that is scary.

when we cave, and our democratic leaders refuse to do what needs to be done, and in effect become even more republican-lite, i'm afraid too many of us will be unable to take it any more, and not vote. but that is the fault of the party. not the members.

and it is looking more and more like our own party is not the answer.

but green, with nader, is not an option either. sorry, ralph, but i can not forgive your part in this fiasco.

a real dream?

for al to throw his hat in as an independent, after having a long conversation with the american people about how it is obvious that the system is broke. it no longer works as it is. (he could patiently give us examples of everything that has gone on that we have NOT been told about, or lied to about, or spun about, from BOTH parties.)

he, obviously, can't become a republican.

and it is obvious to him that the democratic leadership doesn't have what it takes.

so he goes independent.

then he announces either dean (my first choice) or clark as his vp, and they become independents. (i'm sure if ANYONE could persuade them, it would be al.)

that giant sucking sound that would be heard would be the collapse of the current two-party-only system. then the american people would finally feel that they have a true choice, and not just a choice of lesser evils, that maybe the "system" could provide a way out of this mess.

after gore/dean or gore/clark are elected by landslide, we the people put the pressure on our already elected reps/senators to go independent.

suddenly, even immediately, there is a valid, legitimate and working independent party, at all levels, local, state and federal.

there are probably many politictians from both parties who have been wanting to do the right thing, but felt they could not take on "the system".

that would no longer be an impediment.

then al and dean or wesley could lead us into the bright sunset of american greatness, where we truly do become a light and beacon to the world.

it would FINALLY be "morning in america" and we would be OFF the "bridge to, apparently, the 19th century" and ON the way to returning to our consitution based government, promoting equality for ALL americans, a good health for ALL americans, and the education of ALL americans based on science, and not myth, and doing it all for not, we the corporations, but we, the people.

THEN we would have the platform to save this fragile planet, before it is too late.....

ok, i can dream, can't i?
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Mme. Defarge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
108. I officially got divorced from the Democratic Party
a few weeks ago. This is the first time I have logged on since then, and it may be the last. When I stated that I would only vote for Kucinich or Gore if they ran as Independents, because I was sick of working my ass off for winning Democratic Presidential candidates (Gore and Kerry) only to have the Democratic Party not support them when their elections were stolen, I got viciously chewed out for making such a post on a website that existed for the purpose of supporting Democratic candidates.

As for the Congressional hearings, while they are great when it comes to exposing the corruption, crimes and depravity of the current administration, if they are only about embarrassing the other team so that folks won't vote for them in the future, AND NOT ABOUT IMPEACHING, CONVICTING, EVICTING AND INCARCERATING THE FELONS OCCUPYING THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH OF OUR GOVERNMENT, I am left feeling frustrated, helpless and furious at BOTH parties!

I now consider myself a political orphan, but I am no longer willing to pretend that we have anything other than a one-party system.
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JacquesMolay Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
109. I think the system is broken ....
... so how are system fixtures like Hillary Clinton, John Kerry or Nancy Pelosi going to fix them? What's their incentive when they're now at the top of the system?
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
118. your friends must be OK with Republican rule, then.
really. That's the flipside.



:shrug:
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
119. No. I'm sticking. Progress doesn't always happen in leaps and bounds.
Our Democratic Congress has done some good stuff in the 6 months we've held the majority, slim as it is.
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #119
121. I feel the same way. nt
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #119
123. Me, too
Though they can do much, much better than they've done already.

We need to keep up the pressure on them to get rid of the DLC/Beltway strategies that have hurt them for so long.

If it keeps up, I won't leave the party, but I'll start working overtime to put new leadership in.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #123
124. Tell them to keep up the pressure on Dems
If they're active Dems, they should understand that this is their party and they're in charge of it.

The Dems in DC are just the ones currently at the levers of power. We're in charge and its time to put the pressure on the DC folk to get busy or get out.

I think Dems are already hurt by declining donations from grassroots and rank & file Dems. That's become a huge chunk of their campaign finance base. It probably has them worried, but apparently not enough.

We need to keep up the pressure until they come around and send them the message that, not only will we not give them money, we'll find others to replace them if they don't get busy.

And you and your friends should think very strongly of running for office yourselves. We need more Dem activists who are willing to get off the sidelines and run for office.
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johncoby2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
122. They are dumbfucks. EOM
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-25-07 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #122
130. That'll sure convince them to come back to cogent folks like you! (NT)
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
126. I know a lot of "Lifelong Dems" who voted for Nader and Reagan before that
Edited on Sun Jun-24-07 09:56 AM by NNN0LHI
They still call themselves "Lifelong Dems."

Don't fall for the crap.

Don
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
127. When you get NO representation, you look elsewhere.
I'm considering the same.
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-25-07 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
133. Can't say I blame them.
I'm at the same point. I'm voting for liberals and if the the Dem's want to be moderate right wingers then I'll have to look elsewhere for a liberal to vote for.
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