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szatmar666 Donating Member (532 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 10:39 PM
Original message
Plugin electric pilot program in the Bay Area
 
Run time: 02:51
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tvSJdj5Yok
 
Posted on YouTube: April 10, 2010
By YouTube Member: AlJazeeraEnglish
Views on YouTube: 1862
 
Posted on DU: April 10, 2010
By DU Member: szatmar666
Views on DU: 740
 
http://www.pluginbayarea.org /
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BWGLAthgOg
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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. Electric vehicles are not practical yet
Too costly and the batteries are a disposal problem. Also, there isn't sufficient lithium in the world to make all those batteries.
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szatmar666 Donating Member (532 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. thanks for the tip: I am calling those shmucks in Israel ;)
I am sure they will scrap the plan as soon as they learn all about your concerns
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dencol Donating Member (297 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Maybe not practical for you...
But they're pretty practical for the people who drive under 40 or 100 miles per day. Research for better batteries will continue, as current technology will fill in the gap until some of the larger problems are addressed. But the move away from petrol really needs to start now, and I am excited for it!
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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Sigh.... Let's take these one at a time
Edited on Sun Apr-11-10 12:09 AM by tinrobot
Too costly

Nissan's Leaf will cost about same as a Prius after incentives - about $25K, or $350/month for a lease.

and the batteries are a disposal problem.

You don't dispose of lithium batteries -- they're fully recyclable.

Also, there isn't sufficient lithium in the world to make all those batteries.

Lithium is the Earths 25th most common element, roughly akin to lead or nickel. There's plenty.
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Iwasthere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. But but but...... THE GRID !!
So tired of all the lame arguments. I have been waiting for a plug in for so many years. I just want to drive my first 50 miles for free every day, I can also charge via solar mosty, and the rest at night. Polution free too. Baby steps, we have to start somewhere
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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Not in useable form
There's a lot of gold in the ocean, go extract it and make a profit. The extractable lithium reserves are limited -and are located in countries with politics which may limit extraction rates.

The batteries aren't really fully recycable at a reasonable cost - the full cycle cost is a problem.

The price you mention is "with incentives" meaning there's a subsidy involved. Also, what is the Leaf's payload/size/capability versus a hybrid? it can't compete.

Finally the electricity used to charge the batteries comes from somewhere. And that somewhere is a lot of times a coal fired power plant - which has similar thermodynamic efficiency to a highly efficient diesel engine (a bit better, but nevertheless not that much better). And this is the deal breaker. Unless the electricity is generated using hydropower, wind, or a cleaner fuel such as natural gas, then the CO2 load is about the same.

The electric car is a feel good vehicle for people who don't understand the full cost, nor do they understand there are better more practical alternatives, such as a hybrid with a larger battery set. Another alternative is a modern diesel with a 5 manual transmission. It gets about 50 miles per gallon. The europeans use super clean diesel and this type of vehicle is increasingly popular. It's a lot better than the fully electric vechiles being touted in California.
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szatmar666 Donating Member (532 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. nonsense
there are 32 million tonnes of KNOWN reserves. but that's just scratching the surface since exploration just started in earnest. The 32 million tonnes are enough to build 12.6 billion Chevy Volts (16 kWh battery pack) or 8 billion Nissan Leaves (24 kWh). These batteries are 100% recyclable as far as the lithium is concerned.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE61A5AY20100211

As for payload/size electric motors give far better torque for the same amount of energy expended, besides: ever heard of electric buses or trains?! Ever heard of the meglev concept?! Battery is just 1 idea: there are so many other solutions for electric transporation. Not to mention the technology hasn't even taken off, so there hasn't been much time to innovate. Internal combustion engines had 100 years.

finally: no one says we'll have 100% electric cars tomorrow. You are absolutely right: we can also operate internal combustion (diesel) engines on algae:
http://algaefuel.org
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_fuel

As for coal vs solar and wind. I think Dr Smalley, Dr Steven Chu and other noble prize winning scientists went through the numbers a long time ago ;)

http://www.agci.org/library/presentations/about/present...
http://www.agci.org/library/presentations/about/present...

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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. More corrections...
The price you mention is "with incentives" meaning there's a subsidy involved. Also, what is the Leaf's payload/size/capability versus a hybrid? it can't compete.

The Nissan Leaf electric car will cost $32,780, add in the federal EV tax credit, and the bottom line is $25,280, add in various state tax credits, and in states like California, it could get as low as $20,280. The Leaf is about the size of a Prius, seats five, and has 100 mile range per charge. The cars also includes navigation, wireless bluetooth, and lots of other nice features. Even at $32,00, it's a pretty good deal, considering you'll never have to buy gasoline, oil changes, or tune-ups again.

Ford and several other manufacturers will be right on Nissan's heels next year with similar vehicles, and competition will only drive costs down.

Finally the electricity used to charge the batteries comes from somewhere.

This has been studied many times. Every study shows that, even with coal, the carbon load is significantly less than burning gasoline in even the most efficient car. Add in anything better than coal, and you further reduce the load.

If you hate coal, there's nothing to stop you from putting up some solar panels or a windmill to charge your car with renewables. You'll always be Exxon's bitch as long as you burn gasoline, even in a hybrid, and if you burn biodiesel or ethanol, you'll either have to become a farmer or be Monsanto's bitch.

The electric car is a feel good vehicle for people who don't understand the full cost

Obviously, you've never owned an electric car.

I already own one, so please don't lecture me on costs and practicality, I know them well. In my experience, electric cars are much cheaper and more practical for urban driving (which is what most people do.) There's less maintenance, fewer parts to break down and they drive great.

But you are right in that it is a feel good vehicle. I smile every time I drive mine.

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stlsaxman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. ... and what about my meds??? I NEED MY LITHIUM!!!11!!1!!!!11!!
:rofl:
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WileEcoyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. Where can I get funding from the global warming deniers?
Like you seem to get? I could use a good subsidy and won't copy/paste their lies as you do.

Will just take the money and run.
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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 02:16 AM
Response to Original message
6. Even powering them from the filthiest grid energy--coal and nuclear--uses less
Edited on Sun Apr-11-10 02:17 AM by diane in sf
energy and creates less CO2. If you can power them with wind and solar, well that's frosting on the cake.

I would dearly love to never spend another penny putting gasoline in my car.
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ejpoeta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 06:58 AM
Response to Original message
8. at least it's a start. imagine if we can get solar energy more affordable... and electric cars.
now that would be something.
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Towlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
12. Darn! From the title, I was expecting something like this:
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