A zygote is not a human being. This stem cell veto has me fuming

[mudesi]

Once again, Mr. Bush panders to his dwindling base at the expense of millions of lives that could be saved as a result of stem cell research. Yet around 40% of Americans still believe the lie that destroying zygotes is tantamount to destroying a human life.

There is no debate here. The scientific facts regarding this issue are crystal clear. If you are one of the people who believe human life begins at conception because of so called "religious" reasons, I have to wonder where in the Bible it says or when Jesus or Allah or God or Zeus or whatever imaginary being you worship said the words "Thou shalt not remove DNA from thy zygote"

Your religious "leaders" are lying to you.

A zygote is not a human being. A zygote is a cell with genetic information that has the potential to grow and develop into a human given the right environment.

Similarly, a sperm cell and an ovum also have the potential to grow and develop into a human, given the right environment, (eg. Close proximity in the latter environment), which, if followed to the religious fundamentalists' "logical" conclusion, makes every single menstruation and ejection of sperm (whether through masturbation or urination) the "killing of a human". It is absurd.

It angers and saddens me to see America - once the world's hub of scientific enlightenment - reduced to this. What happened to the America that invented the light bulb, the America that cured polio, the America that put a man on the moon?

Now, in the year 2007, there are creationist "museums", disclaimer stickers on biology textbooks regarding evolution, Arabic translators being kicked out of the military because of their sexual orientation, and the President of the United States vetoing scientific research because he and FORTY ONE PERCENT OF AMERICANS believe that a zygote is a human being.

How and when did America become a backwards theocracy?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. And what's worse

is that many think that the unused zygotes from fertility clinics are kept "alive" forever--talk about shock when I let people know that they are destroyed. We need to get out photos of what a zygote really looks like. I have a feeling that many think its a miniaturized Gerber baby.

[uppityperson]

39. He condemned them to be destroyed.

No use, nothing, just into the incinerator. Zap, destroyed. Thank goodness for mrbush's morals.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. Well said!

I'd say we started into a backwards theocracy on January 20, 2001...

It's horrifying....

What do these fundies think happens to all those fertilized ova? If they think at all, that is!

The vast majority are flushed, and die...

Why not let their deaths mean something, stand for something!

K&R

[Warpy]

7. I'd say it started during the campaign of 1980

When Ronald Worthless Reagan decided to become a born again antiabortionist and pretty much turned the party over to the religious wack jobs as a voting bloc they could count on.

[Caoimhe]

3. It's obvious that Bush doesn't care about life

and your post was very well put. They aren't "babies" getting tortured and killed for science. They are unwanted, unused zygotes that will be tossed into the medical waste bin whether they are used for research or not. Why not use them? Can you imagine if these idiots had been successful in keeping eggs and sperm from being destroyed in testing for new therapies, genetic mapping, etc? They want our nation to move backwards, and they've been greasing the wheels while Bush peddles in reverse.

[originalpckelly]

4. It's not all about religion, that embryo will become a person if given the right conditions.

I'm anti-abortion (I've explained why over hundreds of posts as well) yet I understand that these embryos will be destroyed anyway, we might as well do something akin to an organ transplantation in order to take a tragedy and turn it into hope for millions of Americans.

These people are a bunch of phonies, and I wouldn't be surprised if drug companies don't have some vested interest in preventing actual cures for things like diabetes, which they probably make a ton of money off of. I've seen George Bush send thousands of people to their deaths, he turned a cold shoulder to Katrina and more than a thousand people died, he's shown himself to be completely lacking in morality and compassion, despite his proclamations of being a "compassionate conservative". I know he doesn't give a damn about these embryos, he's just trying to play to his base and/or protect the big drug companies.

[EstimatedProphet]

74. MAY become a person...

That's where the big hang-up is, I think, for a lot of people. The zygote,still has to pass through gastrulation, and only 2 out of 3 survive that stage. So a full third of the zygotes, if left alone on their own, are going to die anyway. Not great odds...

[crim son]

5. Even though I agree with you,

the zygote, one must admit, has greater potential for development into a human being than either an egg or sperm, and in the minds of the anti-scientists, that makes all the difference. Never mind that these zygotes are routinely discarded, or that shrub-sponsored wars and other foreign policy kills hundreds of fully-formed people a day. In our brave new world, we get to pick and choose which facts we consider meaningful and which we do not.

I've seen mixed responses to the assertion that usable stem cells can be gained from, say, the umbilical cord, thus "sparing" the zygote and I believe the Bush admin would support using such cells. What do you think about that?

[msongs]

6. you were a zygote once. nt

[mudesi]

9. I was a sperm and an egg cell once, too

And before the sperm cell or egg cell developed, I was a collection of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen atoms.

This is absolutely absurd.

[originalpckelly]

10. You are still just a collection of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen atoms...

why do we have to keep you around? Why do you deserve to live now? Can you explain that to me? Why should there be a law preventing murder?

I know why, but until you answer that question for yourself, you will not understand.

[mudesi]

14. Ridiculous

The original reply stated that I "was a zygote once", the implication being that a zygote is a human being.

I responded with the absurd "logical" conclusion to that false statement that a sperm cell or an egg cell or the individual atoms that make them up must also therefore be a human being.

You respond, apparently unbeknownst to you, by agreeing with me that such a claim is an absurdity.

[originalpckelly]

15. A zygote is human, it is not conscious...

we might not call it a human being because of that, however it has a much higher probability of developing into what we generally agree is a human being eventually than an unfertilized egg or a sperm cell.

[WillyT]

40. No... A Zygote Is A Fertilized Egg...

or to be specific: a cell formed by the union of two gametes.

And many human zygotes are flushed out during menstruation.

:shrug:

[originalpckelly]

41. It has human DNA. It is a human zygote.

That's all I mean to say. ;-) I'm not trying to play that whole word game with you, though I thought it was a little odd to not include that.

[Az]

42. Unfortunately this subject is full of semantic land mines

More often than not confusion sets in due to misunderstandings and emotional baggage from the words in play as well as the images they create.

[originalpckelly]

46. I know. It's so hard sometimes.

I wish I just could hand someone my mind and let them explore it without having to talk to them and explain precisely what I mean. It'd be much easier. :rofl:

[bettyellen]

44. our bodies shed DNA 24/7 and don;t see it as significant. Logically, that's no BFD.

[originalpckelly]

45. Oh no, I'm just trying to point out that in an absolute factual sense...

it is human, it is not sentient, it is not a fully developed human being, or even anything resembling one. I'm not trying to imply that, and I really don't want to play the word game.

[w13rd0]

21. "I know why"...

...I would hope that the belief in a supreme being is not the sole thing keeping most people from murdering others. Because that's not a universal. What I find fascinating is that the highly religious often preach about "absolutes" and the "relativism" of humanist/liberal thought, but holding religious belief as a reason for not murdering others is the very height of slippery slopes. I do not murder other human beings not because I believe that all life is sacred, but because I believe it is not. Humans are a complex organism, and each individual has their own unique experiences, fears, personality. And yes, I've been "warned before" about the danger of my placing a value on sentience, as opposed to "life", but that's how I get through the day. It's why I do not have a moral objection to abortion, or euthenasia, but do oppose unnecessary wars. It's why I don't think murdering, enslaving, and abusing other people is right. It's why I oppose the War on Drugs, and believe strongly in universal access to health care and education. It's why I believe in equal rights for all. And my moral code won't come crashing down around me the first time something happens where I might be tempted to blame a vengeful god.

[originalpckelly]

23. Actually, I'm an agnostic.

I would just call myself an atheist, if it weren't impossible to make verifiable claims about pre-big bang events.

Go back and try again, I'm not hinting in any way to religion.

[rasputin1952]

18. But I wasn't a frozen zygote in a tube destined to be tossed into

the trash, at least I don't think so...:D

Point is, the elements that would do the most good are going to be disposed of, what difference does it make to a person of no interest? What difference does it make to the zygote?

Those fertilized clumps of cells are better off helping people, than going into a furnace or a toilet to be destroyed...there is no sense in that at all...:(

[originalpckelly]

20. Actually, even though I'm anti-abortion, I'm for stem cell research...

and I agree with you. Even super nutty cons like Orrin Hatch are for stem cell research, because he, like I, understands that these will be wasted.

[rasputin1952]

28. I am pro-choice, but i respect anti-abortion views as well...

intelligent discussion is the only way this can ever be resolved. I have a problem w/people who make a stand, and refuse to talk rationally about about this issue.

To me, what a woman does in, say Wisconsin, (I'm in NE), is none of my business, just as if that person were in my neighborhood. I have no say in the matter, unless I am the father, and then, it may be somewhat tenuous, what if the mother's life is in danger?

Essentially, to me, whether a woman decides to have a baby, or have an abortion, has nothing to do w/me...:)

[Az]

8. The problem is life and being have been conflated

Yes, destroying a zygote is killing life. But its no big deal because life on its own is not what we value. Life is interesting and all. But its not the thing we give rights to. A petri dish full of skin cells cannot vote. It can't be murdered. It can't own things. Thats because it doesn't have a mind.

A human being is not just a collection of human organs, skin, and bones. It is that collection of parts combined with a functioning sentient mind. It is the mind that makes us beings. Not life alone.

Due to this conflation on the part of the right of life and sentience there is this misconception that a zygote, embryo, and even a fetus is a human being because it is human and alive. But until the fetus develops a cerebrum there simply cannot be a human being there.

[originalpckelly]

13. Actually, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but that's all you are. Flesh and blood...

no spirit, maybe some information stored in your brain, but that's just information, no better than this message you're reading.

And even if there was a "soul" you would be preventing someone at a future time from living by killing them when they are undeveloped. It is most certainly not a guaranteed thing, but nor is the rest of life. People die all the time of "natural causes", but when people intervene and cause death with intent, then we consider it murder or some lesser form of homicide.

[Az]

16. Never said anything about spirits

The mind arises from the activity in the cerebrum. No cerebrum no mind.

[originalpckelly]

19. Very true, but you will prevent the zygote from developing into a body capable of having a mind...

is that not at all important?

[Az]

25. Potential beings are not actual beings

Potential people have no rights.

[originalpckelly]

29. Are babies people in your opinion?

(I mean the traditional definition of baby, not the pro-life manipulation of the word.)

When does the zygote/embryo/fetus/baby become sentient enough for you not to kill it without a second thought?

[Az]

34. Somewhere around the third trimester

This is when the brain finally develops the cerebrum. We can't pinpoint the moment at which sentience arises within the mind but we can determine the components necessary for it. And the cerebrum is key to this.

So yes, a baby should be extended considered a human being.

[Richard Steele]

11. Tell the Fundies: the Bible says that an unborn child is -not- valued as a "human life".

King James Version, EXODUS 21; Verse 22-23:

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her
fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow:
he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's
husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life

Basically, this says that if someone harms a pregnant woman, the penalty
for causing a miscarriage is only a FINE (and a beating from her husband).

If the WOMAN dies, the death penalty applies- "life for life".

Clearly, the BIBLE that some people love to thump does -NOT-
support the opinions of the misogynistic, death-loving asshats
who so proudly call themselves "pro-life".

The WOMAN is a considered a "human life"- the unborn child is NOT.

[BootinUp]

12. There was the story in the Bible

Old Testament of course, where the guy wasted his seed, and was turned into a salt pillar or something. ;) But I am not arguing with you.

[rasputin1952]

51. You are talking about Onan, who masturbated and was ...

"struck dead", in some versions. Pretty harsh punishment if you ask me, and I must be doing something wrong if I'm still around...:evilgrin:

Anyway Onanism is a term used in the past for masturbation, and it only applied to males. What happened over time, is that some of the Calvinists decided that anyone deriving pleasure must be inherently evil, and therefore a sinner extraordinaire, I was brought up a Lutheran, and i once asked if it were true that if I smiled, I'd be struck dead...that got me a "paddlin' "...:(

The old Calvinist attitudes prevail in many sects, It boils down to, "Someone, somewhere, is enjoying something, and we have to put an end to that right now ".

Kind of sad really, there is actually little in the Bible regarding sex, when you compare it to haw many lessons about hypocrisy are mentioned. For some reason, the hypocrisy aspects seem to be overlooked whenever possible, go figure...

Well...that's about it for tonights Bible by Ras, and I think I hear Onan calling anyway...

[soothsayer]

54. Knew a guy who named his parakeet Onan cuz he kept spilling his seed.

Mormon co-worker. Made me howl!

[rasputin1952]

60. ROFLMAO...that's great!

:rofl:

[B3Nut]

66. Actually, to be nitpicky,

Onan's "sin" was coitus interruptus, not masturbation. He didn't want to have kids by his dead brother's wife, so he pulled out before the ol' squirteroonie. He wasn't twiddlin' the trouser trout by any means.

:D

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

[rasputin1952]

70. Ah yes, and there has been serious discussion as to this...

through out history in Judaism and Christianity. I suppose the majority of people involved in any kind of "study", and why people would study this in the first place baffles me; had decided this was a non-event, (no pun intended...:) ). It has more to do w/the "punishment" than anything else, and most likely, Onan just died after said non-event, but it has been taken as some form of Divine Retribution, that has the inner circles of religious nuts up in arms. No one suggests that coitus be banned, but there are some who say it is only an act of procreation, and all other acts are "banned"...I'll call that BS.

It had been taken to the point of masturbation simply because masturbation gave pleasure w/o procreation, and the Pleasure Police come out in force whenever someone might actually have the opportunity to enjoy a part of life...can't have that damnable "fun" thing hanging around, now can we.

Anyway...Onan got the short end of the stick, and his sister-in-law probably had some serious issues to deal w/after the whole episode....:D

[NashVegas]

17. I'm Not a Religious Person, Yet I Still Tremble at the Direction This Is Taking

Because the industry that funds this research is motivated by one thing, and one thing only: future profits. And they are using the hopes and fears of those of us who refuse to accept that our bodies are, by nature, less than perfect and come with an eventual expiration date, to remove political obstacles to that profit.

Meanwhile, the DNA genome is mapped, industry has patent rights to the manipulations of the genome. As a race we have no other purpose on this earth but to fuck and make babies; what happens when so-called science takes precedence in reproductive methods? What purpose shall humans have, other than to constitute a labor pool for the ownership society?

[originalpckelly]

22. I'm willing to bet both sides are just doing this for profits.

The people on our side in Congress have probably taken money from companies that into embryonic stem cell research, while the President and the few folks in the House/Senate who are against this have probably taken money from people working on non-embryonic methods.

I don't actually believe any of these Washington politicians care about people, one way or the other, they just want to make the most money and gain power.

[rasputin1952]

24. There are tens of thousands of babies up for adoption...

but I don't see all of those that believe a frozen zygote as a viable human being running out and adopting fully formed humans that need love and care...:shrug:

And killing fully formed human beings in wars, through the DP, in accidents and murders, almost seems to be completely acceptable. That is one part of the equation that is far too often overlooked...:(

And for those who might be helped by the "loss" of a few zygotes, some of the same who survive accidents, and murder attempts, are to be left to suffer for the rest of their lives, I find that somewhat appalling, especially when said zygotes are destroyed anyway...x(

[originalpckelly]

26. It is not impossible to be against all killing of humans.

Not everyone who is anti-abortion/anti-embryonic stem cell research is religious. I happen to be for stem cell research and against abortion, yet I'm an agnostic.

[rasputin1952]

33. This is fine IMO...however, it is the religious right that is most

vociferous on this issue, they are the ones getting attention, and force stands.

Until Roe v Wade, this issue was essntially moot, but the RR saw it as a "gathering point" and used it to solidify a waning religious movement into a new tide of zealotry.

They gained from this, and to me it is a personal issue, taht does involve me in any form, except that if they get their way...women will lose just more than a clean and sterile procedure. They will lose their lives in back alleys and cold "clinics". Abortion will not stop w/a law, it will simply become a horrendous way for women to die on cold floors, just as they did before...:(

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

27. There Is So Much Logically Wrong Within The OP. There Really Is.

But since the end result would be the same anyway, I'm not even going to waste my time pointing them out since in the end of it all, I agree whole heartedly that stem cell research should absolutely go forward.

[originalpckelly]

30. It's up to us. We have a solemn duty to try and do what we can. It sucks big time...

because just about everyone else who's a progressive disagrees with us, but being progressives we have to show them the error of their ways. Quite frankly, now that I get it, I don't think someone could call themselves a true progressive and allow this manifestation of social darwinism to continue.

[mudesi]

32. Logic has nothing to do with it

Pointing out scientific facts have nothing to do with logic. In fact, the only "logic" I used was the kind in quotation marks, the kind of absurd conclusions religious fundamentalists can only arrive at.

[BlooInBloo]

62. You couldn't speak any more truly than that. LOL!

[Peregrine Took]

31. If its moving - its alive and has a right to live. As the Buddhist's say - "harm

no living, sentient being."

[pansypoo53219]

38. but is georgie sentient?

can we harm him?



(as long as the secret service lets us?)

[uppityperson]

55. No apostrophe in "Buddhists"

unless you mean something like the Buddhist's blanket fell off his bed.

[GeorgeGist]

35. Knowing how the Neoconartists operate ...

they've probably got bundles of money invested in private stem cell research ... which avoids all those quaint 'public property' concerns come patent and profit time.

[originalpckelly]

36. That's exactly it, they are all in it for some type of profit/power motive.

They don't give a damn about anyone, it's all about MONEY!

If it made them money, they'd set kittens on fire.

[Gregorian]

37. You're mad? I've been reduced to watching reruns of the Three Stooges!

I kid you not. Today I spent the entire day watching Three Stooges episodes.

And now I'm even more angry! You know why? Because I discovered two things. They had more common sense than I see displayed by the people we're trying to disarm, and because I discovered they're Democrats. In one of the skits, they're being inducted into the army. The sargent says they are going to defend the republic, and Moe says, "But I'm a Democrat".

I'm not even joking. It's the worst thing, to give up. But I feel like a worthless pawn. How much more does it take to wake the wrath of common decency and sense? I said a live abortion on tv, by Cheney. But we've just discovered nearly that.

All I can say is, keep ranting. Your post is right on! And remember that there was a time when we fought a civil war to keep idiots from having slaves. That's really crazy. Maybe we've made progress. But it's too darned slow.

[sampsonblk]

43. If not a human, what else might it develop into? (nt)

[originalpckelly]

47. Maybe it's a superposition of human and non-human.

Schroedinger's zygote anyone?

[Az]

48. This is a temporal problem

The question is not what will it become. It is what is it now. Major difference there. If I eat an orange it will become part of me. But that does not make an orange a human now.

[Lance_Boyle]

69. Biohazardous waste, then ash.

That is the *only* other option left on the table for what may become of a zygote-on-ice at a fertility clinic. It has ZERO potential in its on-ice state to become a human being. Only outside manipulation (implantation, not to mention thawing ;-) ) would grant it the potential to become a human being.

[gollygee]

71. Most of them won't develop into anything

most don't implant despite efforts, or are discarded at that stage

[sampsonblk]

75. OK if permitted to develop, what will it develop into?

How's that?

[cgrindley]

49. Maybe to you it's not, but actually, it really is

I'm a militantl anti-theist and I support current abortion rights, but it seems utterly obvious that from conception onwards, we're talking about a human being.

What the general public believes or not is immaterial. Egg + Sperm = Person

I have no problem killing a human when it is only a zygote. Why does it trouble you?

[Ellen Forradalom]

50. What flabbergasted me was the warmonger's rationalization

"This bill would support the taking of innocent human life in the hope of finding medical benefits for others," Bush said Wednesday afternoon. "It crosses a moral boundary that our decent society needs to respect. So I vetoed it.

The utter cynicism of these words from Bush's mouth left me speechless.

[rasputin1952]

52. I am not advocating harm on bush, but things have a way of ...

"evening out", so to speak. Let's say bush has a stroke, but This may have been treated if stem cell research had gone ahead full steam. Years down the road, and bush, already debilitated, by the effects of said stroke, finds out he could have been cured if he had allowed said research to go on, but in his arrogance and complete misunderstanding of science, now lies in a bed, soiling himself and unable to change the channel on the TV, and the story gets looped as the greatest find in medical history, and it was so simple in retrospect, it would have been found in weeks.

This would be Justice, but in the mean time, people that may be helped, the crippled, the blind, the deaf, those w/Parkinson's and Alzheimer's, live lives devoid of any hope in reversing the ravages of disease in their tortured lifetimes, and let's not even think about the families that suffer as well.

In the stroke of a pen, this man showed he has no heart, no soul, no compassion. He caresa only about what HE can gain, nothing else matters to him. He loses nothing, so it is nothing to him. Just as in this war, he loses nothing, not even a nights sleep, as death and maiming goes on, unhindered, and on a vast scale...The man is in his glory...:grr:

[soothsayer]

53. Me too! "We have to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis to accomplish our goals, but

killing this little ol' zygote is WRONG."

[uppityperson]

56. He'd rather have them incinerated than used for good. That also is flabbergasting.

moral indeed

[sandnsea]

57. Right there with ya

All these zygote worshippers need to write a law that women have to submit all menstrual blood for inspection and proper burial of dead zygotes. If they aren't willing to do that, then they're full of shit in objecting to "experimenting on life".

[originalpckelly]

58. On the other hand, if we use your reasoning we ought to start investigating natural deaths...

as possible homicides.

Who knew all deaths were caused by human intervention?

That's just so silly! Silly! Silly!

[sandnsea]

61. We bury ALL dead PEOPLE

Natural or otherwise. The fact that you don't give a shit about passed zygotes, never even thought to give a shit about them, is evidence that this is a completely trumped up argument and YOU have been brainwashed with it.

[originalpckelly]

67. I agree, I don't really give a shit about them, you're right and I even support embryonic...

stem cell research, which is even a later form of development, I want to point out how flawed your logic is.

[Az]

59. The thing that is irritating is if you actually read the bible

The only time it mentions anything remotely like an abortion it merely glosses over it.

Exodus 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

Basically its a fine if men beat a woman to the point of miscarrage. And thats doing it against her will.

Heck the bible is even sketchy on whether a one month old baby counts as a person.

Numbers
3:14 And the LORD spake unto Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, saying,
3:15 Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them.
3:16 And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD, as he was commanded.

And finally the bible seems to condone abortions if the babies are in infidels wombs.

Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

[RogueSpirit]

63. Question about this veto and funding

I am confused about something. Did this veto completely ban embryonic stem cell research or did it just ban Gov't funding for embryonic stem cell research? Also, is it legal in foreign countries? The reason I am asking is because if it is legal overseas or can take place here with private funding, then the research will still occur.

Of course, this presents a whole new set of questions, for example, suppose they DO find a good and effective cure. Would the FDA approval process count as gov't funding of the research?

[ordinaryaveragegirl]

64. I'll bet that in about 18 months, we wont have any more worries...

Because I'm sure the next president (who will probably have a "D" after their name) will finally give this research the chance it deserves. The zygotes in question wouldn't even be viable fetuses until at least 23-24 weeks gestation, and even that's sketchy at best. Of course, it's okay to dispose of them, even though he claims they're "innocent life," but not okay to give them a greater purpose of possibly saving someone else's life??? He won't open his mind a bit as long as the Fundies are in bed with him. :eyes:

Even Nancy Reagan supports stem cell research. Come on, *, wake up and quit vetoing this bill. :banghead:

[Nikki Stone1]

65. Zygotes: human. Iraqis: objects to be killed. The Bush base never ceases to amaze me.

Bastards.

[blondeatlast]

68. George loved me as a blastocyst. Now that I've taken insulin for 40 years and

had secondary complications, he's left me.

Disgusting little man.

[Ganja Ninja]

72. They're being flushed down the drain anyway.

Either way they are being destroyed so the right wing extremist arguments don't make sense as usual.

[Dragonbreathp9d]

73. "I have decided to issue a signing statement outlawing masturbation and minstration"

"They destroy potential life"