I'm a Smoker Who Drives An SUV, Occasionally Shops At Walmart & Eats Steak

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

I am every bit as liberal as anyone else. I am fighting the democratic fight every single bit as much. I resent this corrupt and criminal administration with every single bit of passion as the next guy. Funny that.

So to all the others here on DU that do one, more or all of those things I posted in the title, God bless ya and know that all of those things are ok, in spite of the daily guiltrips you are subjected to because of them. We are no less liberal for them, and I'm sorry you have to deal with the self-rigtheous judgments of so many. But I just wanted you to know you aren't alone. Those things are ok. We are no less liberal and are fighting with no less passion because of them.

That is all.

[cynatnite]

1. Smoker, and shops at Walmart 'cause I have to and...

had a juicy roast for dinner tonight.

No guilt trips here...unless you count the cake I threw at my sister 12 years ago. It was her birthday cake. :blush:

[bmbmd]

2. You are who you are.

My landcruiser gets thirteen mpg.

[benburch]

3. No, but you ARE killing yourself.

Stop the smoking, Man. I've seen what the terminal stage of that looks like.

Please?

[megatherium]

40. You're not the only one who has seen someone die of a smoking-related

illness. I was present last year for my father's death from lung cancer.

I don't mean to be an anti-smoking Nazi, so all I will say is this: smoking takes 14 years off of the life of the average smoker.
http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/research_data/economics/mm5425_highlights.htm

[Mythsaje]

265. Yeah, but they're the LAST 14 years

and they pretty much suck anyway.

;)

Don't worry...I plan on quitting again as soon as my wife does...again.

[RebelOne]

62. I am a smoker and I have also seen the terminal stage

of lung cancer. My mother died of lung cancer and she had stopped smoking for 5 years, and her lungs were clean, but all of a sudden they filled up with fluid and she died two months later. We smokers do not need to be lectured on the consequences of our bad habit. I had a cousin who died of lung cancer and he never smoked a cigarette in his life. Even if lung cancer kills me, I will leave this world enjoying a habit that made me happy. So stop lecturing us smokers.

[benburch]

73. Wasn't a lecture.

I just like having my friends on THIS side of the turf.

[VolcanoJen]

249. I'm 37 days smoke-free.

And yes, I'm still counting it in days.

It's like breaking up. It really is. It has its downsides and its upsides. Sure, you long for your ex, and from time to time you want him, but you feel free, somehow. No more midnight runs to the Gas-n-Sip, and $40 extra in my wallet every week.

I'm not into Quit Smoking lectures either, but I'm with ben... let's stay alive, strong, healthy, and with more expendable income. :-)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

254. I'm Proud Of You. Keep It Up!!!!

[leftyladyfrommo]

282. I stopped again about a month ago.

Got under a lot of stress and had 1 yesterday. Didn't taste good so I'm hoping I can just go on not smoking except for maybe 1 here and there just to make the craving go away. I'm funny that way. I can do that - most people can't.

[wtmusic]

318. Hypnosis -- from a skeptic to a believer

First off I have to mention I was very skeptical of hypnosis, as was the person in this story.

I hung out with an old friend the other night who I hadn't seen in a long time. He described how he met some "friend of a friend" who claimed for $400 and two sessions she could get him off cigarettes forever using hypnosis. Because he had already had cancer once and was desperate he went for it.

He met her at her house and she sat him down in a recliner, told him to close his eyes, and basically just said things like, "OK, I want you to relax. Are you feeling relaxed? Good. Take a deep breath and let it out very slowly..." etc. All the while he was thinking, "Lady, the first thing I do when I get out of this chair is go outside and light up."

This went on for about half an hour. He got up out of the chair and she asked him what he thought of the session. He told her not very much, he was going to go have a cigarette.

"That's OK...I'm going to see you next week?" she asked.
"Sure, I'll be here."
"By the way, how long do you think our session lasted today?"
"I don't know, half an hour, forty minutes?" my friend answered.
"You were here for two and a half hours. See you next week."

He looked at his watch and she was right. Then he went outside and had his cigarette but only smoked half of it. He had one more cigarette later that day, and none until their next meeting. No urge.

He met her the next week, had a similar experience, and hasn't had another cigarette for thirteen years. She explained after their second meeting there is nothing particularly mysterious about it--it's all suggestion.

FYI.

[BeTheChange]

461. For independence day last year, I had my first hypnotist meeting..

Then I went back 2 weeks later. After smoking for 12 years and never being able to quit for more then 24 hours I tried hypnosis. It was 215 for two sessions. I never smoked another cigarette after the first session. It was absolutely amazing. I would definately recommend private hypnosis anyday. It is all about finding the right hypnotist.

[gizmo1979]

306. I'm going on 30 days smoke free

and I never shop at Wal-mart.

[wtmusic]

315. "Like breaking up"

Couldn't have said it better (25 years cig-free for me). Best of luck. :thumbsup:

[Iowa]

360. I quit 23 years ago...

I had been a carton per week smoker for 15+ years. Quitting was one of the toughest things I ever did. Two things I discovered that helped me...

1) The intense urge to light up came in waves, and the spaces between these urges lasted about as long as the spaces between lighting up (when I was smoking). In other words, if I typically had a cigarette every 20 minutes or so, it helped to know that the urge would go away and not come back for roughly 20 minutes. I just had to tough it out for two or three minutes and then I'd be fine until the next one. Knowing that helped me gut it out (knowing the urge won't last long - and knowing I'll get long breaks between them). Gradually the time between those urges lengthened and weakened in intensity until they disappeared altogether. I quit cold turkey with no patches, gum, hypnosis, etc.

2) For me there was a psychological component tied to "looking cool". I had women tell me that they liked to watch me smoke - the way I did it - why I really don't know. They thought I looked classy, they said. Furthermore, I also grew up around macho men (John Wayne types) and developed an impression that it was very cool to smoke. I had to deal with that - convince myself that it was actually a disgusting habit. I don't think I could have done it without thinking that through and changing my mindset. This may not be as much of an issue today as smokers are relegated to a second-class status in so many places. It would be tough to be a smoker today - it was much easier when I was smoking and smokers have my sympathy.

Others may have different experiences, but those two things got me through it. Good luck!

[VolcanoJen]

435. Excellent post!!!

I agree with both your points. The social component of smoking was a biggie for me, too. It really wasn't until smoking became increasingly anti-social that I was able to embrace kicking the habit.

As far as the cravings go... they are wicked. At first I tried to escape the craving by exercising, brushing my teeth, playing my bass. It worked... sort-of. But the cravings kept coming, intense and just a little bit painful.

I went searching for some advice online and finally found a technique that worked for me... acknowledge the craving. Close your eyes and lean right into it. Ride it out. In a way I can't really describe, something about embracing the craving made it a little bit enjoyable. Leaning into the craving without satisfying it with a cigarette really, really worked for me. The cravings are few and far between now, but if I just fall into the craving, almost Zen-like, it crescendos and subsides.

I'm also a cold-turkey quitter. My two previous attempts failed, and both times I used a nicotine substitute. I highly recommend just quitting outright and dealing with three days of truly intense cravings as your body rids itself of nicotine.

After that, it's all psychosomatic.

Thanks for inspiring me, Iowa. :hug:

[Kukesa]

365. Congrats, Jen! Good for you! nt

[AngryOldDem]

432. Way to go, Jen!

Take it a day at a time...

:thumbsup: :hi:

[Swamp Rat]

262. LOL!

Even if we can come back, we'll never get anything done on THAT schedule! :D

[debbierlus]

170. This is not a lecture

However, it isn't just the smoker who suffers! My grandmother spent 10 years caring for my grandfather who slowly suffocated to death with emphysema. I understand your plight (I was a smoker), and I really am not trying to lecture you. But, it often profoundly affects other people, who end up suffering a great deal for your habi

[daveskilt]

63. hey I run a nursing home - smokers keep me in business

seriously without all the COPD patients half my beds would be empty

[progressivebydesign]

222. My poor Mom has COPD from living with my Dad who smoked..

many years ago. She never smoked a day in her life, but every doctor she has had said.. "so how long have you smoked??". COPD is nasty stuff!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

124. Unfortunately I Know. And I Pray Someday Soon I'll Have The Strength To

stop. And I mean that sincerely. Unfortunately, I know this next statement will get me a lot of flack, but to hell with anyone who does. The fact is, Ben, I'm so completely and utterly addicted to nicotine that I have nowhere nears the strength right now to quit on my own. I have tried every product out there, every method out there, every whacked out gimmick out there, and by the end of one day even took the patch off my arm, rolled it up and tried to smoke it. I am truly that addicted. The new medication Rimnobant sounds promising and I look forward to trying it when it's available. I do enjoy smoking, I'll admit. But not nearly as much as I hate it for all that it is and all that it has done to me. I know so many narrow-minded people will say "but if you truly wanted to quit you would. If you were REALLY ready to quit you would". But to them I say hell with ya. That's crap. I am as addicted as addicted can be, and the powerless to continue feeling I get after a half a day without cigs is like the feeling you get after holding your breath for two minutes, but no matter how strong your will power is you have to simply let the breath out and breath in and out deeply.

So anyway, sorry bout the long winded reply. I do hate cigarettes in so many ways, enjoy them in so many others, but truly do want to rid myself of them. I hope to hell someday soon I can before it's too late, and pray each day that the nicotine vaccine they are currently working on ends up actually working. Sighhhhhhhh.

[NorthernSpy]

130. this is why I never criticize smokers for smoking

They know what their habit costs them. They really don't need me to tell them about it. Why tell people things they already know?

If they say they can't function without nicotine, I take their word for it. Who am I to contradict them on the subject of their own brain?

[seabeyond]

197. you are kind. thank you n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

142. Make sure you don't wait as long as my dad did.

He smoked 2 packs a day of marlboro unfiltereds (because "real men" didn't smoke those queer-ass filter cigarettes) until he finally quit at about age 47. By age 53 he was dead.

Best of luck kicking that one, my friend. I really mean that.

[debbierlus]

167. It usually takes MANY tries to quit

Believe me, there is hope!

I know someone who was addicted to heroine, and he had JUST a hard a time quitting cigarettes as he did quiting the dope! (Happy to say, he succeeded with both & has been off long term + six years).

I was beginning to believe he would never, ever, ever, quit.

Took probably fifty tries or more.

Just keep trying and trying. And, remember, it is just as much psychological as physical, so you have to figure out your smoking pattern, your smoking triggers, and your best ways to fight cravings. I still crave a cigarette after a particularly good meal!

Best of luck, don't give up on quitting, it can be done!

[Thirtieschild]

184. Quit smoking 24 years ago & admit that I love second-hand smoke

Inhale it even. Still occasionally dream I'm smoking. I smoked a pack and a half a day for 28 years, most of those years unfiltered Pall Malls. Quitting was easier than I dreamed it could be - I continued to smoke for several months, just didn't light the cigarette. Got both the breath and hand pleasures, just not the nicotine. I know that wouldn't work for everyone, and perhaps I wasn't even addicted. But you might try it with whatever patch/pill you try next. Good luck.

[daveskilt]

209. visit a nursing home - see my 65 year old patients

now for kids who like meth - come see my 35 year old patients who will wear diapers for the next 40 years. seriously - smoking kills you slowly. the inbetween part sucks

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

215. Thank You So Much For That. Up Till THIS Moment I Had No Idea Smoking Was

bad for me.

You may have just saved my life.


P.S. Oh my god! You're right! I just looked on the side of my cigarette pack for the very first time ever and saw this warning on it that says they're bad for me!

[daveskilt]

303. oh come on .... not my point at all

not trying to preach mate. just saying since I started working in a nursing home it made me change all my bad habits (ok most of them) smoking kills is abstract. smoking/overeating/not excercising/drinking/too much cofee kills in horrible slow painful ways like this poor bastard here drives it home - or at least for me.

I knew my bad habits were killing me- didnt change a damn thing, seeing it was the only thing that worked after all the gimmicks just like you tried. actually seeing thousands of 60 year olds with no legs and an oxygen mask shitting themselves every day - see that got my attention.

just one more trick to try - im just taking you at your word that you wanted to quit and had tried everything - letting you know what worked for me when i was in the same boat. just taking you at your word when you said you sincerely were looking for the strength to stop. May not work for you but this is where I got enough of a kick to do it.

oh yeah and on your original post - those self righteous hippys piss me off too. So i dont hate bush enough because I drive an SUV and dont munch granola? screw them

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

316. I Got Ya Now. My Apologies To You.

I got too quickly defensive there and have no problem taking it back. I was kinda in a wiseass mood when I posted that, if ya couldn't tell. Problem is, I did think it was funny, but shouldn't have wasted it on someone who meant well when it woulda been better suited for someone who was simply being preachy and arrogant LOL

I did think that's how you were being though at the time I posted it but see now that judgment was in error. I thought you were giving me the typical snarky "ya know, you should quit, don't you care about yourself or do you want to kill yourself slowly" guilt trip garbage. But after your follow-up reply I see you did have genuine intentions and appreciate your care to the topic. Sorry bout the undeserved quip and thanks for offering the further clarity though based on my reply I probably didn't deserve it :)

[Clovis Sangrail]

245. "but if you truly wanted to quit you would"

may sound trite but it's the truth.
Saying "that's crap" is a cop out.

If people can cold turkey junk you can cold turkey cigs.

When/if you decide quiting is what you really want to do, you'll do it.

[Mythsaje]

267. Have you tried zyban?

It worked for me. I quit for two years and probably would've never smoked again except my wife started up again after six months and I eventually broke down in sheer self-defense. She didn't smoke in the house, but anywhere we went in the car she smoked, she constantly smelled of cigarette smoke, and I eventually just couldn't take it anymore.

But that zyban got me through the initial phases a LOT easier than I'd ever imagined it could be. I'll be doing it again here soon.

[juajen]

323. I have quit for the second time.

It's been more than a year. The first time I quit I used Zyban. It caused my blood pressure to zoom and I had a stroke. Please use caution and make sure you can check your pressure yourself to eliminate this problem. Fortunately, the stroke was not seriously deteriorating, though it did present some problems; the main one concerns my creativity. I am an artist and the stroke seriously affected my drive to paint. The ability is still there, but while it used be an imperative, it's now a whatever.

BTW, the Zyban did help me to quit. However, when I started smoking again, after three years not smoking, I quit cold turkey rather than have a chance of a complication. I still miss smoking dreadfully and the food does not taste better. I feel cheated. LOL

I'm very glad I stopped again. This time it will stick. It's a nasty habit and the costs are exorbitant.

[seabeyond]

327. the food does not taste better. I feel cheated. LOL

lol lol you are funny. food taste just fine smoking too huh lol. well that is probably a good thing cause of the weight gain to do. but really in quitting smoking i never think about weight gain. i have been doing wellbutrin adn havent seen it cut my desire though this morning i put on a patch adn what is it......gosh only four hours, seems like so much more, and i was so proud only one and half cigs. but now that i count on my finger, i am not too awfully impressed lol. sorry about your creative thing. hope it comes flowing back to ya sometime soon

[Mythsaje]

341. Thankfully my blood pressure is pretty stable...

sorry to hear about the stroke. I'm scared to death that's what's going to happen to my father...that or a heart attack.

I also knew a kid who had a stroke at 18. It took him a few years to get back to normal. Very strange.

That's an important warning about something I didn't know...thanks.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

324. Yes, On 3 Different Occasions.

The first try seemed to help a bit, but didn't completely get me over the hump. The second two tries failed miserably, as the medication didn't do anything at all. Kind of strange actually, cause I definitely did feel a slight benefit the first time around, but found none the second and third. Not sure why it didn't affect me the latter tries.

I am very sensitive to medications though and they often have different effects then they do for other people. My chronic fatigue syndrome is a big reason for that probably.

[RebelOne]

270. Believe me, I feel your pain. I have tried everything also.

Even hypnosis and that didn't work.

[katty]

440. not a smoker, but curious, do smokers generally keep

smoking when they have a cold and/or bad cough (because of the cold)? Don't smokers feel like stopping (a least) when they have a cold?

[Yogi]

275. I smoked three packs a day

for over twenty years and I quit so don't give me that I'm addicted shit. I was addicted! You can do anything you want. You just got to want it bad enough. I used the patch and was on them for weeks but now I'm free. May 1, 1999 was my quit date. What will be yours?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

299. You Smoked For Over 20 Years Till You Quit?

Cool. I've only smoked for 17. Guess that means I have 3 more years to go before too can be a self-righteous quitter.

[seabeyond]

310. lol lol...... i did the same calculations

i put on a patch today. someone said lots of quits before we quit. ok. i have three quits so far in a 2 hour period, but..... it was only one cig. lol lol

[juajen]

328. Let me tell you a story

I started smoking at age fifteen. When I quit for the second and last time a year and a half ago, I was 63 years of age. In case math isn't your strong suit, that's 48 years, not counting the three year period of my first cessation. When I quit the first and last time, I was smoking three packs a day.

What really did it for me was the bad feelings in my throat and chest when I awakened, my diagnosis of chron's disease and diabetes and the outrageous cash outlay for the smokes. No way I could justify spending over $300 a month on something I smoked and then threw away, and the health issues were becoming monumental.

I also had severe cases of bronchitis at least two or three times a year. This year, not even a cold; not to mention that I like no longer being a social pariah.

I was so proud of myself. My kids had bets on how long I could go without the cigs, and two of my children quit alongside, one using an aid. Fortunately, I won all bets. I am sorry that both of these kids continue to smoke. I encourage them to keep trying.

In the end, I used a tried and true method; rewards for small successes, one step at a time, and never, never beat yourself up about failures.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

329. I'm Proud Of You As Well.

I think it's great you finally kicked the habit and I wish you the absolute best in your continued success.

:toast:

[Haole Girl]

132. So true...

last I heard, there is no cure for cancer and lung cancer is one of the worst.

We need all the liberals we can get, so take care!

;-)

[progressivebydesign]

223. Not a lecture here.. just my own experiences..

Every single family member that I have or have had, who smoke, and who are even just a few years older than I, have all had heart attacks.. some fatal some not. Not one non-smoking relative has had a heart attack, regardless of age. 99% of relatives that have or had battled cancer, were all smokers. The second half of my mother's life has been ruined from the years she lived with my father, who was a smoker.. and died at 54 (his first heart attack was at 33, but he wouldn't stop smoking or eating red meat or ice cream), my Mom has battled COPD since her early 50s, and never smoked a day in her life.

Not a lecture, but something to really think about when you tell yourself that you cannot quit. I know that many smokers say that they don't care if they die younger, because they're doing something they love to do. But believe me, not one of them felt that way in my family when the cancer or the heart problems started. And I bet my Dad would have loved to have lived past his mid-fifties, and would have given up the smoking if he knew that would happen. It's like not wearing a seat belt.. I can't imagine doing something that I know endangers my life. Life is just too great.. and being sick just blows.

You can quit.. you really can. Bet your family would love to have you around a long, long, time.

[NoodleBoy]

4. TRAITOR!

just kidding dude. anyone who thinks we should all be the same deserves to be a Republican.

[Waya]

5. Duly noted.....

I smoke, love Steak and shop at Wal-Mart occasionally.


:evilgrin:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

6. Great post!!!!!

Brothers and sisters, just like it should be. When people get a little carried away with their preconceived notions, well, I figure that just means they're ready for a bit more education.

Then I nudge them with my big red SUV.

heh heh heh

[rzemanfl]

9. What's a fill up costing you? n/t

[OldLeftieLawyer]

12. I fill up when it's half-down,

and it's been running about thirty bucks. High-test, of course.

[rzemanfl]

52. Must be nice to be rolling in dough. n/t

[OldLeftieLawyer]

68. You kiddin'

You wouldn't believe how I've curtailed my driving in recent weeks. The whole thing has me frazzled beyond belief. No more riding around, and all trips are very carefully planned.

I'm series. This is no time for self-indulgence.

It's also no time to buy a new car, either. This 92 Explorer is in great shape, and what it costs in insurance, taxes, etc., in spite of the gas costs, still makes it a very good car for me. I drive cars until they die.

[rzemanfl]

80. I am so glad I have my '97 Geo Metro and my wife is a block

away from work.

[unblock]

7. amen, we're all on the same side.

i know i've giving you my $0.02 about public smoking (ok maybe it felt a bit more like i nickel) but i recognize that you and i are in agreement about that vast majority of issues that really matter.

the great thing about the democratic party, when it's functioning the way it should, is that it unites people who are not necessarily in agreement about one single damn thing. we all just like being able to speak our minds and have our views taken seriously and respected.

the trick, of course, is how to have that wonderful discourse and yet still have an effective battle mode for when we need to have a united front to fight the banana republicans. but that's a topic for another post....

:hi:

[MADem]

8. GRAB YER PITCHFORKS an' TORCHES....and GET 'IM!!!!!

QUICK!!!! He's headed for the NASCAR race--head him off!!!!!!!!!

Only kidding!!!!!!

[Haole Girl]

136. hee hee

lol:-)

[tammywammy]

10. Excellent post!

I'm a smoking, steak-eating and sometimes Wal-mart shopping democrat. :)

(Though I'm working on the quitting smoking and I prefer Target to Wal-mart, but will never shop at Costco, because I don't want to pay to get in a place to shop.)

[Robb]

14. That could be our new motto

"Democrats... yeah, but we're working on it!" :D

FWIW, the boat I'm in looks strikingly similar. :hi:

[justice1]

48. Cute, I like that

[tandot]

41. Costco supports Democrats and pays a good wage to its employees

We shop there for Splenda, Vodka, Bodywash, and other more expensive stuff that we would pay way more in a regular store (even Walmart). Over the year, the fee we are paying is paid for by the savings. Just look at their website and see what they charge for items you usually buy at the regular grocery store. And they also have coupons for quite a few items each week. Maybe it is worth it for you? :shrug:

[AllieB]

COSTCO ROCKS!

There are great bargains there, and, like you, I shop there because it's so nice to deal with employees who LIKE their job. It's very obvious that their labor practices have made happier employees.

[Zen]

415. Costco does rock

Stock owner here.

[Mr_Spock]

89. I'm paying to get into Costco - I hope it supports workers with good benis

I happen to like Costco - they have high quality food for very decent prices, but I give money to good causes all the time. I'll take Costco + some money over WalMart any day of the week. Haven't been to a WalMart for 2 years - and haven't missed it.

[Hekate]

272. Wall Street's knock on Costco is: they treat their employees TOO WELL

I set aside all my qualms about shopping in a warehouse when I heard that.

They have the best return policy of any store anywhere. Our microwave died after two years -- they took it back. My mother-in-law stepped on her hearing aid -- they repaired/replaced it. My mother refuses to believe me, but if she wanted to she could take her prescriptions to the Costco pharmacy without being a member of Costco -- just walk in and take advantage of their Rx discount.

The only problems I have with them are (1) figuring out how to get a piece of furniture or major appliance home, and (2) being careful with the quantities of fresh produce, since there's only two of us at home. Other people handle problem #2 by splitting with a friend -- I phone my daughter and ask if she'd like half the box of oranges.

The cost of membership is trivial compared to the savings. And I can live with their treating their employees "too well."

Hekate

[Mr_Spock]

300. I signed up within a week of hearing the Wall Street criticism

I put my money where my mouth is.

What I lack in organizational skills for my party I try to make up for by giving money as generously as I can - including organizations that are supportive of liberals and their causes.

[Kali]

305. Yeah but,

doesn't Costco kill baby seals?

[Mr_Spock]

331. lol

:rofl:

Yup, gotta pull out my old "Save the Whales" bumper sticker from the '70's.

I'll just cross off the "whales" and write in "seals" :D

[druidity33]

274. yes, but...

Of the 3 stores you listed, Costco is the only Union shop and actually pays it's employees a LIVING WAGE. I shop at Costco whenever i can... and i buy Citgo gas whenever i can. I do smoke, but like so many others, "i'm quitting real soon"... down to 1 pack a week. Good luck to you!

[SoFlaJet]

11. you BASTARD!!! (I need a winking emoticon)

OPERATIONMINDCRIME
I'm a Smoker Who Drives An SUV, Occasionally Shops At Walmart & Eats Steak

[movonne]

13. Liberals come in all colors..and I'm sure glad of that.. We all march

to a different beat, I think that what makes us Liberal, progressives or any name we like to call ourselves..unlike the repugs.

[Trajan]

15. As a long time union worker ....

I do despise WalMart .... but I eat steaks (rarely) .. (No ... RARELY) .... and drive a Camaro RS (6 cyl. not exactly the WORST case, but not the best either) ....

Look> it is HARD to exist in this crazy world: eating a steak and driving an 'SUV' may be the best you can do ..... maybe WalMart is the best opportunity for you to shop .....

Thats the way it is sometimes .....

We all try to do and be better if and when we can ....

BTW: WalMart ISNT the best priced stuff anymore ..... nor are those itmes that you save 10-20-50 cents on really worth the extra burden Walmart places on society (I.E. YOU) by underpaying its employees .....

Saving 10 cents on a can of beans costs your community more in the long run IF the employees of WalMart cannot afford to pay their own way through life .... The math simply will not reduce the cost of living below the threshold of absolute necessity .... Someone will pay for that: YOU will .... WE will ...

I have other options than WalMart, and so I use them ....

[stillcool]

16. smoker driving a mini-van...

although I don't shop at Walmart....but,we did have rib-eyes for dinner last Sunday. That said, I am trying to get ready...mentally anyway, for my future of gardening, composting, bicycling, and basically hunkering down in survival mode.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

107. My attitude exactly

"and basically hunkering down in survival mode."

:hug:

[JanusAscending]

326. Anyone out there want to by a Mini VAN?

I too, smoke, eat beef, drive a gas guzzler, and used to frequent Walmart until I found out about them!! Seriously, I'm trying to unload my Van, don't need it anymore. One owner car, one driver , me.It's a 1999 Chevy Venture with only 41,000 miles on it. Gotta get it paid off, so I can EAT and buy a smaller 4 cylinder car. I leased this for 4 yrs. before I bought it! Love it, never any problems with it, but the payments and gas now are bleeding me dry!! Any takers or suggestions out there? The smoking thing has got to stop too! I have COPD, and even tho' I buy Generic brands, it cost me $240.00 a month to support my habit! Between that and the car payments, that's more than half of my monthly income. (S.S. widows benefits.) Or hey, any rich old men out there interested in a merger? LOL I think there are going to be a lot of us in this same situation before GWB gets booted out!!

[ScreamingMeemie]

17. None of that would make me think differently of you, it is only that

I don't believe you and I have once agreed on a single thing...and I consider myself a moderate. FWIW, I drive a car that is classified as an SUV (Pacifica) and eat meat regularly, and would shop at WalMart if my finances did not allow me to shop elsewhere. I have never judged a person's political affiliation based on "window dressing", I base my opinion of them on the substance of their posts.

[kanrok]

42. Hey Grumpy

Is Favre gonna retire any time soon?

I eat steak, and my wife drives an SUV. I threw my Sam's Club card away once Costco was built close enough to drive the SUV to. When we're up at the lakehouse in beautiful Wisconsin, the only game on town is Wal-Mart, so we gotta shop there for groceries.

[hfojvt]

59. the smoking and the SUV bother me

Progressives are supposed to care more about the environment than that. I suppose a similar case could be made for steak, but in my experience a large majority of this country is very fond of their steaks - a taste I certainly do not share, but I have eaten some hamburger so it is the same environmentally. I also understand that many decent people are addicted to cigarettes and that, in itself, does not make them indecent. However, to be proud of smoking or to say "I smoke, so what?" does not seem a progressive attitude. Same with Wal-mart. I shop their alot and defend them against what I think are baseless attacks, but I am hardly going to brag about it. I just do not see alot of alternatives. Is Dollar General, Food4Less, or Price Chopper any better?
Have you and I ever agreed on anything? I cannot remember.

[Syncronaut Seven]

100. Why do I keep seeing the phrase

"have you and I ever agreed on anything?"
Noteable trend, common thread, bleedingly obvious conclusion.

[hfojvt]

266. obvious conclusion?

That's cryptic to me, unless you feel we are all talking about OMC.
Actually I believe we have agreed on a number of things, or would, if we were to do a total comparison. However, it may not be seen on this board as I will more typically post to offer what I feel is a correction.

[Name removed]

290. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

301. Could You Be Any More Blatant Of A Trouble Maker There? LOL

I can't respect blatant provocation like that at all. Especially since you are creating it from scratch and falseness since only one poster in the sequence said ANYTHING about generally not seeing eye to eye with me, prior to your absurd statement that it is a trend of sorts. You claimed you keep seeing the phrase, yet you could've only seen it once. Therefore your post in reply was not only far-fetched and inaccurate but also needlessly provocative with the only purpose being to cause trouble. So please understand, the mods are far more savvy than to fall prey to such absurdity.

[Maddy McCall]

227. Hear, hear.

I could post most of what you posted. Sometimes the OP has a tendency to be a grandstander.

:hi:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

232. Oh Really Now, And You Don't? I Wouldn't Mind Seeing You Justify That

though.

I'm not a grandstander. I'm a truth teller. I'm a defender of fairness and innocence. I'm a voice of reason. I thrive on honor and integrity whenever plausible. I am also not perfect, an can at times simply be nothing more than a prick. But I always mean well and always fight for the just cause. But it is nothing about grandstanding. It is simply what it is.

[ScreamingMeemie]

344. I think that is your self appointed onscreen persona.

I really don't think that is who you really are. So many of us are able to shed our inhibitions because we are removed from the reality of a face to face confrontation. It is not simply what it is. Or I'd meet more people like you in my daily rounds.

[Batgirl]

362. All that and a bag of chips.

"I'm not a grandstander. I'm a truth teller. I'm a defender of fairness and innocence. I'm a voice of reason."

A lovely homage to oneself, but perhaps a bit overly modest in word choice.

[CoffeeCat]

18. Confession time...

I drive an SUV...but it's a "chick SUV"...so I'm bad, but not all that bad.

I do shop at Walmart, but I only shop there when I can get free stuff with coupons. Last month, using a $5 Venus Razor coupon--I got $300 worth of free stuff. Drove the cashiers nuts! So...I consider that getting back at Walmart.

I don't eat steak. However, I do enjoy the occasional dolphin burger (ok, just kidding on that one).

My husband and I are looking to buy another car in the coming year. We are considering an SUV with three rows of seats. I'm having a hard time with that. I hate mini-vans, but how else are we going to cart around 5 kids?

I listen to Rush Limbaugh daily. I mainly listen to keep tabs on the snake. However, I have to admit that I admire him. I hate what he says and he's a lying bastard. However, the man is very entertaining and articulate. He's superb at what he does and I really wish the left had someone comparable. Sorry. I know that sucks.

<exits DU confessional with head hanging low>

[OldLeftieLawyer]

22. How'd you do that?

Get $300 worth of free stuff with a $5 coupon?

[CoffeeCat]

28. Free stuff at Walmart....

The Sunday coupon inserts had a "$5 off Any Venus Razor" coupon. Walmart has a Venus razor for $2.94. When I use one of those coupons, I make $2.06.

I get multiple copies of the Sunday coupon inserts, and I also purchased 100 of the "$5 off Any Venus Razor" coupons from Ebay. I also sell the coupons I don't use from the Sunday paper, on Ebay--coupons that I would otherwise throw away. That's how I paid for the Venus razor coupons.

I've used about 150 of these coupons so far. I only use 10 at a time--but each time I get the free razors plus $20 to use on other items. Our grocery bill has been about $10 a week, for the past few weeks.

I have 90 coupons left to use, so I'll get about $500 worth of free stuff when this little party is over. Plus, I'm selling the razors on Ebay (I can't use all 250), and I'll make about $250 doing that.

Crazy, huh?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

32. Sounds like lots of work,

but, hey, it's working for ya, so I say, RIGHT ON!

[debbierlus]

400. How on EARTH did you get 300 dollars of free stuff with a 5 coupon?

????????????

[CoffeeCat]

428. Here is how...

I obtained multiple copies of that $5 Venus Razor coupon. The coupon was in the coupon inserts from the Sunday newspaper. Additionally, since I get so many copies of those Sunday coupons, I sell coupons (that I don't use and would otherwise throw away) on Ebay. I sometimes use the money from those sales to purchase high-value coupons--like the $5 Venus Razor coupon.

Each time I use one of the $5 Venus coupons to buy a $2.94 Venus Razor, I make $2.06. By using 10 of these coupons per shopping trip--I have $20.60 to spend
on other items--such as milk, bread, fruit, veggies, etc.

I'm getting loads of great stuff this week, too. Yoplait yogurt has a 50/2 coupon out now--and a local store has them on sale for 40 cents. I'm getting them for 15 cents. Also, Kraft has a $1/3 any Kraft cheese coupon out. I use these coupons to purchase individual Kraft sticks of string cheese. I get stuff free every week and I'm able to drastically reduce my family's grocery bill--and give loads to needy families, food pantries and shelters.

There's another DUer on here, who is better at this than I am! I'm certainly not the expert, but I do have fun saving money.

:)

[debbierlus]

445. That is GREAT!

Take em for everything you can!

[Horse with no Name]

19. Non-smoker who drives a Jeep, has no choices to shop at WalMart

and loves a good Filet Mignon but will settle for a Rib Eye.
No guilt here either.

[Canuckistanian]

20. OMG, I'm horrified

That you're subjected to guilt trips....

I'm sure glad to have you here.

:toast:

[Terran1212]

21. Not everyone here has their berets and Manifesto?! GASP!!!

; p

[savemefromdumbya]

51. LOL!

[progressivebydesign]

224. Latte! I need my Latte! Where did I park my Volvo?? ?n/t

[Zhade]

413. Are we really to the point...

...where DUers repeat, almost verbatim, the anti-Dean "Vermont crazy liberals" RNC campaign ads?

:crazy:

[Warren DeMontague]

23. Drive what you want

just don't expect sympathy when you're surprised and/or irritated by rising costs of the finite resource you use to fuel that thing.

Eat what you want.
Hey. Your body.

Smoke what you want, and I mean whatever you want-- again, it's your body. But if we're together in an enclosed public space, be that an airplane, a hospital ICU, a restaurant, or even (yes) a bar, by smoking you are currently forcing ME to breathe in your cigarette smoke as well. I don't know too many "liberals" who give a flying philadelphia fuck about what smokers do in the privacy of their own homes, for example. The debate on DU around smoking generally centers around regulations as to when and WHERE people can smoke cigarettes (not as to whether they can smoke them, or whether they should be -like pot smokers- treated as dangerous criminals) ... and, for the record, I don't think there is one blanket, black-or-white solution to that. Different answers seem to work for different situations and locales.

Shop where you want.
I shop at Costco. Better shit than Walmart, great prices, and you'd be very hard pressed to argue that they're NOT a far better corporation to support. But, again, it's your money.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

34. Congratulations

You just drove home the OP's point very well.

Aren't you righteous?

Ugh.

[Warren DeMontague]

39. How was that righteous?

The gist of what I said was, hey, do what you want, it's your business.

Guess I can't have an opinion.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

43. The tone

I'm not sure the OP was looking for your approval, as in, "Hey, it's your body."

The tone. The message was, of course, perfect.

Ha.

[Warren DeMontague]

139. Well, too bad. That's my take on it. And it IS his body.

If he didn't want to hear people's opinions, The OP shouldn't have started a thread - or, at the very least, included a caveat saying that the only responses he was interested in were ones to the effect of "Right on! Fuck those people!"

[OldLeftieLawyer]

141. There's a world of difference

between a smug, self-satisfied lecture - do you really think the OP doesn't know he has a body? - and a thoughtful commentary on whatever the OP said.

Anytime someone takes the time to state the obvious, it's pretty obvious that they've got other agendae on their minds, and yours shone bright and clear.

I wish you tolerance for people who might not make the same choices as you do but who are pretty wonderful people.

[Warren DeMontague]

160. Where do you ever get the idea that I don't "tolerate" people who make

different choices?

Maybe I'm not being clear- my point about "It's your body" isn't meant in a denigrating way. I don't state it because it's obvious, I state it because IT BEARS CONSTANT REPEATING.

Shit, I *WISH* our government lived up to its ideals and acknowledged the basic truth that individuals who don't own or control their own physical person cannot be defined, in any way, shape, or form, as "Free".

"It's your body" to ME, stands for the core of social libertarianism which guides me philosophically. I don't think it's any of the gummint's damn business what consenting adults choose to do with their own bodies, bloodstreams, minds, what-have-you. Euthanasia, drugs, smoking, red meat, the whole guldang kittenkaboodle. As long as they're not harming anyone else in the process.

Now, with regards to smoking cigarettes, I know what they can do- as I said elsewhere upthread, my dad died of lung cancer. But it's not my job -or my style, actually- to hector or lecture, and even if I was so inclined, I don't understand the mentality of people upon who such things actually work, anyway. As I put in my previous post, the debate around smoking on DU does NOT, in my experience, center mostly around whether people should smoke or should be allowed to smoke, but rather where people should be allowed to smoke.

As far as SUVs go- members of my own family drive 'em. And as a parent, I understand the need and appeal to have a lot of room back there. But personally, I think they're obnoxious as all get out. I just do. That, again, is my opinion, and it's generally a matter of taste, the same as I think that 98% of Network television in this country is seemingly written for viewers with single digit IQ points, or that the vast majority of music put out by the corporate music industry these days is unmitigated poop. But with two important caveats: One, I've never been driving on a dark, two lane country highway with a baby in my modest-sized car, and had Ashlee Simpson ride up my ass at ninety miles an hour, dangerously obnoxious with glaring headlights twelve times taller than god in my rear view mirror. The same CANNOT be said for your average massively outsized Ford Mega Range Roving Land D'sploder. I think the "size wars" on our nations highways is a dangerous, increasingly stupid and fairly uniquely Merkin phenomenon, and -number two- frankly, the fact that I support your right to drive whatever the hell you want, free country and all, does NOT mean I have to participate in the inevitable pity parties which crop up every couple months here, when the united Escalade owners of DU all screech bloody fucking murder that gas has hit another high price.

(I could launch into a diatribe about how anyone who understands that the planet earth is a sphere of finite volume and gasoline is made from a substance pumped out of the ground ought to be able to figure out that sooner or later that shit is going to run out, and in the process is going to get more expensive, but I certainly don't want to be accused of 'stating the obvious'.)

Beyond that, the cold hard truth is that most of our problems as a country, a species, and a planet (at least the ones that can't be filed under the word "religion", heh heh) can be categorized or at least affiliated with two words: petroleum addiction. Personally, I DO think it's irresponsible to drive anything that gets crappy mileage unless you really need it, but I don't have the time or the inlcination to try to make that call for anyone except myself, TYVM.

Meat? I don't eat red meat anymore, my cholesterol is down to half of what it used to be, I think factory farming is bad for the consumer, the animals, and the planet, but the only 'agenda' I have with regards to food these days is to make sure that congress (and the food industry) don't roll this outrageous fucking bill through that will override certain states' --AKA California-- tougher and extremely successful (with regards to things like arsenic and mercury, For instance) mandatory food labeling laws. That's my 'agenda' on that.

Like I said, I'm socially libertarian. I think individuals need MORE freedom to be left alone about their personal choices, not less. But that doesn't mean no one has a right to an opinion about those things. I think porn for and by consenting adults should be legal, for instance- but that doesn't mean people aren't entitled to their opinion that, for instance, most of it sucks or is hopelessly inane.

But personally, I'd much rather have someone whose motto is "hey- it's your body" running things than the current crop of authoritarian pinheads- whose motto seemingly is, "Hey- It's OUR Body"

[OldLeftieLawyer]

163. You're protesting far too much,

and that just proves my point that you blew it with your initial response, which really was mean.

Peace.

Rest now.

[Warren DeMontague]

166. Mm Hmmm.

Come back when you actually read what I wrote.

Taa Taa.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

277. Good - you got it

I won't be back, because, frankly, what you wrote - I started reading it, and got bored - was not of interest to me nor was it relevant to the OP. Your personal obsession, and bless you for it, is your business. Not mine.

You will do well when you realize that none of this is personal. I wish you luck and tolerance for others.

[Warren DeMontague]

346. For someone who seems awfully concerned about "winning" debates

you really ought to work on your technique.

But, in case it's not clear- the fact that you admitted that you didn't originally read what I wrote, presumably intuiting enough about it (psychically, perhaps?) to accuse me of 'protesting far too much', while at the same time you couldn't be 'bothered' to figure out how that post (and my so-called "personal obsession" LOL) was relevant to the OP...

...proves MY point that you didn't know what you were talking about when you reflexively called my original comments "righteous". (as in "self", presumably)

But, you know, nothing personal.

Peace.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

347. There you go again

No one ever said a thing about "winning" (your word) "debates" (your word again). It was about an exchange of ideas and thoughts, not preaching, not ranting, not namecalling - all of which are laid squarely at your door.

Now, because you've proven yourself worthy to dwell forever in the damp, dark place known as IgnoreLand, there you go, and I won't have to be bothered trying educate you any more.

So long, sweetie, and I do hope your compassion will someday guide in a direction that brings you to a place of joy.

<click>

(Now, watch this one post a response, even though it's being Ignored. Why do people do that, I wonder?

heh heh heh)

[Warren DeMontague]

350. I'm not afraid of anyone's ideas and thoughts on this board enough

to actually use that function.

I realize you're not reading this. That's fine. I would only suggest, to the aether, perhaps, that exchanging ideas and thoughts (and, dare I say it, "education") begins with actually paying attention to what the other person has to say. (for that, along with 'concerned with winning debates', I draw the jury's attn. to Post #277)

If you read up through our exchange, I think it becomes fairly clear whose posts contain actual ideas and thoughts- and whose sound preachy and flip.

[suziedemocrat]

289. Self Delete

[Mr_Spock]

90. I thought it was a very thoughtful counter

Is it not allowed to respond to someone who has chosen to post what is obviously an invitation to flame?

Who's being rightous?? :wtf:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

104. What?

I didn't understand what you wrote. Sorry.

[Mr_Spock]

108. lol

see below post

[OldLeftieLawyer]

118. Argument?

Asking for clarification is funny?

Well, you're easily amused. Good for you.

[Mr_Spock]

119. Ooops, I edited

See below! :D

[Mr_Spock]

116. Damn, I tried to edit it

You are right, it doesn't make any sense :(

I messed up a pronoun or two in the post :rofl:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

120. You were too busy laughing

Entertaining yourself can be so self-absorbing, it would seem.

Now, it no longer matters.

Someone's wound up, huh?

[Mr_Spock]

122. lol - well these sort of posts tend to be entertaining

I know some people get pretty wound up in them.

I thought you were humoring me because you were into the post, but it turns out that I typed that post in another universe and now I can't edit it!

No harm, no foul :D

[file83]

342. 'Wound up'? LOL - project much?

Dude, your the one who is wound up, Mr. Sensitive. Just look at all the "you're righteous" posts!:rofl:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

348. Hey,

read back, and see that my partern in this dialogue brought up "wound up." It became a joke, but you didn't get it.

You were too busy trying to score some kind of bad spelling point, I guess, so you missed the whole thing.

Oh, and guess what?

Women are lawyers now, too. We have been for years and years.

Welcome to the 20th century.

Dude.

You misspelled "righteous," as well.

Thanks for the laugh, though. Not too often I encounter a dinosaur on these boards.

[file83]

356. I feel sorry for your clients...

Flip of a coin, so you're a woman, I guessed wrong.

However, these are things you can't guess about:

• It's no longer the 20th century. (hello!)
  
• I spelled "righteous" correctly. (I'm not the author of post #90, Ms. Attorney)
  

:think: Chick.

[Mend]

24. moo-ooo-oooooooo

that is the sound the baby calf makes when he is ripped away from his mother right after birth and put in a box for months and then killed. Hear his ghostly cries while you are chewing.

[liberalpress]

280. Burp, burp!

That's the sound I make after chewing the on the remains of the little calf.

(Also some times say "Yum, yum" but that's for a different post.)

[Mr_Spock]

425. That's veal - I gave that up due to a liberal!!

I used to drink at this Irish bar in Boston & the barmaid was the sister of a friend of mine. She was pretty liberal as was her family. She posted a little one page blurb showing a calf chained up in a box looking over her shoulder with big cow eyes. There was an accompanying paragraph describing how they were fed antibiotic filled feed their entire lives which made them have diarrhea for their entire short life. They basically stand there chained up in a small box standing in their excrement their entire lives. Once slaughtered the antibiotic infested slaughtered baby cow meat is sold for huge money as veal.

For some reason that little piece of paper made me unable to eat veal for the rest of my life. I like full grown cows mind you, I just can't eat slaughtered baby cows.

[Yollam]

449. I can't eat veal of foie gras either.

And after seeing the video of KFC workers STOMPING on live chickens, I couldn't eat there anymore either (their chicken doesn't taste that good these days anyway).


I'm not a PETA type, but I would rather the meat I eat not be from animals that were TORTURED.

[jsamuel]

25. yes, liberals need to remember that stereotypes always lead to wrong concl

usions... whether they are ones made up by the right or left

[mongo]

26. Right there with ya

Although I drive an escort most of the time, and my pickup when I need it.

The one thing you forgot in the list that doesn't make us less liberal: I own some guns.

[patdem]

27. Try being a repuke who believes in choice...an athiest and only

wears berkenstocks..and see how far you get on freek republik

[Kali]

29. Diversity

is a very good strategy for survival. The overly self-righteous (and I include myself in that class occasionally) need to remember that basic tenet of ecology. Monocultures are dangerous.

I don't smoke, try to avoid wallyworld, drive 8 cylinder vehicles, own a couple guns, and not only eat meat, but raise it for a living.

Thanks - sometimes I do feel alone!

[Viva_La_Revolution]

109. Yum. Dead Cow!

And I mean that sincerely.

signed,
Former Ranch Girl

:hi:

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

30. Self-righteous judgments and guilt trips are a by-product of being here...

During the 2004 campaign, threads like "I just donated...did YOU?"

Every time DU has a fund drive: "I just donated...did YOU?"

SUV guilt threads.

People posting in threads for the sheer joy of lifting their hind leg on the original poster and taking a squirt.

Lurking freeper trolls with 1000+ posts, hanging out like DU is their own little sleeper cell.

It's a public message board.

We have wonderful people here.

Passionate, politically active, smart as hell, funny as hell...

AND we have some children. Children compelled to "define" the term "liberal" and then squeeze you into the mold they made. What gives them the frigging right?

We set our own moral compass. That's the way it should be. People who tell you what to do and how to do it need to clean up their own backyard first.

Illegitimis non carborundum.

:patriot:

[Wilms]

31. Thanks for posting.

For a while there, I had the crazy notion that SUV's were wrecking the planet at twice the rate of vehicles that use half the gas.

[kath]

53. Crazy notion, indeed.

Sometimes I have the same notion myself. But I guess I need to shut up...

[Name removed]

33. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NJ Democrats]

35. I do all of the above except for

smoking.
I LOVE Steak. You will never get me not to eat it. (Unless it has Mad Cow Disease.)

[Solo_in_MD]

36. We all are sinners...

- I like guns
- I ride motorcycles and have a real beat up ancient SUV for when I can't
- I eat meat with gusto
- Wal-Mart is a major supplier when you are a geo-batchelor
- I attempt to add facts to discussions of military and weapons issues here on DU.
- I invoke Occam's Razor with some regularity

I expect the latter will get me kicked one of these days. Until then, we need to be the party of the big tent.

[yewberry]

37. Meh, your vote's as good as mine is

and nobody likes to be judged (or mocked.)

[tandot]

38. I love a good steak (Costco's Rib-Eyes) and still shop at Walmart

I quit smoking 12 years ago, though...hardest thing ever.

I don't drive an SUV myself, but I don't judge people who do. My boyfriend has a 1994 Isuzu Rodeo that he bought used 5 years ago. It gets about 22 mpg and I get about 37 mpg with my Corolla.

However, until today, I bought my tires at Walmart, because they were the cheapest. For the first time today, I went to a locally owned small tire store around the corner for 2 new tires for my 1998 Toyota Corolla. He first gave me a price of $170. Seeing the shocked look on my face, he asked me what I wanted to pay. I told him that I wanted to support local business and that I previously bought all of my tires at Walmart. I explained that I know that he probably can't beat Walmart's price, but that I would rather support a local business. At the end, I got 2 new tires for $111 and a great feeling of supporting a small business.

It is a baby step and I'll still buy some stuff at Walmart. Sorry, guys. There is just so much you can do when you are not rich. We do as much as we can with the income we have.

[DemExpat]

44. ....bless your heart....:-)

I saw you getting in a clinch on another thread about driving a car....More unites us than divides us here at DU, IMHO.

:hug: :kick:

DemEx

[GOPNotForMe]

201. Are you from the South? nt

[peacefreak]

45. You do what ya gotta do.

I was self-punished when I went there after work & stood next to a kid getting into the echo of his screams. It was hell.

[porphyrian]

46. Liberals, by definition, shouldn't have a problem with that.

It seems many of us feel totalitarianism is OK when it serves our pet interests. I'm certainly guilty of hypocrisy myself. Freedom isn't just for the people who act the way we think they should.

[DanCa]

47. live and let live thats my motto.

I don't smoke, but I don't believe in bans I am a Democrat. Steak I love steak pass the A-1
Wal-mart I hear you times are tough today. I got to spread out my 427 a month ssdi check any way I can. About the SUV I have bigger fish to fry. I wish my hands wouldn't shake so much so that I can't drive. It's no skin off my nose if you drive an SUV and thank you for votting Democrat. Hell if we ever get stem cell research they may just discovery a therapy that may cause my tremors to subside just enough so that I can be able to drive again.

OperationMindCrime your a good guy and a great friend. Don't let people who want a utopian fantasy unnerve you. Hell some people want to purify the pond so much that you can't live on the planet.
Hang in there my friend if you need me pm.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

50. DanCa ..........

You so totally ROCK!!!!

Thanks for summing it all up so well. I hope things go well for you.

[tandot]

66. You almost made me cry, DanCa!

I hope they'll find a cure for you and all the other people who suffer. I am sending positive thoughts your way :hug:

[enigmatic]

79. you're one of the good ones, Dan

Seriously; I know we haven't talked much, but I always enjoy your posts and I know of your struggle and just wanted to let you know that you'll always have good vibes from me...

[Just Me]

88. I thought a bit of tolerance was at the core of being liberal:

,...accepting none of us are perfect but perfecting in our own way; respecting limits, including our own; embracing the positive aspects of ourselves while acknowledging our weaknesses.

Decency, dignity, and a genuine desire to connect and to make life better for everyone.

That kind of stuff.

You're a good guy, Dan. :hug:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

112. Dan, As Always, My Friend,

Thank you and God Bless. I hope with all of my heart that stem cell research does in fact come through for you someday. I respect the hell out of ya too bro. :)

(and I gotta just say, I started this thread out of impulse right before leaving the house to take my wife to red lobster for her birthday. I came back home, refreshed DU to see what was goin on, and almost fell to the floor to see this thread on top with 126 replies in the time I ate dinner. Holy cow! I figured it was gonna be a 'get it off my chest but I know it'll sink quick' thread LOL)

[WildEyedLiberal]

182. DanCa...

:hug:

[guidod]

49. Die of cancer if you like and

drink all the gas you want, it's your money and your life. JUST STAY AWAY FROM WAL-MART!!!!! Every time you put on a shirt or buy a toy for your child I want you to stop and think about all of the abused women in China. Everything Wal-Mart sells comes from a sweatshop in China. They force the women, even if married, to live in dorms and work 17 hour shifts, 7 days a week for $3.00 a day. If they get pregnant they force them to have abortions.

Have you ever done any research on Wal-Mart? Do you know how they abuse their own employees? Do you know that many of their emplyees have to be on welfare just to get by? Do you know they won't EVER put a woman in a managerial position? Do you know Wal-Mart usually destroys Moms & Pops style businesses in what ever town they go into. Do you know if a employee at Wal-Mart brings up the word UNION he's fired.

There's a hour and a half DVD about Wal-Mart in some markets, I suggest you find it and watch it then ask yourself how liberal it is to shop at Wal-Mart.

Like I said die of cancer if y ou want, it's your life, and drink all the gas you can swallow and afford. Just DON'T SHOP AT WAL-MART! There are other places to shop for clothes.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

54. Snap out of it

For some people, that's the only place they can afford to shop.

Open your mind, for heaven's sakes. There are PEOPLE involved on this end, too, not just sweatshop kids abroad.

[guidod]

74. I refuse to SNAP OUT OF IT when it comes to Wal-Mart

Read and watch post #88.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

77. Then you're stuck

And I always feel sorry for people who are stuck.

They fail to understand the human problems of others, and that's unfortunate.

[guidod]

96. No, I'm not stuck.

If you watch that hour and a half movie about Wal-Mart "The High Cost of Low Prices" you would see what I mean. Did you know that Wal-Mart, alone, drives down retail wages by 3 billion dollars a year. I've seen some of your posts before and you seem like a very informed person. I would be willing to bet you that if you watched that DVD you would change your mind about Wal-Mart. It's well worth the money.

I will never give up when it comes to Wal-Mart.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

101. I've seen it, and I've lived with the people

whose lives have been rent asunder by WalMart taking over their communities, including my home town.

Rant all you want, and I applaud your desperate and narrow passion, but your inability to comprehend that some people just don't have the luxury of the choices that you so arbitrarily demand means that you're missing the much more important part of the whole picture, and that, my friend, is human compassion.

You're operating in a vacuum, and people don't thrive there. Some people aren't quite as fortunate as you, and are limited in what their choices might ever be.

[guidod]

143. This is not a rant, and how dare you

tell me I lack human compassion and I don't have the ability to comprehend the position that some find themselves in and the lack of choices they may have. You don't know anything about me yet you can make an assumption about my morals and values. You don't know how fortunate I am or how unfortunate I am, but there's one thing we know for sure, and that, my friend, is you certainly are talking like a horses ass.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

145. I know nothing about you

I read your words and your digging in and I drew my own conclusions.

Take it for what it's worth.

And behave. There's no call for that kind of language here.

[guidod]

148. I appologize to you for the rude language,

at the same time I think it was rude of you to make assumptions about someone you have never met. All you know is your own inturpretations of my words, nothing more.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

152. Relax and "duh"

Of course that's all I read, and from your words, I drew my conclusions. That's called "reading," and if you don't want your words to be misinterpreted, write more carefully.

It's a message board, not a personal connection, so relax and don't take it personally.

Your apology is accepted. Let's start over again some other time.

[guidod]

158. Good for me...

...words are always difficult to understand when you put your own emphasis on them. Peace

[Horse with no Name]

91. And for me

It's the only other store in town besides a local grocery store that everytime I buy frozen food there I have to take back because it is rotten.
Of course I could put my ass in my SUV and drive 40 miles one-way.
So my choices are:
1. Buy food that is most of the time rotten with limited choices
2. Spend $15 on gas driving to the next town
3. Shop at Walmart

Sometimes we just do the best we can do, you know?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

103. Indeed

It's about how things are, and we do the best we can. Sometimes we deal with the devil, but, tell me - when have we not had to deal with the devil? It's life, and it's about compromise and doing the best we can.

I'm getting fed up with these people who think things are pure and simple and who don't have a clue as to how complicated and difficult life can be for most people, and who demand that everyone conform to their ideas of what "liberals" do with their lives.

Yeah, I know. Thanks.

[liberalpress]

286. Lefty, methinks you have struck the proverbial nail..

... on the proverbial head. There's "the way we wish things to be" and "the way things are"

Until we can get the majority of people to agree with us on the former (there's a few generations of work for us!), life will always be a compromise. Until then, I think you'll agree, it's in everybody interest to do "the best we can."

[druidity33]

279. i understand...

I have lived in an area remote from "convenient" stores. While i tried to limit trips and exposure to Wal-Mart by joining a CSA, a local food buying/town co-op... there were just things that were so much easier and cheaper to obtain at the Big Box. It takes a whole lot of work and some degree of personal sacrifice to avoid places like Wal-Mart altogether. If your life is as manic as mine, it's enough to just keep it together on a daily basis... to not have to worry about having toilet paper next week if Martha on the west end holds up the co-op order again... or wondering when the shovel will be available from the Community tool-shed tomorrow, because you are hoping to plant the leftover (runt) blueberry bushes from the farmer next door's orchard expansion...

I think you said it well at the end there:
"Sometimes we just do the best we can do, you know?"

We should all help to Unionize the employees of Wal-Mart... multiple "salters" should be installed at every Wal-Mart across the Nation to INFORM the workforce of the BENEFITS of Unionization...

A lotta shoulds, i know...

Holding hands, singing a song...

[guidod]

70. On second thought

let me do yur homework for you. PLEASE WATCH AND READ.

http://www.walmartmovie.com/teaser_qhi.php

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html

http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060416/OPINION/604160319/1046

[Kali]

110. I think you are missing the point

and trying to "educate" the wrong person.

[guidod]

146. If I'm missing the point

I'll be the first to admit it. So please clue me in on what you think the point is.

[Kali]

183. The point that I was refering to

was that your attempts to "educate" OLL were redundant. He/she already saw the movie, understands walmart is evil. His/her beef, if I may speak for someone else, had to do with the attitude of some people, possibly yourself included, that did not seem to allow for the fact that not everybody has the luxury of making some of the choices you and other do.

Further, even some with the abilty and means to make all the "correct" choices are free to make them or NOT, as well. It does not mean we aren't on the same side for the big important matters, or for the majority of lesser concerns. Continuums and diversity, that's my "motto" for this thread.

[guidod]

206. You're right, It was my way

of over reacting to the opening thread. If you can afford to drive a SUV and eat steak, you should probably pay another dollar for your underwear and stay out of Wal-Mart. Believe me, staying away from my own history, I know exactly what it's like to have very little.

I realize that everyone has a free choice and do as they please, which I know I can't stop. For me, Wal-Mart IS one of the important matters. It really opened my eyes when I saw what those ladies, and men, are going through in China because of companies like Wal-Mart. I don't know if you saw the DVD "The High Cost of Low Prices" or not, but it certainly got my blood boiling. Peace

[OldLeftieLawyer]

375. Thanks, Kali

Sometimes it's just a case of "scratch a so-called liberal, find a Mother Superior."

Narrow minds are not necessarily limited to Republicans or rightwingnut fundies, are they?

Thanks for the backup.

We're under a big tent. I hope everyone can join us.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

237. Here's the point:

Everyone here knows Wal-Mart is evil.

However, many people do not have the luxury of a viable alternative for their shopping needs. I'll give you a personal example:

I attended college in a small town in Texas. Wal-Mart was the ONLY store available for groceries, etc., particularly for college students on a budget.

I checked your profile and discovered that you and I live in the same area. Los Angeles currently does not have a Wal-Mart (fortunately) and has many viable alternatives due to the sheer size of the city. Now I'm able to shop at stores with much better records on labor and other issues than Wal-Mart does.

But my and your experiences are different than most people. There's no "one size fits all" mentality for anybody, particularly liberals, who are already extremely diverse as it is.

[seabeyond]

144. die of cancer

people like you bother me AS much as people (no more) that go to walmart. say it again, oh you did. ok two three ten hundred times more, die of cancer. not that the odds are in favor smoking will cause death from cancer, but keep saying it. you sound like you wish it on someone. what does that make you...... oh ya, mean

[Iowa]

386. This isn't entirely accurate...

Do you know they won't EVER put a woman in a managerial position?

I know this is false. There ARE women in managerial positions at Wal-Mart. In fact, there have been three who were top-dog at the store in my town - and four men since the store has been in operation... plus a number of assistant managers who have been women. Yes, they suck, but their owners do enough to damn themselves without creating things out of thin air.

Do you know Wal-Mart usually destroys Moms & Pops style businesses in what ever town they go into.

Yes, that is true. However, from a purely political perspective, a good portion of those Moms and Pops are hard-core Chamber-of-Commerce types who can be found hobnobbing with other Moms and Pops at republican card parties (yes, believe it or not, we have those in our community), the local country club, or the republican primary in the school gym. And when Wal-Mart wipes them out, the Bush/Cheney yard signs are still proudly displayed in their lawns. While there are certainly fellow Dems who operate small retail shops, there aren't too many in my town. My sympathy is reserved for them.

Just DON'T SHOP AT WAL-MART! There are other places to shop...

No, that isn't always true. Didn't you also claim that much of the competition is wiped out when Wal-Mart enters a town? And what some here don't always think about is that a huge portion of this country lives in relatively remote rural areas. If you are 40-50 miles from a good sized community, it doesn't always make sense to drive 100 miles for day-to-day items. We shop at other places when we can, but sometimes there just isn't a reasonable alternative. Regarding Costco... Iowa has only ONE - a six hour drive for me. Some states have none.

Bottom line... Wal-Mart is a bad company - I believe you're right. Avoiding them is good, but only if you aren't going to a place that isn't also buying sweat-shop products, and only if the place you're going to pays its employees a living wage, and only if it's reasonably doable for you (like not burning three gallons of gas to avoid spending $10 at Wal-Mart). Nothing is ever perfectly black and white.

[savemefromdumbya]

55. Prefer Sam's aaargh!

Flour and ground meat is a good deal there. Also They have free tasties!

Do I have to do 7 Hail Mary's?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

65. And one "Vatican Rag"

Remember that? Or are you too young?

First you get down on your knees,
Fiddle with your rosaries,
Bow your head with great respect,
And genuflect, genuflect, genuflect!

Do whatever steps you want, if
You have cleared them with the Pontiff.
Everybody say his own
Kyrie eleison,
Doin' the Vatican Rag.

Get in line in that processional,
Step into that small confessional,
There, the guy who's got religion'll
Tell you if your sin's original.
If it is, try playin' it safer,
Drink the wine and chew the wafer,
Two, four, six, eight,
Time to transubstantiate!

So get down upon your knees,
Fiddle with your rosaries,
Bow your head with great respect,
And genuflect, genuflect, genuflect!

Make a cross on your abdomen,
When in Rome do like a Roman,
Ave Maria,
Gee it's good to see ya,
Gettin' ecstatic an'
Sorta dramatic an'
Doin' the Vatican Rag!

[savemefromdumbya]

67. Thanks for that!

[JanusAscending]

220. I do remember that song, ,,but who recorded it?

I keep thinking Arlo Guthrie? or someone from his genre'. I won't go to sleep now 'til I remember it!! HELP!!

[Dunvegan]

255. Vatican Rag was written and recorded by Tom Lehrer...brilliant satirist

...you can read about Lehrer's social commentary genius at Wikipedia HERE.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

276. Tom Lehrer

And if you're that close to remembering Tom, it's time for you to go and refresh your recollection of him, because he was nothing but a genius: http://www.casualhacker.net/tom.lehrer/

[JanusAscending]

325. Honey I'm more than that close!

My problem is , at age 67,I suffer from "CRS," I'm sure you've heard of that disease? It's becoming more and more common. Especially here on DU!! Now that you've refreshed my memory, yes, it's all becoming clear now!! LOL:silly: DC...(Can't Remember Shit !!!!!)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

332. Holy S****!!!!!!!!!

You're older than I AM!!!

Hey, you know what?

If we can't remember it, it's not worth remembering.

:toast:

[readmoreoften]

56. I try not to judge, but I also try not to make excuses.

I'm a non-smoker who fights for smokers rights. Smoking has nothing to do with "liberalism". It's pretty much an addiction. My father and my partner both smoke and I wish they weren't so ostracized because of it. (For example, my father can't fly because he has anxiety attacks if he goes too long without cigarettes.)

I also believe there is a time and place for SUVs. My Texan in-laws (or should I say out-laws since I'm gay) NEED to drive trucks. People who live on difficult terrain and need to haul garbage to the dump can't survive with only a VW bug. That being said, there are a lot of people who have no practical reasons for owning an SUV. They don't have kids or dogs and they live in the city. They get no passes as far as I'm concerned. We all engage in selfish and destructive behavior-- I am NO exception. But don't ask me to pat you on the back for it.

I also have no issue with steak. I do have issue with the loads of crap injected into the cows that eventually become your steak and the conditions of laborers in meatpacking plants.

Shopping at WalMart, if you can financially avoid it, is like doing business with your enemy. If you need to do it to survive, who can fault you. But if you're just lazy and selfish and you don't feel like driving another two feet to the Costco, then you're just asking people for a pass again.

Honestly, your beliefs don't matter unless you act on them. I'd say that your vote matters, but I'm pretty sure that our votes don't matter anymore. Do what you think is right, act on what you feel to be the most important issues for progressives, but there's no reason to come here and demand that everyone approve of your behavior. If you think it's right, what do you care what anyone on DU thinks? There are many things I do that other people on DU disagree with and I could hardly give a shit.

[williesgirl]

57. Smoker, drive an 87 Honda but can't afford the gas, love steak when I can

afford it! Love all DUer's regardless of our quirks. Loved my late husband like mad even though he liked Reagan! Our daughter grew up with VERY interesting dinner discussions. Keeps us on our toes to live with one - sure wish I had him here now. Know he'd hate * though. Too good, decent, kind not to.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

113. williesgirl

to DU!

[SPKrazy]

58. Well, I Shop At Wal Mart And Eat Beef

so I can appreciate that part.

Quit smoking though, we need you alive!!!!

As for the SUV, I suspect you won't be driving as much this summer, so enjoy.

[dysfunctional press]

60. personally, walmart is where i draw the line...

i don't care what anyone drives, eats, or wears...i have no need for an suv, but if i did, i wouldn't hesitate to own one. i love red meat- although i am more partial to seafood, especially sushi.
but i refuse to set one toe inside a walmart store- they are evil incarnate.

oh, and i don't smoke...tobacco.

[Uncle Roy]

61. My kinda guy! Will you marry me??? (nfm)

[ploppy]

64. Well hi Ed!

I didn't know you posted here! :P LOL I am teasing!

[SammyWinstonJack]

69. !

:applause: Right there with ya. The SUV bashing threads slay me. How self righteous they are! Along with the Walmart bashing threads. Some people have no other options, either financially or logistically.

[liberalpress]

287. EXACTLY...

... If all SUV's are bad, that would also include my Hybrid which gets 30 mpg, produes 50% fewer CO2 emissions, and 80 percent less other pollutants. I feel so ashamed.

[Zen]

393. That doesn't make sense

It is about gas mileage - it seems defensive to me to get caught up in the term SUV.

[liberalpress]

431. Agreed.... it's just a hot button for some people..

their minds close around the equation SUV=BAD and they can't get past it.

[seabeyond]

71. i respect you tons, love you lots. your suv leaves me blind

and puts my life and others at risk. and that is just wrong. other than that operation i am so with you. i had the perfect example. a truck making two lane out of a wide single lane. first error. leave it be at one lane, there is a reason if there is not a line. then he stops as if to turn on a street, but seeing how i cant see anything i dont have a clue it is because kids are crossing the street and as i come up to the front of his truck, the kids pop out, i slam on breaks (was going very slow cause i couldn't see and didn't know what the fuck was going on) then.... they acted like i was the retard to almost hit the kids. pissed me off.

pulling out of my parking space hummer one side, suv the other. oh ya. i can see. i pull out oh so slow. wanted to send my 10 yr old out to wave me out of my parking space.

so

as you feel comfortable and safe in your suv, just a heads up on the danger you and so many others cause us. my family all have these huge ass vehicles, (to keep their family safe). i have always held they have the right to make their choice and i want them to really love their buy, regardless of what i chose or feel. when i was car hunting they all were trying to talk me into getting one so i could keep my family safe. but.... it just kept going thru my head that the poor will never have these vehicles to keep their family safe, and in all good conscience, i could not put them at risk, for the safety of me and family.

i dont expect others to have the same battle as me or conscious dilemmas. but.... i am sharing on the suv thing. it is getting worse. and it is getting harder for the little car to drive. little? well one of the safest bigger little cars, lol lol. saturn 300L

[seabeyond]

72. btw, i smoke, eat meat, a little red meat. i cuss, .... a lot

and drive fast. and just every once in a while go to walmart.

[Mythsaje]

269. They ARE so hurking big, aren't they?

I hate having to edge past them to make a right hand turn because I can't see if there's traffic coming. Kinda scary sometimes.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

314. I Agree With Ya Here And In Your Other Posts

I know exactly what you mean with the frustration of getting in and out of parking spaces flanked by those big ass SUV's and trying to navigate through them, as well as on the roads and such. I hate especially when they pull up on either side of you on a one lane road to make a right when you're tryin to make a left, and then you can't see a goddamn thing comin from the other way. I agree with you that is a danger and it frustrates me as well. My suv is by no means a large one or a tank by any standard, it's just a chevy blazer which is definitely the small end of suv's. But I hear ya, that is a definite downside to all the suv's on the road; having to deal with still having a safe line of sight.

[seabeyond]

319. ty.

yes the blazer is doable for a car. so are the smaller family vans, not so bad. their windows are low enough i can see thru to other traffic sometimes. and over their top at the lights. suburbans, hummers and those monster trucks are the worst

but thank you for validation

[guidod]

75. MY BIGGEST PET PEEVE IS WAL-MART AND

THE DRAFT. Everyone should watch and read post #88.

[enigmatic]

76. I've got your back

No one, NO ONE on this board is 100 percent pure on "liberal" issues, and anyone claiming to be pure is a flat-out liar.

We're all flawed human beings and we live in a complex world that's getting harder to live by the day, under increasingly impossible circumstances. We're all trying to survive, some better than other, but trying to survive nonetheless.

The whole "I'm more liberal than you because I (fill in the blank) disgusts me in more ways than I can possibly articulate, and those who push that agenda are no better than the right-wing fundies that brow-beat anyone who doesn't live by their own perfect "rules" and deem them not worthy. I have zero use for them.

We're all (hopefully) on this board because we believe in the Democratic ideals; intolerance never has been and never will be one of those ideals.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

81. Shaddup, ya filthy liberal

<smoooooooooooch>

[enigmatic]

82. Hey, Mrs. E's watching!

Oh, what the hell......:)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

83. Hey..........

there was no tongue ...............

heh heh heh

[Herman47]

78. Vegetarian, who doesn't own an SUV...

Heck, I don't even own a car. Heck, for that matter, I don't even have a driver's license and never have. Do have a bicycle, and use public transportation.

Have shopped at Walmart about once every five years, but will likely never do it again.

Liberal isn't just who you are, it's also how you live.

[LeftyMom]

86. Thank you and welcome to DU.

BTW, we have a veg group (It's under Groups, then Politics, Issues and Media.) Feel free to come check it out. :D

[Beaverhausen]

436. "Liberal isn't just who you are, it's also how you live." Wonderful!!!

Thanks for that post.

I don't eat meat, drive a Prius, no Wal-Mart, I recycle everything I can, and I even turn lights out when I walk out of a room.

This thread is crazy. I see it was started on Earth Day no less.

[Douglas Carpenter]

84. Great Post -- Recommended..I don't drive an SUV but do other things

a lot less politically correct that that.

And I'm so left-wing my heart beats on the left.

I was raised going to fundamentalist Sunday School. I don't need nor will I accept nor will the vast majority of Americans or anyone else especially the downtrodden and oppressed of the third world EVER accept a left-wing or right-wing or any other wing version of secular fundamentalist guilt trips.

Communism died because it just wasn't any fun.

Thank again! Great post!



http://www.dontattackiran.org

[Skip Intro]

85. Why do you drive an SUV?

If you don't mind me asking...

[vikegirl]

111. I'd like to know, too.

If it's for work, or you have a large family, or live in rugged terrain, on a farm, et al., then I have no problem with SUV drivers.

If it's purely cosmetic, or you're trying to overcompensate, or you're driving one to feel like THE MAN (or woman), then...well, I feel I'm justified in being judgmental and self-righteous.

I have no problems with smokers, Wal-Mart shopping (if circumstances call for it), or carnivores or anything else you mentioned. EVERYONE here is a good liberal, IMHO. :-)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

121. I Drive An SUV Because

Oh, wait, that's right. It's none of your business why LOL

[Skip Intro]

217. why the rude, dismissive reply?

It was an honest question, and a question alone.

No need to be a jerk about it.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

226. Because It Seemed Like A Pointed Question With Baiting Intent.

Such as that you would be grading or judging my reply as to why. I was about to tell you the reasons why when it occurred to me that I felt like I was justifying something that shouldn't have to be justified because those reasons are irrelevant, since it is my business. It wasn't meant as overly jerky, it was meant in reply merely as factual. It really is none of your business why and I don't feel the need to ask you as to what your reasons are for buying your car either.

[Maddy McCall]

229. As if your OP wasn't.

:eyes:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

233. Actually, I Thought The Message Was Quite Well Given And Received.

And on a side note, please get those eyes checked. They keep moving around erratically and I've seen them do that in a lot of other people's threads too. I hope your healthcare covers the checkup, it may really be a serious problem.

[Skip Intro]

234. well, you started the thread...

the thread about eating steak and shopping at walmart and driving suv's - I thought it was up for discussion...

:shrug:

at any rate, you're absolutely right - it is none of my business

here's to you - burning as much oil, eating as many dead animals, supportng companies that kill competition with slave-wage products - all you want, in beautiful denial of the consequences...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

236. So My Original Reply Tone Was Spot On Then. But In Any Case Please

read this, as it is as much for you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=998375&mesg_id=1000892

[Skip Intro]

240. yeah, no, ok, whatever...you were right to be rude because you correctly

surmised I have a different opinion than you?

ok, fine.

now that that's out of the way, the only thing I asked you was why do you drive an SUV. That's all I asked.

Does it not bother you that so much blood has been spilled/is being spilled in a mad quest for oil by our current "leadership?" Our nation's kids are dying for that oil. Does that not have any bearing on you when you pump gas into a vehicle that runs thru it at an obscenely rapid rate?

[vikegirl]

248. Ignore me....

I'm used it it. Not with 10000 posts. Huh.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

251. I'm Sorry I Left You Out. Didn't Mean That. I Drive an SUV Because

Oh. Wait, that's right. It's none of your damn business either as to why LOL

[vikegirl]

253. Okay. You got me.

Then why announce you should drive one?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

256. LOL Sorry, Had To Do It.

Wasn't really announcing it for the sake of pride or anything. It was just part of a larger picture of persecution that many of us here face for certain things we say or things we buy, that comes off as trying to bring us down to levels beneath them as if they are liberal and we aren't. My thread was to declare that absurd, and that we are every bit as liberal. As far as why I have the Chevy Blazer? Well, needed a car that could fit the double stroller and two big car seats and needed it in a hurry after my other car died. I bought it used and it was the only thing in that short of a shopping span that met the criteria price and room.

[vikegirl]

264. Huh. Singleton.

No sense of pride.:-(

But..I understand.....

[vikegirl]

271. Yikes!

now I understand. Please, take my understanding.... :-)

[Mr_Spock]

87. I like steak too - mmmmmmm.

The other stuff I quit because.

1) smoking was killing me and taking my energy away. Now people blow smoke in my face while I eat at the local bar - I'm sure you wouldn't do that but some people try to ruin it for everyone.

2) I feel guilty while driving & hate putting expensive gas into a gas guzzler, plus, I predicted the gas price hikes several years ago when I shopped for a decent gas milage vehicle

3) I gave up China-mart going on two years ago.

I have no issue with a good liberal doing any of the above, I wish I could - but I'm too angry too. I threw away my "Braveheart" DVD today (was a gift) because the name "Mel Gibson" makes me angry!

Good luck - you may get flamed a bit :rofl:

[seg4527]

92. i smoke 1/2 to 1 pack a day

but other than that i take a bus, avoid walmart but occasionally shop target. i really love meat, but going to college i typically eat pasta, because it's cheap and filling. over the summer when i'm at home with my parents eat meat like every single day though.

oh, and i roll my own cigarettes. i buy this tobacco from holland that lasts me 6 days and costs 3 dollars. it's a pain in the ass, but it's 3 bucks a week instead of 30.

[flvegan]

93. Define "liberal"

"All of those things are okay" huh?

Hey, I'm glad to vote alongside you, agree with you on many, many things, but...well...nevermind. I'll wait until I get YOUR definition of liberal.

[Kali]

137. I know you didn't ask me, but I would put it this way:

Define any human trait. You can't. Everything is on a continuum. So while some may be way at one end, most here at DU are gonna clump somewhere in the middle left.

The point, I think, of the OP is some that are at the extremes think that everybody else should be too - both ends, by the way - a similarity in "extremism" I pointed out in the deleted subthread.

Idealism is great, fanatacism - eh, often dangerous for all concerned.

Diversity is better. Almost universally.

[flvegan]

140. Considering your post

at #29, thanks, but I'll wait for the OP's response. A response to this is little more than a waste of time.

[Kali]

190. we are posting on an internet forum

wasting time is pretty much what it is all about, but avoiding other posters is certainly your right. Later :hi:

[flvegan]

203. Good one!

[Lorien]

164. I'm starting to wonder if being "liberal" on just one or two issues

makes everyone "as liberal as anyone else" these days. Personally I don't buy it; if you don't give a crap about the environment, worker's rights, peak oil or war (hey, we're killing people to fill up those SUVs), then that doesn't make a person "as liberal as anyone else". It only makes them as liberal as those who agree with them.

[Kali]

194. So is your computer solar powered?

Do you live in a structure that is completly "green". Is everything in your life so green, so pure, all American-Union-made that you really can criticize the (percieved) imperfections of someone else's liberalism? Wow. I didn't know it had all been so clearly worked out. Can you post the rules for the rest of us?

[flvegan]

204. Strawman posts come so easily around here.

It's so rarely about the content, isn't it?

Someone sounds angry.

[Kali]

211. Content? Strawman?

hmmm you are asking someone two posts down for their definition of the rules, that is exactly what my sarcastic question was as well.

So who qualifies for the liberal club? Vegan pedestrian nudists?

Angry? About what?

[flvegan]

219. Stab elsewhere.

You'll continue to miss here.

[yewberry]

210. Oh, yeah, "continuum and diversity,"

that's YOUR motto!

:rofl:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

196. May I Inquire As To What You Do For A Living?

I was just curious. Wasn't sure if you worked or not, but if you did I was curious if it was a full time job or not.

[flvegan]

200. May I inquire AGAIN about

the definition (of yours) of "liberal" hmm?

If you'd rather avoid, please, just say so.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

208. Sure.

Firstly, let me caveat by saying I do not believe there to be a wholesale definition of what makes one liberal. But some very important things I feel are general core values are the ability to be open minded and constantly seeking wisdom and knowledge; tolerance of all different walks of life and opinions; non condoning of racism, prejudice and sexism; desire for all to have a deserving quality of life and the best healthcare the talents of the human race have acquired; generosity, deep and sincere empathy and kindness; the willingness to help others in need at any time for any reason; not condoning violence or war unless it is absolutely the only way to protect ourselves; being honest, candid and acting with integrity wherever and however possible; respect for all as equals; having the ability to forgive immediately to all those sincerely asking for it; the desire to genuinely want to help the needy, poor and less fortunate; the belief that all those who work are entitled to fair conditions and fair pay; and just the general all around spirit of decency towards humanity and the desire for the world to be as peaceful as it can be.

Now granted, this is a bit idealistic and is my opinion only. But I think liberalism at it's core is just simply rooted in open-mindedness, fairness and caring towards all.

[flvegan]

218. Very good definition.

You still stand behind that original post?

I also agree that there is not a wholesale definition of what makes one liberal, but I do think that you've really pretty much nailed it here.

[KoKo]

94. Hey....Hey.....Hey!!!!!

Do you sport a "codpiece" and a NASCAR Sticker, too?

Am I supposed to fall over in a swoon over your "credentials?" :shrug:

[rucky]

95. Why do you hate America? n/t

[Raine]

97. I don't smoke, eat meat or shop at walmart BUT

horror of horrors I have a Range Rover.:hide: but that doesn't mean I'm less a liberal. I also have a Chevy that I use most of the time but the RR weighs heavily on my conscience. :spank: THANKS for posting I do feel less alone. :pals:

[Catchawave]

98. I'm a DU-liberal, smoker, drive a mid-SUV

but shop and eat at local stores and diners. I don't eat meat, because, I wouldn't eat my dog, euwwww. I do dairy, but only organically and locally grown.

Oh yeah, I'll be marching in NYC April 29th :hi:

[Syncronaut Seven]

99. I'm a political activist who takes this shit seriously.

Shame on you.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

102. what is your carbon footprint? QUIZ

http://www.bp.com/extendedsectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9008204&contentId=7015209

[freestyle]

127. Thanks. That is quite enlightening.

I scored a 7. They claim the typical American is 18.58. A typical European, I would imagine, is right around the 7. We probably live in a smaller house and have a more fuel efficient car than most people, but we feel in no way deprived. Choices do matter.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

129. OPMINDCRIME took the test a few days ago, ask him what his score was...

go ahead.... ask him.

:popcorn:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

133. "I'M TELLIN!!! MOMMMYYYYY MOMMMMYY GUESS WHAT OMC DID!!!"

:rofl:

Seriously, my god.


And for the record, the footprint was largely beyond my control. We have a house with oil heat and old appliances that came with it, cause it was what we could afford. We have the old crappy windows that came with the house. It was all we could afford. Those things themselves gave us the big footprint. So if you want to hang me, my wife, and my two beautiful children for only being able to afford a non energy-star certified home, go right afucking head. But we don't really care about your self righteous provocation anyway. :P

[Viva_La_Revolution]

150. I don't get to feel self rightous very often...

so... Thanks! :P

I love you anyway, you know that, right? :*


:hi:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

171. LOL Love Ya Back

:toast:

:hi:

[progressivebydesign]

225. That was really a cool quiz! I got 15 tonnes of CO2

Less than the US average.. but man.. that's a lot of CO2!

[mcscajun]

330. Below average. No Surprise there.

Your carbon footprint is approximately 12 tonnes CO2 per year. This is lower than the United States average of 18.58.

I have a tiny house without central air, I have energy-efficient appliances, and with few exceptions, If I'm not in a room, it's not pulling any electricity.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

105. I'm with you all the way, but I sold my Jimmy a few years ago

for a smaller Olds Alero and am really miffed because the Jimmy got better gas!

[fujiyama]

106. What kind of SUV?

I personally don't have something against all SUV owners (there are some that are somewhat fuel efficient like the Ford Escape Hybrid), only the really obnoxious kind with Hummers, Excursions, and other monstrosities. Plus, it seems like so many of the SUV drivers are bad drivers.

But regardless, as gas prices go up, you'll be the one spending more. It's also worth knowing that the money you spend on cigerattes (atleast those made by big tobacco) and gas goes to GOP pockets.

But to each their own. It's a free society and how you spend your money is your choice.

And anyways, we all have our guilty pleasures. Some of us smoke. Some of us drink alcohol(after all Bacardi and Anesishuer Bush are GOP contributors - personally I don't like either) or even pop (Coke and Pepsi both contribute to the GOP)....Some of us have no choice but to shop at Wal Mart (fortunately I have other alternatives closer)...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

117. 2002 Chevy Blazer.

[NorthernSpy]

114. well, I don't smoke, can't afford an SUV, and have yet to set foot in...

... a WalMart.

But I love steak (well seared, pink and juicy inside please!), don't consider myself a feminist, am pro-rkba, and I want the border sealed.

I am a person of the Left, but I don't necessarily follow all the "enlightened" political fads.

[Geek_Girl]

115. Thanks for sharing

I have a compact SUV that my husband drives but I bought. I use to smoke and I miss it.
I work for a power utility company that pumps tons of pollution into the air via fossil plants, but I like the money I make so I won't be quitting anytime soon. I'm a very wasteful person by nature and a spend thrift. And I love steak!

Yet I sometimes think I'm the most liberal person I know.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

123. Proud to give this the #5 rec!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

125. Holy Shit Awesome Picture!

I love it! I admire the HELL out of people that can do graphics like that. I wouldn't even know where to start.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

134. Thanks! It's words like that that keep me Photoshopping!

[Vektor]

126. Ditto on the SUV...

The other stuff, no, but you're OK by me.

You are named after my favorite Queensryche album, after all!

:hi:

[walldude]

154. Have you heard Mindcrime II?

The Ryche is a little upset about Bush and the cabal... Get it if you don't have it.

[Redstone]

128. Hey, you're OK with me. It's not for me to tell other people what to

do, or not do. Or to be, or not be.

Whatever you do, whatever you are, is fine with me.

And I mean it. (As long, that is, you don't go around putting up illegal signs on the telephone poles or roadsides in my town. I'll kick your ass if you do that.)

Redstone

[Proud2BAmurkin]

131. ZOT!

:rofl:

[Gormy Cuss]

135. Well, I have a problem with that. And I mean that in the New Jersey way.

I don't say that because you don't have a limited lockstep view of what the sainted acceptable liberal behaviors are, but because you post that you do something contrary to what others are discussing in a typical New Jersey fashion, which is to say "Got a problem with that?" That works in the Northeast where tolerance means that you can tell me you disagree but that doesn't mean you are welcome to tell me I'm going to the liberal equivalent of Hell in a Hand basket. I miss that flat out confrontational mode because out here on the West Coast the interaction is different. Shaming and scolding someone on principal is much more the norm. Direct confrontation is aberrant behavior. Believe me, I've stuck my foot in dog poo frequently by using my East Coast confrontational style. I'm not telling you what to do. I'm telling you that I've learned out here. Sometimes it's best to walk away but in my extensive experience with you Garden State people, I would say it's not a natural reaction for you.

And for all the talk of tolerance and around here, tolerance to me doesn't mean I need to keep my mouth shut. It means I find the balance between letting you do what you want and mitigating the way your actions harm the greater society. Sometimes it's hard to judge that and DU is a good place to thrash out our different perspectives.

As for being judgmental, we all are. It's just a matter of degree. The only time we notice is when the other person is judging the situation in a way we find intolerable.

'Jeet yet?

[pnorman]

138. Walmart?

That's the only of that lot that's unambiguously a NO!-NO! for me. (Unless there is NO practical alternative). Walmart is so WRONG, and on so many levels. But am I a "liberal"? Probably not; left-libertarian would be a better term.

pnorman

[NJCher]

147. this discussion is a ruse

I'm with this poster:

Honestly, your beliefs don't matter unless you act on them. I'd say that your vote matters, but I'm pretty sure that our votes don't matter anymore. Do what you think is right, act on what you feel to be the most important issues for progressives, but there's no reason to come here and demand that everyone approve of your behavior. If you think it's right, what do you care what anyone on DU thinks? There are many things I do that other people on DU disagree with and I could hardly give a shit.

For whatever reason, you're in love with the idea that you're a liberal. But I don't think you are, really. Real liberals have no desire to spread pollution around the planet and yes, I'm well aware that certain Democratic candidates paraded around in big black SUVs.

I've noticed your posts and they're usually about YOU. You are being disingenuous when you state that you came back from dinner at Red Lobster, another big box cookie cutter business that supports repukes. Sooooo surprised that such an inflammatory eff-you post generates so many responses.

The rest of you who applaud this crap are being played "big time," as The Big Dick would say.

This is not a sincere discussion because people who believe in our causes have NO DESIRE to help the enemy OR be a pig out on the road with some big hog of a vehicle that uses twices as much gas as necessary.




Cher

[OldLeftieLawyer]

161. Wow

I sure hope you feel a whole lot better after that.

Wow.

[fudge stripe cookays]

354. I don't know about her, but...

I do.

I find the OP's posts are indeed that. All about HIM. He grandstands how obnoxious he can be. Frequently.

So yeah...do what you want.

I don't care how liberal you THINK you are... if you're participating in multiple behaviors that we condemn Conservatives for, don't expect us to pat you on the back for it.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

366. Wow

I hope you feel even better after that mean-spirited projection of one person's thoughts and expressions.

It always amazes me what tightassed Puritans spout up here on DU where I really expect better.

Good luck in your narrow little world. I sure do hope your "condemning" enriches your life. I just find you intolerant, which is NOT a liberal value.

So much for the Big Tent.

[fudge stripe cookays]

369. You know what?

I used to be a LOT more tolerant of Wal-Mart shopping, SUV-driving people who buried their heads in the sand and couldn't see the irony of spouting liberal messages and then doing the exact opposite.

I have no patience anymore. When I see the pictures from Katrina (partially caused by Global Warming, which we read more about every day) and think of all the towns that have had their small businesses decimated by the Wal-Mart behemoth, I'm not very nice anymore.

When I think of the employees at Wal-Mart who have no other choices for their families, no health insurance, and very little other opportunity, because there are no other stores to work at, yeah. I get mad. Wal-Mart moved in and people thought it sounded GREAT for one stop shopping. Yeah. I get mad.

You can't tell me that in New Jersey there aren't smaller, more local, more progessive places to shop than Wal-Mart. For our friends in smaller towns with no other places to shop, sure. I fully understand. You gotta do what you gotta do.

Oh-- it's none of our business why he drives an SUV. No, it's not. But the 2 kids he's driving around in it now most likely won't be breathing anything resembling oxygen by the time he's gone. So justification or no justification, there it is.

I don't care how self-righteous you think I am. You played attack dog all over this thread. I don't that's a very liberal value either. So we're even.

I do feel much better. Thanks.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

373. Nice

Your gift for rationalization and namecalling go very nicely together.

But, what you're missing in all your enlightened glory is that you don't seem capable of comprehending that not everyone has the resources or the access that you do.

I commend you in your sanctified purity of liberal thought, and I look forward to the day when you'll be held up and worshipped by others than yourself as the paragon of what it means to be a liberal.

You don't feel better - you're just trying to condemn and vent. That's unfortunate.

In the meantime, you can't differentiate passion and intensity from "attack dog," and, well, we know what that makes you.

[fudge stripe cookays]

378. Hmmmm...

I like the avatar.

Self-portrait?

[Zen]

387. LMFAO!!!

Oh, no!

:rofl:

[Beaverhausen]

437. touche!

I love your posts here FSC!!!

[Kali]

367. I don't condemn pukes for eating meat or what they drive

well not much anyway. I condemn them for backing the corrupt asshole occupying the Whitehouse and others like him, and for their lack of compassion and tolerance for folks poor or otherwise different from them. Do I still get to be in the club?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

368. I Would Like You To Provide Some Context To That Please.

If you're going to smear somebody please be prepared to back it up. I'm right here. If you have something to say about the ways in which I post feel free to confront me directly. My posts are in no way ALL about me, but everyone who posts would have a hint of their own opinion and self within them. That's just called common friggin sense to expect. But this grandstanding and all about me crap, well I'd ask you to fairly present some substance to show why that is the case. I simply am blunt and call it as I see it. If you have problems with people speaking up and not constantly toeing the line, and consider them to be grandstanding if they do, well more power to ya. I will await your backing up the ideal that my posts are ALWAYS all about me. (and I'm not talking about one or two here and there, I'm talking about showing that the overwhelming majority of them are.)

[fudge stripe cookays]

372. I am not going to waste my time

sitting here and looking up your old posts. My time is a little more important to me than you seem to think.

I know my personal experience with viewing your posts. If someone wants to put you into context, all they have to do is click that little Search button up top. You seem to have a love of posting flamebait. That's what "All about me" means. You may call it "being blunt" or "calling it as you see it."

Some people have another word for it that starts with an A and ends with an E.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

374. Self Delete. On Second Thought, It's So Not Worth It.

You and the immature gang of abusive bullies in that other childish thread deserve no more of my valuable attention.

[Zen]

392. What is your relationship with the O/P?

Please elaborate...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

394. Never Conversed With Her Much. So I'd Say Just A Fellow Fair Liberal,

who detests closed minded abuse and attack as much as I do.

[Zen]

396. Interesting.

I find it somewhat disturbing that one OR the other will take people on and one responds for the other.

Something strange about that...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

398. No Idea What You're Talking About, But As Long As You Do, More

power to ya I guess. Whatever floats your boat dude.

[enigmatic]

401. I know OLL

These two aren't the same person. OLL is a friend.

[Zen]

403. Yeah, I realize that

...but I can't help but wonder why the tag-team on this thread?

Your friend or OMC?

[enigmatic]

404. Because she's as pissed off as the OP

I am too, frankly. This kind of holier-than-thou BS is the absolute worst of DU in my opinion, and a big reason I don't post much anymore.

[Zen]

405. Who's holier than thou? The OP or the people who object to the post?

It's a matter of whose OX is being gored, isn't it?

[enigmatic]

406. The people who think

that their version of utopian liberalism is the only way, and anyone who doesn't measure up is as good as a Freeper or a Fundie.

It's funny; on other boards I posted on I've been essentially been called the "Token Commie" because I was so far to the left of everyone else. But after being on here for 2 years, I realize that fighting for equal rights for everybody no matter of your gender, race, or religion (or lack of), for fighting, giving money to (and voting)for Democratic candidates even as an Expat, and trying to live my life as as ideally and compassionately in the ideals of what it means to be a Liberal, I'll still be considered not a good Liberal because I eat meat and have had friends that have in fact smoked, shopped at Wal-Mart out of need, and eat meat like I do.

I've accepted it; I really don't give a shit for the most part. But am I disappointed by it? I can't help but be, because I know I'm a flawed human being just like the holier than thou crowd.

[Zen]

411. Do you think this thread will be helpful for liberals?

Is this the way to change people's minds - by challenging them?

I don't like the elitism of some liberals either (here or anywhere), it makes me gnash my teeth at times. At the same time, I realize that they have just as much a right to their beliefs (prejudiced as they may be) as I do to my (likely flawed) beliefs.

How can liberals take on a cause that they hold dear without possibly offending someone here?

Many causes on both the left and the right clash with the beliefs of others in their political group.

It would be too PC in my book not to occasionally insult SUV drivers - how can this be a politically viable group if we don't occasionally hurt someones feelings?

Isn't that what will necessarily happen when you mix people of so many different backgrounds on one centralized site like this?

I read posts of people insulting things I like to do all the time - I just chuckle, oh, that's so-and-so, they hate this thing that I do. I don't personalize it - that would be impractical IMHO.

People need to have thick skins here - this is a political site after all.

[enigmatic]

416. I agree they need thick skins

And in the grand scheme of things here, this thread probably won't help much, if at all. But The multitudes of threads by the ones I've talked about berating others do little but inflame as well, and that's the maddening part to me.

We have to build coalitions within all that encompasses "The Left" if we expect to have any kind of voice (and regain power) in 2006 and 2008; at least on this board, I really don't think we can if you base GD or GDP as a barometer.

I don't know what the answer is: I desperately wish I knew. But the one I know is that demonizing those who don't march in lockstep and trying to purge them out of the box you, I, or anyone else calls a "Liberal" is at best, a mistake and at worst, no better then the Fundies on the Right.

I see your username; for a long time I used to be one of those holier than thou, my way or the highway Liberals. Then about 15 years ago I discovered Buddhism (Mahayana), and it changed my life 1000 times for the better because of it. And the first thing it taught me was the tolerance and compassion for everybody, regardless of whether they lived the life I lead or not. It taught me that I was a flawed human being that was a work in progress; it taught me that I didn't have all the answers.

I'd accept those and fight w/ those who didn't life my life because I knew if they believed in the bigger picture of what it meant to be a Liberal, that they were my ally.

I just don't see that from those that I've mentioned on this thread. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I am.

[Zen]

419. I will admit, I've been clicking the "hide thread" "X" an awful lot lately

There comes a point where the worst instincts in people rise to the surface (the rape-fest for instance) and I have no use for it at all. I suppose knowing this would be a contentious thread, I could have X-ed it out also, but I figured I'd give it a shot. The only good thing I see happening here lately is what usually happens when things are going pretty well for us - we get bored and start attacking each other. It's true!

I wish I was like my username, but alas it's just an unexplored interest of mine, kindled more by my father than anything. I think we have to get used to the fact that some of us are more driven by certain topics that others - we all should focus on what we do best. In the mean time, I think there will always be people provoking others about topics they could care less about. It's human nature - the better person knows when to ignore a provocation (sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me). I don't know, but getting on peoples cases about a perceived slight/trend on DU isn't likely going to solve anything. I certainly hold very few grudges here - only those who chose not to forgive will find me somewhat unforgiving in return. Not very Zen like, but it's me.

[enigmatic]

421. I understand

But you see, we're talking instead of flaming, and that alone is a plus.

Peace, my friend:)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

172. "you're in love with the idea that you're a liberal"

Damn fucking right I am. Damn fucking proud to be a liberal too, thank you very much.


I feel for you. I really do. Your post contains so much unwarranted bitterness that I can't help feeling sorry for you. You ever need someone to talk to, I'm here for ya.

[Maddy McCall]

231. Yep.

:thumbsup:

[cassiepriam]

149. My name is Cassie, and I am addicted to Wal Mart.

I can't help it, my car just turns into the walmart at least once a week.

(Please don't make me go into a 12 step program) :(

[RB TexLa]

151. Steak is on the grill as I type, and went to get it in a 4X4 SUV

[RB TexLa]

165. Forgot to add, I'm also watching NASCAR

[mdmc]

153. i am holier than thou

peace!

[Ksec]

155. Yea, the guilt trips.

I know them well.

I have veiws that could be considered centrist or moderate . I dont know what Liberal means anymore , depends on who is defining it, I suppose. Maybe Im an old school Liberal.

[bloom]

156. Do you follow any particular religion or philosophy?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

239. Yes No and Kinda

Born and Raised Jewish, learned and leaned towards christianity, but in the end have no other religion but my own. I feel the higher power in my own way and with my own heart, and pray in a very sentimental and private manner. I am incredibly spiritual and am gifted with philosophy. In the end of it all, nothin I'd rather be doin than layin on a lawn in an area with absolutely NO light pollution, and looking up at the darkest sky with the most stars I've ever seen for hours on end.

[ms liberty]

157. I'm not sure what started this thread, did I miss something?

I hate coming back to DU after a few hours away, and finding someone defending themselves from something I didn't see in the first place!!!LOL

And furthermore...

I'm a smoker, I shop at Wal Mart, and I love steak too. I also own a pick up truck - a big, gas guzzling truck with 4 wheel drive.

Of course, I'm down to less than 1/2 pack a day and I don't smoke in the house, I shop at Wal Mart because sometimes I have to - in a rural area, you don't always have a choice anymore; and the pick up sits in the garage except when we need to take off the trash, get mulch or whatever, or it snows. Our other vehicles get more than 30 miles a gallon. I eat beef because I like it - and not all beef comes from calves. I like cows, they're a lot of fun to watch in the pasture across the road. They're also dumb as rocks. They also taste good grilled with a little oregano, garlic, onion salt and pepper. AND we recycle EVERYTHING in our house. The trash nazi at the convenience center hates us, we usually have one bag of actual trash and a ton of recycleables.

What I hate are sanctimonious, self righteous assholes, so I try not to be one of those. 99% of the time I succeed.

More power to ya, OMC; anytime you're in NC you're welcome to come by. We can sit on my porch, smoke a cig (and something else too), drink a cold beer, and grill some steaks.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

159. All kinds of us liberals,

and that's what I love about DU.

Can I back my big red SUV up to your house if I bring the beer?

[ms liberty]

180. Yes, and you will be very much welcomed!

Even if you forgot the beer! You're welcome at my home anytime!

edited: spellcheck is my friend...

[karlrschneider]

162. I'm with you except for the SUV...but then I have an airplane that

gets 8 MPG. I get a lot of shit for that. :D

[Rude Horner]

168. I'm with ya, OperationMindCrime

I love a good steak. :)

I live in a town where Walmart is my only choice. Now, I don't go there very often, because I work in a bigger city than I live in, so when I'm in the city I go to other stores, but on the weekend my only choice is Walmart. I hate it, but when ya gotta...

And you wouldn't believe the guilt trip I felt a month ago when shortly after I bought my 2006 Chevy Tahoe, DU went ga-ga over the whole "Make your own Tahoe commercial" thing. Thing is, the 2006 Tahoe is E85 compatible, so it's not as bad as most think. I work right near an E85 station, and I use LESS gas in my Tahoe than I did in my car. Plus, E85 is cheaper.

And I'm a damn good liberal and proud of it!!!

Oh, by the way...I love hockey too. :) I see by your avatar that you're a Rangers fan. I'm a Flyers fan. Good luck in the playoffs!!

[KT2000]

169. What a good post

I don't know why people have to be judgemental to feel good. Fundamentalist lefties are as boring and irritating as fundamentalist righties - the ego in control of a narrow vision.

I wish people were as concerned about the forced poisoning of the entire population by polluting businesses, lawn chemicals that are damaging the brains of our children, formaldehyde that is now in everything from clothing, building materials, personal care products, and spraying schools, playgrounds and parks with neurotoxic chemicals, spraying forests with 2,4-D, putting chemicals in junk food that trigger appetites and putting additives in foods that are harming children.

Sometimes things are used as a smokescreen to keep the folks fighting amongst themselves. Meanwhile the big cats get to play at will.

[lyonn]

178. Yours too

When you mention toxic chemicals it struck a note. I have a very old English Bulldog and about 3 years ago he was getting sores scattered around his body. The cause wasn't tic & flea treatment, food, etc., I figured out it was the weed and feed that had been put around our house. We had used it for 2 years in the spring and it was during that time that the dog started having skin problems. Now he is fine, well, a bulldog is never fine, they have serious health issues. But, he is like a canary in a mine, he gets sick first. Imagine what this stuff does to people that are bare footed, kids playing in it. It doesn't soak in and disappear quickly.

[KT2000]

207. Glad to hear the dog is OK

and that was good that you figured it out. Most people don't. Weed & Feed = 2,4-D.

The other thing is that the dog and people track this stuff in the house. If you have carpets - each tuft provides 360 degress of surface area for the chemicals to cover. (I call carpets shoe cleaners, my own included.)
The lawn chemicals require sunlight and rain to break down. Inside the house, on the carpet fibers, they just persist and become another route of exposure. This includes skin contact and in the air.

Wish we could all have weeds in the yard!

:hi:

[AllieB]

173. I love a good steak, Wally World sucks

why would you shop there if you have other options? Seriously, we have many better options up here in New England, but it may be a regional thing.

Smoking? If you want to kill yourself, it's OK with me. It's your choice. Say hi to my grandpa in the afterlife. He'll probably still be carrying around his oxygen machine and talking with his voicebox.

[progressoid]

174. Meat eater and erstwhile smoker here.

Got rid of the big van and switched to a Toyota Matrix. Figure I saved over $900 in gas last year. :) Hate Wallymart but have to go there a couple times a year.

[Homer Wells]

175. No Kidding??

Me too, except for the smoking part. Quit 19 years ago, but have no problem with people smoking. It is your life, and we all have our "pills and potions to make it through this passion play", as Joni so elegantly said it.
I'm damn proud to be a Liberal, and abhor all that is being done in our name by these Criminals!
:hippie:
PEACE

[MrSlayer]

176. I smoke and eat meat.

But I simply refuse to shop at Wall-Mart and I don't own a car.

[leesa]

177. Thank you for your self righteousness.

[Name removed]

179. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

181. And Here, My Fellow DU Brothers & Sisters, I Give You The Inspiration For

this thread.

Thank you, U4ikLefty, for posting so eloquently and with perfection the exact tone, context and spirit that warranted this thread being started. Your post above was more helpful to this thread than you realize.

:hi:

[jayfish]

185. You Won't Respond To Any Replies Huh?

How nice for you. Thanks for sharing your thoughtful opinions.

Jay


ON EDIT: I'm not responding to any replies to this post.

[pitohui]

186. here's a shout out

don't smoke but a little steak and walmart never hurt anyone, actually our wally world don't have decent steak but ironically it being louisiana i can get a good bottle of maker's mark there and then have some extra $$$ for a decent steak at the more upscale store

a little sin is good for the soul frankly

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

187. I'd Rather Laugh With The Sinners Than Cry With The Saints...

...The sinners are much more fun. :)

That was always one of my favorite Billy Joel lyrics...

[lectrobyte]

188. Queensryche rocks. I haven't noticed an overdose of self-righteousness

here, fwiw. Later!

[BlooInBloo]

189. mmmmmm... steak.....

Best I ever made was 1.75in thick tenderloins, from Pike Place Market... I made a filling out of dungeoness crab, garlic, parmesan cheese, cayenne pepper, and butter - sauteed it all together. then I seared the outside of the steaks in a frying pan... then i slit the steaks longways, and stuffed em with the crab mixturem and finished the steaks off under the broiler....

I <3 steak.

And then I had a cigarette.

Anyone who fucks with you on either of those two counts can go straight to hell.

lol

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

191. LMAO!

"Anyone who fucks with you on either of those two counts can go straight to hell." LOL

Hear hear friend, hear hear!!!

:toast:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

351. Two words

Omaha Steaks.

That's the only beef we eat.

Oh, man, it is SO good. And there's a store not far from us, so we get circulars with sale deals, and there are bonus points for every $30 you spend, and I am SO spoiled by their Iowa corn-fed beef, I won't eat any other.

I used to smoke three packs a day. I started smoking when I was 9 years old (Italian kids do that). I smoked for about thirty years. One day I ran out of cigarettes and was too busy even to send anyone to get me more. So, I never smoked again. It's been more than twenty years, and I've never missed it - not one bit. I don't care if anyone smokes - I like the smell.

Smoking quit me, though. I never really did anything about it. Maybe that's how it has to work.

All these Puritans who don't like beef and smoking and SUVs. Ah, fuck 'em. We're liberals, and we can all be different. If you don't agree, you are not a liberal.

You're a nag.

[Swede]

192. How many soldiers to the gallon does it get?

nt

[omega minimo]

202. The nicotine/formaldehyde & beef hormones/antibiotics make it hard

:crazy: to connect those dots...................

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

235. Nah, It Wasn't Those Things. It Was The Sheer Stupidity Of The Question.

but then, what would a thread be if it didn't have a misguided meggy slam in it just for fun. :loveya:

[omega minimo]

238. Get Thee Behind Me

:evilfrown:

[Name removed]

242. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[omega minimo]

250. There's no point

since everything you post is a total reversal of the truth, your personal attacks apply more to you than those you inflict them on.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

252. Actually I Thrive On Posting Blunt Accurate Truth And Your Assessment

couldn't be further off. In fact whenever I post something truthful and logical there you are jumpin in with some provocative attack that attempts to demean my character rather than actually civilly and intellectually discussing the context of the post itself. Time and time again I read your replies only to see personal attacks and twisted rhetoric in place of warranted productive discussion. So I'm not so sure you can put this on me. I will be the first to defend against unwarranted attacks and will hold my ground firm in doing so as I will not allow an abuser to get the better of me, ever. But you will also notice though I'm the first to defend, I'm very rarely the first to actually initiate the provocation. There are enough of those types here already. So no, it wouldn't be a waste of time. If you actually responded with intent to discuss rather than intent to smear we might actually get somewhere. Give it a try, we'll see what happens. :hi:

[omega minimo]

317. You're Free To Lie About Yourself

but DON'T lie about others.

Those who refuse to play your games won't discuss anything with you.

Here's what you do:

"In fact whenever I post something truthful and logical there you are jumpin in with some provocative attack that attempts to demean my character rather than actually civilly and intellectually discussing the context of the post itself."

"Time and time again I read your replies only to see personal attacks and twisted rhetoric in place of warranted productive discussion."

" If you actually responded with intent to discuss rather than intent to smear we might actually get somewhere."

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

322. I Do Not Ever Lie, Dear Omega. And Feel Free To Post Every Quote Of Mine

you can find. I do not play games. I call it as I see it and am appreciated by many for doing so. And yes, you said "here's what you do", and then provided a bunch of quotes that only show that I do in fact call it as I see it, so I'm not sure why you think posting them bolsters your argument. But lets provide some clarity and context: All of those quotes you provided were in response to these:

"The nicotine/formaldehyde & beef hormones/antibiotics make it hard
to connect those dots..................." (that he's killing soldiers by owning an SUV)

Hmmm. Sounds like the only intent there was to say that because I smoke and eat meat I've become dumbed down and now have lost the ability to rationalize. Not only is that premise false on its face, but I would definitely think I'm not reaching by classifying it as provocative, and am pretty sure most DU'ers would agree that it in fact is.

"Get Thee Behind Me"

Gee, now you are calling me Satan, which you've done repeatedly. Not sure it is quite a stretch for me to consider that to be a personal attack and not something that would be conducive to productive discussion. Maybe I'm reading into it wrong? Nah, probably not.

"everything you post is a total reversal of the truth"

Oh really? It's funny. I would've sworn it was my blunt honesty I was known for. Maybe you could provide some evidence of me reversing the truth? Cause I've only ever see me declare it, not reverse it. But regardless, I would think once again that statement is inherently provocative and attacking.

So please don't call me a liar Omega, not without being able to back it up. You posted a bunch of quotes and yet I fail to see how I lied in any of them, and just now even provided further why I believe in their accuracy.

[marions ghost]

193. you could write a song with this --- humorous

"I'm a chain smokin, SUV drivin, WalMart shoppin, steak eatin Liberal and I'm gonna VOTE you Greedy Old Pukes out..."

You know--kind of a country western pop vein--like "I am Woman Hear Me Roar" or "Thank God I'm a Country Boy" --ie. one of those Loud and Proud "Gotta Be Me" classics. Get some popular artist to record it.

I am dead serious. It might be one way to fight the marginalization and stereotyping of "Liberal" (as defined by BooshCo). It would also make a sly reference to the divisiveness (and corresponding defensiveness) abounding in this country. In taking this country back, it wouldn't hurt to play confuse a cat and blow those stereotypes that have been used against us as a group.

I'm still gonna not smoke, not drive a gas-guzzler, not support MalWart, not buy big old expensive steaks. But I'm SURE you wouldn't hold that against me, and you and I would agree on other important issues.:)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

195. Ok, Ya Actually Made Me Laugh With That...

Is it wrong that I actually could hear the music in my head? LOL

I'm sure we could agree on many issues, and disagree on some as well. I think diversity is a mandatory quality of liberals. In fact, it is probably the only one quality that is truly required. :)

[marions ghost]

199. hear the music

write the song
get somebody to record it
get it out well before November

piece o'cake
it's all there

[Zorra]

198. Paraphrased, "I support major republican campaign donors".

That is all.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

205. Ok. I Have Some Questions For You If Ya Don't Mind.

Who do you get the oil or gas from to heat your house?

Who do you buy gas from to run your vehicle?

Who makes your vehicle?

Who is the manufacturer of every furnishing in your home?

Who'd you buy your home from?

What are all of the brands of food and grocery items you have in your home?

Which brand of tires are on your car?

What kind of TV, Stereo, DVD Player, Computer, Phone, Dishwasher, Washer, Dryer, Refrigerator and Water Heater do you have?

Who supplies your internet service?

Who is your electric company?

Where do you go out to dinner?

Do you work for a living?

What Car and Homeowners insurance do you have?

Who are all the different manufacturers of your clothing?

Who owns your mortgage?

Which bank do you keep your money in?

Which companies do you have credit cards with?

Do you pay taxes?

Who is your cable provider?

I could go on and on, but this list of questions will do for now. Cause I'd bet my last bottom fucking dollar that you support a hell of a lot of republican donors too. Ergo, the self-righteous guilt trip did nothing more than make me laugh out loud at the hypocrisy and absurdity, with all due respect.

[Kali]

212. that was all I was tryin' ta say, myself

GLASS - FUCKING - HOUSES, PEOPLE!

[seabeyond]

213. ssshhhhhh. you know my credit card. i dont tell anyone

so it has to be our secret.

citi bank. i pay 60 annually that is it. and get frequent flyer. and any problem i have had they have taken care of me like no other company for anything i have ever had. they are the best. i cant help it. i have to keep them.

but remember. this is our secret

[Starbucks Anarchist]

230. How dare you bring facts to this discussion.

:hi: :thumbsup:

[guinivere]

321. There ya go. I'm tired of the "holier than thou"

attitude towards beef eating, smoking, big car driving folks.

I love me some beef, I have good leather shoes (they last and are comfortable) I have cut way back on my smoking. I have an old Delta 88 and I sometimes have to go to WalMart. I cannot afford a car payment at this time. I shop my wallet. If there is a good sale at Walmart, I'm there. It takes money to have a solar powered house, fancy hybrid cars and buying only organic. Money I personally do not have.

All good questions, Operation.

I had thought that "liberal" included a live and let live attitude. Maybe I thought wrong.

[Mr_Spock]

334. Where I have a choice...

That's where I try to make a point.

People do notice when I will not buy from them and explain it as such.

Some of us cannot do things that wear heavily on our consciences - I'm happy that you can.

You seem determined to make a point here about your life style, but as you told others in another post - your decision to drive an SUV is none of our business. You are right.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

337. Actually, You Do. (seem determined)

You and others are the ones that seemed determined to make a point about my lifestyle. But that's the problem, my lifestyle has nothing to do with the point. My lifestyle is fine and your questioning of it as if it is somehow beneath yours is inaccurate and disturbing.

My point is only that those things I had mentioned have NOTHING to do with the level of being a liberal, and has nothing to do with touting my lifestyle. So it is not me, kemosabe, that is putting that under a microscope. It is you.

[Mr_Spock]

343. I don't care one bit about your lifestyle - you missed the point

You are the one determined to provoke a discussion about prejudices here at DU.

...as they they said in The Matrix -

"welcome to the real world"

We all have prejudices - I enjoy the posts where people point out that we all have prejudices. It's all good. Honesty can be fun at times.

I drive a hyper performance car to the race track & guzzle some gas there. I have guns. I like football, baseball hockey & fishing. I like drinking, eating steak and boasting. I smoked for 17 years. I used to shop at WalMart based on the false assumption that it was cheaper to shop there. I don't like some people for terrible reasons.

I will take on folks in an individual post where they can't resist taking a shot at me or someone else - if I think they have steped over the line.

But! I really try not to initiate flame-bait threads that will bring out the base emotional responses that you knew would happen when you posted this.

I don't give a flying fuck about your lifestyle and I feel free to boast about mine in a post designed to be flame-inducing. YOU are the one who feels that I am somehow implying that your lifestyle is "beneath" mine. Nope, that wasn't it - I was pointing out an irony that you somehow missed.

To me it was ironic that you were boasting about your lifestyle, but then it was "none of our business" why you drive an SUV.

If you don't see the irony there, then I can't help but think this discussion is pointless...

[OldLeftieLawyer]

349. Oy gevalt

Where did you get that the OP was "boasting"?

The preconceptions you have dropped on the OP are mind-boggling.

He made a statement about how he lived and how none of that impinged on his liberal political stance.

From there, we get your little catechism about your cars and your guns.

As you said to the OP - and I am simply borrowing your mindless and self-indulgent rudeness here - I don't give a flying fuck what you do with your money or your life so long as it doesn't get in the way of how I love my life.

Tolerance. While you're babbling, try figuring out tolerance for others.

[Mr_Spock]

352. Wow! This post really is getting to you!!

I am not going to discuss this with you as you clearly have an emotional attachment to this post.

I'll wait for a response from the person I was talking to.

Thanks for your feedback though.

[Name removed]

353. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mr_Spock]

355. lol - woohoo!!

I love your extremely biting style and insults!

[fudge stripe cookays]

364. .

:applause:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

370. There Was Nothing Flame Inducing About This At All.

In fact, it was very thoughtfully and carefully worded to not be. As can be readily seen, for a thread with 400 replies there has been very little flaming going on, and I am proud of my fellow DU'ers for overwhelming not only supporting the premise of the thread, but in keeping it overall extremely civil. A thread with 400 replies would usually have far more flames in it, but this one has done ok. So I think that counters your point on its face. Sure, there are a few subthreads, but overall though there are some disagreeing with each other the tone has been within guidelines.

Overall the thread and its posts have been very civil, and only a few typically provocative posters have tried to initiate a flame war. Fortunately, they haven't been overly successful.

[Zen]

388. Thanks.

:yourock:

[SOS]

345. Republican campaign donors

Wal-Mart: 26% Dem - 74% Rep

General Motors: 29% Dem - 71% Rep

RJ Reynolds: 7% Dem - 93% Rep

Outback Steak: 7% Dem - 93% Rep

Nat. Cattlemen Beef Assoc: 13% Dem - 87% Rep

Exxon/Mobil: 14% Dem - 86% Rep

Do whatever you please, but why support corporations that finance our electoral losses?

Beef can be bought from local farms. Tobacco choices are plenty. I quit cigs and switched to a pipe which I fill with pure tobacco imported from a small company in England. Not one penny for Phillip Morris or Reynolds. I don't own a car or drive one so I don't know what's out there. The Japanese hybrids look good and that way GM gets nothing and Exxon gets less.
With a few small modifications you can have the lifestyle you want without supporting those who finance our political and economic destruction.

[nonconformist]

214. Thank you!!!

I love steak. I do, occasionally and begrudgingly, shop at Walmart. I live in a small town with no other options. I do avoid them as much as I can these days, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

I have a GMC Jimmy. We also have an old beater Escort. We bought the Jimmy because we live on the side of a mountain and my husband's job takes him to some pretty rugged and remote areas that require a 4x4. And, yes, because I like the way it looks and love the cargo room. To be perfectly honest, I'd love to get rid of it, but we're horribly upside down on the loan and we simply can't afford to trade it in right now.

I thought it was pretty funny when some self-righteous people on another board were giving me shit for owning a dreaded SUV. As it turned out, the two most vocal owned minivans and large sedans that got worse mileage than my Jimmy.


edited to add: I also smoke. I hope to quit soon.

[Liberal In Texas]

216. I think the OP is trying to show some of you folks here that we don't all

walk in lock-step.

I smoke. I drive a mid-sized SUV (I need it for work.) I eat red meat.

But:
We pay a premium for wind powered only electricity.
We donate to all kinds of eco groups.
We do not live in the burbs. We drive about 15 miles *round trip* every day for work.
The AC in the house does not come on unless it is very humid or above 82 degrees.
We do not shop at Wal-Mart, Sams, or Home Depot unless we can't find what we are looking for in other stores.
I will never vote for a candidate with a R after his/her name.

Yes, I'm a smoking, meat eating, SUV driving liberal.

So there.

[Seabiscuit]

221. I just want my MTV (with my steak).

[Breeze54]

228. My father smoked non filter Herbert...

...Tarringtons almost all of his life!
He finally quit because my mother was sick, he said.
Shock and amazement, but he did it! He was 87 at the time!
He died at the age of 92, from a resistant strain of Legionaires Disease.

I take great pride, joy and glee at NOT shopping at China-Mart! :)
I drive a 4 cylander with a stick and a 10 gal tank.
Hardly ever have to "get gas"...
er..ah... but I do smoke...

Well, two out of three ain't bad!

[blue cat]

241. Same here

I'm a meat-eating, cigarette smoking liberal. I'm proud of being a democrat.

[niallmac]

243. Is there a similiar post in Freeper Ville?

"I wear Birkenstocks, eat tofu, wear natural fibers
and I am still just as stupid as the rest of you freeps!

Sorry DU. I couldn't keep my satire from getting ugly.
:D

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

244. Maybe There Was, But It Would Be Deleted In 10 Seconds Flat Right?

They kinda swear by their locksteppin over there, little cute lemmings they are.

[MADem]

304. Those people are called "crunchy cons"

They actually EXIST--down to the shoes!!!!!

Some guy actually wrote a book about it; I posted a link to a discussion article in the editorials section about it several weeks back...they are in fact, birkinstock wearing, organic veggie eating right-wing conservatives!!! http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1400050642/103-9830707-1706250?v=glance&n=283155

Of course, they don't seem to see the point that if you let unbridled greed rule the day, "organic" could be defined as not having enough arsenic in it to kill the average three year old...though they do maintain a distrust of both big business and big government, according to the author.

Disclaimer: I haven't read the book, and likely won't, unless I'm trapped in an elevator for a couple of hours with a left-behind copy.

[mconvente]

246. democrats are different - that's what makes us dems

We all believe in progressive ideals, but to a different extent. I have a 1996 Jeep Cherokee Classic, but being that I'm at college I rarely use it. NEVER shop at wal-mart, but that's cause in northern NJ there's so many other alternatives. What's wrong with eating steak?? :shrug: I don't eat it much at all, but I like it.

[EC]

247. Well, of course, we're Democrats - we feel

we have the right to choose....

[Robbie Michaels]

257. Thank You, OMC!

I'm glad I'm not the only one.

I grill steak every weekend, watch NASCAR, listen to Toby Keith and still dream of my old muscle car. I re-registered as an Independent a year ago because I'm waiting for the rest of the Democrats to follow Howard Dean and Barbara Boxer's lead and grow a backbone. I'm not in lock-step with everything on the liberal agenda and I won't ever apologize for thinking for myself.

That's why I'd never make a good Republican. :evilgrin:

[MelliMel]

258. Not a smoker, but I drive a minivan and have 5 kids..who eat meat

Yep, a bad ole 'breeder'. Religious too.

[shadowknows69]

259. I wouldn't dream of judging anyone's actions

to each his own. Wal Mart is a necessary evil in my home as well. I drive what I drive because it's what my mother was able to sell to me. If it had been an SUV I'd be driving that. There is an old saying though that if you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem. I truly don't mean that in a judgemental way except that I'm turning the mirror on myself. Your post made me think. Did that make any sense? Lol, sorry 430 AM and just got off work.

[laundry_queen]

260. I guess it depends

on your definition of what a liberal is. Is it a political view, or a conscious way of living, mindful and respecting of others?
For me, it's the latter.
Yeah, I do own a minivan and shop at Walmart occasionally. However, I'm also quite mindful of when I do. I will look for the same items elsewhere first. I will postpone a trip to go get milk until I need 10 other things, so I use my van less. I also eat steak, but dh and I looked around for a small farmer close by from whom we could purchase half a cow, found one, totally organic meat. I grow (Well attempt to, lol) my own veggies in containers. I try to make a difference.
To me, the problem is when people just don't give a shit. Some drive their SUVs everywhere they can and don't think twice about it. Leave it running when they go shopping. Drive around "just 'cause". Or if they don't even bother to research any companies and are not interested in how they treat their employees or manufacturers. Or anything that is mindless consumption. IMO, it's the mindlessness that makes me equate it with Republicans. To me, Liberalism means to think, not only for oneself, but for the betterment of life for each and every person around them.
I'll never forget an argument I got into with a repuke online, who had a huge SUV for her and her 2 kids. While others were trying to make her mindful that her SUV was part of the problem, environmentally speaking (she actually had barged into our peaceful environmental discussion), she came back with "My dh works hard for his money, and we can do with it whatever the hell we want. We earned this SUV and it's our right to own it. We are entitled to it."
Well, know what, my kids are entitled to grow up with an intact earth.
Not a guilt trip. No one can make you feel guilty.
A saying I once heard was "only guilty people feel guilty".
Perhaps deep down we all know we could do better and that is the guilt that we feel when people bring up the SUV/Walmart/steak stuff. All we can do is acknowledge we can do better, TRY to do better, and forgive ourselves for our faults and forgive others for pointing them out.

[BooScout]

261. LOL.......

I'm still going to hound ya about getting out of that SUV and walking more and taking public transportation occaisionally:evilgrin: .....come vist me in Wales and I'll take you on some lovely train rides......then we'll visit pubs, smoke a few cigs and have a steak.:toast:

[DemExpat]

273. I just loved my trip to Wales 30 years ago.....

especially northwest Wales - unforgettable.

:hi:

DemEx

[DFW]

263. What a diverse bunch....great!

You'd never mistake this crowd for a group of Republicans in a hundred years.

Old Leftie Lawyer: Tom Lehrer was one of the main inspirations for
The Freedom Toast and their new albums--his is the kind of genius
that comes along maybe once in a generation if that. They said that
if they get 1/1000 of the respect Lehrer got, they'd be thrilled.

My own 2 cents: I have a heart condition, so steak is out (I break
the rules once a year). There is a Walmart near where I am stationed
here in Germany, but they have to conform to German labor laws, so
they can't get away with all the stuff they do in the States. I go
there when I need certain American-made incidentals I can't get at
German stores, but otherwise have no need for the place. Eating steak
or shopping at Walmart are personal issues--you do or you don't.

I have always hated the stink of cigarette smoke, so that was never a
problem with me. I don't condemn anyone who smokes, just as long as they
have no intention of making me smoke with them (it ain't easy being in
Europe for work!).

I have never wanted or needed an SUV, so I never had one. I drive a locally-
made (i.e. German) car because I can get it repaired here faster than a
foreign-made car. I had to pay extra for a catalytic converter (optional
in Germany until 1989) for my last car (1986), which I drove for 17 years.
My new one will probably last me through retirement (bought January 2003).

I make no apologies for any of the above, and demand none of anyone else
who does things differently.

Diff'rent strokes...........

[Peter Frank]

268. The steaks will turn you into Denny Crane...

The reason our cattle stock isn't widely tested for Mad Cow is because the more it's tested -- the more is found.

[MadHound]

278. I have no problem with any of those except one

Smoking is your own personal vice, as it is mine. Hey, if we want to kill ourselves slowly, that's our business. Same with eating meat. Shop at WalMart:shrug: not the best of coporate choices but hey, none of them are good.

Driving an SUV though is a different beast altogether. Unless you have a reason other than personal transportation, it is foolish to have an SUV. And I'm not talking the once every couple of months haul some lumber home type of reason. I'm talking farmer, rancher, construction worker etc. Real need for a hauling/towing vehicle. If you aren't such a person, then you are needlessly sucking up an ever more scarce resource, and spewing out an inordinate amount of pollution, all to take yourself back and forth for the daily grind. Sorry but public resources and public air are everybody's business, and by driving an SUV for no good reason, well, you're part of the problem, not part of the solution.

I farm, and I own a pickup. But even I, and other farmers I know around me, don't drive their trucks into work. They drive smaller cars, or in my case, a motor scooter. There is absolutely no reason to be sucking up resources that are increasingly scarce, nor to pollute an ever more dirty atmosphere.

But hey, you and I have gone over this issue before. You may be a liberal, but you still think it is your god given right to leave as big an imprint on this world as you can. How very sad. But hey, perhaps these ever increasing gas prices will convince you otherwise. It's got to hurt now filling up that Blazer at 3.00/gal. Still going to continue to drive it when gas hits 5.00/gal?

Humans are creatures of adaptation, in fact the mandate has always seemed to be "adapt or die" Well, it looks like one of those adaptation moments is occuring in our history. I'm adapting friend, what are you going to do?

[alcibiades_mystery]

281. I smoke, and I eat meat, never shop at Walmart, and will never drive SUV

Also never eat fast food, like, ever.

That said, instead of getting resentful about it, I understand that politics starts in practice. The personal is political, as the feminist movement so well demonstrated. Yes, some people need SUVs, though this is a miniscule percentage of total owners. Yes, some people must shop at WalMart, though again, the percentage of people with little real choice in the matter is small, and the fact that there is no choice should be a political consideration all its own. I am addicted to cigarettes because I was a dumb teenager who thought it was cool, and now they got the hooks in me. I'm big enough to admit that. I eat meat because it was the culture I grew up in and I like it, but I have no illusions that the current organization of the meat industry is remarkably costly, harmful to the environment, and inefficient (anyone interested in this should read Michael Pollan's work). This doesn't mean that I feel "guilty" about it; it means I recognize the reality of the situation and don't get all pouty when it is brought up. I also know that there are better ways to produce meat than the way we mostly do now, and I've started trying to move towards those methods in my purchases (slow food). I'm also aware that slow food is currently a luxury, as is shopping in places other than WalMart, as is cooking one's own meals and never stopping for fast food. Class concerns obviously intersect with all these issues, as does education and location. Point being, none of these questions are structly speaking about our personal tastes or identities, ansd as long as we portray them that way, they will always provoke the kind of stupid resentment we see on these boards on all sides. To say that eating meat contributes to environmental damage is not a judgment on YOU as a person, but an accurate statement about the way the meat industry affects the environment. It just is. One has to make one's own decisions on that, but the statement is a fact, and not a judgment of the person.

[mandyky]

283. I don't feel guilty

whether the guilt-tripping comes from the left or the right. I smoke, can't afford a car or to shop anywhere but Walmart, and love meat of all types. I _do_ feel bad about shopping at Walmart but that is an internal thing.

[suziedemocrat]

284. I actually like Wal-Mart.

I don't think they are the evil spawn everyone says. People I know like working there. I'm a vegetarian - but I don't mind if people eat steak at all. I DO tend to look down a little on smokers. BUT - THE SUV - I HATE SUVs - that is my peeve! (But maybe that's just me.)

[Daphne08]

285. I also smoke, drive a Buick LeSabre, love steak

and I'm a liberal, as well.

[Sugar Smack]

288. Hey, SUV driver! Over HERE! I just want to ask a favor-

:hi: Please don't park next to my tiny little car cause it makes it impossible for me to see when I pull out of my space. Thanks!!

:rofl: :patriot:

[seabeyond]

292. i say same thing, but no suv driver will talk to me.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=998375&mesg_id=998932

i too would liike to pull out of my space without putting passerbys lives at risk, or say, a little child.....

but i have yet to have a suv driver respond to my post. jsut seems to be the issue for us car drivers and no concern whatsoever of the suv driver. go figure

[Sugar Smack]

293. Seabeyond! I didn't even see your post! I loved it.

Thank you so much for expressing that. When I pull out of a parking space, regardless of where I park at first- I'm usually flanked by SUVs, one on either side.

I'm scared to death to pull out cause what if I pull out very slowly and someone still doesn't see me and I hit them?

You're the best, seabeyond. :applause:

[seabeyond]

294. what if I pull out very slowly and someone still doesn't see me

that is what goes thru my head. inch by inch. praying you hit no one. i guess i can park, run out look, go an inch. park, run out and look then go an inch, until my driver window finally gets past the obstruction of my view. but then, that didnt make a whole lot of sense so instead i just had to say, i will go slowly and hope and pray i dont hit someone

not a good feeling to have

"You're the best, seabeyond. ".......... back atcha sugar, lol

[Kali]

302. a couple options

is it possible to park further away where there are more open spaces?

Not sure what kind of parking lots you have to deal with, or how your driving skills are but can you back in or pull all the way through to the other side?


Not trying to be sarcastic or make excuses or impositions (I am stuck with huge vehicles, not entirely my choice but just the way it is) 'cause I do these things just for my convenience both with my big vehicles and on the occasions when I get to drive small cars.

[seabeyond]

307. sometimes when i park i just dont think about who is going to park

next to me. i havent needed to for the last oh 30 years of driving. i do park out yander often because i like to walk. and my driving skills are better than good.

it would probably help a lot if the driver of the big vehicle understood we cant see thru them. left turns, i have to wait for an suv to go thru the intersection before going because i dont know if the lite has turned yellow or red. cant see. i cant make right hand turns because i cant see the oncoming traffic. as the suv behind me gets pissed cause i dont turn as they sit high and see i am clear. or driving against a curb obstructing the view of kids crossing the street. i am clueless
in these matters. there really is nothing i can do but be extra viligent in my driving knowing i am driving blind and taking the precautions i can to keep me and others safe.

[Zen]

390. Tell me about it.

How many times am I about to pull out into traffic and an SUV blocks my vision and I have to just smack the steering wheel and wait - it's not worth risking my kids lives over an assumption that there is nobody coming.

[NaturalHigh]

291. Same here.

All of the above, but my wife's SUV is a six-cylinder. I can't say that I feel guilty about any of it.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

295. I just returned from a trip to Russia and the Baltics.

The only SUVs I saw were government or transportation vehicles. In general there were far fewer cars and people rely heavily on train and bus and tram travel. And good old walking. My Latvian aunt told me that when she visited the USA she thought to herself that we would drive to the bathroom if that was possible. But I think as gas prices rise, we will be forced to consider more and better mass transit, with plain old walking involved on either end of the transit. And then we will see some of our weight disappearing as well. Can't be all bad.

On my trip, I roomed with a friend who is a smoker. I live with a smoker and was a smoker myself. I brought candles, not for the smoke but for the stale hotel room smells. My friend asked me not to burn the candles because she had allergies and the smell bothered her. But the smell of a constant burning cigarette didn't seem to bother her allergies at all. I recognized myself when she was saying these things, because I used to be very defensive about my rights as a smoker. Now I just choose not to smoke because I have more energy and air when I don't. I was a nurse for thirty years and saw as many non smokers die from cancer as smokers and I really saw a greater connection to genetics. But if holding a cigarette was cool for a teen in the 60's, yellow teeth, bad breath, stinky hair and clothes and lip wrinkles is uncool for a lady in her 60's.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

377. Whoa

What you wrote, about the genetic connection to cancer - that's what I've always believed, although, hey, smoking's not good for us, we all know that.

You really hit me with that one, and I thank you for anything else you might - from your vast medical experience - add to that comment. It really makes sense.

Welcome home, by the way.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

422. Nothing else to add except that if you go to the back door of

a hospital, you will likely find many nurses who are on their cigarette break, and a few docs besides. I know...you'd think health care givers would be the most paranoid about lighting up, but not so. I think maybe it is because we see genetics play the largest role in most diseases, be it cancer or heart or lunacy. Look at the bushes. But like the old saying goes, just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that they're not out to get you.

Thanks for the welcome home. :)

[WCGreen]

296. Steaks suck now that they have then so juiced full of hormones...

Drive a sensible car....

Never shop at Walmart....

Don't smoke....

But I do like to look at naked women....

[slackmaster]

297. I used to drive an SUV

But lost it in a tragic seagoing ferry accident.

[lonestarnot]

298. Well have fun with that SUV when prices hit $5/gal this summer.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

313. I Mean, I Didn't Really Buy It To Have Fun With. I Kinda Use It To Just

drive to places, ya know? But I guess I do have fun driving it sometimes, but usually it's just to get me from point A to point B. But since you extended such a kind invitation, ya know what, maybe I will try and have for fun with it this summer. Thanks for the suggestion. :hi:

[glitch]

308. Sounds like you are trying to convince yourself of something. nt

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

312. Actually, It Doesn't. Maybe You Misunderstood The Context?

:shrug:

[glitch]

320. Perhaps. Your gut is trying to tell you something your addictions don't

want you to hear. At least that's how I am reading your OP. Sorry if I am not getting it as you intend.
FWIW, I am rooting for your gut, and you.

[Zhade]

414. I think you're spot-on.

I've addressed that thought here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=998375&mesg_id=1007296

My earlier response was angry, but I've thought about this since then, and I think you've nailed it.

[Endangered Specie]

309. What, no guns?

:mad: ;)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

311. Nah, Don't Own Any and Never Used One. But It Would Fall Into The

same category. :)

[noiretextatique]

333. why do you care what people think?

:nopity:

[Mr_Spock]

335. That's where I'm going here too

It's "none of our business" why the O/P drives an SUV.

Does that statement seem as ironic to you as it does to me?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

339. I'm Sorry, But Can You Direct Me To The Statement That Says I Do?

Cause I can't find it anywhere. :shrug:

See, the thread was only intended to stand up for all of those who are persecuted here daily for doing one or more of those things, and letting them know publicly that it is ok and that they are not alone. That in spite of the close-minded zealot's attacks and attempts to smear them as less liberal, that they not only aren't, but that there are many many other liberals who share those same things. Had nothing to do with caring what the zealots think, had all to do with sharing a moment of camaraderie with other open minded liberals of tolerance.

Thanks.

[Zhade]

336. Sorry, you ARE less liberal by supporting Wal-Mart.

You're shooting labor rights, what's left of them, in the foot, and you don't care.

That's hardly liberal.

Meat? Don't care. Smoking? Don't do it around me. SUV? You're a fool to pay that much in gas, but hey, feel free to continue killing our environment faster than anyone who doesn't drive one.

But don't kid yourself into thinking you're as liberal as you think you are.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

338. No, I'm Not. I Do, However, Find That Accusation To Be Less Lberal, But

to each their own...

[Zhade]

409. I posted in annoyance-mode. I should have been clearer.

In reality, you may very well hold very liberal ideas, but your DECISION to shop at Wal-Mart, or to drive an SUV if you don't need one (and very, very few people NEED one), coupled with your apparent "fuck you, I'll do what I want, regardless of how it affects the rest of the planet" is most decidely not liberal.

See, I can understand the disconnect. I work for DirecTV, which is now owned by Rupert Murdoch's NewsCorp. I feel like a hypocrite every day I go to work, because part of my job is to keep the less-than-truthful, anti-liberal FOX News on the air. If the signal drops, I have no choice but to correct the matter, despite my deep-seated antipathy to that bastion of dishonesty.

But here's the difference: I understand that doing so actually HURTS the country, by letting lies be told, and I recognize that I am part of the problem, even with the mitigating factor that my company was bought out years after I started the job (but then, it's not like GM was a bastion of liberality, either).

You, on the other hand, seem to be of the opinion that your personal choices don't affect anyone else, and on that point you're just trying to fool yourself. For example, you and I both love steak (no veggie myself), but I think we both know that the beef industry in America is horrific in terms of safety, workers' rights, animal treatment, the whole deal. Your flippant "I am SO a liberal, even while supporting unliberal things like giving my hard-earned money to Republican-contributing companies!" attitude doesn't jibe with the reality of your decisions.

It's not the fact that you do these things as much as it's that you don't like being called out on them, because you're trying to pretend you're not part of the problem. You are. So am I. Most of us are, in at least some small way, due to the way our society is being run (into the ground). My guess is that those of us who took affront to your post did so because, ironically, YOU'RE trying to pass yourself off as better than the rest of us by kidding yourself that your choices don't impact the rest of the world.

It's self-interested deception, and frankly it's not very liberal. Maybe you should consider that. After all, part of being a liberal is the willingness to reevaluate your beliefs and see if they really do good.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

417. You Are Extremely Full Of Assumtpion

I never said I'm better than anyone else, as I'm not.

I never said my personal decisions don't affect anyone else.

I have never deceived myself.

We all at some point, as can be seen in one of my posts in this thread, support republican contributing companies, whether by our electric company, cable company, company that makes our furniture, supplies our gas or oil, our food, etc.., but that's life. Doesn't make us non liberal, so there is nothing flippant about my statement.

You try and crucify me in so many ways for my statements, as if I have no right to declare myself liberal because I own an SUV and occasionally shop at walmart. But you are wrong. You are dead wrong. In fact, it is that sort of misguided narrowminded must walk in lockstep self righteous mentality that inspired this thread to begin with, and which the majority of posters in this thread agreed is bogus and unbecoming of true liberals. So criticize me all you fucking want for declaring that I'm a liberal, cause it means not a goddamn thing to me.

Wanna know why? CAUSE I'M DAMN FUCKING PROUD TO BE A LIBERAL, AND I, AS WELL AS EVERYBODY ELSE HERE, HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO SAY IT WHENEVER THE FUCK WE WANT.

I AM A LIBERAL AND DAMN PROUD TO BE. DEAL WITH IT

[Zhade]

453. You can say it all you want.

Your actions are still less than liberal.

Deal with it.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

457. No, Actually, No They're Not. I Think Your Judgments In Fact Are. But

no biggie. I'm confident you are liberal in other ways, as all of us here are liberal in a multitude of ways. :hi:

[Zhade]

459. Your decisions work against your ideals.

It's a fact that Wal-Mart is bad for labor rights, for instance.

As long as you acknowledge that you're doing harm by your actions, and consider changing your decisions based on that, you're on the liberal path.

[jsamuel]

340. Liberal Jesus is TOTALLY LIBERAL and the op poster is no comparison

we all need to be EXACTLY like Liberal Jesus or we are nothing!

:eyes:

[Zhade]

410. You're talking to a guy who doesn't even believe Jesus existed.

What an odd non-sequiter your post was!

At any rate, I clarified my position, and I think that concludes my opinion on the matter.

[hippywife]

357. I used to feel the way you do.

I would get all defensive because of the judgemental attitudes of some people in defense of some of these stands. Then I started checking out the info for myself and found out how much of an impact we have on the environment through some of these practices. I'm still not where I should be but I'm working on it.

Don't let the attitudes of some keeping you doing things just to spite them when there is so much at stake and things we can all do in so many small ways to keep our world, and ourselves, alive.

[Blue_Tires]

358. you're also a Rangers fan, so obviously you don't belong here

DEVILS FOR LIFE!!! DEVILS FOREVER!!!!

:evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: }( :bounce: :freak: :nuke:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

371. .

:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:



:)

[Pushed To The Left]

359. Kicked and Recommended!

The progressive fight is about the issues, not personal habits. I am a meat-eater, love pro wrestling and mixed martial arts, and my fiancee and I don't agree politically! :wow: (even though she is slowly becoming more liberal)

[Warren DeMontague]

361. Yes, but are you a Joker? Are you a midnight toker?

Do you play your music in the sun?

Do some people call you Mau-rrrice?

Because, sir, you do speak with the pompatus of love. :hippie:

[axollot]

363. What can I add that hasn't been said?

Oh I know - all this talk of a good steak prompted me to want to make a lovely roast. In a Ronco "set it and forget it" machine.

My husband and I are definitely Liberal. We live in a regular home, in a FL suburb, have three kids age 17 through 3. We have had to shop at Walmart. We smoke. We definitely prefer not to.

Ahh yes, airing the dirty laundry.

I do all these things but I do not like it. I would love to be more self sufficient. (My husband and I are taking turns going back to school to finish college, I am changing careers..).

We try to be proactive in politics to support our beliefs that making life better for ALL Americans, regardless of race, creed, sex et al. is the outcome.

Regardless of what road you are on or the one that took you to being a Liberal (not everyone was born liberal I'm sure) is not important.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

376. Well said, well done, and

welcome to DU.

Stick around. You belong here.

:toast:

[axollot]

381. Thank you.

My husband introduced me to DU many years ago. We are both here daily but rarley post. I am not even sure what name he uses here LOL! I think I have more posts than him too!!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

385. Very Very Good Post. I Agree Whole-Heartedly.

And I like what you have to say. We gotta get ya out of your shell so you post more often :)

[Maine-ah]

379. I agree completely

great post.

[wtmusic]

380. I'm a Democrat who votes Republican, I'm Pro-Life, I worship Bill Frist,

I'm Anti-Gay Marriage, I think the Iraq War was a great idea, and I am every bit as liberal as anyone else.

:silly:

Yah sure.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

382. Methinks You Took That To Extremes Justtttttt A Tad LOL

If you are declaring that anyone who smokes, drives an SUV and occasionally shops at walmart is comparable to someone who votes republican, is pro-life and worships bill frist, than I fear there are all sorts of things wrong with your ability to reason LOL

[wtmusic]

383. Look

all your OP proves is that you have a different definition of what constitutes "liberal" that just about anyone else on this board.

I like making up definitions too. It's fun.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

384. Actually It Doesn't. Not By A Long Shot.

The overwhelming majority of DU would agree that those things I listed have NOTHING to do with being liberal. I don't even need to prove that, as the overwhelming response of approval in this thread alone has done it already. Those supporting the ideal that those things have nothing to do with being a liberal or not vs those that are misguided and self-righteous enough to think they do are easily 5-1 in this thread, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

In fact, I consider those tolerant of others and the ability to be open-minded enough to appreciate how diverse the democratic party is and how NO one or two issues define a liberal, but that it is a plethora of things that are inclusive of being liberal, to be far more deserving of wearing the liberal label than those so militant, zealous and close minded to proclaim that driving an SUV makes one non liberal. You say I have a different definition of liberal than anyone else on this board. I say that my definition of liberal aligns with the overwhelming majority of posters on this board, and would even wager that far more would agree with my assessment of it then the assessment that driving an SUV or being a smoker makes one unliberal.

I fear it is not MY definition that is not in the mainstream here, with all due respect.


On Edit: For any of those wanting the context of my definition of what makes one liberal, I have pasted it below. It is from this very thread:

"Firstly, let me caveat by saying I do not believe there to be a wholesale definition of what makes one liberal. But some very important things I feel are general core values are the ability to be open minded and constantly seeking wisdom and knowledge; tolerance of all different walks of life and opinions; non condoning of racism, prejudice and sexism; desire for all to have a deserving quality of life and the best healthcare the talents of the human race have acquired; generosity, deep and sincere empathy and kindness; the willingness to help others in need at any time for any reason; not condoning violence or war unless it is absolutely the only way to protect ourselves; being honest, candid and acting with integrity wherever and however possible; respect for all as equals; having the ability to forgive immediately to all those sincerely asking for it; the desire to genuinely want to help the needy, poor and less fortunate; the belief that all those who work are entitled to fair conditions and fair pay; and just the general all around spirit of decency towards humanity and the desire for the world to be as peaceful as it can be.

Now granted, this is a bit idealistic and is my opinion only. But I think liberalism at it's core is just simply rooted in open-mindedness, fairness and caring towards all."

[wtmusic]

420. Love your definition

For real. It's among the best I've heard.

But if you espouse values that include "deep and sincere empathy and kindess" how can you in good conscience shop at Wal-Mart? At all?

Some people need to drive an SUV. But if you're not driving offroad and having a good reason to do it, it's all vanity. The ultimate in the American power-projection statement: "I can afford the steel and the gas, you can suck my fumes." How does this square with your "desire for all to have a deserving quality of life"-- when you're using eight times as much energy, creating eight times as much pollution as the average person in the world, making eight times the contribution to global warming? Why is it not only selfish but short-sighted as well?

I rarely eat steak. but I admit I don't share the moral resolve with many here of it being wrong. I'll admit I'm not as liberal in that respect. At the same time, the people who have posted here that it IS morally wrong make a damn good argument.

Nobody's passing judgement on you so they can feel superior. That's nuts. What they're doing is calling you on your statement that you're "as liberal as anyone else".

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

424. Honestly wtm?

Thank you very much for that, in reference to my definition. I do believe in it wholeheartedly and it is from my heart.

What I don't understand though is why you and others in this thread have this presumption that I am proud of owning an SUV or boastful about shopping at walmart occasionally. It isn't like that at all. I shop at walmart occasionally for certain items because they are cheaper there than I can get anywhere else, especially items for my infant and toddler. I do feel walmart is evil in a lot of ways and detest their practices, but at the end of the day I do what I gotta do to keep my family going the best way I can.

As far as the SUV goes, I explained that somewhere else in this thread as well. It wasn't preference or desire to get the SUV, it was necessity at the time. My old car died unexpectedly and suddenly, and there was little time and less money to shop around with. I needed a new vehicle asap. I always thought, prior to my other car dying, that when it did die someday I'd finally be able to experience the pleasure of owning a brand new car. I longed for that. I never had a brand new car. Every car I've owned has been second hand or worse. Unfortunately, I again didn't have that chance when my car did die, but far more suddenly than anticipated. I needed a replacement asap and only had so much cash to spend in addition to what monthly payments I could afford with a loan since I hadn't had any payments prior. I knew I needed a car that could fit a double stroller and two car seats, since my wife was due to have our second beautiful child within a few months, at the time. We went to every used dealer in our area frantically searching for some sort of minivan in our price range with low mileage, or some sort of wagon. There weren't any. They were either overpriced or way too old with way too much mileage. We finally ended up at Salerno Pontiac and there in the lot was the 2002 Chevy Blazer. The room seemed good, the mileage was low, and the price was right (but only because it had been bought at auction after having been in an accident, but I could see the repair job they were hiding from me and looked it over thoroughly, and made the decision that though I knew they were hiding its history from me, what I could find was copeable enough for me to ignore it). My wife thought it would be good to fit the kids' stuff in so though I was no fan of trucks or SUV's (I prefer cars anyday, especially cause I love good handling), I considered it. I took it for a test drive and though I was extremely uncomfortable in it at first (driving an SUV for the first time is a totally different experience) I decided we needed something asap and this was good enough. Know what the biggest part of the test drive that sold me was? The heat. Yes, the heat. I lived in a camaro through two cold ass winters almost freezing to death a dozen times. Every car I've ever owned never had good heat or even working heat for that matter. I hate the cold. Loathe the cold. This heater burned my friggin face off. I figured good enough, we had no real time to look at other places anyway, so I signed the papers.

That's the story. Nothing to brag about at all. We needed a car. It was all we could afford at the time that had the room we needed. Life is what it is.

So please, understand, I do not brag about these things, they just simply are what they are. I just simply don't think it is justified to see thread after thread, day after day, making other fellow liberals feel like shit because they may do one of these things. I believe wholeheartedly in the definition I posted, but I don't believe any part of that definition includes having to be perfect. Lord knows I'm not. Not by a friggin longshot. But I try, best I can to be. I try in all the ways I can to reach out to people, to help people, to care about humanity and live with as much integrity and empathy as possible. But I'm not perfect. I know I can be blunt at times, prickish at times, arrogant, egotistical, cocky and obnoxious at times, but so can many of us. I can also be extremely thoughtful, caring, selfless, and giving as well. I am a liberal because I believe in the definition I posted, and because I try to live by those ideals as often as possible. I have no doubt that the majority of DU'ers do as well, even though I may heatedly disagree with them on certain things. In fact, I have no doubt that you believe in them too, and even if we disagree, I know you're fighting the fight same as I in your own way, and would not question your commitment to the liberal ideals.

I know this is long winded. I'm tired. I don't even know why I finally took the opportunity to explain myself. But maybe it's because it was overdue, or maybe it was because I couldn't take the assumptions any more that the point of this thread was to boast. I would never say those things are things to be proud of, as that would be arrogant and ignorant. I'm just saying it isn't fair to diminish one's core values of liberalism because of them.

Goodnight.

[wtmusic]

430. Thanks

for the time and thought you put into explaining yourself. I accept blame for not really getting the gist of the OP, which I would have gotten had I read more of your responses. It seems to be suggesting more "we do the best we can, and when we can't, we don't"--an idea to which I'm a wholehearted subscriber.

There is another point worth mentioning in defense of this point of view--sometimes we make small sacrifices to core values to make a contribution to the greater good. Do we skip the fundraising drive so we can make some extra cash at work--and then contribute it to our favorite charity? Do fellow fundraisers interpret this as greed? Do we spend time with our kids to make them aware, responsible citizens that will hopefully carry on our values after we're gone, or do we spend the time at a soup kitchen? If I took the time I spend on DU, applied it to my job, and gave the money to the ACLU I'd likely be putting my time to a better use, although I'm certain I wouldn't be as aware of the many important functions the ACLU performs if it wasn't for DU...

I'm rambling too but you see what I'm getting at. Good intent and perseverance make up for a lot of minor evils. :thumbsup:

[enigmatic]

402. I agree with the OP

even though I don't smoke, shop at Wal-Mart, or even drive, let alone an SUV. But I've also worked on Democratic causes all my life, even as an Expat.

Am I out of the club, too?

[Zhade]

412. What's interesting is the disconnect here.

OMC actually posted what I found to be a rather good working definition of 'liberal' somewhere upthread. I share most of the same ideas.

Yet the decisions he boasts of, particularly Wal-Mart and driving an SUV. work AGAINST his own definition!

This post pretty much sums up why I think the OP is an exercise in self-deception, one we're all too ready to fall for.

It's called rationalizing. And the OP's attitude smacks highly of it. Doesn't make him bad, just human.

The whole "fuck you, I'm a liberal, so there" attitude doesn't help, anymore than the "no you're not" without explanation does, though.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

418. Thank You. It Was My Heart Felt Definition And One I Live By.

I'm glad you agreed so wholeheartedly with my personal views on liberalism, and validate my core values since I do firmly believe they encompass many of what most would consider to be accurate of liberal concepts. I'm sure my definition isn't perfect, and I'm certain other DU'ers could improve upon it. I do appreciate your kind words towards it though.

One little comment though. I never boasted that I shop at walmart or own an SUV. That's embellished on your part and it's a shame you felt that need.

I also never said fuck you I'm a liberal, so there, or portrayed anything similar to that tone, so I'm disappointed in your assessment there as well.

But no matter, at least you really appreciated my definition of liberal, since that is what I truly believe in, which means we see far more eye to eye then you are opening your mind enough to realize....

[Zhade]

454. No, I said your ATTITUDE was "fuck you, I'm a liberal".

Not that you actually said those words.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

458. Ehhh, Either Way It Was Meant It Was Still Utterly Inaccurate.

Whether you said it was a quote or an esssence or not is completely inconsequential to how inaccurate and misguided the statement was.

But I'm still glad you liked my personal definition of what being a liberal is since by approving of it you confirmed and validated the actual intended message of the OP to begin with.

[Zhade]

460. Your OP is at odds with your ideals.

You will continue to deny that, of course. Most people don't like being wrong, it's natural.

[ScreamingMeemie]

389. ...

:applause:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

391. Honestly, You Actually Think That Post Carries Any Weight Or Relevance?

No wonder why you and I never agree on things, as you stated upthread. :eyes:

[ScreamingMeemie]

395. It sure does. I thought it was hysterical. If you read Maddy's locked

thread and laughed, then you have a sense of humor...If it angered you, then you need to get out more. :eyes:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

397. I Did Read That Thread Actually

And I LAUGHED MY ASS OFF!

But not with her or the other abusive immature bullies in it, I laughed at them at the sheer childishness. But I definitely had a sense of humor about it, if that counts for anything. As far as anger? This is a message board. I never get angry at anonymous bitter posters on a message board. I'm not that sensitive LOL

[ScreamingMeemie]

399. No, as mentioned before...you have your persona to protect. As does

everyone else. It is not for me to laugh "at" anyone until I've walked a mile in their shoes.

[oblivious]

426. "abusive immature bullies...sheer childishness...anonymous bitter posters"

Were we that bad? I thought that thread was funny as hell. Maddy McCall was on a roll.

A bit on the sarcastic side maybe.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1005199

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

427. Actually, I Think It Was One Of The Most Disgraceful, Immature,

grade school mentality threads I've even seen from any poster ever on DU. I think it brought shame to this site by its very existance, and thumbed noses directly at the mods and admins of this incredible site by so blatantly disrespecting the rules.

Here's a liberal value for you to write down: Taunting and attacking others publicly through immaturity, mockery, and gang-up bullying while high fiving each other and laughing in a cowardly fashion in a clique thread while cheering each other on to further the abusive tone is not something indicitave of liberals. It just isn't, no matter how you try and justify it. I'm not sure the alert button ever had a more valid use then for garbage like that. DU is the cream of the crop website for liberals to gather, in my opinion, and I respect it as such. Garbage like that should never be found here, as it belongs somewhere else.

[oblivious]

429. OIC. So it was you who got it locked. A sense of humor is not a bad thing.

[Maddy McCall]

423. He laughed as he was pounding on the alert button.

So much for diversity of opinion. :rofl:

[omega minimo]

439. MindCrime Accomplished

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

441. Yes. It Was Just All Part Of My Evil Plan. It's All A Huge Conspiracy.

:crazy: :silly:


Orrrrr, maybe it was simply a disgraceful anti-DU guidelines thread that 100% deserved to be locked and thrown in the garbage. :think:


Hmmmm, big evil plan and conspiracy or thread deserving of locking... ...big evil plan and conspiracy or a thread deserving of locking. Hmmmmm...

Think I'm gonna have to go with Occam's razor on this one...

[QC]

407. IMPURE!!! IMPURE!!! YOU ARE IMPURE!!!

Get thee behind me, Satan!

[mtnsnake]

408. I don't smoke, but I go for broke, & I drink some Coke with the old folk.

yeah

[ComerPerro]

433. Won't you join me, then, for a nice steak, a good cigar, and

a beer run to Wal Mart?


:lmao:

[lukasahero]

434. Sarte:

"One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are -- your life, and nothing more." -- No Exit -- Jean Paul Sarte

[Uncle Roy]

438. Mencken on altruists:

Men are the only animals that devote themselves, day in and day out, to making one another unhappy. It is an art like any other. Its virtuosi are called altruists.

- H. L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

[The Stranger]

442. No problem. Just --

Quit smoking, trade in the SUV for a hybrid, ditch Wal-Mart for Costco, and drop the beef for tofu.

PROBLEM SOLVED!

[Beaverhausen]

443. Is someone confusing libertarian with liberal?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

444. No, You Were Mistaken. n/t

[Yollam]

446. SUVs and Walmart both suck, and steak is overrated.

Since Stupid Ugly Vehicles are legal now, you are entitled to drive one. Now should supposed passenger vehicles that block other drivers' view, that roll over more in crashes, that waste huge amounts of gas be street legal? IN my opinion, not in 2006. There should be options for people who need bigger vehicles with more carrying capacity, but there really should be stricter limits on their height and fuel consumption. But hey, you're within the present law, and since freedom of speech is still protected, knock yourself out with defensive declarations about your wasteful and selfish driving choices. A lot of us are trying to conserve fuel and not pollute and believe that that in and of itself is a worthy goal that deserves cooperation by all, but hey, YOUR PERSONAL COMFORT and EGO are more important than the environment or other drivers' ability to see the road ahead, right?

Wal-Mart - you're doubtless aware of their right-wing political donations, their horrible labor practices, the poorr quality of the flimsy imported crap they sell, and yet you're proud to go there and buy crapola you don't need. Fine, but why brag about it? Is this post trying to show how manly and All-American you are, "in spite of being a liberal"? Let me tell you, there is nothing more manly and all-American than DOING THE RIGHT THING, even if it might look nebbishy and uncool in your neck of the woods.

As for steak, I have no gripe with that, since I eat meat too. I know it's not the most ecologically sustainable diet, but I like to eat a variety of things. But steak - IE a big, boring slab of meat with some sauce on it, is a pretty damn boring meal. I'd much rather have some ethnic food. But hey, if a slab of meat with a baked potato on the side floats your boat, who am I to argue? But again, it seems to fit in with some kind of neurotic need to show how manly and all-American you are. Next you'll be telling us how wrapped up you get in the NCAA playoffs or how much you love cigars. So what? A lot of liberals like those things. That's the great thing about the left. You can be a chip-chomping, blue-collar football nut, or you can be a prissy gay hairdresser, or you can be a granola-chomping University professor with a Volvo that runs on french fry grease. It's all good. It's the OTHER side that expects you to act in the way you describe. So why does it seem like you're filling out a resume to join THEM? There are no "lifestyle requirements" to be on this side.


PS - I quit smoking 14 years ago, when I was still a right-winger. Cigarettes are filthy, disgusting and a massive waste of your money. Again, they are legal, so do as you please, but should you really be BRAGGING that you continue to do something so STUPID?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

447. I Couldn't Even Begin To Take That Post Seriously.

If ya actually want me to listen to your long winded rants, then at least include something accurate and worthy of discussion.

There was no bragging and no display of ego, and your use of misguided melodramatic over the top attempts for guilt trips made the rest of the post so not worthy of reading that if there was some gem of wisdom hidden in there somewhere it would've been overlooked.

[Yollam]

448. ????

Melodramatic guilt trips?

You didn't read anything I wrote.


Face it. YOU invited criticism by posting a defensive screed about your lifestyle. Nobody would bother you about it if you weren't making a point of BRAGGING about it. Some people are addicted to porn or painkillers, others are addicted to wasteful overconsumption. I don't make a point of browbeating such people, unless they come out and try to make the ludicrous claim that such behaviors are somehow part and parcel of an overall progressive package. Gimme a break.


So you vote liberal but you think trying to live in a more ethical way is stupid, is that what you're saying? Exactly what is your point, if not to just stroke your freaking ego?


I KNOW you're not trying to make the point that we liberals are a bunch of intolerant tree-hugging puritans, because that is BS.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

450. LMFAO!

You are literally cracking me up! :rofl:

Let me make this very clear to you, so that we don't have to go round in circles debating absurd accusations ok?

There was no bragging.

Those things listed in the OP have nothing to do with being a liberal or not.

I have said NOWHERE, nor ever would, that living ethically is stupid. That assumption is twisted in its logic.

The post has NOTHING to do with stroking an ego.

The post was a kind message to all those members of DU who feel persecuted at one time or another because they do something that the 'liberal jesus' followers don't agree with. It was a positive message of tolerance and understanding.

No. Liberals are not a bunch of intolerant tree-hugging puritans. That's the whole damn point of the thread. Only the extremist zealots are.

Now please, these are the facts of the OP. I wrote the thread, I can declare its message. Those bulletpoints are the facts. If you can, please try and avoid twisting them beyond recognition in further replies. But if you must, please know the accusations will still carry no validity.

[Yollam]

451. "I Smoke Crack, and Own A PCB-Belching Factory, but I'm still a Liberal"

It's about the same as what you're saying with your declaration. Why should anyone "feel persecuted" just because someone here might point out the destructiveness of one or more of their lifestyle choices. To my knowledge, NO individual posters are singled out and attacked for such things. Nobody here has to know what you drive, eat, smoke or screw. You cannot be "Persecuted" just because some DUers occasionally post FACTS regarding the consequences of lifestyle choices.

It has EVERYTHING to do with ego. Why on earth else would you concoct such a nonsensical thread, or fabricate this mythical "persecution" if not ego? I'm a meat-eater, I am NOT a loyal democrat, because I'm too far left of the party, protecting Roe v. Wade and GLBT rights are very low on my priority list, and I don't much care for Starbucks, even though a lot of DUers like it because it's a "blue" company, but I don't feel "persecuted" against by DU just because I'm not in the mainstream of opinion. Nobody attacks me for those things unless I come out and post screeds about them, as you have done.

The only absurd accusation is the one where you accuse DU of persecuting smokers who drive SUVs and shop in tacky big box stores. People like you (white, suburban voracious consumers) have gobbled up half of this country's usable land with your lifestyle, and you wield more power than any other group at the ballot box, so stop whining about being "persecuted".

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

452. Yes. You Are Just So Perfect And Everyone On DU Is Always Civil.

:silly:


Honestly dude, more power to ya for continuing to spout such inaccuracies about this thread. But my previous post tells it like it is, and no false opinion can override that.

[Zhade]

463. Great post.

NT!

[mattclearing]

455. That's some bullshit.

If you shop at Wal-Mart and drive an SUV,

You are not as liberal as me.

Sorry. :)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

456. If That's What Makes Ya Feel Special Go For It. It's Not Accurate And All,

but who am I to piss on your delusion. :)

[mattclearing]

464. That other stuff you asked that person above doesn't apply the same to me.

I'm expatriating, after all. ;)

Nothing delusional about it. A lot of the things you mentioned above were things that are monopolized or have no good sources (energy, telecom).

With all due respect to the rural people here on DU, there are very few places in the U.S. where there isn't a viable alternative to Wal-Mart.

Have you seen what Wal-Mart does to its employees? How they refuse to pay them decent wages and then encourage them to sign up for public assistance?

You can rationalize it any way you want, but there's nothing liberal about shopping at Wal-Mart, and it does reflect on your values as a liberal.

[upi402]

462. it takes a village

i like some extreme motorsports myself

i know vegetarians who drink and smoke

it just has got to the point that i have no more tolerance for the religiously intolerant and corporatists supplanting true Democrats