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Onceuponalife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-08-07 02:06 AM
Original message
I love Ward Churchill
I saw him speak in SF last year at the height of the brouhaha over his book. He thinks the 9/11 attacks were a case of the chickens coming home to roost. I agree. Who's with me?
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-08-07 02:12 AM
Response to Original message
1. I think he is a lying academic fraud, so I guess I am not with you
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Onceuponalife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-08-07 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. That's OK it would hardly be the first time I heard that
Last I checked the jury was still out on those charges. Thanks for posting, though.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-08-07 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. The jury came in as to the facts. They are in the penalty phase now
I hold academic integrity quite dear. Even though he says the right things in some areas, he is still a fraud
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-08-07 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-08-07 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Self Delete
Edited on Fri Jun-08-07 06:59 AM by Solo_in_MD
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Crabby Appleton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-08-07 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
13. I agree, he's a lying academic fraud, a con artist nt
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-08-07 02:24 AM
Response to Original message
3. I agree with you both. nt
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-08-07 02:34 AM
Response to Original message
4. Horrors! I have found it quite unprofitable to argue this question, even here at DU.
I, like you, find his line of questioning and conclusions cogent and appealing. The approbation and condemnation heaped upon him, all too often by people who have so obviously not actually read or listened to him without a preordained opinion, I have found quite mystifying.

Until this intellectually challenging gentleman is given an audience beyond a few tribal "troublemakers," this nation is doomed to keep on making the same stupid mistakes and looking for cheese down the same blind labyrinths that have gotten us into this mess and most of the other messes in our history.

We may both be roasted to a turn before morning, but I am so pleased to see at least one other person who has accomplished the process of ignoring one's own hackneyed opinions and actually listening and evaluating someone else's thinking with an open mind. Way cool.
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Onceuponalife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-08-07 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Cheers EST
I haven't been around DU in a long time. I didn't know there were other threads on this topic. It's OK, though. I welcome debate and have debated this topic on other message boards and have been criticized for supporting him. So I'm used to it. I understand people's misgivings, though...
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Phrogman Donating Member (940 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-08-07 02:42 AM
Response to Original message
6. Somebody recommended your thread....
maybe it was me.

Ward kicks ass.
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Onceuponalife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-08-07 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. thanx phrogman
I thought I was all alone up here.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-08-07 03:13 AM
Response to Original message
8. His students like him.
He's a great teacher. But he made a big mistake. EOM
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wellst0nev0ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-08-07 05:36 AM
Response to Original message
10. Yeah, This Country Totally Had It Coming
But seriously, we could do without men like Ward Churchill. But it's interesting how he all of a sudden became a bete noir of the radical reich nearly four years after he published his infamous words.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-08-07 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. Its not those statements that bother me, its the academic fraud
He is like the congressman who was just indicted. We need to hold our selves to a higher standard
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wellst0nev0ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-08-07 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. I Wonder Why We Even Have To Worry About Him In The First Place?
I mean, who ever heard of this guy until the reichwingers drew a desperate straw in a sorry attempt to paint liberals as some sort of America-haters? Why are liberals even in the position to defend him in the first place?
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-08-07 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
14. I think Ward Churchill is a fucking asshole with no sense of decency.
Whether or not I agree with his politics doesn't change the fact that he's still an asshole with no sense of decency.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-08-07 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
17. Ward Churchill is a tactless, academically dishonest gasbag
Edited on Fri Jun-08-07 09:30 AM by Odin2005
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Onceuponalife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. read some of his books wellstonevoter
and you might see why people should care what he has to say. I see a lot of ad hominem attacks but a little short on specifics. Why is he an asshole exactly....?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. He didn't have to call the average worker in the twin towers Nazis to get his point across.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Edit: I took the flamebaite in the OP; where's the Scope? nt
Edited on Sat Jun-09-07 01:18 PM by blondeatlast
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chaska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
35. He didn't call them Nazis...
He called them "little Eichmanns", meaning that they were facilitators of our fascist gov't. And since the world trade center contained CIA offices and Wall Street stock broker concerns he wasn't wrong.

...to give a very much oversimplified response.

Google and read his own response to this point.
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John Kerry VonErich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
20. Ward Churchill is nothing more than a fake indian.
Ask anyone from AIM.
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StudentsMustUniteNow Donating Member (859 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
21. I am not with you and I think his comments on 9/11 are beyond the pale
Regardless of what you think the cause of those attacks is, those were our fellow citizens who were murdered on that day. Let's show some respect.

We're Americans for God's sake.

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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
22. Sorry, I completely disagree
Ward's a liar and it's hard to take anything he says seriously.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
24. Didn't a certain board close this weekend? Lots of old news getting posted.
Just sayin...
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Prepare the Mods--incoming...
:thumbsup: :rofl:
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Anyone press the alert button yet?
Edited on Sat Jun-09-07 01:15 PM by Nikki Stone1
:)
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Big 10-4. Unfortuantely, I took the bait above.
I didn't think enough about this until your post, actually.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. There have been a couple of posts like that: one on Sheehan yesterday
Edited on Sat Jun-09-07 01:22 PM by Nikki Stone1
Pretty obvious really.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
26. Last year? And you're just getting to this now? nt
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Dave From Canada Donating Member (932 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
30. What's the deal with that guy, is he actually Native or not?
Also, I can sort of understand his chickens coming home to roost comment regarding U.S. policy over the years, but calling the people who worked in the WTC little eichmanns is asinine. So I guess I'm also not with you.
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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
31. WC is so old hat
We're all about Paris Hilton now.

Why are you so behind the power curve? Curious, that.
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
33. He's a man who isn't afraid to tell the truth.
Because of the suffering his people endured, he can understand why 9-11 was allowed to happen.
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chaska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
34. They damn near crucified WC for saying the same things that Ron Paul...
can now say in, of all places, a Republican debate.

Ward Churchill is the man!
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Dave From Canada Donating Member (932 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Really? He's the man? The victims of 911 are little eichmanns? Maybe that's how you feel about
the Americans killed on 911, but speaking as a Canadian, the Canadians that were killed were not eichmanns, and fuck you to anyone who thinks that way.
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Onceuponalife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 02:06 AM
Response to Original message
37. I was waiting for someone to trot out the "not Indian enough"
accusation. This is so tired and completely beside the point. A lie started by a discontented faction of AIM. You can find plenty of support for Ward at AIM. Russell Means, hello? Also he did noyt call average workers "little Eichmanns". His own words:

Finally, I have never characterized all the September 11 victims as "Nazis." What I said was that the "technocrates of empire" working in the World Trade Center were the equivalent of "little Eichmanns." Adolf Eichmann was not charged with direct killing but with ensuring the smooth running of the infrastructure that enabled the Nazi genocide. Similarly, German industrialists were legitimately targeted by the Allies.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is not disputed that the Pentagon was a military target, or that a CIA office was situated in the World Trade Center. Following the logic by which U.S. Defense Department spokespersons have consistently sought to justify target selection in places like Baghdad, this placement of an element of the American "command and control infrastructure" in an ostensibly civilian facility converted the Trade Center itself into a "legitimate" target. Again following U.S. military doctrine, as announced in briefing after briefing, those who did not work for the CIA but were nonetheless killed in the attack amounted to no more than "collateral dammage." If the U.S. public is prepared to accept these "standards" when thy are routinely applied to other people, they should be not surprised when the same standars are applied to them.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It should be emphasized that I applied the "little Eichmanns" characterization only to those described as "technicians." Thus, it was obviously not directed to the children, janitors, food service workers, firemen and random passers-by killed in the 9-1-1 attack. According to Pentagon logic, were simply part of the collateral damage. Ugly? Yes. Hurful? Yes. And that's my point. It's no less ugly, painful or dehumanizing a description when applied to Iraqis, Palestinians, or anyone else. If we ourselves do not want to be treated in this fashion, we must refuse to allow others to be similarly devalued and dehumanized in our name.




It seems there are well meaning people on the left who have fallen for the conservative hate/spin machine of disinformation. This is a guy whose meassage we should be embracing instead of tearing down.
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Dave From Canada Donating Member (932 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. It's a false choice. You can disagree with the Pentagon and Churchill.
And who are these technicians you speak of? You actually think that any technicians (whoever that refers to) are little eichmanns? I'm sorry, but it's hateful language, and I'm sorry your ideology blinds you to that fact.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
39. He's a fraud and a world-class asshat. Screw him. eom
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