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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 07:49 PM
Original message
Closeup of Kennedy assassination
 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHTjaGV-wa8
 
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Posted on DU: November 22, 2006
By DU Member: proud2BlibKansan
Views on DU: 3488
 
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is the stabilized version of the Zapruder film...
...recommended.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. And how in the holy hell does our government expect us to
Edited on Wed Nov-22-06 07:58 PM by merh
believe that Oswald was the lone gunman, able to shot Kennedy in the front right side of his head, from behind - see the tape at 315/316 hit pause immediately - you'll see where the bullet came from and it wasn't from behind.

The first bullet hit him at frame 227 or there about, then as the film rolls on, to frame 315/316, the president is struck again in the right front of his head.

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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. and a relatively low angle, as well...
Edited on Wed Nov-22-06 08:08 PM by ixion
certainly doesn't appear to have been fired from six stories up.

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Counciltucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. It actually could have been fired from the rear.
An exit wound is typically larger and more explosive than an entrance wound, and if you watch the video slowly (frames 310-325) JFK very quickly thrusts forward with the motion of his head exploding and then quickly settles backward.

While I have no doubt that there's a conspiracy and that Oswald is either innocent or part of a bigger group (read: CIA), it's definitely possible that JFK's head wound was caused by a gunman shooting from behind him.
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Phrogman Donating Member (940 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Don't you trust your own eyes?
The shot came from the right and front, low angle.
Period.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I do...
The bullet came from the rear, Kennedy jerked forward with the impact, the bullet exploded out the front which is typical with this type wound, and with the rush of brain matter and blood out the front forced him back into his seat...


That is what I see
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Aviation Pro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I can buy the plausibility of Newton's 3rd law.....
...regarding the "jet" of brain matter, tissue and blood (all of which were propelled by the high pressure of the impact of the projectile), however, the velocity of the round and the thrust produced just doesn't add up in the violent jerk reaction seen on the film.

What I really want to know is why George H. W. Bush was in Dallas on that day.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I have a good friend who is an emergency room physician...
The wounds on Kennedy's skull are entirely consistent with a shot fired from the rear of which he has ssen many. No bullet would cause that kind of damage in the front and then emerge from the rear through a small hole. He was also in a seated position leaning forward, when his abdominal muscles relaxed he would tend to move back to his original position. And if I am not mistaken, he was also wearing his back brace.

He was shot from behind...
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. and of course those of us with other theories
and that see the reaction differently have to be wrong because your friend is an ER doc.

You have your opinion and I have mine, let it just stand at that.

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liberalmike27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-23-06 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. You are misinformed
Do you see Jackie climbing onto the trunk of the car? The reason; she's going out there to retrieve her husbands brain, and the back of his head. The exit wound is bigger, didn't make a small hole in the back of his head, instead blowing it off. It is hard to tell which direction the first shot came from, but the kill shot clearly came from the front.

You should read the Johnson series by Caro. You'll see Johnson is a ruthless and manipulative man, who had the connections and resources to make this happen. There is quite the body of evidence that Johnson had another man called Estes killed too, as his corruption was beginning to surface just as Kennedy took office, and was going to impugn Johnson. There is some speculation that his long-time friend and lawyer Clarke may have had something to do with arranging it. This most interesting take is presented in Barr McClellan's book (Scott's dad, and ex-husband of the lady who recently ran for governor of Texas), who worked for a period in the law firm Johnson had used through his corrupt primary election against Coke Stevens(on? I forget). Anyway, this book, Blood, Power, and Money claims a sniper was in a culvert near the crossing interstate in front (or highway). Also it claims a second shooter on the same floor as Oswald who quickly left, but allowed access to the building since he worked there. It's worth a read.

Some people just can't seem to believe this is possible. But look around you and see the depths of ordinary crime we see each day. People can stoop awfully low, and Johnson had always thought he was going to die early, and with Kennedy's popularity being so high, and the risk of him being ejected from the ticket in 1964 and his life-long ambition of serving as president being checked, it is easy to imagine him choosing the heartbeat-away option. The only difference between horrible ordinary crime and the crimes of the powerful is that they are much, much worse, and easier to cover up. If you've never researched Johnson, and the Kennedy assassination, you should. It makes for interesting reading if nothing else. About 70% of us who lived through it have always thought there was more to it than Oswald, and that he was killed to shut him up. By the way, quite a few others connected to the case mysteriously died in the next decade or so.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-23-06 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. The car was moving forward when he was shot...
The film clearly shows the spray moving forward, the car was moving and caught up with much of it as it was in the air.

Kennedy was also still bleeding and wounded as he fell back into his seat.

Look at the autopsy photos if you can. the large wound is in the front, the back wound is very small..

Lyndon Johnson did not have JFK killed...and is a ridiculous assertion.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-24-06 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jmondine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-24-06 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. Moving Forward
I'm looking at frames 313 to 317, and the visible cloud of spray that comes from Kennedy's temple actually seems to follow the grain of the grass to the left of the limousine rather than the car itself, which would suggest a backward motion.

As far as the car "catching up" with the spray, the only problem I have with that is that the origin of the spray, Kennedy's head, was also traveling forward at the same speed, therefore wouldn't the car be stationary relative to the wound?
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-23-06 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #9
24. You should watch this
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-24-06 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
32. pretty long delay between inpact and exit...
he was shot at least twice, the first one from the back, made him slump forward, and the 2nd which seemed to come from the right, is the one that blew his head apart. It is a miracle Jackie wasnt hit too..
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-23-06 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
26. how could he "settle backward"
after being "thrusted forward"?

What force do you think caused him to move back?
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Counciltucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. If the government says it, it must be true.
Unless it was the government which killed Kennedy.

Oh wait. It WAS the government which killed Kennedy.

That said, I'm still unsure of the final wound there -- one thing to remember is that an exit wound is always bigger than an entrance wound.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Very Simple...
Exit wounds are larger than entry wounds...The bullet clearly entered from the back and exploded out the front of his head...where largest wound was located.

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Phrogman Donating Member (940 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
7. Poor Jackie, what a tragic thing to happen to that woman.
She knew where that shot came from. It almost hit her.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
10. Why the renewed interest in this?
DU has been getting multiple new threads per day on the assassination. If that day had been just like any other, it's likely that JFK would have died by now from old age. Any conspirators are likely gone as well.
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Aviation Pro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. The Bush Crime Family is still here....
eom.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-23-06 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
25. Bobby's birthday was 3 days ago
Robert Francis "Bobby" Kennedy (November 20, 1925 June 6, 1968)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_F._Kennedy

To many Kennedys died a violent death under suspicious circumstances for people to forget.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
14. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
15. Ya know, for the magic bullet to have hit both JFK and Connelly....
Connelly doesn't react very quickly...

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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
16. Either the Zapruder film is wrong or the autopsy photos are wrong
Edited on Wed Nov-22-06 10:10 PM by EVDebs
Assassinationscience's weblink on the Zapruder film hoax

http://www.assassinationscience.com/johncostella/jfk/in...

BTW, didn't Mrs. Zapruder work with de Mohrenshildt at a store, Nardis, in Dallas ?

http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/index.php/Ge...

Also, Dr McClelland's drawing vs photo at

HOW FIVE INVESTIGATIONS INTO JFKS MEDICAL/AUTOPSY EVIDENCE GOT IT WRONG
http://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/How5Invest...
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SlavesandBulldozers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
17. there's an interesting new book out that points out the flaws in the zapruder film
Edited on Wed Nov-22-06 10:30 PM by SlavesandBulldozers
that film itself has been doctored.

"The Great Zapruder Film Hoax: Deceit and Deception in the Death of JFK" by James H. Fetzer

it has a number of experts examine the film. there's freaky stuff in it. i read it for about an hour in Borders. using methods of determining perspective for example, there are people who are 14 feet tall, people who are clipped out, pasted in. . . you name it.

that whole film is fucked.
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-23-06 02:36 AM
Response to Original message
19. Oh my fucking God.
I've seen the Zapruder film many many times, but never have I seen such a closeup.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-23-06 05:22 AM
Response to Original message
20. Looks like he was shot from behind to me.
:shrug:

Other times I've watched videos of the assassination I came away with the impression that he MAY have been shot from the front, but this is very clear and if, undoctored, is strong evidence that Kennedy was shot from behind. What the others said about exit wounds: yeah, that.
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the other one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-23-06 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
22. Two simultaneous shots (at least)
312 is a shot from behind that strikes the rear of the skull

313 is a shot from the front that that strikes just of the temple

the first shot begins to push the head forward, the second shot knocks the whole body backwards violently (this is not a conscious reaction - the man is already dead)

this is consistent with the theory of an organized synchronized mission with multiple shooting teams, spotters and a radio man to sychronize the shooters. the evidence also shows bullets and fragments struck other objects in the plaza, including signs, concrete curbs, manhole covers, the limo, other passengers in the limo, and a bystander.

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JeremyWestenn Donating Member (372 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-24-06 02:35 AM
Response to Original message
27. Gods have mercy.

That poor woman. Did she ever say what it was she was trying to do? I believe she was trying to grab a piece of his skull, that the shock of it all caused her to just do that on auto.
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jmondine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-24-06 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Jackie's Reaction
She never actually recalled crawling onto the back of the limo, even though she clearly did. Considering the extreme trauma she was suffering, this is not surprising.

She did, however, testify that shortly after the shots, she was trying to hold the back of JFK's head together. This is consistent with the action being to retrieve a piece of the occipital bone that had been blasted off.
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JeremyWestenn Donating Member (372 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #30
35. I see...
Thanks for clearing that up.

That poor woman...
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Downtown Hound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-24-06 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
29. Too low to be a shot from behind
Edited on Fri Nov-24-06 02:29 PM by Downtown Hound
Although his head very well might have gone back like that from a rear shot, that shot was too low and at the wrong angle to have come from behind.

Just my two cents. And then of course you have the fact that he was riding around in a convertible at all, that the parade route had been changed, that countless people involved in one way or another in the Kennedy assassination ended up dead within a year or two afterwords, the fact that a man opened an umbrella on a bright sunny day, the fact that Oswald was let back into the country without any questions despite the fact that he had supposedly defected to Russia and given them top-secret information...

Oh well, the list goes on. Straight up execution in my book. The last coup we had in this country prior to the Bush one, and an illegal and disastrous war that followed. History does repeat itself, does it not?
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jmondine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
33. Head Shot Forward Motion
The theory that JFK moves forward at the very moment of the headshot has always puzzled me. When you move frame by frame from 312 to 313 (just before to just after the fatal shot), there does seem to be a forward jerk of JFK's head. Yet when I view the film at regular speed, this impression goes away.

Upon closer examination, I've noticed a couple of things. First, Kennedy's right arm and shoulder appear not to move from 312 to 313. Then at 314 they begin moving backward. Second, when comparing 312 to 314, the angle of the top of Kennedy's head are almost identical. As well, the position of JFK's face in relation to Jackie's also stays almost stationary, though in 314 it has been partially obscured by the flap of skin and bone which has become loose and has folded out and forward.

The one feature that most gives the impression of forward motion is the top rear of JFKs head, which does seem to move forward and down. However, if one looks at frames 335 and 337, it is clear that the shape of his head has changed drastically. I believe that this shape change is what causes the top rear of the head to appear to move forward. It has been blasted out by a bullet from the front. Check out the bottom of the back of JFKs head, which shows the same position and angle until the rear motion.

To further my case, I point to the relative position of the top of JFKs head to the grassline behind him, which appears as a dark band between the sidewalk and the lawn. Before frame 313, the top back of Kennedys head protrudes well above this line, by at least one inch. After this frame, and particularly visible at 314, the line is almost completely visible, all the way down to the curb.The back rear of JFKs head is no longer blocking it, because it is no longer there. This is not due to any dramatic forward movement, as the relative position of his ear will attest.

Of course, dont believe me, or anyone else. Just check it out for yourself.
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Dukkha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
34. look at the autopsy photos
http://www.jfklancer.com/aphotos.html?NF=1

to me the exit wound appears to be the rear right side
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Here's a film of Kennedy's bodyguards being ordered away
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