Court says schools can ban anti-gay t-shirts

[proud2BlibKansan]

Schools in the western United States can forbid a high school student from wearing a T-shirt that denigrates gay and lesbian students, a sharply divided federals appeals court in San Francisco ruled today.

In a 2-1 decision, the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals said that a T-shirt that proclaimed "Be Ashamed, Our School Embraced What God Has Condemned'' on the front and "Homosexuality Is Shameful'' on the back was "injurious to gay and lesbian students and interfered with their right to learn.'' The court said that the shirt can be barred on a public high school campus without violating the 1st Amendment

more . . .
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2006/04/21/calif-court-bans-student_n_19527.html

[SlipperySlope]

1. Like my name says, I think this is a SlipperySlope

Banning messages we don't like is a dangerous precedent to set. The first steps seem reasonable, but I hate to think where this leads.

[Bush_MUST_Go]

2. Good ruling. Why should public schools allow blatant hatred?

Let the religious school students wear that kind of crap but keep the public schools 'safe' for EVERYONBE.

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. I agree

[moobu2]

4. Schools have an interest in keeping order in the classroom

Students, while at school, don’t have an automatic right to free speech, if that speech is disruptive. It has nothing to do with anything other than that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. You are correct

[Inland]

7. I think it's a great precedent to set.

Where might it lead to? Absolutely no messages on shirts of any kind in school. The Republic will survive.

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. Our kids wear uniforms

It is wonderful - we don't have to deal with ANY t-shirts.

[tandot]

8. It is a public school, funded with the taxes I pay

Messages that clearly incite hate have no place in public education. Or, would you allow a t-shirt that insults and says derogatory things about black people?

If they want to spew that crap, they should do it after school. Hopefully, they'll come across someone who is pissed enough to whup their asses.

[Warren DeMontague]

39. We've been through this before. First Amendment rights for kids IN SCHOOL

are not absolute.

Think a kid could walk into one of those D.A.R.E. propaganda fests wearing a shirt with a pot leaf? Come on.

[SlipperySlope]

53. We are sliding all over the slope...

Confederate flag is protected: A federal court ruled that school officials violated the rights of a high school students when they disciplined him for wearing a t-shirt bearing an image of the Confederate flag. The ACLU of West Virginia filed the suit against the school on behalf of the student.

USMC motto with M-16 is protected: Fort Wayne Community Schools officials violated a high school student's free-speech rights when they suspended him for wearing a T-shirt bearing the likeness of an M-16 rifle and the text of the Marine Corps creed, a federal court ruled on March 11.

Vagina Monologues NOT protected: Two Winona high school students were suspended yesterday after breaking a week-old rule against wearing T-shirts inspired by the Vagina Monologues play.


These cases are popping up ALL over the country. Pro-abortion, anti-abortion, pro-gun, anti-gun, pro-gay, anti-gay, pro-bush, anti-bush. This is a hot topic, and the district courts aren't in agreement.

Mark my words, this is going to go to SCOTUS eventually. They last ruled in 1969 on Tinker v. Des Moines, and even if a student's first amendment rights are not absolute, they do not lose them at the schoolhouse door.

There is a difference between a shirt that says "Homosexuality is a sin" and a shirt that says "Kill a queer for Christ". I personally feel the first is an expression of speech, and the latter is an incitement to hate.

If we silence the voices we disagree with, we too may end up silenced.

[Warren DeMontague]

55. I think that either you have to permit ALL expression

or you have to let the schools and school districts set their own rules.

Believe me, no one is bigger on the first amendment than me. I grew up in a mostly Jewish town near Chicago; I had relatives who died in the camps, and I remember the Nazis marching in Skokie. Offensive? Sure. But the freedom for them to have their say is the best antidote to everything those shitheads stand for.

Really, I find it disheartening that so many self-appointed 'progressives' think it's fine and dandy to play the censor with material that personally bugs them or runs contrary to the agenda they are peddling, because (as I have been told on this board) "freedom of speech is only for speech that serves a (my) purpose" and "**** (fill in the blank) isn't speech"

But, honestly, I don't know if the line you draw between 'expression of speech' and an 'incitement to hate' is so easily drawn. So, like I said, either you have a situation where censoring kids is totally unacceptable- be they wearing a confederate flag, a pink triangle, or a pot leaf- and I could live with that, but it needs to be across the board IMHO- or you accept that while kids are in school, their first amendment rights are not absolute.

[dsc]

3. I fear giving government the right to ban the anti gay t shirts

as I know my local government would be far more likely to ban pro gay ones. This could really bite us on the ass.

[moobu2]

6. stop fearing, The ruling only applies to the class room.

[dsc]

9. which is where I work

I would hate to see a gay student forbidden from wearing a gay and proud t shirt if he or she desired.

[SlipperySlope]

12. Bingo!

Once you grant the power to censor, you are on the wrong path.

[dsc]

13. hard cases make bad law

I realize that a shirt like that could be very disruptive in a school setting. But free speech should mean something as well.

[Evoman]

15. Yeah

but it wouldn't be cool if they had shirts that said. "Heterosexuals Christians like little boys. Shame on them."

There is a difference between a self-affirming message, i.e. a heterosexual with a shirt "I love me the womens" and a derogatory one "Die fag".

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. In many schools, that would be like wearing a target

Sorry but I disagree.

[dsc]

27. It would be

but I can attest to the fact that staying closeted in high school did little to no good in that regard.

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. Aren't there less disruptive ways to come out of the closet?

I think we have a right to set a standard of decorum at school. I am not opposed to pro gay shirts because I oppose gays. Hopefully, you realize that. :)

I am just concerned about the disruption these shirts would cause.

[dsc]

34. I do realize that

and I actually favor school uniforms in order to avoid this whole issue, but if a school permits any t shirts, then they should have to let them be worn equally.

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. Good point

We wear uniforms. It does cut down on all this crap.

[Warren DeMontague]

40. So - could a kid wear a pro-marijuana t-shirt to your school, much less

into a D.A.R.E. class?

If not, then you're banning expression.

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. Schools have strict rules about wearing t-shirts

that promote drugs or alcohol.

[Warren DeMontague]

46. Mkay. So, then, clearly the first amendment is not absolute when it comes

to kids while they're in public school.

End of discussion.

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. You are right it is not.

[dsc]

43. we do ban things

and I think we do so wrongly. We ban both the confederate flag and black muslim apparell. I think that is foolish. We also ban gang signs.

[Warren DeMontague]

48. I agree with you, you can't do it selectively.

If kids are going to have the right to wear t-shirts promoting Republicans, or gay bashing, the confederate flag, or the War in Iraq, they should have the right to wear pro-gay statements or pro-pot t-shirts into DARE classes, too.

[MelliMel]

10. You got it.

There is nothing to stop a school from banning pro-gay rights shirts now. Or anti-Bush, et al.

[bigwillq]

11. Hello.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[MelliMel]

18. Thank you for the welcome!! :bounce: n/t

[northofdenali]

16. Hi, Melli, welcome to DU -

and I agree. However, disruptive clothing of any type has no place in a pre-college setting. After school groups excepted; the PFLAG kids groups here as well as the Bible Baptist kids, the Republican and Democratic kids, etc. can wear their thoughts on their sleeves, so to speak - in their after-school groups. But not in class.

Class is for learning, and disruptive clothing (having been on both ends of it) can disrupt.

[MelliMel]

17. Which is why

I am not opposed to dress codes or uniforms. Cut down on disruption and cut down on "so and so gets their clothes at thre Limited while so and so has to shop at Walmart".

Thanks for the welcome! B-)

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. Agreed

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. I have tons of anti bush shirts

and I would NEVER wear one to school. I just don't think shirts like this belong at school.

[dsc]

29. The SC disagrees with you

in regards to students. I do think you have no business wearing those t shirts as you are a teacher. I do think a student should be permitted to wear one.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. The courts have also said that not all constitutional rights apply at

schools. We do have the right to search kids for example, without a warrant. Lockers are also searched frequently. And school newspapers may be censored.

[dsc]

35. true

though the lockers are because the school owns them. I actually am not sure about searching students. I think that we need probable cause. The school newspapers are due to the school owning the paper.

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. I wouldn't hesitate to go through a backpack

if I thought there was something in it that shouldn't be there, like a weapon. Usually, I ask the kid to bring me their backpack and dump it out. So it's not like I am searching THEM. In a sticky situation, I wait until the kids are out of the room and then I search the backpack. I know it's a slippery slope legally but I am putting the safety of my kids first. I teach special ed. Many of my kids have trouble handling anger. I have had more than a few kids slip a knife in their backpack to bring to school.

It's one of those deals that if they want to fire me for keeping my kids safe, so be it.

[dsc]

44. It is a close issue

given the ages of the kids and a presumed lack of police involvement I would imagine that a court would OK it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

22. No offense, but do pro gay t-shirts REALLY belong at school?

I say no. I think they are just as disruptive as these in the OP.

[dsc]

24. What if a girl wears a shirt with her girlfriends pic?

or if a male wears his boyfriends ring around his neck? I can easily see my district banning that practice while letting straights do so.

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. That would be discriminatory

Wearing rings certainly isn't as disruptive as these t-shirts, either pro or anti gay.

[dsc]

31. It is perfectly legal to discriminate against gays

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. Well you know I think that is wrong.

I have seen the way gay kids are treated at elementary school. It is sick that kids as young as 6 think there is something wrong with being gay. One of my 5th graders made a comment yesterday. I always pounce on them and tell them there is absolutely nothing wrong with being gay, it just means that person is different from you.

Did I ever tell you that I dressed up as the purple teletubby one Halloween? I even carried a red purse. It was awesome. I had conversations all day long with kids about being tolerant of gay people. Last year, we had a gay 5th grade boy and he was teased a lot by the other kids. My principal said one day 'maybe it's time for you to wear that teletubby costume again'.

So I do think we have an obligation to teach kids to be tolerant and kind to one another. I just don't think letting them wear these t-shirts is the answer. But I could be wrong.

[dsc]

38. a gay fifth grader?

I guess I sort of knew back then but never would have admitted it. I once said a fellow male student was cute, though I didn't mean it in a sex way, and the teacher stood up for me. I never forgot that. You sound like a great teacher.

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. Oh you are too kind

Yes we had him for 6 years, from kdg thru 5th grade and he was as gay as a kid can be. He was out of the closet by age 6 or 7. All the kids knew he was gay because he told them. Then he beat the shit out of them when they teased him. We had a bigger problem with him because he was a bully.

A friend of mine in another school has a 6th grade boy who wears makeup and polishes his nails. When they have uniform free days, he wears girls clothes. His parents are very tolerant and let him dress like a girl. But the school is trying to work with them to keep him from being tormented by the other kids. It is a really sad situation.

[dsc]

49. man

Part of me wishes I had had the guts to be that way in school. I didn't though. I never had any interest in wearing girls clothing, frankly it is very uncomfortable (I dressed as Ed Wood for Holloween one year and never was more uncomfortable). I have met openly gay people in the Ohio schools I worked in but none down here.

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. I have worked with a lot of gay teachers

But they come out to me, not to everyone else. They know I am cool with it. But you know how conservative teachers can be. I think it would be hard to be openly gay where I teach. Too many fundie nuts. And you never can tell how the parents might react.

My son's third grade teacher was gay. My son knew it, and he loved the man. He told me not long ago that he can never think badly of any gay person because of Mr. D. He made quite an impression on him.

[dsc]

54. I am glad your son was so impressed by him

I am not open at school as I fear being fired. In a couple of years, when I get tenure, I think I will be more open with teachers. I know that about half would be OK and the other half wouldn't.

[tandot]

5. Great. They should focus on education, not on spewing that vile sh*t

They have enough time after school to spew their hateful and ignorant messages. If they don't like public schools, they should go to one of these hate-promoting private schools.

[Evoman]

14. At my school, we couldn't wear anything offensive

I don't know why it bothers people so much. We couldn't wear anything that advertised drugs or liquour, anything overtly sexual, or anything deemed very offensive. If some kid tried to wear a shirt to school saying, "Black look great in Handcuffs" or "Caucasians are evil warmongers", they would get kicked out or asked to take the shirt off.

Why is it all of a sudden a slippery slope when people are asked to refrain from being derogatory to gays and lesbians at school? Is it because its gays are evil and it is our right to tell them so? Hey, I'm an atheist...free speech...I should get to wear a shirt that says "Heterosexual Christian Males are all pedophiles and wife beaters" Um, no.


Nobody is stopping you from putting your disgusting shirt on after you leave the school.

Evoman

[Swamp Rat]

33. When I was a child, I wore a t-shirt that said

"Man made booze, God made weed. Who do you trust?" :D

It was mildly disruptive for a few moments, but after everyone stopped laughing, including the teachers, I even forgot I was wearing it.

On the other hand, hate speech should be barred from the classroom (unless it is part of a curriculum concerning racism and bigotry). I agree with the ruling on that particular t-shirt.

Maybe the parents should consider private fundie schools for the little bigots-in-training?

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. LOL Something tells me you had quite a t-shirt collection as a kid

:)

I want that picture on a t-shirt. I have friends in Topeka. It would make a nice gift.

[Swamp Rat]

51. My dad bought it for me after a visit to the dentist.

He was a teacher too! :D

[The Straight Story]

56. Quash dissent early

Makes for a better 'merica.