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New Testament scholar Barbara Rossing debunks "the Rapture"

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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-09 11:37 PM
Original message
New Testament scholar Barbara Rossing debunks "the Rapture"
 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frqIH5eATWg
 
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Posted on DU: February 28, 2009
By DU Member: Turborama
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New Testament scholar Barbara Rossing describes the background and fallacy of the so-called "rapture."
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ladym55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-09 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. Rossing is excellent
This is a piece from Living the Question, which is an entire curriculum of modern, progressive theologians, who speak out AGAINST the loony tunes of the Christian Right who have given all faith a REALLY bad name.
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Submariner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-01-09 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
2. The nuns brought us up on the same fear-based dogma
I wasted my childhood fearing this Jesus Christ character, only to find out later that if he ever existed at all, he was nothing more than just another ignorant flat-earther from 2000 years ago.

My take on a religious upbringing is that it was child abuse wrapped in a ribbon of deception.

Ms. Rossing explained her position well.
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sammythecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-01-09 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
3. That was really interesting
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-01-09 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
4. Maybe next, scholar Barbara Rossing will debunk the New Testament. nt
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-01-09 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. I doubt it, she is an ordained Lutheran Minister
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DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-01-09 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
5. Her book as reviewed at Amazon, at the link below. . .
http://www.amazon.com/Rapture-Exposed-Message-Hope-Reve...

From Publishers Weekly
Ordained minister Rossing is ready to do battle with evangelicals both within and outside of her Lutheran Church camp. Rossing, who teaches New Testament at the Lutheran School of Theology in Chicago, begins her sparring by taking on the widely popular Left Behind series and all it presumes to communicate about the future of the world. Claiming that the Left Behind authors' interpretation of prophetic biblical verses is "fiction," Rossing firmly asserts that the Book of Revelation has a completely different purpose than to predict upcoming world uprisings and the eventual end of the earth. Instead, Rossing believes that this biblical vision is meant to inspire humanity to seek out "repentance and justice." Rossing also maintains, somewhat unfairly, that rapture enthusiasts extol a careless, abusive attitude toward God's created world, since rapture theology declares that the followers of Christ are soon to be removed from it. More significant is Rossing's belief that Revelation does not offer a prophetic look at Jerusalem as the inevitable battleground between good and evil, but rather extends the promise of a New Jerusalem that will open its arms to all nations in peace. While Rossing's scholarly work is well organized and obviously carefully thought out, evangelicals may take issue with the blanket statement that "most Christian churches and biblical scholars condemn Rapture theology as a distortion of Christian faith with little biblical basis." This book will likely upset Christian conservatives while appealing to many in mainline denominations.

:thumbsup:
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-01-09 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. I read a book where it explained the rapture idea came from a little girl who told
her vicar about her dream in 1834. He then came up with the rapture by adding dates over and over. Rapture doesn't appear in any text of the Bible. Its a buncha crap.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-01-09 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Is that the book being discussed in this article?
From: The Rapture Theory - Its Surprising Origin

=snip=

The Beginnings of the Doctrine

The result of a careful investigation into the origin of the Rapture was published in 1976. This was in an excellent research book that deserves to be read by all people interested in the subject. Its title: The Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin by Dave MacPherson. 3 He catalogs a great deal of historical material that answers the doctrines mysterious derivation. I wish to review the results of his research.

In the middle 1820s a religious environment began to be established among a few Christians in London, England which proved to be the catalyst from which the doctrine of the Rapture emerged. Expectations of the soon coming of our Lord were being voiced. This was no new thing, but what was unusual was the teaching by a Presbyterian minister named Edward Irving that there had to be a restoration of the spiritual gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians chapters 1214 just before Christs Second Advent. To Irving, the time had come for those spiritual manifestations to occur. Among the expected gifts was the renewal of speaking in tongues and of prophetic utterances motivated by the spirit.

Irving began to propagate his beliefs. His oratorical skills and enthusiasm caused his congregation in London to grow. Then a number of people began to experience the gifts. Once this happened, opposition from the organized churches set in. It resulted in Irvings dismissal from the Presbyterian Church in 1832. His group established themselves as the Catholic Apostolic Church and continued the teachings of Irving. These events were the beginnings of what some call present day Pentecostalism. Some church historians referred to Irving as the father of modern Pentecostalism.

What does this have to do with the origin of the Rapture doctrine? Look at what happened in the year 1830 two years before Irvings dismissal from the Presbyterian Church. In that year a revival of the gifts began to be manifested among some people living in the lowlands of Scotland. They experienced what they called the outpouring of the Spirit. It was accompanied with speak ing in tongues and other charismatic phenomena. Irving preached that these things must occur and now they were.

On one particular evening, the power of the Holy Spirit was said to have rested on a Miss Margaret Macdonald while she was ill at home. She was dangerously sick and thought she was dying. In spite of this (or perhaps because she is supposed to have come under the power of the spirit) for several successive hours she experienced manifestations of mingled prophecy and vision. She found her mind in an altered state and began to experience considerable visionary activity.

The message she received during this prophetic vision convinced her that Christ was going to appear in two stages at His Second Advent, and not a single occasion as most all people formerly believed. The spirit emanation revealed that Christ would first come in glory to those who look for Him and again later in a final stage when every eye would see Him. This visionary experience of Miss Macdonald represented the prime source of the modern Rapture doctrine as the historical evidence compiled by Mr. MacPherson reveals.

The Influence of John Darby

=snip=

While many Christians long thought the Rapture doctrine originated with John Darby, it is now known that this was not true. Darby did popularize it. Scofield and others took it over. But Darby provided the intellectual mantle that helped make it respectable. Many of those in the evangelical sphere of Christianity today are so certain of its veracity that it is accepted as the absolute truth of God. The fact is, however, John Darby received the knowledge of the doctrine from someone else. His source was Margaret Macdonald.

The studies of Mr. MacPherson show that her sickness during which she received her visions and revelations occurred sometime between February 1 and April 14, 1830. By late spring and early summer of 1830, her belief in the two phases of Christs coming was mentioned in praise and prayer meetings in several towns of western Scotland. In these meetings some people were speaking in tongues and other charismatic occurrences were in evidence. Modern Pentecostalism had its birth.

These extraordinary and strange events so attracted John Darby that he made a trip to the area to witness what was going on. Though he did not approve of the ecstatic episodes that he witnessed, it is nonetheless significant that Darby, after returning from Scotland, began to teach that Christs Advent would occur in two phases. MacPherson shows good evidence that Darby even visited Miss Macdonald in her home. There can hardly be any doubt that the visions and spiritual experiences of Miss Macdonald are the source of the modern doctrine. But belief in such paranormal experiences is dangerous, especially when they are contrary to scriptural teachings.

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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. yes it must be. I tore up my bookshelf looking for it but remembered I lent it to
someone. :)
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-01-09 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
7. Off to the Greatest Page
It's about time somebody came along and debunked that violent bloody horrid bunch of nuts and their plans to MAKE the rapture happen. It's about time.
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xfundy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-01-09 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
8. I had the same reaction as the kids she spoke about
So many times, when I got home from school or otherwise, if no one was there, my first thought was, "they went to heaven, and I was left behind, OMG, there's nothing I can do now, so i may as well eat cookies" because I KNEW I was an eeeeeevil sinner, and even wondered if I might be th' antichrist, because I'd heard so often that he "is alive now, and about your age." It would have surprised me if I had been the antichrist, but every time I heard the preacher, he kept piling on the "sins," some of which I hadn;t yet committed, but surely would have, given time.

And if it really is Obama, and not Mick Jagger or Elvis or the four Beatles of th' 'Pocalypse (or anyone with "long hair"), as I'd also been preached to about, well, isn;t that baby Jesus's WILL? So hey, fundies, celebrate that you got one right for a change, 'cuz your record's honestly not very good up to now. Th' book sez you win in the end, so why can't you shut the fuck up till then?
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Road Scholar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-01-09 05:53 AM
Response to Original message
10. Very interesting, ant true I'm sure. A form of terrorism no doubt. nt
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-01-09 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
11. There is more to it than what is discussed here and Rossing is damn near a voice of 1
Pre/mid/post tribulation are the main camps, with pre being the largest. Rossing is one of very few voices espousing her position. Have to wonder what her views on the second coming are.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-01-09 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. She is hardly a "voice of one". There is an entire Movement.
I didn't have any trouble deciphering this conclusion some 20 odd years ago by reading books promoting one scenario or the other. Of course, that requires an open mind, which is often not to be found among church members.
http://www.amazon.com/Paradise-Restored-Biblical-Theolo...
This author is deceased.

More books:
http://www.preterist.info/preterist-books.html

:google: "preterism" for lots of links. As usual, however, even the preterists are divided into different camps regarding what the true "end time" scenario might entail. David Chilton, as linked above, believes that humanity will rebuild and restore a new earth. There are other views. I haven't done enough personal study to have an opinion. However, I have just known since the mid-80s that "Rapture" was a piece of crap. I cringed as I watched friends and family read those awful Left Behind books.

My youth was wasted on this pack of lies. Being raised in the church, we were indoctrinated as young teens with "The Late Great Planet Earth", which predicted and End in "1988", based on the formation of Israel in 1948. WHAT A WASTE OF TIME and talent.

It's true that the Rapture-ists are opposed to environmental precautions. One old time evangelical was noted to say that environmentalism was akin to "polishing the brass of the Titanic". :grr:

I'm so glad this is gaining greater exposure. I have felt the lone voice for a very long time now.
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ljm2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-01-09 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
13. Appreciate the post!
It's nice to hear someone discuss this somewhat rationally. One thing that never struck me before, but that she makes clear -- people are brought up with the notion that "Jesus Christ is a-comin', and he's a-gonna git you!"

Talk about twisting his teachings! Jesus! If Jesus were alive today he'd be wringing his hands in despair. Maybe he is...
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-01-09 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. What do you think Jesus would make of this lot?
I don't know if you've seen this before but when you think that the potential president last year had this lot behind him, you realize quite how close that bullet we dodged was...

Rapture Ready: The Christians United for Israel Tour
Max Blumenthal's latest takes us on a shocking and at times bizarre tour of right-wing Pastor John Hagee's annual Washington-Israel Summit, blowing the cover off the Christian Zionist movement in the process. Starring Joe Lieberman, Tom DeLay, Pastor John Hagee, Ambassador Dore Gold and a host of rapture-ready evangelicals praying for Armaggedon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjMRgT5o-Ig

These articles about Palin kept me up at night too...

End-Times Prophecies and More: How Electing Sarah Palin Endangers Your Life UPDATED
http://tpzoo.wordpress.com/2008/09/22/end-times-prophec... /

Sarah Palin's Extremist Religous Beliefs: The Republic is At Risk
http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/interviews/126

Sarah Palins Churches and The Third Wave New Apostolic Reformation
(the video has been removed from youtube for some reason, but can be found on the Huffington Post link below...)
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/09/09/... /

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-wilson/sarah-palins...

Sarah Palin, the pastor and the prophecy: judgment day is not far away

Alexi Mostrous in Wasilla, Alaska

At the Wasilla Assembly of God Church, Sarah Palins former pastor sees powerful signs that the end of the world is nigh.

Pastor Ed Kalnins cites conflict in the Middle East, Americas dependence on foreign oil and the depletion of energy reserves as evidence that storm clouds are gathering. He told The Times: Scripture specifically mentions oil instability as a sign of the Rapture. Were seeing more and more oil wars. The contractions of the fulfilment of prophecies are getting tighter and tighter.

He declined to set an exact date for the Rapture, or the End of Days the belief in a time when Jesus will return, raising up believers to Heaven and leaving the wicked to be ruled by the Antichrist but hopes it will be in his lifetime. Im looking out the window and I can see its going to rain, he said. Im just looking at the turmoil of the world, Iraq, other places everywhere people are fighting against Christ.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_amer...


The Politics of Tribulation - Sarah Palin and the Rapture
By Raymond J. Lawrence
http://www.counterpunch.org/lawrence09202008.html


:scared:
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-01-09 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. They are scary.
Edited on Sun Mar-01-09 04:29 PM by Why Syzygy
But, you know, there are cataclysmic predictions coming from New Agers and the 2012 group as well.
They keep saying that many people will not be ready for the "ascension", and will leave the planet.
I find that angle to be just as questionable. It's the rapture redux.
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Shanti Mama Donating Member (625 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. Not all Christians are brought up this way.
I'm a believer in the teachings of the man, Jesus, but not a Christian.

I was raised a part-time Presbyterian by a Lutheran mom and an Episcopalian dad. In my 40s I attended a Lutheran church for a few years and then a Presbyterian "lite" church.

I came away with this key message: We are loved no matter what. I am loved no matter what. Blew my mind. Even though I don't believe in a god who can love, it still rocked me in a very positive way.

No rapture. No malarkey. None of the other stuff. Just GRACE. We could all use a little grace.

Just my own two cents.


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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-01-09 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
17. I'm glad to see some giving another perspective.
K and R
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stlsaxman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-01-09 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
18. GREAT POST!!!! only wish i could recommend it a thousand times.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
19. THE RAPTURE HAS BEEN RUPTURED. Get the word out.
Thanks for posting this, Turborama.

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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. LOL . Yes like an old rubber tire it should rupture sooner or later.
For much too long religion has been rolling along on those old rubber conundrums.
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Road Scholar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
22. K&R nt.
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Capt. America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
23. She didn't answer how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
24. "Spiritual abuse" is right
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
25. And many Christians scoff at and try to convert the tribal
superstitions of indigenous peoples (as well as other religions)to substitute one set of superstition for another. Superstitious beliefs have been a root cause of much world strife.
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