a NON- ad- hominem exposure of Lou DOBBS: "mixes opinions and UNtruths"

[UTUSN]

*******QUOTE*******

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/30/business/30leonhardt.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&ref=media&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin

Truth, Fiction and Lou Dobbs

By DAVID LEONHARDT
Published: May 30, 2007
The whole controversy involving Lou Dobbs and leprosy started with a “60 Minutes” segment a few weeks ago.

... Over the last few years, Lou Dobbs has transformed himself into arguably this country’s foremost populist. It’s an odd role, given that he spent the 1980s and ’90s buttering up chief executives on CNN, but he’s now playing it very successfully. He has become a voice for the real economic anxiety felt by many Americans. ....

For one thing, Mr. Dobbs has a somewhat flexible relationship with reality. He has said, for example, that one-third of the inmates in the federal prison system are illegal immigrants. That’s wrong, too. According to the Justice Department, 6 percent of prisoners in this country are noncitizens (compared with 7 percent of the population). For a variety of reasons, the crime rate is actually lower among immigrants than natives.

Second, Mr. Dobbs really does give airtime to white supremacy sympathizers. Ms. Cosman, who is now deceased, was a lawyer and Renaissance studies scholar, never a medical doctor or a leprosy expert. She gave speeches in which she said that Mexican immigrants had a habit of molesting children. Back in their home villages, she would explain, rape was not as serious a crime as cow stealing. The Southern Poverty Law Center keeps a list of other such guests from “Lou Dobbs Tonight.”

Finally, Mr. Dobbs is fond of darkly hinting that this country is under attack. He suggested last week that the new immigration bill in Congress could be the first step toward a new nation — a “North American union” — that combines the United States, Canada and Mexico. On other occasions, his program has described a supposed Mexican plot to reclaim the Southwest. In one such report, one of his correspondents referred to a Utah visit by Vicente Fox, then Mexico’s president, as a “Mexican military incursion.”

When I asked Mr. Dobbs about this yesterday, he said, “You’ve raised this to a level that frankly I find offensive.”

The most common complaint about him, at least from other journalists, is that his program combines factual reporting with editorializing. But I think this misses the point. Americans, as a rule, are smart enough to handle a program that mixes opinion and facts. The problem with Mr. Dobbs is that he mixes opinion and untruths. He is the heir to the nativist tradition that has long used fiction and conspiracy theories as a weapon against the Irish, the Italians, the Chinese, the Jews and, now, the Mexicans. ....

E-mail: [email protected]

********UNQUOTE*******

[VP505]

1. I still think

David Leonhardt is full of crap, and am glad that we have Mr Dobbs talking about the effect of free trade agreements and illegal immigration on middle class working Americans.

[UTUSN]

7. Merriam Webster definition of "ad hominem"

An example would be calling LEONHARDT "full of crap" without addressing the EVIDENCE he provided SO in full that it would violate the copyright guidelines to post it all.

A counter example of ad hominem is to praise DOBBS for "talking about the effect of free trade agreements and illegal immigration..." IN THE FACE of the UNtruths provided in the article about his "talking".

*******QUOTE*********

Main Entry: 1ad ho·mi·nem
Pronunciation: (')ad-'hä-m&-"nem, -n&m
Function: adjective
Etymology: New Latin, literally, to the person
1 : appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
2 : marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made

***********UNQUOTE**********

[glowing]

12. I agree with you. Unless you actually watch Dobbs and you

and only listen to comments about his program, you would tend to think he was out on a fringe. It was the same with watching Scarborough last night. Had I not actually watched the Rosie drama with my own eyes, I would believe Rosie was some crazed, fat, ugly lesbian out to get young pretty pregnant blonde's. (On a side--I think they are attacking Rosie so much because she's on to something and God forbid the people wake the fuck up).

Anyway. Dobbs makes some good points. I may not agree with all of them, but he does seem to be the only one covering this seeming mergence of 3 govt in North America. Shoot, even my shampoo bottle says made in North America now and I read an article in wallstreet journal (don't ask me the edition) with a piece on the coming Amero... so I don't know. It doesn't surprise me corporate Amerika wants to take all and enslave the rest of the world. Nothing new about corporations trying to bully everyone else.

[Jim Warren]

24. LOL

"Had I not actually watched the Rosie drama with my own eyes.........."
has to be one of the best lines I've read week. (the part about her being onto something ain't bad either)

Good post.

[fasttense]

2. He had the courage to criticize the bushes two years before Olbermann's Countdown.

He had the guts to expose bushes policies for the corporatist agenda it was way before Air America ever went on the air. He has shown that he is not afraid of this administration, which is a lot more than the New York Times and their Judith Miller WMD gal can say.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

3. Thanks UTUSN. K&R

Lou Dobbs is the face of respectable racism and xenophobia.

[fasttense]

5. Ah, the inevitable racist card.

I was waiting for someone to throw that down.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

6. If Lou walks like a duck, talks like a duck...

[originalpckelly]

10. Of course that whole thing where he couldn't tell if someone was a white supremacist...

or an anti-illegal immigration activist is no reason to call him a racist.

Incidentally, that might be a sign to normal people that they should step back and look at themselves and their beliefs, but of course for Mr. Dobbs it didn't.

I would also suggest that anyone against illegal immigration really try and get to the core of why they are against it.

[glowing]

16. You do realize his wife is Mexican-American, right?

[UTUSN]

17. So? Alberto GONZALES and Clarence THOMAS are Rethugs. n/t

[glowing]

21. Ok, I guess that's where I differ from most on DU. I am #1 a

woman of the race called human living on the planet earth. My heart and compassion is to see the suffering of all to end. 2nd I am a citizen of the United States of America. I take my constitutional liberties as just that, my liberty!

After that I join certain functions like Code Pink, Democratic Party, PTA... And they mean something to me and become a passion for me, but they in no way allow me to close of my mind, my heart, and my ears to the human race. It is that dividing stance that is breaking our country up, not Dobbs, not Clarence Thomas, not Alberto Gonzalez... it is us. It is anger that is running amok over compassion and in that anger we are hurting people. We are hurting ourselves.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. Uh huh.

Sure.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. So? Strom Thurmond's mistress was Black.

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

4. Dobbs brings attention to issues that have been ignored in elections

Issues like free trade and economic insecurity. Come election time, the Repubs bring out the God, gays, and guns to bash us on the head and the corporate donors tell our side to shut up about the plight of the American working and middle classes.

Dobbs brings these important economic ISSUES out to the forefront.

No, he's not perfect and he can get out of hand; but at least he's drawing attention to real bread and butter issues.

[UTUSN]

9. So what's stopping him from talking ISSUES withOUT mixing in the rest? n/t

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

13. No one's perfect (William Jennings Bryan, FDR)

WJB fought hard against the teaching of evolution despite his genuinely progressive record. FDR interned American citizens of Japanese descent.

Both were ideal men.

We can't always agree on everything, but we're united in our overarching progressive/populist values.

[UTUSN]

14. But some imperfections are uglier than others.

Hey!!1 HITLER sponsored the invention of the Volkswagen and LOVED dogs, *and* (depending on taste) was a vegan!!1


Baby. Bathwater.

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

23. Hitler's ideology was Naziism

William Jennings Bryan's was progressive populism. FDR's was progressive liberalism.

You're looking at specifics, I'm looking at the big picture.

[Jim Warren]

25. Heh

Funny, in a thread with the given subject title, Adolph is conjured by post #14. Just saying is all.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

27. Why not?

Dobbs is stealing rhetoric right out of mein kampf.

[UTUSN]

31. Care to explain? I was not calling DOBBS hitler. & this thread was not

about "immigration" OR "leprosy", both of which topics were VEHICLES for documenting the UNTRUTHFULNESS of DOBBS's reporting. The article was, I repeat, about FALSE info being put out there by DOBBS on more than one subject.

I don't understand: Were you thinking I was ad-homineming and calling DOBBS "Hitler"? The poster I was replying to was claiming that good people can have some "imperfections," thereby minimizing the FALSITY in Dobbs's "reporting." My example was to show that bad people (HITLER) could have some (little) good deeds.

[Norquist Nemesis]

8. He made my list of daily shows when he was listing the companies

that were shipping jobs overseas and exposing them. Then, he went to the illegal immigration mantra. Unfortunately, Dobbs' approach to "fixing this thing" would be much more appealing to me if he'd start railing on the businesses that seek and hire illegal immigrant workers. Push enforcement of that from every corner of the U.S. and it would make a bigger dent in "the problem" than anything, IMO.

I keep telling my husband (who's sick of hearing it) that no one takes a job they're not offered.

[originalpckelly]

11. I know. People also seem to think someone wouldn't be willing to work for more!

What dumbass would do that? If you're offered more to do the same work any idiot would take that in a heartbeat. Wage depression is not the immigrants fault, it's the damn employers who don't want to pay their employees more.

[glowing]

15. I agree.. Dobbs wants a fence, I want policy that enforces the

employers more responsibility.

And you know what. I would work on a farm. It would have to be an organic farm, but I would do the work. Of course, it is impossible to live off of the pay, so I'm stuck inside all day under the din of florescent lighting (which has been shown to cause increases in depression because it is not natural like the sunlight.

[TahitiNut]

28. He's the only one who's covered what I regard are the three priorities.

Even if he might get them out of order.

As I see it, the priorities in enforcement of WHATEVER immigration laws we enact are
(1) draconian penalties for the worst of the employers up to the 'corporate death penalty' for the worst.
(2) HEAVY political pressure on neighboring nations to effect EQUITABLE economic systems and stamp out the denial of education and employment to their least advantaged. Mexico is obviously more at fault than Canada.
(3) Enforcement of WHATEVER immigration laws we, in a democratic fashion, enact. That includes borders and visa overstays.


It makes absolutely NO SENSE whatsoever that we enact laws and then fail to enforce them as enacted and equitably. When the written laws are mere sop to the electorate and then they're corruptly enforced in a manner that benefits the wealthiest and fucks over the working class ... then we LOSE our democracy.

Thus, the basic tenet is that we enforce the laws BEFORE we pretend that changing them is anything bu more corruption.

I strongly favor immigration ... legal immigration. I also favor laws that give preference to people with demonstrably strong tendencies to favor liberal governance. Just as I was NOT interested in offering refuge to NAZIS fleeing the fall of Hitler's Germany, I'm NOT interested in giving refuge to the corrupt elitists fleeing the overthrow of strongman fascist regimes (e.g. Batista, Pinochet) in Latin America as their countries move to the left in governance.

[Zookeeper]

34. Watch out, Tahiti...

You're making too much sense.

[Zookeeper]

18. Leonhardt's article is an opinion piece....

I read it yesterday and noted that he makes statements that he doesn't back up with facts, like, "Those immigrants, remember, are largely non-English speakers without a high school diploma. They have probably hurt the wages of native-born high school dropouts and made everyone else better off."

Oh, yeah? How about American citizens who worked in skilled construction jobs? And why is Leonhardt so quick to dismiss "native-born high school dropouts" as if they have less right to make a living than Leonhardt or citizens of another country who are here illegally?

Smacks of elitism to me.

On edit: Oh, I forgot. Poor black and poor white people aren't as deserving of jobs as poor "brown" people.
:sarcasm:

[UTUSN]

20. You cited ONE bit that might be an opinion. It might also be TRUE.

You skipped all the EVIDENCE he cited that disproved the specific DOBBS untruths. And your gratuitous sarcasm at the end undercuts any point you were making.

[Zookeeper]

22. I'm not debating his point about Dobbs....

I'm just pointing out that he is making the same sort of un-supported generalization that he is criticizing Dobbs for making.

He presented his article as factual and then slipped his own opinion in at the end of it.

My sarcasm was simply to express my irritation with the tunnel vision of people who are quick to throw around accusations of racism against "brown" (their term) people, yet somehow manage to overlook the effect that illegal workers (and the people who hire them) have on the wages of poor black people. And the attitude that poor "brown" people who here illegally from Latin America are more deserving than poor Americans of every color who have been under served by our educational system and who live in communities of deeply entrenched poverty.

[UTUSN]

29. Uh, no. You said "it" (the whole thing) was "an opinion piece."

You furnished ONE bit as an example, and when you elaborated, you did not furnish MORE bits of "opinion." How much, percentagewise, does it take to make the whole thing an opinion piece?

"He presented his article as factual" - uh, doing so with a chockful of facts, would it be?

"and then slipped his own opinion in at the end of it." The author himself said that he didn't have a problem with mixing editorial with opinion, but that he was pointing out UNtrue stuff in DOBBS.

There is NO "tunnel vision...throw around accusations of racism against 'brown' people..." It is THERE, for sure in the NON-registered supporters of the Minutemen and other such groups.

Your post goes on to pit Blacks against Browns, while overlooking poor, White laborers. YOU are casting the whole thing in a racist context.

My poor, little ONE voice has been saying over and over that there are LEGITIMATE concerns in the immigration issue about "national security," Labor rights and wages, and orderly/lawful immigration, but, as you show so clearly, all of these things tend to be eclipsed and MIXED in with racism. Racism EXISTS in many of the most outspoken anti-immigrant persons, who USE the other, legitimate issues as COVERS for what REALLY motivates them (racism).

[Zookeeper]

33. Ohhhh. Your "poor, little ONE voice..."

This is a discussion for adults and I already have three emotional teens to argue with.

So, I'm done except to say that I have no desire to pit workers against workers. The reality is that illegal labor is suppressing wages for workers on the lowest end of the scale and NOT caring about that is elitist and demonstrating a bias toward workers who are here illegally, JUST because they are from Latin America.

I have just as many valid reasons to care about the African-American community, as you do to care enough to give preference to citizens of Latin American countries who are working here illegally.

[UTUSN]

30. Actually, the article in the o.p. was about DOBBS's truthfulness or lack, NOT immigration

Actually, the immediate vehicle for the TRUTH content was mostly about how he was "reporting" (FALSELY) on LEPROSY, of all things.

[TahitiNut]

32. "It's an Illegal Employer Problem"

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0705-23.htm