Meanwhile over at Jim Robinson's FreeRepublic....

[Aviation Pro]

...they are hating education and loans at the same time. Apparently, stupidity is the new common denominator for the nation:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1851742/posts

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Graduating with degrees in debt
Waterbury Republican-American ^ | June 17, 2007 | O'Shaughnessy


Posted on 06/17/2007 11:52:39 AM PDT by Graybeard58


My friend's son is moving back home. He is in debt, his mother says. "Up to his eyebrows."

Well, join the club.

Most Americans today carry about $8,000 in credit card debt, which sounds like peanuts to some of us out here, staggering under far more. Lots of this debt goes to all the doo-dads and gee-gaws that we once considered luxuries and now view as staples. But more, far more of that debt is going toward the very lubricant that Americans have been indoctrinated into believing will grease the economic ladder for them: Education.

Education, which Thomas Jefferson once proclaimed as the "great equalizer of the conditions of men," has become the great albatross of the working class. The difference between what a high school student can hope to earn today versus what a college student earns is the difference between Dinty Moore beef stew and bouillabaisse.

A college graduate earns almost twice as much as a high school graduate over his or her lifetime, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. Add to that the attendant social and cultural benefits (college graduates tend to vote, read and attend cultural events), to say nothing of the soupcon of wisdom that students might inhale, and you've got a time-tested vehicle for success.

Here's the catch: You have to be as rich as Croesus to afford it. Either that, or you have to embrace indentured servitude. The average cost of a four-year private institution is $22,218 a year this year, an increase of almost 6 percent over last year, reports the College Board. The organization adds that tuition will increase an average of 10 percent each year for public schools and 6 percent for private ones.

College tuition has grown faster than family income for the past 15 years but that hasn't stopped families from doing whatever they can to get their progeny into the higher halls of academia. It is a tragic equation that is tearing at the middle class, leaving it caught between a rock and a hard place: Throw your children to the demons of debt or consign them to a life of dead-end jobs and missed opportunities.

The worst of it is that we are living shoulder-to-shoulder with what USA Today calls "the wealthiest generation in American history." The problem, if you could call it that, is that the people grabbing that wealth are typically over 55. Wealth for older families has actually doubled since 1989. For those 35 to 50, wealth has shrunk. They cannot manage to save and they are smothered by debt.

I graduated from college in 1984 with a debt I then considered crushing: $10,000. For 10 years, I sent little paper stubs of $117 a month off to Wachovia Bank in North Carolina. That seems like chicken feed now, but, remember, I was working in newspapers. Chicken feed is what they pay you.

Today, the average college student is graduating with more than $19,000 in debt, if they're lucky. Go to a "good" (i.e. expensive) college, and it's worse. USA Today reports on students who have six-figure debt, like Rutgers University graduate Joe Palazzolo, who graduated this year with a master's degree in public policy and student loans of more than $116,000. (That's an $800 monthly payment).

College costs will continue to accelerate, and you don't have to have a college degree to figure out why. There's a huge demographic bubble of kids in the college-age group, so it's a buyer's market from a college's perspective.

To make themselves attractive to students, they add fripperies like spas and widespread Internet access, to say nothing of trendy coffee shops, rock-climbing walls, state-of-the-art health clubs and princely dining halls. The University of Vermont recently spent nearly $100 million on student amenities, including an artificial skating pond. Boston University upped the ante with six racquetball and squash courts, a competition pool, a recreational pool, two gyms, a jogging track and a 35-foot rock-climbing wall.

Washington State University boasts the largest student weight and cardiovascular center in the country, a natatorium that features a leisure pool with a water volleyball net and water spa that can accommodate more than 50 people. Ohio State University's $140 million gym includes a natatorium with five pools and two spas, golf hitting stations with putting greens

What, you may ask, does this have to do with Plato?

Ah, but you would have to be a college graduate to answer that.

And that would cost a lot of dough.



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TOPICS: Business/Economy; Extended News
KEYWORDS: college; debt; education
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1 posted on 06/17/2007 11:52:42 AM PDT by Graybeard58
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To: Graybeard58
Well, duh! If colleges are intent on becoming more like luxury resorts, then of course tuition is going to go up.



2 posted on 06/17/2007 11:58:11 AM PDT by LibFreeOrDie (L'Chaim!)
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To: Graybeard58
A college degree is worth zilch. Add a legal degree, or MBA, or PhD and you might have something. but that would require getting some kind of decent grades at some point. Seventh grade is when they start to notice grades, so that is when the wheat starts to separate from the chaff. Party, get a truck, get a job at McDonalds and disappear in the chaff, or read some of the assigned books and get the grades. It’s never too late: witness the 73 year old who hopes to pass the high school exit exam so he can get married and join the army. If he had done this at age 18 he would be high in the cabinet of his country and on the BOD of an international bank or own a $10 million house in Tennessee and be in Congress.



3 posted on 06/17/2007 11:58:37 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
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To: Graybeard58
the average college student is graduating with more than $19,000 in debt

The average college student will spend more than that on their first car.

4 posted on 06/17/2007 12:00:07 PM PDT by P-40 (Al Qaeda was working in Iraq. They were just undocumented.)
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To: Graybeard58
I can relate... :(



5 posted on 06/17/2007 12:00:10 PM PDT by LaineyDee (Don't mess with Texas wimmen!)
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To: Graybeard58
College tuition will continue to increase at exponential rates as long as congress keeps fixing the problem by making more money available.

The more student loans available the more the colleges know they can ask for and get from the students.



6 posted on 06/17/2007 12:02:10 PM PDT by festus (The constitution may be flawed but its a whole lot better than what we have now.)
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To: Graybeard58
A top tier Ivy League college IS expensive. I attended state university. At least I don't have a lifetime of crushing debt to pay off.

7 posted on 06/17/2007 12:02:44 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: RightWhale
Greybeard is correct. An undergrad degree for anything other than science or engineering is asympotically approaching a Wizard of Oz degree. (All political “science” types can look up the word “asymptote”.) Of course, the next step is govt sponsorshop of all college education, followed by govt jobs for the vast majority of graduates who have no discernable skill, followed by “equal rights” and “diversity” requirements so as to provide positions for those entirely incapable of producing income. Such is life. Remember, we already have provisions for the talentless: Rap, civil servants, and - most important - politics. (Common, think of ANYTHING that Gore could really do...)



8 posted on 06/17/2007 12:04:55 PM PDT by Da Coyote
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To: festus
Private insustry is now big time in the student loan business. They are bribing the schools to put their info in the student's face.
It won't go away and the universities will continue to increase fees because there is no incentive to do otherwise.


9 posted on 06/17/2007 12:05:17 PM PDT by herMANroberts
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To: herMANroberts
True. But those loans are, at the end of the day, government backed against default.

They have the added “bonus” of not being able to be wiped away in bankruptcy either.

The kids are getting screwed and congress is helping lending institutions do it.



10 posted on 06/17/2007 12:07:52 PM PDT by festus (The constitution may be flawed but its a whole lot better than what we have now.)
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To: festus
What a wonderful country! Or to quote that great american, Don King, only in America.



11 posted on 06/17/2007 12:09:34 PM PDT by herMANroberts
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To: Da Coyote
If somebody thinks it might be neat to have an income of $50 million a year like those others who clearly aren’t really all that much smarter, they might take a look at what opens doors. Unless he is the son of an elite family already, he will have to take the graduate school route, and physics won’t get it done. Law is the road to success in America. But, get the grades in high school and then in college so you can get your way paid. Be a Corporate lawyer and all doors will open.



12 posted on 06/17/2007 12:10:06 PM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
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To: goldstategop
And once again I’ll post this, just so it college doesn’t seem hopeless and out of reach financially. It is possible to graduate with your bachelors tuition free.

Dual credit during high school will earn an AA, with no tuition. Many, many states have merit scholarships that provide full tuition and books, if you score high enough on the ACT/SAT and attend a state university. In Florida it’s called Bright Futures, in Georgia, I think it’s called the Hope Scholarship.

Of course, to make this work, you have to attend state universities, and be fortunate enough to live within communiting distance (thus eliminating housing expense.)



13 posted on 06/17/2007 12:10:16 PM PDT by dawn53
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To: Graybeard58
I sincerely doubt that there is any significant difference between, say, and education at Harvard, and one gained at UMass or Boston College. Except that, when on job interviews, you can drop the name “Harvard”, get ooh’s and aah’s and much more moolah. Meanwhile, not a single person among the the Forbes 500’s top 50 has a degree from an ivy league school. Homeschooled kids routinely outscore students from the nation’s top private schools on standardized exams.



14 posted on 06/17/2007 12:11:23 PM PDT by montag813
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To: dawn53
I was fortunate enough to earn both bachelor's and master's degrees. I just think if I have children, an Ivy League education would be financially out of reach for them.

15 posted on 06/17/2007 12:14:23 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: Graybeard58
Today, the average college student is graduating with more than $19,000 in debt,
Man needs a little cheese with that whine, the last I heard the united state military was still paying tuition after active duty service. So save your money, don't be a coward, saddle up!

Oh, it worked for me!


16 posted on 06/17/2007 12:14:34 PM PDT by org.whodat (What's the difference between a Democrat and a republican????)
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To: festus
The kids are getting screwed and congress is helping lending institutions do it.

They can always *choose* to avoid the risks and not go to college.

17 posted on 06/17/2007 12:14:40 PM PDT by P-40 (Al Qaeda was working in Iraq. They were just undocumented.)
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To: RightWhale
"or PhD and you might have something"
OKAY, I realise anecdotal ain't much, but I know that our son would not be where he is if we, and his older brother, had not pushed him after the Masters thing. Heads up the Equity derivatives research dept. for a large intl bank now.

Never with a BA or Masters would he have gotten this far....Beat out the MIT,Harvard, Yale guys who laughed when they saw he came from Flori-DUH for his first job at JPM on Wall St.

As I said, anecdotal-totally- but illustrate what advanced degrees can do for ya...BTW, taught at Florida while going and No Debt at graduation....We are blessed with our kids beyond our understanding....


18 posted on 06/17/2007 12:16:48 PM PDT by litehaus (A memory tooooo long)
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To: Da Coyote
So why do I (as an engineering student) get labeled a bigot when I tell arts students that they won’t find jobs when they graduate? Dare I speak the truth?



19 posted on 06/17/2007 12:18:14 PM PDT by AntiKev ("No damage. The world's still turning isn't it?" - Stereo Goes Stellar - Blow Me A Holloway)
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To: LibFreeOrDie
Thats not the problem. The real dirty little secret here is every middle class parent is paying his kids tuition. AND the tuition of 1 or 2 minority or poor kids tuition. On top of that many private schools are sitting on huge endowments that they WON’T touch.



20 posted on 06/17/2007 12:18:46 PM PDT by Kozak (Anti Shahada: " There is no God named Allah, and Muhammed is his False Prophet")
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To: Graybeard58
Georgia State, York University (Canada), University of Texas at Dallas. I paid as I went, occasionally using the GI Bill, working full time and never went into educational debt.

Putting your kids in college right out of high school is only one possible way of them getting a piece of paper to hang on the wall that says they know how to use a library.



21 posted on 06/17/2007 12:19:48 PM PDT by gcruse
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To: festus
College tuition will continue to increase at exponential rates as long as congress keeps fixing the problem by making more money available. The more student loans available the more the colleges know they can ask for and get from the students.

Bingo! Just like home prices, medical costs etc.

22 posted on 06/17/2007 12:20:45 PM PDT by gas0linealley (.good fences make good neighbors)
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To: Da Coyote
"the next step is govt sponsorship of all college education,"
But, but but --Bill Clinton said --Everyone that wants to go, should be able to to college....

AND- I think they are already by what I see/hear....


23 posted on 06/17/2007 12:21:01 PM PDT by litehaus (A memory tooooo long)
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To: RightWhale
” 73 year old who hopes to pass the high school exit exam so he can get married and join the army.’

LOL
Would that be the 2nd Geriatric Corps?



24 posted on 06/17/2007 12:21:20 PM PDT by gcruse
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To: dawn53
Also read through this link to find many more thrifty ways of educating yourself or children for cheaper.
Gary North link.

http://www.lowestcostcolleges.com/



25 posted on 06/17/2007 12:22:38 PM PDT by 4Godsoloved..Hegave
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To: Graybeard58
Anybody who doesn't do cost-benefit / break-even analysis on every major purchase, including higher education, is stupid, no matter how many PhDs they buy.

26 posted on 06/17/2007 12:23:02 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (http://www.imwithfred.com/)
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To: Graybeard58
took me TEN years to pay off my student loans... i have NO pity for them.

27 posted on 06/17/2007 12:23:12 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist)
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To: Graybeard58
As colleges become increasing more female-dominated and many of those women still wind up being child-bearers and raisers, I question just how important a college degree is for some of them. Are they just trying to land a college-educated man or are they actually intending to use their degrees for some job in the real world?

Yes, some women obviously do - either by desire or necessity. But I know all sorts of women who went through college and are doing nothing that would justify the debt of going off to college.

My belief is that you shouldn’t attend college nowadays unless you know what sort of degree you are looking for and intend to benefit from.



28 posted on 06/17/2007 12:28:10 PM PDT by Tall_Texan (Global warming? Hell, in Texas, we just call that "summer".)
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To: Chode
Have no fear, the government is here to help. They are looking at forcing divorced parents to pay.



29 posted on 06/17/2007 12:29:57 PM PDT by Pikachu_Dad
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To: Graybeard58
This sounds like high tech whining to me. Some people have lost sight of everything that worked in this country. We did this the old fashioned way; worked two jobs, amassed the cash, and paid for our two kids college. No loans, no debt, no monthly payments.
As my ancestral Irish mother said, if you can't pay for it in cash, then you dont't need it. That advice has never failed me.


30 posted on 06/17/2007 12:34:14 PM PDT by tenthirteen
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To: RightWhale
A college degree is worth zilch.
Worth zilch in terms of ability to perform on the job, but increasingly necessary to even get in the door for an interview.

Employers don't want lazy, surly slobs who can barely read. Screening for that on your own is an assault on diversity (which is our strength) that will get the EEOC on your neck. So instead you make up an unrelated BA requirement and let the college system do that screening for you.


31 posted on 06/17/2007 12:38:51 PM PDT by CGTRWK
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To: Da Coyote
“Of course, the next step is govt sponsorshop of all college education, followed by govt jobs for the vast majority of graduates who have no discernable skill...”

This, of course, is where we get our brainless federal bureaucrats, excluding those involved in national security. They are completely counterintuitive, contribute nothing to society and needlessly harass productive businesses and citizens, all the while worshipping their god - the Marxist state - and molding society to serve big government.

I believe the founders completely covered the nature of the government leech in the Declaration of Independence.



32 posted on 06/17/2007 12:41:04 PM PDT by sergeantdave
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To: Pikachu_Dad
“They are looking at forcing divorced parents to pay.”

They already do in most states.

If you are divorced parents, you have no choice about paying for your children’s college education.

You HAVE to pay for it.



33 posted on 06/17/2007 12:41:55 PM PDT by EEDUDE (The more I know, the less I understand...)
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To: EEDUDE
That is strange. Once a kid is eighteen, their claim on their parent’s should be zero.



34 posted on 06/17/2007 12:50:41 PM PDT by P-40 (Al Qaeda was working in Iraq. They were just undocumented.)
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To: P-40
the average college student is graduating with more than $19,000 in debt
The average college student will spend more than that on their first car.

Or buy a junker as most of us did. Kids today spend more money in iPods and other crap than they do on anything substantial. I rode a bicycle between classes and the dorm.

The only debt my wife and I ever had were school loans and a mortgage. Then again, 40 years ago the instant-gratification generation hadn't been born.

And to those with an $8k balance at 21% APR... F-'em if they're too stooopid to figger it out.


35 posted on 06/17/2007 12:57:44 PM PDT by Cobra64 (www.BulletBras.net)
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To: P-40
That is strange. Once a kid is eighteen, their claim on their parent’s should be zero.
I agree, with two exceptions-

1) If the divorcing couple make an agreement to pay for college, that is a contract and it should be enforced.

2) Children should be penilized because back when they were five, their parents decided to hold them back from kindergarten so that they would be the biggest kid in class next year. Given that and other state kids requiring to be at least five at the start of kindergarten, you have many kids who will turn 18 shortly before or at the beginning of their senior year of high school.


36 posted on 06/17/2007 12:58:38 PM PDT by LWalk18
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To: CGTRWK
My Revered Regional Manager of a large Corporation told me a college degree would help you get a job, but it would not help you keep a job. His advice was if you want a degree go to College, if you want an education go to the Library. He took a chance on me many years ago, no degree, but I was what he called a “ Raker and scraper”and eventually I worked my way up to his old position. Raking and Scraping.

37 posted on 06/17/2007 12:59:06 PM PDT by BooBoo1000 (Some times I wake up grumpy, other times I let her sleep/)
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To: Pikachu_Dad
God forbid the lil'darlings should have to pay their own way in the world... just one MORE way to squeeze dear old dad.

38 posted on 06/17/2007 12:59:59 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist)
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To: Cobra64
I had no debts when I graduated college in 1979. My father bought 100 shares of General Motors stock when I was a toddler under a state law that exempted it from taxes until I turned 18. The stocks were sold when I turned 18 and the dividends plus the stock sale paid for two years of college at a state university. The other two years were paid for through my hard work, social security payments (my father died during my junior year) and some scholarship money.



39 posted on 06/17/2007 1:08:57 PM PDT by Tall_Texan (Global warming? Hell, in Texas, we just call that "summer".)
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To: Graybeard58
The following are Fortune 500s that filed briefs in favor of “affirmative action” in the Michigan “Grutter v. Bollinger” (Michigan University) case.

http://www.umich.edu/~urel/admissions/legal/gru_amicus/32_internatl.pdf

3M
Abbott Laboratories
American Airlines
Ashland
Bank One
Boeing
Coca-Cola
Dow Chemical
E.I. Du Pont De Nemours
Eastman Kodak
Eli Lilly
Ernst & Young
Exelon
Fannie Mae
General Dynamics
General Mills
Intel
Johnson & Johnson
Kellogg
KPMG
Lucent Technologies
Microsoft
Mitsubishi
Nationwide Mutual Insurance
Nationwide Financial
Pfizer
PPG
Proctor & Gamble
Sara Lee
Steelcase
Texaco
TRW
United Airlines
General Motors Corporation

http://www.umich.edu/~urel/admissions/legal/gru_amicus/gru_gm.html



40 posted on 06/17/2007 1:11:30 PM PDT by familyop
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To: RightWhale
A college degree us NOT worth zilch. My four kids all have degrees (only one a MA in History) and they are doing quite well. Two, including the MA in History are in the Army, and one makes over 200K per year, another about 100K with an engineering degree from Georgia Tech.
Our universities are doing a great job educating, except of course for the liberal propaganda.



41 posted on 06/17/2007 1:19:38 PM PDT by GeorgefromGeorgia
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To: Graybeard58
“they cannot manage to save and are covered by debt”

These are some of the same “sub prime” idiots who are now losing their homes. If you choose to live like a millionare on middle class wages, what can one expect? These are the same values bding passed along to their kids who are “up to their eyeballs in debt.”



42 posted on 06/17/2007 1:20:26 PM PDT by freeangel ( (free speech is only good until someone else doesn't like what you say))
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[datadiva]

1. I knew if I read far enough down I'd find out Clinton did it!

And sure enough, there it was!

[Liberal Veteran]

2. One must live within "communiting" distance?

Um, sure.

[DS1]

3. Sorry, I had to stop at this word "bouillabaisse"

This is obviously written by some kind of liberal elitist French food eating smartypants.

I've never heard of it, so it can't be American, and I only eat American food like Pizza, and Hamburgers, and Frankfurters!

:grr:

[Solo_in_MD]

4. Actually there are some good points in the Waterbury Republican-American article

- College gets you better income potential, in some cases much more
- College is getting bloody expensive. The state schools are rising faster that private ones, and they have all risen faster than the general inflation rate
- The college loan industry is becoming a racket
- Kids are starting out in the hole, a recent phenomena
All of the above are accurate general statements about the current conditions.

My real concern is generational warfare. While this may seem an odd issue to connect to this, there is clearly increasing stress between the haves and have nots across the generation. The soon to retire boomers have defined benefit pensions, social security, and a high level of assets on average. They will also be getting tax breaks and other benefits. Meanwhile the 20 and 30 somethings will be trying to pay off education debt, create families, and try to have life, while paying the high taxes required to support the retired boomers. The stresses that are coming clear and dangerous.

My own choice is different that many. I am doing everything necessary to fund my children's college, including being a geo-bachelor in the Wash DC area to bring in some serious money. They will have the debt free start my wife and I had, and hopefully be able to do that for their children.

[stevedeshazer]

5. I didn't git no education, and it didn't hurt me none

Sincerely,

Freeper Working Three Jobs To Pay $90 A Tank For Giant Freaking Truck

[Bjorn Against]

9. And i gradshuhated from no chyld leafed behind

And my brane is HUGH!!!111 I'm Series.

[mitchum]

6. Man, sergeantdave stands out as a real idiot among idiots (n/t)

[ebayfool]

7. This 'dumass' is lost in the 50's ... !

To: Graybeard58
As colleges become increasing more female-dominated and many of those women still wind up being child-bearers and raisers, I question just how important a college degree is for some of them. Are they just trying to land a college-educated man or are they actually intending to use their degrees for some job in the real world?

Yes, some women obviously do - either by desire or necessity. But I know all sorts of women who went through college and are doing nothing that would justify the debt of going off to college.

My belief is that you shouldn't’t attend college nowadays unless you know what sort of degree you are looking for and intend to benefit from.



28 posted on 06/17/2007 12:28:10 PM PDT by Tall_Texan (Global warming? Hell, in Texas, we just call that "summer".)
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Come on dude, yer lagging - that little piece o'tripe is ripe beyond belief! Wimmins' only go to college to get a man? Some dinosaurs just don't go extinct fast enough.

Probably also thinks every woman he meets deep down secretly wants him. Sheesh!

[MiniMe]

8. That would be the MRS degree