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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 07:59 AM
Original message
"some don't see an impeachable offense in what Bush has done"
Edited on Wed May-30-07 08:22 AM by pat_k
http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/news/nation/17292119.htm">Democrats in Washington want to keep impeachment off the table
By Steven Thomma
McClatchy Newspapers
May. 28, 2007

. . .
There are both policy and political reasons that Democratic leaders are risking the anger of their base.

One is that some don't see an impeachable offense in what Bush has done, what the Constitution calls "high crimes and misdemeanors." They might find such evidence in any of the many congressional investigations, but they haven't yet. . .


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/30/washington/30interrogate.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print">Advisers Fault Harsh Methods in Interrogation
By SCOTT SHANE and MARK MAZZETTI
New York Times
May 30, 2007


WASHINGTON, May 29 — As the Bush administration completes secret new rules governing interrogations, a group of experts advising the intelligence agencies. . .

. . .the experts say, interrogation methods — possibly the most important source of information on groups like Al Qaeda — are a hodgepodge that date from the 1950s, or are modeled on old Soviet practices.


It's enough to make a sane person tear out their hair. It is enough to bring a hero to say "George Bush will never be impeached. . . Good-bye America ...you are not the country that I love"

http://www.reportingcivilrights.org/authors/bio.jsp?authorId=60">James W. Poling would be proud. The USA is no longer a "backward nation" when it comes to "the realm of torture." Bush brings the "exceptionally meritorious performance" of the Soviet Cheka to our shores.

http://www.boomerbible.com/CourtesyReview.php3?chp=BrotherlyLove.inc&ChT=Brotherly%20Love">Brotherly Love
James W. Poling

http://www.instapunk.com/archives/InstaPunkArchive.php3?a=122">Per RFLaird this essay originally appeared in Esquire, November 1936

. . .it is encouraging to find this isolated proof that there still exist in those countries people who are endeavoring to restore torture to the dignified and artistic position it once occupied.

In turning to the land of the free I am forced to admit, unpatriotic though it may sound, that we in America have not taken advantage of our opportunities. In the realm of torture we are a backward nation, more notably for our vim and vigor than for our finesse. . .

It is easy to assign credit for the Soviet's exceptionally meritorious performance. In the beginning there was Lenin, who said, "In the beginning there was Lenin, who said, "Do you think we can remain in power without having recourse to the most brutal methods?" There was a man who clearly understood how to retain office.

Lenin's attitude led, indirectly, to the formation of "The Extraordinary Commission for Combating Counter-Revolution, Sabotage, and the Dereliction of Duty," more commonly known as the Cheka and unquestionably the most murderous and bloodthirsty organization in the history of the modem world. With its informers, secret police, torturers, executioners, and charnel-houses located in every district of Russia the Cheka was a marvel of efficiency, as any organization which can torture and execute 1,761,065 people in the course of eight years must be. The Cheka never missed a bet. It had an executive known as the Director of Corpse Transportation and never threw away a body before making sure that the gold teeth had been extracted. . .


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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
1. this gets me sick,
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
2. The elusive "some" of poor journalism
I really wish that instead of saying "some don't see..." or "some think that...", a reporter would just write "now here's some shit I just made up to fill column inches and sneak in my own point of view."
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I don't think it necessary to always name names to get the message out
He is absolutely correct. Some don't see it feasible, some do but the bottom line is while we wait for some to make up their minds America sinks lower and lower in esteem. Some care about it, while others only care about semantics...
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Some? Who? Give us names
Instead of the nebulous "they" who are out to subvert everything we do. They're public figures and their statements are on record. It's not like it would be violating national security to name names, so name them.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Some quotes from an April article in Post #6
Edited on Wed May-30-07 09:01 AM by pat_k
The article doesn't cite any "nothing impeachable yet" quotes, but the quotes cited are appalling enough.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1001793&mesg_id=1002029
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. "Impeach Bush chorus growing" (April 5, 2007). . .
Edited on Wed May-30-07 08:56 AM by pat_k
. . .from of all places the Washington Times, offers some specific quotes that demonstrate the depth of their denial. Perhaps they got so many WTF??!! calls in response they figure they'd better keep their lunacy "on background."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20070405-071057-7450r.htm">Impeach Bush chorus growing, Dems say
By Christina Bellantoni
The Washington Times
Published April 5, 2007


Congressional Democrats say their constituents are clamoring for something even the most liberal lawmakers promise they won't pursue: President Bush's impeachment.

"I get one call after another saying, 'Impeach the president,'" said Rep. John P. Murtha,

Democrats say their constituents also want them to target such dministration figures as Vice President Dick Cheney, Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales and Karl Rove, Mr. Bush's chief political adviser.

Rep. Diane Watson, California Democrat, said she hears calls for impeachment from every crowd.

"They say, 'Democrats: Do something. Get Cheney, Karl Rove, Alberto Gonzales.' They are saying impeachment. I am hearing that more and more and more," said Ms. Watson. . . Although she said she would support impeachment, she speculated that it is "not a strategy our new leadership would want to start with."

An online "Impeach Bush" movement has received 861,000 votes, and the president's approval ratings hover below 30 percent nationally, according to polls.

Few of those surveys ask about impeachment, and a Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg Poll conducted in January showed less than 1 percent think a Bush impeachment should be a "top priority" for Congress. (BS poll, see notes). . .

Several congressional Democrats told The Washington Times in an informal survey last week that they think impeachment is the wrong strategy.

"The Republicans showed their true colors when they impeached President Clinton," said Sen. Tom Harkin, Iowa Democrat.

He called the Whitewater investigation of the Clintons' Arkansas real estate dealings a "witch hunt" that wasted thousands of hours and "so much of the public's money."

"We Democrats have to show the people of this country that we're better than that," he said.

Sen. Russ Feingold, Wisconsin Democrat, last year authored a resolution calling on Congress to censure Mr. Bush for his warrantless wiretapping program. He told The Times that he is unlikely to reintroduce the bill or push for impeachment hearings.

"The election in many ways was a censure of the president and his performance in a number of these areas," Mr. Feingold said, noting that voters want Congress to tackle Iraq policy, health care and government accountability.

"Impeachment might make it look like we don't care about the other stuff," he said. "I don't think it serves the American people well, even though if there ever was a president that deserved to be removed, this is probably the guy."

Sen. John Kerry, Massachusetts Democrat, backed censure last year but said the focus now should be on oversight. "It's a chance to change the administration's behavior, not just to express disappointment," said Kerry spokeswoman Amy Brundage.

Rep. John Conyers Jr., Michigan Democrat and Judiciary Committee chairman, has backed off his impeachment calls and has not reintroduced his bills to censure Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney.

A Conyers spokesman said the chairman has "no plans to resubmit" the bills, but declined further comment. Mr. Conyers' campaign Web site once implored visitors to "demand an investigation of administration abuses of power" and consider impeachment.

Mr. Conyers is still no fan of the Bush administration, as is evident on the site now, but his calls for impeachment have been removed.


Harkin's took my breath away. Called his office and asked "What 'true colors' are the Dems showing by REFUSING to impeach mem who turned the USA into a War Criminal nation that illegally spies on it's citizens?!?"

Didn't get through to Kerry's office then, but if he believes we gave Congress the awesome power to imepeach to "express disappointment" he needs a serious knock in the head with a big clue-by-four. And gee Senator, aren't those efforts to "change the administration's behavior" working out well?

And Conyers. Don't even get me started. When your champions start http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2863118&mesg_id=2863211">babbling like idiots, it is just too heartbreaking.


================== Notes ==================

The Times/Bloomberg Poll asked an open-ended question ("What issue do you think should be the first priority for the newly elected Congress to address?") and limited respondents to two answers. Responses to open-ended questions are dictated by accessibly. The more frequently or recently one has been exposed to a topic the more accessible it is. (THE ACCESSIBILITY BIAS IN POLITICS: TELEVISION NEWS AND PUBLIC OPINION, Iyengar Int J Public Opin Res.1990; 2: 1-15 )

Given the media silence on impeachment, it is not surprising that so few would cite it On the rare occasions that impeachment does get mentioned in the media, it is rejected as something that can't, won't, or shouldn't happen. As a consequence, even of impeachment occurs to a respondent, they would tend to dismiss it as outside the realm of possibility.

In the poll Newsweek conducted shortly before the election (21-Oct-2007) respondents were prompted to assign a priority to specific items. In that poll, 51% rated impeachment a priorityhttp://january6th.org/oct2006-newsweek-poll-impeach.html)
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Phredicles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. "Impeachment might make it look like we don't care about the other stuff,"???
As much as I admire Sen. Feingold, I think this demonstrates the depth of Democratic cluelessness: What "other stuff" is getting done? What other stuff can get done with these intransigent unreconstructed nazis in the executive branch? It's disheartening to see our elected representatives carrying on like this is just another lousy presidential administration.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Mystifying. My only hope. . .
Edited on Wed May-30-07 09:31 AM by pat_k
. . . is that when we call and ask staffers those WTF!?! questions we force them to THINK about what they are saying. There IS NO rational explanation, but I don't think they will see that until they scramble for one. When they try to worm out by jumping to some other idiocy, we just need to pull them back (deal with one idiocy at a time).

Inside the beltway this lunacy is never challenged. They spout it without thought. I think the key to knocking some cracks in the wall of groupthink will be asking questions -- and laughing our heads off at their ridiculous answers. Petitions and calls demanding impeachment are great, but one-way communications have been sliding off their irrational notions. Echoing back their own words my be our best weapon.

And speaking of quotes. I find this one from Reid after the election to be among the most disturbing:
One of the things that we were able to cut off pretty quickly is the 'impeach Bush' program

-Sen. Harry Reid (http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1116/p11s01-usmb.htm">csmonitor 11/15/06)
So Senator, there was a viable "impeach Bush" program within the House/Senate? And the leadership proudly "cut it off"? The "impeach Bush program" was strong enough that you view "cutting it off" as an accomplishment of considerable note?


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Phredicles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Harry Reid sucks hairy ass. Just saying...
We definitely need a different leader in the senate.
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
5. I think the torture the President of vice advocated for
and crazy king george approved is almost an exact parallel to this:

"The phrase "Verschärfte Vernehmung" is German for "enhanced interrogation". Other translations include "intensified interrogation" or "sharpened interrogation". It's a phrase that appears to have been concocted in 1937, to describe a form of torture that would leave no marks, and hence save the embarrassment pre-war Nazi officials were experiencing as their wounded torture victims ended up in court."

"Also: the use of hypothermia, authorized by Bush and Rumsfeld, was initially forbidden. 'Waterboarding" was forbidden too, unlike that authorized by Bush. As time went on, historians have found that all the bureaucratic restrictions were eventually broken or abridged. Once you start torturing, it has a life of its own. The "cold bath" technique - the same as that used by Bush against al-Qahtani in Guantanamo - was ."

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/05/verschfte_verne.html

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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. bushitler: The torturer in chief.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. and Pariah in Chief -- even among Repubs.
The assurance with which so many declare "We Don't Have the Votes to Remove" never ceases to amaze me.

It is not only possible that impeachment would result in resignation or removal, it may be likely. (With resignation being more likely than removal -- more on that http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3288081&mesg_id=3288187">here)

Of course, win or lose, we must impeach for our own self-esteem. It is the only way we and the Democratic candidate who hope to get our votes can break the bonds of complicity.

And if they won't, I have no doubt that many will face serious primary challenges from people who know the meaning of an oath.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. Thanks! I missed Sullivan's piece. . .
Edited on Wed May-30-07 09:49 AM by pat_k
. . .It's a message to those who hide behind the notion that "it can't be that bad."

It is that bad.

Refusal to take immediate action is a denial of that reality.

When you have the means to rescue a torture victim you act. If you don't, you'll soon have no victim to rescue.

Our Constitution is being tortured. Impeachment is the only weapon capable of effecting rescue. It's now or never. There is no 'better time' ahead. There is no 'stronger case' than the case to impeach for turning Americans into torturers.

Bush's abuse of signing statements to nullify McCain's anti-torture amendment is enough to bring down Bush. Cheney's defense of "dunking" is enough to bring him down. Every time either of them (or their minions) publicly invoke the fascist fantasy of unitary authoritarian power they put the icing on the impeachment cake.

The case is so simple they could be out by Independence Day.

Then we'd REALLY have something to celebrate!

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tech3149 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
10. some don't see see the train that's about to turn them to bug squash
That doesn't mean they'll feel any better after it happens.
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. <delete>
Edited on Wed May-30-07 10:10 AM by Senator

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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
16. those who don't want impeachment will be eating those words
if * takes all power.
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