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rollingrock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 03:35 PM
Original message
Canadian Healthcare horror stories??
 
Run time: 20:33
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw
 
Posted on YouTube: July 13, 2009
By YouTube Member:
Views on YouTube: 0
 
Posted on DU: July 15, 2009
By DU Member: rollingrock
Views on DU: 2559
 
Wow, this really seems to put the Canadian healthcare system in a bad light.

If these horror stories are true about he Canadian sytem, then I wonder why it's ranked so much higher then the US system (by the WHO)?
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meegbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. From his writeup ...
"Liberalism is a disease... Meet the cure."

Nuf sed.
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TommyPaine Donating Member (300 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
2. Every country has its share of healthcare horror stories.
Edited on Wed Jul-15-09 04:19 PM by TommyPaine
Keep in mind this is a small sample size. Doesn't mean the system is broken. Though I'm sure Canada could do a lot to improve its plan, just like every nation. All healthcare systems need to evolve, and all need constant oversight.

Edit: Now that I've watched most of the slow-loading vid, I'm not even sure how this could be called a "horror story". It's an immature, inexperienced TV journalist with an existing bias intent on highlighting one obvious issue with Canada's healthcare system. Young-dude-with-nice-hairs investigative report looks more like an undergraduate communication majors class project.

In the U.S. system I've had my share of long waitsfor instance, six weeks to see a physician about a nagging health issue. Once someone in the U.S. is stuck in an HMO plan its like having the worst of socialized medicine without its benefitslong waits, little choice, but loads of co-pays.

I understand wanting to discuss multiple sides to a debate, but this clip is a poor way to accomplish this.

BTW, Pajamas TV claims to be "center-right", yet whacko reactionary Michelle Malkin is a featured contributor. Kinda tips the scales wayyy to the right there.
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rollingrock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
21. Notice how he fails to mention what part of Canada takes place
the interviews take place. That should set off some red flags. I bet he specifically chose some rural area that has limited services so he could make them the whole country look as badly as possible. I don't think most areas of of the country are nearly as bad as they are made out to be. There are variations in the quality of service within any country you go. You could probably find some very poorly served areas in the US as well. It varies not only by area but also by each individual facility. He seems to have cherry-picked the worse ones he could find for the video. He obviously has an agenda.

He also wrongly describes the Canadian system as socialized medicine or socialized healthcare when it isn't. They have a single payer system the govt just pays for the treatment, but the care is mostly provided by the private sector. So he's criticizing the private system in the video whether he knows it or not.
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TommyPaine Donating Member (300 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. And here PJTV prides themselves on "refreshing thoughtfulness"
From PJTV's "About Us" page:

Pajamas Media (PJM) was established in 2004 and is a network of about 100 bloggers that covers news and issues of the day in a refreshingly thoughtful and civil way. Led by CEO Roger Simon, the network includes well known personalities such as the Instapundit, Glenn Reynolds (named one of the 10 most influential legal scholars in America by the Social Science Research Network), and well known TV commentator Michelle Malkin. About 1 million people visit the PJM network every week (about 3.5 million monthly), many of whom, are politically center-right, with maybe 40% declaring they are Democrats.

Although Pajamas Media recognizes that the blogosphere can be the wild, Wild West when it comes to both civility and honesty, we try to ensure that the members of our network are civil and thoughtful, and exhibit integrity in their reporting and commentary.

Pajamas Media often covers stories not covered by the Main Stream Media (MSM). Although the MSM often denigrates the blogospheres integrity (sometimes fairly!) the MSM also has issues with honesty and even deception. For example, PJM blogger (and co-founder) Charles Johnson of Little Green Footballs has been instrumental in breaking many stories of MSM deception, such as Rathergate (see full index here), the use of deceptive photos by the Reuters News Service in covering the Lebanese War, and the recently falsified photos of Iran test rockets , run by the AP and many MSM organizations. PJM has also covered the recent expose of the Al Dura hoax produced by the France 2 TV station.

Pajamas Media also covers human interest stories. For example, the Kalmarfar story , in which an Iranian mother and her two young children resisting deportation back to Iran - were finally rescued after 73 days of jurisdictional limbo at the Moscow airport, when US Attorneys convinced the European Court of Justice to intervene, and permit the family to emigrate to Vancouver, Canada.

Pajamas Medias coverage of the 2008 US presidential election has included interviews of various key figures, including Rudy Giuliani, John McCain, and Fred Thompson.


Again I point out Michelle Malkin, hardly an example of this civility, center-right lean (40% visitors saying they're Democrat? really?), and refreshing thoughtfulness they tout. Also note their interviews of "key figures" from the 2008 prez campaign appear limited to three Republicans.
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
3. And your posting a link to a Republican TV "Personality" because why?
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rollingrock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. I think people should be exposed to the debate from all sides
and decide for themselves how valid these perspectives may or may not be.

he did go to Canada and interview people there about their experiences,
so it probably isn't all BS.
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unapatriciated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
25. It's bullshit..
Edited on Wed Jul-15-09 06:29 PM by unapatriciated
If you got the time I can make a case for each story where it was bullshit.
I spent 15 years fighting first blue cross than cigna to give my son proper care for his illness. It took eight months to do a simple blood test that I requested.
My son is now on medical and he gets his care but thanks to the repugs funding is being cut for the least among us.
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rurallib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
4. thanks for wasting my time.
and where is the video that shows him going into a US hospital as an uninsured patient and the bill afterward, to balance?
My guess is that Canada is ranked higher because anyone can get healthcare without having to make a choice between living and going bankrupt.
Please post this on freerepublic where they will ooh and aaah over the insight.
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NorCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Exactly this!
"and where is the video that shows him going into a US hospital as an uninsured patient and the bill afterward, to balance?"

It shouldn't be hard, there are 50 million (and growing) of them...
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Puzzler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
5. Most of these arguments, even if true...
... are not necessarily an argument against the single-payer system. You can still have poorly run hospitals, depending on the city and the provincial funding. But this is another issue entirely.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
6. I've talked to both Canadians and Brits...
and they tell me that while their systems have some problems, there is no way they would trade it for ours.

We are going to be flooded with torrents of shear bullshit attempting to convince us that insurance and pharmaceutical companies and their profits are absolutely essential for quality heath care.

Television commercials will warn us about government bureaucrats interfering with our health care. Let me ask you, how could they be any worse than the bureaucrats our medical insurance companies hire to deny coverage to our citizens.

But our politicians are bought and paid for. They don't represent us. So don't get your hopes up for a topnotch medical healthcare system. We'll get screwed once again and end up paying more for less.

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Hieronymus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
8. Imagine, kids like that voting republican ... oh well.
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Hieronymus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. The prices quoted for hamburgers, gas, etc were in Canadian dollars. $10.
Canadian is worth $8.85.
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
11. I could only stand this video up to 1:45 mins.
This is just done by some youtube yahoo as a joke, I presume. If the Republicans want to convince us of something about Canadian healthcare, they could stop getting obnoxious kids representing their viewpoint.
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greiner3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
12. My parents used to take their children to Canada;
So there!
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Segami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
13. If anyone wants to know about the REAL facts about the Canadian health care system, a good start
would be to just talk to everyday Canadians, young, old, sick & healthy who have used their health care system at one time or another. I came across this eye-opening article in the Denverpost:


Debunking Canadian health care myths


<http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_12523427 >


As a Canadian living in the United States for the past 17 years, I am frequently asked by Americans and Canadians alike to declare one health care system as the better one.

Often I'll avoid answering, regardless of the questioner's nationality. To choose one or the other system usually translates into a heated discussion of each one's merits, pitfalls, and an intense recitation of commonly cited statistical comparisons of the two systems.

Because if the only way we compared the two systems was with statistics, there is a clear victor. It is becoming increasingly more difficult to dispute the fact that Canada spends less money on health care to get better outcomes.

Yet, the debate rages on. Indeed, it has reached a fever pitch since President Barack Obama took office, with Americans either dreading or hoping for the dawn of a single-payer health care system. Opponents of such a system cite Canada as the best example of what not to do, while proponents laud that very same Canadian system as the answer to all of America's health care problems. Frankly, both sides often get things wrong when trotting out Canada to further their respective arguments.

As America comes to grips with the reality that changes are desperately needed within its health care infrastructure, it might prove useful to first debunk some myths about the Canadian system.


Myth: Taxes in Canada are extremely high, mostly because of national health care.

In actuality, taxes are nearly equal on both sides of the border. Overall, Canada's taxes are slightly higher than those in the U.S. However, Canadians are afforded many benefits for their tax dollars, even beyond health care (e.g., tax credits, family allowance, cheaper higher education), so the end result is a wash. At the end of the day, the average after-tax income of Canadian workers is equal to about 82 percent of their gross pay. In the U.S., that average is 81.9 percent.



Myth: Canada's health care system is a cumbersome bureaucracy.

The U.S. has the most bureaucratic health care system in the world. More than 31 percent of every dollar spent on health care in the U.S. goes to paperwork, overhead, CEO salaries, profits, etc. The provincial single-payer system in Canada operates with just a 1 percent overhead. Think about it. It is not necessary to spend a huge amount of money to decide who gets care and who doesn't when everybody is covered.



Myth: The Canadian system is significantly more expensive than that of the U.S.

Ten percent of Canada's GDP is spent on health care for 100 percent of the population. The U.S. spends 17 percent of its GDP but 15 percent of its population has no coverage whatsoever and millions of others have inadequate coverage. In essence, the U.S. system is considerably more expensive than Canada's. Part of the reason for this is uninsured and underinsured people in the U.S. still get sick and eventually seek care. People who cannot afford care wait until advanced stages of an illness to see a doctor and then do so through emergency rooms, which cost considerably more than primary care services.

What the American taxpayer may not realize is that such care costs about $45 billion per year, and someone has to pay it. This is why insurance premiums increase every year for insured patients while co-pays and deductibles also rise rapidly.



Myth: Canada's government decides who gets health care and when they get it.

While HMOs and other private medical insurers in the U.S. do indeed make such decisions, the only people in Canada to do so are physicians. In Canada, the government has absolutely no say in who gets care or how they get it. Medical decisions are left entirely up to doctors, as they should be.

There are no requirements for pre-authorization whatsoever. If your family doctor says you need an MRI, you get one. In the U.S., if an insurance administrator says you are not getting an MRI, you don't get one no matter what your doctor thinks unless, of course, you have the money to cover the cost.



Myth: There are long waits for care, which compromise access to care.

There are no waits for urgent or primary care in Canada. There are reasonable waits for most specialists' care, and much longer waits for elective surgery. Yes, there are those instances where a patient can wait up to a month for radiation therapy for breast cancer or prostate cancer, for example. However, the wait has nothing to do with money per se, but everything to do with the lack of radiation therapists. Despite such waits, however, it is noteworthy that Canada boasts lower incident and mortality rates than the U.S. for all cancers combined, according to the U.S. Cancer Statistics Working Group and the Canadian Cancer Society. Moreover, fewer Canadians (11.3 percent) than Americans (14.4 percent) admit unmet health care needs.



Myth: Canadians are paying out of pocket to come to the U.S. for medical care.

Most patients who come from Canada to the U.S. for health care are those whose costs are covered by the Canadian governments. If a Canadian goes outside of the country to get services that are deemed medically necessary, not experimental, and are not available at home for whatever reason (e.g., shortage or absence of high tech medical equipment; a longer wait for service than is medically prudent; or lack of physician expertise), the provincial government where you live fully funds your care. Those patients who do come to the U.S. for care and pay out of pocket are those who perceive their care to be more urgent than it likely is.



Myth: Canada is a socialized health care system in which the government runs hospitals and where doctors work for the government.

Princeton University health economist Uwe Reinhardt says single-payer systems are not "socialized medicine" but "social insurance" systems because doctors work in the private sector while their pay comes from a public source. Most physicians in Canada are self-employed. They are not employees of the government nor are they accountable to the government. Doctors are accountable to their patients only. More than 90 percent of physicians in Canada are paid on a fee-for-service basis. Claims are submitted to a single provincial health care plan for reimbursement, whereas in the U.S., claims are submitted to a multitude of insurance providers. Moreover, Canadian hospitals are controlled by private boards and/or regional health authorities rather than being part of or run by the government.



Myth: There aren't enough doctors in Canada.

From a purely statistical standpoint, there are enough physicians in Canada to meet the health care needs of its people. But most doctors practice in large urban areas, leaving rural areas with bona fide shortages. This situation is no different than that being experienced in the U.S. Simply training and employing more doctors is not likely to have any significant impact on this specific problem. Whatever issues there are with having an adequate number of doctors in any one geographical area, they have nothing to do with the single-payer system.

And these are just some of the myths about the Canadian health care system. While emulating the Canadian system will likely not fix U.S. health care, it probably isn't the big bad "socialist" bogeyman it has been made out to be.

It is not a perfect system, but it has its merits. For people like my 55-year-old Aunt Betty, who has been waiting for 14 months for knee-replacement surgery due to a long history of arthritis, it is the superior system. Her $35,000-plus surgery is finally scheduled for next month. She has been in pain, and her quality of life has been compromised. However, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Aunt Betty who lives on a fixed income and could never afford private health insurance, much less the cost of the surgery and requisite follow-up care will soon sport a new, high-tech knee. Waiting 14 months for the procedure is easy when the alternative is living in pain for the rest of your life.

Rhonda Hackett of Castle Rock is a clinical psychologist.







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TimesSquareCowboy Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. You might look at this post by a DUer recounting his very positive experience in Canada.
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Segami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Thats been my experience also when a friend took ill while visiting Ontario Canada. These Canadian
health system horror stories are exactly that, stories invented by industry shills in order to scare us into believing otherwise.
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TimesSquareCowboy Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
14. What the hell does he think would happen in the US on a Sunday?
My doctor's office isn't open, either. I would have to go to the Emergency Room and wait, and if it were something like a possible sprain, then I'd be pretty low on the priority list for the doctors.

In fact, I've been to my local ER twice - once for chest pains (false alarm) and once for a jammed finger. The first was on a Sunday and I was seen almost right away, because, of course, it was chest pains. The other was on a weekday (I can't remember why I went there on a weekday, honestly; it may have been late in the day...) and I don't remember the wait as very long - had X-rays taken, waited a while, a doctor and an intern came and treated me. I doubt the whole thing took more than 2 or 3 hours, which, given that it was just a jammed finger, seems reasonable.

So, it seems to me as though our current system is much like Canada's in terms of treatment at ERs. Now let's talk about paying for it....

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quidam56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
17. In East Tennesee horrifying care is within the parameters of acceptable health care
As a former health care giver, I am shocked and saddened to see what has become of health care in America. $ 1. 4 million is being spent per day in DC by the health care lobbyists so your elected representative is getting taken care of and has quality health care we pay for and can't afford ourselves for our families, I know what is deemed, defended and supported in Tennessee and Virginia as quality health care and clearly profit care comes ahead of patient care. http://www.wisecountyissues.com/?p=62 MRSA ( methicillin resistant staphylococcus aureas ) is infesting our communities because filthy, uncaring hospitals and emergency rooms are breeding them and spreading them into our schools, homes, restaurants. How many more Americans' will be diseased or die while 74 % of Americans' are begging for health care reform ? More people died in America last year from MRSA complications than AIDS. When MRSA and a flu bug start mixing, it won't be pretty and we are being infected by the very health care system we depend on and trust to keep us safe and healthy.
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JBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
18. Wasn't the narrator of this propaganda piece on "Saved by the Bell"?
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Crowman1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
19. He didn't ask them if they would prefer the US healthcare system!
I wonder who was fitting the bill for this so-called news report?
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jacksmind Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
20. What about....
Edited on Wed Jul-15-09 05:17 PM by jacksmind
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angstlessk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
22. a fyuckin sore wrist..see how long it takes him to be seen in the US of A
emergency room!
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
23. There are 100Xs more American HC stories. They never get mentioned but "Sicko" tried.
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booley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
26. I had a similar experience in the US
Had to take a friend to the emergency room and at that time we thought it was life and death serious.

We still spent as much time as this guy did with his nebulous complaint.

And it occurs to me that if it had been me, I would have been financially ruined because I can't get insurance.

So al this guy did was show that the Canadian system isn't perfect. Not that it's better then our for profit system.
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ConcernedCanuk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
27. Some of my medical history/experience.
.
.
.

I have had two abdominal hernias repaired in the 70's - no complications, minimal scars(below the belt-line), NO COST

Deviated septum repaired - no problems - NO COST

Ulnar nerve transposition - immobility and strength of arm recovered - NO COST

21 teeth removed, dentures supplied - NO COST

Vision tests, and glasses supplied (every 2 years) - NO COST

Many other services for cuts, bruises, infections ailments, and necessary medication - NO COST . . . . .

My father that died 2 summers ago at the age of 95 had 100's of thousands of $$ of treatments and medications during his last 2 decades, all at NO COST.

As mentioned above, and I agree, our system is not perfect, none will ever be - -

But our financial lives cannot, CANNOT be ruined by medical bills.

Canadians are not flocking to the USA for medical treatment.

I do not think there is a better health-care system in North America than in Canada

but then again,

I'm a Canuk

:dunce:

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Hulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
28. I wasted 5 minutes of my life watching this stupid video...
I guess the point is, if you are a smart ass American who is just jerking off the medical staff in some far off corner of Canada, you can expect to wait. Nice.

Are we adopting the Canadian Health Care System? I haven't heard that yet. I guess that means we can all go north and they can come south, and we can all share the same services? Oh wait...I guess that's bull shit.

I found Senator Sanders explanation of "socialized medicine" in our Veterans Administration and our Medicare system to be a bit more responsible and relevant to the debate.

This idiot, I'm sure, convinced a lot of his red neck friends that they are more right than ever. That will make them all happy, I'm sure.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
29. Wow, a YouTube version of the Rush Limbaugh shit show...
who'd have guessed!

"Wow, this really seems to put the Canadian healthcare system in bad light". Hmmmmm, and put together by none other than slimeballs from Little Green Footballs, Michelle Malkin and others of their disgusting right-wing ilk.

This video is absolute crap and that comes from someone who lives in Canada and is fortunate to have a universal healthcare system to access. I have no doubt this little 'goodie' was funded by the US Insurance Companies, HMOs, etc. and it is very sad to see anyone fall for it.
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Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
30. RW idiots
Red Cross blood-donor clinics can do blood tests very quickly in Canada.

but nooooo, don't ask these harper lovers to ever just walk in any of 'em and give blood...

as for the lady saying she should have bought private insurance, sorry but, she doesn't know anything about "pre-conditions?"

there are SOME problems, but one of the BIG problems is that MANY newly graduated Doctors move to the States for... MORE MONEY (what else?)


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quantass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-16-09 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
31. I'm Canadian and this Video is BS -- Healthcare here is AMAZING!
The problem is these guys specifically chose a location in Canada that is hard-pressed with doctors....

Notice they dont visit Ontario or BC or other provinces...these guys were deliberate in where they went. Don't be fooled.

I've lived in Canada all my life and i can tell you that Universal Health coverage is incredibly important to all Canadians and no one in their right mind will give that up! NO ONE!
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Hieronymus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-16-09 04:35 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. It's obviously from a right wing group.
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