I saw a fundie play last night

[treestar]

The reason I went is that Dad was in it. He started his acting career in his 60s and has appeared at this particular theater a couple of times and made some minor name for himself in local theater.

It is called “Catacombs” and is a fundie fantasy of Christian persecution. The US is a totalitarian state, of course and in fact is run by the Anti-Christ (the over the costuming in the drama included Gestapo-types police whose hats bore the logo “666!”)

The Christians are hiding in the hills, many of them having lost close family members who were killed for being Christians.

The crisis in the plot comes when a leader is forced to watch his fellow Christians be killed, and in the case of the young girl, even raped, because he refuses to renounce Jesus Christ.

To me, this makes JC look bad. Would he really you rather did that then just denounced him to the Gestapo but didn’t really mean it, to save your fellow human some suffering?

It also unintentionally brought out the cultishness of fundie far right wing nutjob Christianity. Each character has a speech about death; all very morbid. A little girl died from eating bad food, and one survivor tried to comfort the mother with the thought that the little girl had escaped worse. Now where have I heard that before?

All of the Christians begged their leader to let them die or even be raped and then killed rather than that he just verbally denounce Jesus Christ. What was really over the top was that each was shuffled offstage and then you heard the gunshots. Since there were at least six characters to be disposed of this way, it got rather uncomfortable. And of course, the “hero” sat there and refused to denounce JC while watching all these people die (fortunately for the audience, they skipped the rape, though they had threatened it), until he was finally taken off himself and shot.

Why do the fundies love their delusions of persecution? They know it will never happen in America, and that if it did, they are the ones who would be doing the persecuting. Maybe it’s projection?

[Jackpine Radical]

1. Yeah, like those little fish thingies on their cars.

They all have them as a secret sign so they can recognize each other and stay under the radar of us big, bad, persecuting secular humanists and pagans and whatnot.

[treestar]

2. Which is all so false

Atheists and secular humanists or whatever have no desire to stop them from being Christians.

Yet they forever pretend to think they are going to be "persecuted" by others.

[rurallib]

6. They seem to think that the 1st century were th good old days

Crucifixions, burnings in oil, stonings. Why can't today's Xtians have fun like that and show Jesus how they care by getting themselves offed?

[treestar]

7. They referred in the play to the Romans

the "catacombs" was where the persecuted Christians in Rome had their worship services.

It's as if they want that back again, and try to play up whatever they can, from such absurdities as taking "under God" out of the pledge to the "war on Christmas."

[Jackpine Radical]

21. Manufacturing persecution.

Maybe in order to justify their version of the Golden Rule:
Do unto others before they do unto you.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spoony]

60. It's a universal Christian symbol, in fact the first,

before the cross. Just to make it clear, you are calling all Christians, not just fundies or whoever, "delusional dumbasses." Not that it's anything odd on DU.

[patrice]

3. I think Projection explains some of it.

There's also a lot of externalization going on; the thinking is something can't be real unless there is some external sign for it that is publicly identified as such. For example, "My commitment to the Lord isn't real unless I tell others." Therefore, any verbal contradiction destroys the thing one contradicts. To me, it's more magical thinking and magical words. It also explains why so many churches have stages and lots of productions. There is a physiological buzz associated with even low levels of public talk about anything; emotionally charged topics like death and love create even more buzz, a.k.a. "the Holy Spirit".

People confuse words with concrete phenomena that existed before we made up words to describe them.

[karlrschneider]

4. That's some really sick shit.

:eyes:

[Downtown Hound]

5. It's necessary to maintain the illusion of persecution

to keep themselves passionate about their cause. It's the same reason that the military industrial complex needs enemies. Without the enemies, there's no need for a half trillion dollar a year defense budget.

With fundie Christians, if there's no "evil" or "Satan" in the word, then there's really no need for a church, now, is there? Or to be more accurate, there's no need for a crusading church that has total control over its members. Controlling everything from their sexual practices to their right to an abortion to who they vote for.

Every dictator in the world has always used the persecution complex to get their followers worked up. Hitler used the Jews and the fact that Germany got screwed by the allies after World War 1. The Soviets used the Capitalists, and George Bush uses terrorists that hate us for our freedoms.

It's all scare tactics. And the weak and the gullible fall for them.

[treestar]

8. And to demand such total control that you have to die before you

just verbally renounce JC? I know JC says something in the Bible about how "they will persecute you" but that seems to be a major, major fault of the Christian religion. It demands that it be forced onto others and that it be considered "persecuted." That's a dangerous complex. Sort of like "they hate us for our freedoms."

[GreenPartyVoter]

9. That sounds AWFUL! I am so sorry your family got involved with that.

[krispos42]

10. It gets the blood going

The reason that Christianity and Islam have such radical followers is that they have a really good story. Sacrifice and hardship and persecution and bloodshed. There's a central character. That's why there are so few Jews. Christians have the death of a savior to focus on. Look at "Jesus Camp" and "Borat". Otherwise sane people getting all jiggly and speaking in tongues.

It also helps them feeling like victims, because then it's not their fault. It's somebody else's fault. They refuse to admit that they are "somebody else".

[treestar]

11. Not sure about Islam, but Christianity really does have that

persecution complex built in, along with that idea that it must be spread! Makes for imperialism.

To me, religions are like language, cultures all have their own. I don't know that any other culture's religion has that requirement Christianity seems to have for forcing it onto everyone else in the name of saving their souls.

I recall once running across something about how the Jewish religion lets other people have their own gods. I was impressed by that, raised in the Christian religion, where other people apparently are going to the devil if they have their own gods!

[rockymountaindem]

13. Judaism teaches that

people who do the right thing will be rewarded, whether or not they know they are doing the right thing or whether they know why. Even if one does the right thing for a selfish reason, it is still considered a good deed. This means that non-Jews who are good people are respected, while a member of the faith who sins frequently is looked down upon.

Another thing about Judaism is that it focuses on earthly reward and punishment. While it has rather abstract concepts about the afterlife, it is definately *not* the focus of one's earthly existance. Therefore, someone following mainline Jewish theology will expect punishment for sins and reward for good deeds in the lives which they are currently living.

[krispos42]

22. Boring stuff!

Four thousand years and there's only a handful of them! :-)

See, the nice, reasonable religions die out or are absorbed by the fanatics. Evolution!

Er, um, changes with time! Yeah, that's it.

[rockymountaindem]

24. There'd be more

but everybody keeps taking their frustration out on us :(

[spoony]

34. Except that, in many places, Christians are killed

and are persecuted. Including Iraq, now. Once again, not everything is about America. There's a big world out there.

[dansolo]

39. And whose fault is that? America.

The Christians in Iraq had it much better under Saddam than they will ever have it now, or in the foreseeable future.

[treestar]

44. Christians in Muslim countries also were traditionally left be

They might have been excluded from things, but they were not forced to convert either. Now that may be the case in some countries. I believe the Iranians made it so difficult for both Christians and Bahais that most have left that country.

[Ikonoklast]

50. Tariq Aziz was a Chaldean Christian

Saddam's former Prime Minister.

[treestar]

43. But there, they at least are going against their own culture

Not that it's right, but it's not right because any group is persecuted in those countries, if it's not an accepted group. But the Christian expects people to convert to the "right" religion and put up with that. They send missionaries out to specifically talk people into that position, for instance, in China. Yet a true love of mankind would not expect someone who is Chinese to put themselves in a state where they are in more danger than they already are.

[spoony]

52. The blame lies with the Chinese government, not

the Christians. How you could pawn off even a percent of the blame onto them using that twisted logic is astonishing. Basically, it's like saying: "If those gay rights groups didn't encourage people to be out of the closet, they wouldn't get bashed so much!" The fault is not with victims.

[treestar]

55. I was talking about the cultural superiority you have to have

to insist other people change to your way.

The Chinese are to blame, but for not allowing freedom of religion. They also persecute non-Christian religious groups, and they are just as wrong for that. That is not the point. The point is the arrogance of expecting someone to change your religion so that you will be out of your culture. If the Christians took over this country as they want to, you'd react how to any imaginary Muslim missionaries?

[Jade Fox]

14. Yes, a religion whose focal story is the persecution of a martyr....

is a set-up to attract those who feel persecuted themselves. Current Fundamentalist Christian power-mongers are exploiting that to the hilt, exaggerating (and inventing) threats to Christianity.

In a book I read long ago it was pointed out that the drama of Christ has another focal role, one that lurks in the subconscious--that of the persecutors of Christ. It's not an accident that Christians have often acted out that role. It's central to the story.

[treestar]

15. Fascinating

You wonder how many of the fundie leaders really identify with the persecutors and why Christian cultures often end up with a serious authoritarian/libertarian debate.

The martyr thing is there too - from the troops to the leaders, it is thought that to give up your own itnerests for others is inherently virtuous, but that somehow overlooks that these "others" might be the flip side of the coin, ready to take advantage of that.

[Jade Fox]

19. Righteous persecution is definitely a presence in the history...

of Christian behavior. We are seeing it now with those Christians making the fantastic claim that Jesus would support our actions in Iraq because Muslims are an threat (I'm guessing here about the logic they're using). Isn't that similar to the justification used for killing Christ, that he was a threat?

The author I read made the point that when a philosophy/religion is based on one central myth or story, all the roles in that story will inevitably be acted out by those using that religion/philosophy as the guiding principal of their behavior.

[ikojo]

36. Jews also do not prosylitize

due to centuries of Christian persecution. It was a crime during Roman times for Jews to seek converts to Judaism (the crime was called Judaizing) and of course was punishable by death. People can convert to Judaism but you will not see Jews going door to door or begging for converts on TV.

[treestar]

46. Is it only due to Christian persecution or is it just built into the religion

itself? Are you saying that without that persecution, Jews would proselytize?

In America, why don't they? They would be safe to do it here, I assert. Though I'm sure you'll tell me differently, but at least the First Amendment would stand for them and I don't see how any majority of Christians in America would be able to get around that (and Americans in spite of their claims are too secular to rise up in the streets over Jews proselytizing - The only ones who would whine about it are the ones who whine already about people being non-Christian).

[ikojo]

61. It's primarily due to Christian persecution that

Jews do not seek converts. Prior to the Christianization of the Romans Jews did seek converts.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/109/story_10994_1.html


snip

But we sure used to. Most Jews today may not be aware of it, but Judaism has a long history of not only welcoming, but encouraging gentiles to become Jewish. From the day Abraham picked up a flint and performed his own circumcision, thus becoming Judaism's first convert, ancient Israelites openly spread their teachings among the nations they encountered.

Jewish proselytizing was so successful, it's estimated that by the first century C.E. fully 10 percent of the Roman Empire was Jewish, close to 8 million people.

snip

Jews only stopped open proselytism because of pressure from Christian and then Muslim rulers, beginning in 407 C.E. when the Roman Empire outlawed conversion to Judaism under penalty of death. But the internal, theological impetus to be "a light unto the nations" (Isaiah 42:6) persisted through the centuries, albeit undercover, advancing and retreating along with Jewish fortunes in the Diaspora.

[Jade Fox]

12. Maybe it's the classic response to a majority having.....

their "right" to dominate threatened. Christians are a huge majority in this country, so any claims that they're being persecuted definitely are delusions.

[JHB]

25. That's part of it, but it's more complicated...

...because while Christians are a majority in this country, "Christians" (i.e., the sort of fundamentalist or evenagelical Protestant denominations (or perhaps its down to congregations) that put on plays like this) are not, so there's a certain built-in persecution complex when things don't go their way even when "majority rules".

Also, mixed in is the aformentioned usefulness to the leaders and projection (since it's what they'd do (sometimes proclaimed disturbingly loudly and clearly) were the roles reversed and they held absolute power over those who did not follow their particular denomination).

[treestar]

28. That's a good point - far out fundies like this would be a minority

Though a very loud one - look at the media attention Falwell types get. The influence is out of proportion to their numbers. But it is remarkable how they see themselves not as a minority among others, but as entitled to rule over every one else and thus "persecuted" when they find this is a free country and others can believe what they want.

[Matariki]

16. I saw an amazing film last week, with a similar theme

The film is called The Journals of Knud Rasmussen ( http://www.seattlefilm.org/festival/film/detail.aspx?id=16467&FID=32 ) by the director who made The Fast Runner.

It's about an Inuit shaman and his daughter and the clash of cultures they inevitably face.

During the course of the film he relates how he became a shaman and how his spirits came to him.

The final scene is devastatingly sad. His family escorts a couple of Danish anthropologists who have been staying with them to another Inuit settlement some distance away. When they arrive at the other settlement they find that the whole village has converted to Christianity, and is being more or less controlled by access to food by an elder who is particularly fond of christianity. The shaman and his family have clearly run out of provisions and it seems to not be hunting season where they are. But the village elder will only share food with those willing to embrace christianity - and eat some organ meat of an animal which is taboo to shamans and will cut off their ability forever to speak with their spirits.

One by one all his relatives leave their camp and go join the christians. In the final scene the shaman walks off a distance and meets with 3 people who are clearly his spirits. An old woman, a man and a younger woman. You realize that they have been in most of the scenes of the film, just sitting with him and his family.

He thanks them for all the help they've given him during his lifetime and that he loves them but has to send them away. They begin to wail, especially the old woman, who is the first spirit who came to him. It is absolutely soul wrenching. He yells at them over their wailing, 'go away, go away'. They walk off, turning to look back at him every few steps, wailing and not understanding. It's heartbreaking like you wouldn't believe - like he's sending his family away, or his dearest pet or something. Only worse.

In the end, after the visuals fade out, you hear him singing Christian hymns.

http://imdb.com/title/tt0478366/

[treestar]

17. So that the Christians would starve people unless they embrace

Christianity.

Not so far out of the realm of what they would claim themselves.

Without seeing how shallow their own belief must be that they have to use force to get the alleged (on the surface) agreement.

And this has the similar emphasis that just saying your are a Christian means more than anything else - deeds, loyalty to culture, etc.

[Matariki]

18. What was especially effective about the movie, I thought

was that the Christians were all Inuit too. It was more effective artistically than had the Christians been white missionaries. The two Danes were loyal to the shaman's family but also hungry. They didn't have anything to lose spiritually the way the shaman did.

[treestar]

32. Also emphasizes that essential feature of Christianity which seems to be

That it must be spread. You can't leave other people alone to worship their own gods, according to fundie doctrine. That's why they have missionaries, going about the world convincing people to abandon their own culture's version of God in favor of the Christian one, which in a way is just like insisting other people speak English rather than their own language.

Other religions don't seem to have this feature, or at least are not so insistent upon it. The Muslims the Christians claim to fear so much (more persecutors) could be said to be reacting to invasion by Christian cultures, not so much trying to spread Islam to Christian areas. Has anyone ever seen a missionary assignable to a non-Christian religion?

[Matariki]

49. Well there are *some* Muslims that want universal Islam

But they are fundamentalists, and fundamentalists have traits in common across all religions.

And I don't know if you've ever met any Nichiren Buddists - but they are ALL about increasing their membership. In fact they are told that for "every new person they introduced is the equivalent of chanting one million Nam-myoho-renge-kyo's."

[spoony]

54. I'm honestly dumbfounded by your posts in this thread

Seriously, you're saying things so far beyond anything ringing of truth that it's hard to believe you aren't taking the piss. The history of religion, not just Christianity as you seem to believe, is full of attempts, both successful and failed, to spread out.

Did you see my post about Iraqi Christians? They're currently being told by their Muslim neighbours that they can either pay a non-Muslim tax, give up their daughters for marriage to Muslim men, or get out of the country. Perhaps since they aren't strumming guitars you don't count these as missionaries of their religion, but I'd say it's pretty insistent nonetheless.

[Goat or Panic]

20. One would think

that living to continue to spread the gospel of Jesus would be more important than dying and letting "The Word" die with you. Then again so much of the christian right seems to be about the image rather than the actual message and belief.

Also, is anyone getting a Jim Jones, kool-aid vibe from all this stuff?

[treestar]

29. Definitely. The way they all went to their deaths and the things they

said in relation to it had that vibe of this world is evil and I will escape to be with God, Jesus, my already-dead relatives - no different in effect than the idea that the Muslim terrorists of 911 were able to fly themselves to the death to be in paradise with the 70 virgins, or like the case of the woman who killed her children because the world was an evil place and that killing them meant they would be going to that better place.

Religion has its place in society, but only to a certain point - people who get too far into it take it to the extreme of the logical conclusion (about being in a better place after you die) and thus being suicidal.

[zanne]

38. I find alot of similarities between extremist Muslims and...

Extremist Christians. It bothers me that so many fundies think that quoting from the bible is proving a "fact".

[treestar]

42. So true, they have more in common with each other than they realize

They'd be each other had they been born into each other's cultures!

[spoony]

33. Yet if they did that

There would be the same posters here saying, "I guess they didn't really believe what they said they did, look how easily they renounced it!"

And how about that standard for yourself? You're telling me that you would lie through your teeth and renounce everything sacred to you to spare your life? If some totalitarian government tells you to worship this or the next Bush you're going to do it?

You can call abandoning your beliefs to save your skin pragmatic, to me it reeks of old-fashioned cowardice.

[treestar]

45. It's pragmatic

It depends on the circumstances, I suppose. But then you'd just let them kill you? Or as this play had it, kill your friends in front of you? And not live to fight another day.

It's the people for whom some things are so sacred they'd die for it who cause the wars and pain in the world. The 911 hijackers, for instance, do you admit they were "courageous?"

Think how this play tried to make anti-Christianity so sacred to people they would kill and torture to stamp it out. Though I think that's absurd, nobody's ever going to care that much about stamping out Christianity or any religion, at least not in America. They are the ones more likely to do it. They tried to make their religion mandatory, but that idea was soon stamped out in each colony where they tried it.

Who cares if other people think you believe it or not? Why does Jesus care about that so much more than what happens to you, whom he is said to love?

Especially when it comes to something like this. Suppose I'm not sure if there is a God or not, or have doubts about the divinity of Jesus? (As Ben Franklin did, for instance). Then it makes it more likely I will take the pragmatic route.

[spoony]

53. Yes. I'm not a coward, ergo

no, I sure as hell wouldn't piss on my own ideals to live another day.

And your 9/11 analogy is so utterly insipid it doesn't really deserve a response, because unless you're totally out of touch with reality you already know that being killed because you are standing up for your beliefs is not QUITE the same as dying in the process of murdering people.

Your bizarre attempts to paint bravery as phony/dangerous/etc. also binds you to condemn civil rights leaders. After all, if those leaders like MLK really cared about black people, why would they ask them to put themselves in more danger by standing up for their rights? Sounds pretty ridiculous doesn't it?

[treestar]

56. It's not the same thing, because they were trying to improve their lives here

You're bringing up a separate issue.

They weren't going to die for civil rights, either, I don't see why for that you wouldn't try to live another day, especially in this country. It never came down to an out and out war. Which is the good thing about America. You can change things without having to put your life on the line.

What is wrong with 911 analogy? They died for their ideals, too. How brave. :sarcasm:

The main trouble with this play is the conflict would never really happen. But you're painting things in black and white, too.

It brought out the kook-aid drinking aspect of it, that this world is bad and you are going to a better world, etc. So that seemed unhealthy to me. You're confusing that with "standing for your beliefs." The people who drank the kook-aid at Jamestown were standing up for their beliefs, too, in a way.

[spoony]

58. Things you described in that play have and do happen.

It won't happen in America tomorrow or probably ever, but again: it isn't just about America! These scenes are not made up, they happen.

And degrading civil rights pioneers by saying they weren't willing to die for their cause is both incorrect and loathsome.

And the hijackers didn't die for their beliefs, if they did they wouldn't have been whooping it up at strip clubs beforehand. They killed for some sort of belief, and that isn't courageous, of course. Some common sense in you must recognise that.

[Tsiyu]

23. I don't know about where any of you live

but there are "christian" churches every five feet around here.

Okay, maybe every 10 feet.


Persecution my ass.


As for some notion of "punishment" for denying Jesus Christ we have the Bobble to guide us:

Peter denied knowing Christ three times after they'd hauled Jesus' booty to jail.

All Jesus did after he came back to visit was ask Peter if he loved him.



Three times. Which I always thought was kind of funny...




"before the cock crow thrice..." and all that.

"Peter, lovest thou me?" was the response, not starvation or death. Jesus didn't kill the disciple who denied him.

These people not only have no idea of the scope of their own scripture, they are seriously mentally ill.

[treestar]

57. That's the best point on the thread - you know the fundies never pay

attention to that side of Jesus. He did let that go, and not only that, put Peter in charge of the church (per the Catholics).

It's as if the fundies only like the strict, punishing God, and strangely enough, that makes Jesus not such a good one for them.

[Tsiyu]

62. Thank you for those kind words

As I was driving home from work I decided to stop at a local convenience store. There on the corners of the intersection stood a bunch of clean cut middle-aged to older men taking turns holding signs of DOOM!!!!! and Scream-preaching to passersby.

Yesm these guys who embrace the Hellfire and Brimstone Method just get off on trying to terrify people. This whole "if-you-renounce-Jesus-he-will-renounce-you" thing is yet another way to make the sheep "fearful" of doing anything wrong.

They misread the spirit of the law which is: If you are ashamed of the way i want you to be- loving, caring for the poor, caring for the least of these, gentle, non-violent - I will be ashamed of you.

The fundy control freak preachers teach them that the world will use this "law" (to not be ashamed of jesus) against them, so the sheep use every opportunity to SAY the word Jesus yet take no opportunity to actually LIVE as Jesus expected.

It cracks me up because these people don't even know what they are supposed to stand for anymore. Still, they scream-preach at the rest of us trying to convince us how wrong WE are.


Heal yourself. That's enough for any one of us to do.

Standing on a street corner screaming "Jesus" and "HELL!!!!!!!!!" over and over is just pathetic. Like that play you had to watch. It's the same terror tactic used in either case.

Thanks for this thread. :hi:

[KharmaTrain]

26. From One Persecuted Religion To Another...

In college I met my first real fundie. Having come from am almost exclusively Jewish neighborhood, I had never encountered a true holy-rollin' bapstist until I went off to college. I'll never forget when I informed a dorm-mate that I was Jewish, he looked at me and said "I know how it must be to be a Jew...being persecuted all the times like us Xtians". I shook my head for a second...now aren't there 30 or more million Baptists in this country and 85% of the population professes to be christian of some sort? He told me that most christians aren't really christians as they're not "true believers" (first time I had heard that term)...then he went on to inquire about "which tribe" I belonged to. I almost felt he was checking me out for horns. The only other time I had felt as creeped out was when I unknowing went to a party that turned out to be a bible study/recruitment group.

But then at least this play doesn't have the Jews being the persecutors or enablers like that little passion play they put on in Oberamergau. I'll take progress where I can find it.

[treestar]

31. The weird thing is how they focus on the persecution being

always about their belief and not them.

I suppose that if an individual Jew could save his life or another's by lying about it and claiming not to be Jewish, that the act of doing so would not deprive him or her of his membership in the religion? Whereas for the fundie the insistence of their belief to others is the essential thing. If they believed, but just denied it to the antichrists policement to save each other, that's not good enough. It's not just that you believe it, it's also just as important that other people believe you believe it.

[KharmaTrain]

35. My European Relatives Had To Do That

It was a little thing called the Holocoust...it made most of the papers. There are many stories of Jews who had to lie about their faith or face immediate death by either the Nazis or one of many "partisan" groups that either hated Jews or saw them as "bounty".

These people have no clue what persecution is...to have your town ransacked by government troops or not being able to get a job or live where one wants to...purely based on their faith.

Somehow I see this as a "loyalty" game...that somehow they have to create a dire world that only their faith is their salvation...a game of total inclusion that uses their "persecution" as one of the few ties that bind.

Cheers...

[treestar]

41. Exactly, and who could blame them?

Why not deny it if you can and try to live to see another day? Yet the fundie Christian sees it as "let them kill you rather than just say you're not to save your hide." That's kind of sick.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

27. That would make a great dinner playhouse offering

I'll have the loaves and fishes. ...What do you mean, you're all out?

Seriously though, that sounds like terribly bad theater. Did the audience like it?

[treestar]

30. I don't think the audience was especially thrilled

I'd think it would be especially fundie, but it didn't seem to be. The theater was only half full. At least ten of them were Dad's relatives, so one might conclude that most of the audience was related to or friends of the cast.

They got applause at the end but nothing extreme. A couple of the actors sounded like they were reading more than acting - it was local talent, so not everybody was all that great, but that'd be typical of these productions anyway.

[zanne]

37. There are themes that run through Christian Right plays...

These are the same types of stories the nuns told me in grade school. One of the most popular themes, of course, is the persecuted Christian theme. I was in grade school in the early 60's, so the people persecuting Christians were always Communists. One oldie but goodie is the story of soldiers charging into your home, lining up your family and making you choose a member of your family over your religion. (Torture was always involved in these sadistic fantasies). In the end, if anybody in your family was still alive it was only because they were cowardly and would certainly go to hell.
My second favorite theme is "Bad Things Happen To People Who Don't Go To Mass". There are several stories like this, but the one that still encourages standing ovations at Christian plays is the one where a family goes on vacation, decides not to go to church on Sunday morning, goes for a boatride and drowns. Of course, this family goes to hell because they skipped church.

And people wonder why I left the church.

[treestar]

47. I was lucky and Dad did not send me to Catholic School

But from him and the rest of his family, I heard horror stories about nuns! Usually they were talking too much in class though, so their stories tended more towards discipline aimed at them, which was stuff that would never be allowed today.

The Communists really did persecute Christians to some extent, so maybe the anti-red hysteria had some religious factor in it.

[ComerPerro]

40. They cannot begin to imagine what it is like to even hold a minority religious view

let alone be persecuted for it.

[johnaries]

48. What unimaginative techniques!

How about if the spit on, pissed on, and then tore up the Bible right in front of him?
What if they forced him to do things that would guarantee he went to Hell?

You know, like they do in GITMO.

[JerseygirlCT]

51. They do seem to be attracted to that, don't they?

It's really not martyrdom if you're sacrificing someone else's life, is it?

But that also seems to be typical of a certain mindset.