Met a SEAL just back from Iraq last night

[TorchTheWitch]

I worked Saturday night at a club here in Philly. A few guys had come in that I can only describe as being built like that Warner Bros. cartoon bulldog... MASSIVE chests and arms (we're talking serious brick shithouse here). They were Navy SEALS just returned from Iraq. I recognized that burned out sort of "lost" look my SO had when he got back and in sympathy asked one of them about it. He wasn't very talkative at first but then mentioned that he was one of the guys breaking down doors in Falujah. I said that must have been difficult, and at that point he suddenly looked away from me, got visibly tense and said...

"Difficult? Hell no! It was awesome! Smashing in doors and blasting the fuckers right in the face!... shoot 'em right off their feet! It was so fucking cool! Cowards crying and begging at my feet and... HA!... just laugh and blam! WOW!"... blah, blah, blah (more disgusting information I had to close my ears to or I couldn't sleep at night).

My jaw hit the floor. It wasn't just what he said. It was the absolute vacant yet wild way he looked when he said it. It was SICK SICK FUCKING SICK!

I was so shocked and disgusted and livid I had to excuse myself and get away from him caring not one iota that he was flush with cash and hadn't seen a so much as a woman's knees in nearly two years. I was literally shaking with anger and utter disgust.

I fumed for the rest of the night completely unable to let it go, and that is so unlike me. As a stripper I have to deal with guys saying the most bizarre and foul things to me, but it all just rolls off like water off a duck... just doesn't faze me. Weirdos are a dime a dozen in this business.

But, THIS... THIS!

I only remember the basic jist of what he blathered on about once I tried to close my ears... blasting away at men, women, old people, children, ANYONE... UGH! I don't want to remember.

But what I will never forget is that through his whole harangue, he never once smiled. He never once focused on anything and appeared to be looking in the general area of space. He looked... beautific - like he was looking at the face of God. Yet there was that tension and what I can only describe as underlying wildness, like a cyclone trapped in a box... not a quietude and peace one would think someone would appear to look when looking at the face of God.

It wasn't until I was driving home that I realized... this man is sick - ILL. What he was made to do has fried his brain. Nobody but nobody blasts innocent people in their homes into clumps of bloody flesh and REVELS in it unless they've seriously popped a screw. Maybe it's some bizarre unconscious defense mechanism... to do something so utterly foul in order to live with it you have to convince yourself it actually brought you JOY.

I had to pull off the highway a couple of exits before mine just so I could park somewhere and cry for a bit... and I'm one of those people that cries maybe once per decade.

And now, although I'm beyond disgusted at what he did, I pity him. This man will never be right in head again. I believe at some point his mind is going to break out, and he will be so completely shattered as to not be able to function. I don't know that there is any amount of therapy that will ever make this man normal. I actually see this man at some point blasting away at his OWN face.

What in the name of all that is sacred is our government DOING to what was once probably very normal and healthy people??? The military and government behind them are brainwashing and "training" people to become monsters only to throw them away when they crack and are no longer useful.

Somewhere along the way it had to have been recognized that this guy is out of his tree. But because he still functions and can still do what he's told he won't get any help for his scrambled brain because they WANT him to be this way... they WANT it. This is so evil and wrong and twisted and INHUMAN.

Never before have I been this ashamed of my country. With everything that has happened since that FUCKING CRIMINAL squatted in the White House I've been embarrassed and angry and ashamed...

But, THIS... THIS!

[Swamp Rat]

1. .

:hug:

[cali]

2. Oh, man. I'm so sorry.

That's a horrific story- thanks for writing it up in such a powerful way. I felt like I was right there. The only vet I know, a kid of 20, is a total basketcase, but nothing like the guy you describe.

[The Doctor.]

198. Most SF guys hide it better...

I've been around more than a few of them. At first it takes a while to get the hairs on the back of your neck to stop prickling, but after you've been through some of their training... even a fraction... you get it.

I've never bothered to mention this, but I trained HTH with a guy out of the Rangers. He was recon in 'Nam. One of the things that I'll never get out of my system is the incredible 'high-alert' state that I was always in while training.
It's hard to describe, it is all at once a state of alertness, relaxation, paranoia, and energy. It settles into you after only a few weeks of training... and then it's permanent.

Until I nearly split a kid's face open for moving in a way I was 'conditioned' to respond to.

I dropped it after that, or tried. But it's still there, this thing, this 'programming'.

To this day I can still 'sense' so much about those around me. Every motion in a room, every attitude, I can't help it. And if they are trained in real HTH, if they are real killers, they stick out like a bright red flashing light... especially the ones who try to hide it.

I have zero doubt that some DU vets know exactly what I'm talking about... and more.

Personal crap aside, our SF guys go through some very serious shit before they even hit the field. Some here have been there, or know those who have. Nothing in the movies can touch what really goes down.

They are conditioned to do things that anyone with empathy is incabable of, and for good reasons... reasons that I respect. But have no doubts; We create monsters to do things that humans would not.

[ldf]

202. i wouldn't be surprised if, along with that "conditioning" was

drugs.

not feel good drugs, but drugs that would make them capable of doing just that.

i believe that bush, cheney and rumsfield, and the rest of that ilk, would approve doing ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING to our young people over there, to make them go along and not question.

i pity that young man, big time. he will have to live with that until he addresses it. and addressing it will NOT be pretty.

what would really be fair, is if, when addressing it, he, and they, turned on the people that made them into the uncaring killing machines that they are.

that would be a fitting resolution.

[The Doctor.]

208. The ranger I trained with divorced his third wife

about a decade ago. I haven't seen him since a little before then.

Once trained to 'see things' a certain way, it can be hard to function in a 'normal' life. There are a few who do well, most of those have some fairly stolid but encompassing philosophy.

The drugs... well, that's something I don't know much about at all. I know they get injections all the time, often without a decent explanation.

But I can tell you this;

It doesn't take drugs to condition someone properly, there's all kinds of ways to do that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

226. Yes,. yes there is

Out of basic you have channged them boots from civilians to (insert whatever this basic was for)... and it just gets worst from there for the SF folk... and yes I know EXACTLY what you are talking about... I only got shot at (as a medic), but to this day I react to backfires... it IS automatic, and I know you realize exactly what I am talking about. It gets far worst for combat troops, and even worst for SF troops.

Oh and by the way, I absolutely HATE July 4th, them fire crackers drive me absolutely batty, even if I know what they are.

[The Doctor.]

263. You know that look.

I honestly would never want to go through what they do just in training. Even though I know I like to think I could still make it, it wouldn't be worth becoming the thing I would wind up.
I like to think I could reconcile it all... that I can encompass a grand philosophy to deal with the endless impulses. But I know that abyssal philosophy, and it hurts every divine fiber of my being, though it may be one alone.

And the image of that kid bleeding down the front of his face in shock, even though a minor incident, will never release me.

[MadisonProgressive]

3. That's chilling

Are you sure he wasn't being sarcastic?

[TorchTheWitch]

19. No question

In my business you hear it all... customers who are judges, CIA agents, brain surgeons, ex-pro sportsmen, even princes of obscure countries... all of which is bullshit. It's part of the "fantasy"... I pretend I'm someone they want me to be, and they pretend they're someone THEY want to be. You can almost always spot the ones that are full of it. My job is to pretend I believe it. Since we hear it all, we're always sceptical of what someone tells us about themselves even when the story is bland and probably true (and take a perverse pleasure in making the ones "in character" struggle on their "story").

We also, for our own safety, have to be able to be a good read on peoples' body language, facial expressions, tone of voice or change in tone... we're sensative to small nuances and what they mean. It only takes a split second for something bad to happen, and a bouncer isn't going to be able to get there in time so such things can be avoided. In many ways we have to be our own security guards, and know that the best defense is to leave a customer before something happens... and you can't do that without being very aware of small details most people wouldn't notice. I've found this to be incredibly useful outside of work.

But there was no question this guy was genuine. All of them (him and his buds) had that "cooked" look to the skin (color that seems to go through all 7 layers of the skin but isn't dark) that is not a tan anyone gets from salons or a couple of weeks vacation somewhere tropical... my SO had that same look to the skin when he came home (that took FOREVER to finally fade out... and now he has a sort of "tougher" look to his skin that I think may be permanent since he's been back a year now). This happened at the bar, and being a crowded Saturday night, at least a dozen people (both customers and dancers) witnessed it... and everyone's jaw hit the floor. Two customers that I know witnessed it were so stricken they got up and left the bar. A sudden air pocket developed around the guy and his buds... nobody wanted to be too close to them (and even though it was pretty much standing room only, which is typical for a Saturday night, that air pocket remained until they left).

I can only really say that if you had seen him... that LOOK... you would have known. They all had that same sort of looking inward or vacant look in the eye, odd lack of facial animation and general burned out appearance that my SO had when he came home. Even if I didn't have my SO or anyone else that I knew had just gotten back to use as a guide, I would have known this guy was genuine.

And I'm glad you didn't have to witness it... I wouldn't have wished that on anyone. Mere words are so inadequate to describe it. It was so... profound.

And so awful. :(


On Edit... I am so struggling for the right words

[MADem]

22. That thousand yard stare....

And when they're done with him, assuming he makes it through without being felled in battle, he gets to rejoin society, and we have to worry about him.

It's unfortunate, but there is a character type that is sought after in that line of work. The best candidates don't have much in the way of family, so they don't spend their time worrying about loved ones back home. Their unit becomes their family.

[Change has come]

189. Future cop no doubt. n/t

[Cant_wait_for_2008]

200. Do police departments screen thier cadets for this form of illness?

I cant imagine having someone with this kind of hate and murder in his eyes ever making a good police officer.

[Change has come]

214. Homeland Security perhaps? n/t

[katinmn]

233. I was thinking Homeland Security, or Blackwater

[Sawber1001]

29. Questionable

You may think he was genuine, but I seriously have my doubts. Most of these guys can smell folks who are against the war in Iraq and many on the far right will say stuff like that just to screw with and piss off those who they see as not supporting them.

I can say for sure since I didn't see how you asked, but folks in the military are very good at jumping into character and acting pissed off, excited, whatever. Anyone who has ever trained basics or conditioned younger troops for combat knows how to scream at one to make him/her realize the gravity of the situation and then turn around and smile at the beautiful day.

Just a possibility to consider. I've been in the military almost 20 years and haven't come across anyone who truly feels/acts like the guys you described.

[hexola]

34. Agree...that was the first thing I thought...

that he was just baiting you...

I used to work for a guy who was a seal in Nam...

He certainly was huge - I can only imagine how big he was back in the day...

He was haunted by what happened, and what he did. He carried a picture he took from a fellow he had to kill with his bare hands...he killed children as well. I saw very little of the gung-ho attitude...only the pain he had to live with. It wasnt pretty - usally only came out when intoxicated.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

66. It's only until much later that a guy in that line of work begins to....

...feel remorse/pain for what they've been ordered to do. Vietnam ended more than thirty years ago, and he's had plenty of time to think about what he did. I knew a lot of guys, Seals included, who came back from Vietnam and took quite a while to sort out their feelings and emotions...some never did.

I don't personally condone the indiscriminate killing of non-combatants, especially women and children. But, and this is not an excuse for him, the guy the OP met is still in the "kill them all" mindset, primarily because that's the only mindset you can have and hope to survive. They are taught that ANY hesitation, however slight, can result in the death or maiming of yourself and/or the people in your unit.

No...he wasn't baiting anyone...that's what he's become. He'll have to deal with that later in life, if he survives the "Forever War".

[cassiepriam]

118. Yes, the real extent of the damage comes to light years later. nt

[sweetheart]

120. rogue warrior

I read a book by a seal commander, Marchinko? Who was
imprisoned for writing the book. It described seal operations
in vague terms, and the mindset.. but he was more a commander,
not an op.

Whether or not he was acting, his performance was clearly
convincing, and left the military looking shameful for it.

I'm embarassed. The entire republican command should
resign in disgrace. They have dishonoured the framer's wish.

[cassiepriam]

42. Have you actually been in a war? Killed, maimed, tortured women and

children??

[poleepafrog]

53. 99.99% of our military DO NOT 'torture women and children'...

And it's terribly unfair of you to imply they do. I've been married to a Marine for 37 years--and I know the Corps. They are as dedicated, kinder, more protective, and patriotic a group of guys as you'd ever want to meet.

[cassiepriam]

64. I grew up in the military, I am not naive about what happens in war.

It is ugly, brutal and horrific. Ask some of the guys who fought in Viet Nam, and wait til the vets start coming back from Iraqi.

Your eyes will be opened, and it will be shocking.

Edited to add:

I lived in Southeast Asia during the Viet Nam War. I will spare you graphic details of what my childhood was like.

And I am sorry to have to talk reality to you, I know it is going to be very upsetting to hear how people you love, admire and respect have acted in barbaric ways. But that is the nature of war, and why it is so damaging.

My best to you, as it is not going to be an easy time for you and people you know.

[poleepafrog]

80. I know what war is.

And I know there is a difference between what happens in war--and men and women who deliberately torture others. 99.99% of our soldiers do not do that.

[cassiepriam]

86. The truth will come out, your numbers will most likely be wrong.

As civilians we have no way of knowing what is happening in Iraq, but based on what is coming out, it is not going to be pretty and it is going to be widespread.

[poleepafrog]

91. I will wait for the truth, rather than slander the innocent.

And I wouldn't be quick to assume anyone here is, or is not, a civilian, absent any other info.

[cassiepriam]

96. I know this is a hard thing for many to face, I have been there myself.

But many of us are going to have to pick up the shattered pieces of young lives as they come back from Iraq, and we must be prepared for what we are going to see. There is more than enough info coming out of Iraq, we cannot put our heads in the sand. '

This is one of the reasons BushCo is preventing the troops from rotating back home, they do not want the troops coming back home and talking. It is going to be bad and widespread.

PS It is not slander when it is the truth my friend.

[sojourner]

111. are you so sure that you know that much about THIS war?

i have also read/heard of other soldiers with that same mentality...as i recall these were reports from some of those who have come home and shared their sense of shock and horror at seeing their brethren behave like this, and do so with the complete support of the field command.

other wars have not been fought by young men who grew up blasting realistic-looking enemy troops to smitherines (?) on a video game. some are going to have a built-in sense of deja-vu related to the "fun" of clearing the monitor of every moving thing not clearly identified as "our side".

this last is my own deductive reasoning -- haven't heard anyone say there's a connection but my belief is that there damn sure is...the video game is a "practice" mechanism for doing the unthinkable.

[0rganism]

177. That's 99.99% of about 500,000 troops in the "rotation"

So even by your (optimistic, IMHO) estimate, there are ~50 of our soldiers there who WILL deliberately torture others, given the opportunity.

Look at how it changes if you're off by as little as 0.99% (that's less than 1% error, still a pretty dang good offhand call): 1% of 500,000 is 5,000. If that were the case, we'd have introduced thousands of very cruel people into an unstable civic situation as part of an occupying force. Now, chances are still good that most of them aren't in command positions and would be easily restrained by orders and reference to the UCMJ, but every once in a while, a "bad apple" might just rise to the top...

[Media_Lies_Daily]

71. You haven't seen any of those guys in combat, have you?...

...Even the nicest human being in the world will become an absolute animal in combat situations. 99.9% of American troops WILL follow their orders, even if it involves torturing women and children, because they've been taught that they REALLY don't want to disobey Uncle Sam.

I spent three years stationed at Camp Pendleton as a Naval Gunfire Liaison Officer back in the late 1970s, and I could tell this board some stories that I heard about Marines in Vietnam that would cause some to lose their breakfast. Rape, torture, and other assorted activities were the norm in a war that had been brutal long before Americans arrived in force in the mid-1960s.

So, let's can the flag-waving and apple pie speeches, because that's not the way it really is.

[poleepafrog]

82. Yes, I have.

And you are wrong.

[cassiepriam]

90. I am curious, what war where you in? And for how long?

What branch of the service and in what capacity?

[cassiepriam]

151. dupe nt

[Media_Lies_Daily]

133. Got any facts to back up your comments?

[LibertyorDeath]

211. Very well said

"let's can the flag-waving and apple pie speeches, because that's not the way it really is."

[caligirl]

174. This reminds me of a blond haired blue eyed guy I once saw

at Beaufort Marine Corps Air Station( F18 base near Parris Island) My husband wanted to plant some tomatoes and this guy was doing some gardening near by. He looked my way and I'll never forget the steel cold stare or the muscles. Had a distinctly Arian look to him. Sent shivers down my back.
The corps is a composite of types. The air wing was definitely easier to take than the grunts. It was still a dog and pony show with kool aid but at least the pilots were a little bit more independent thinking politically. But most wanted to get their wings and go fly the friendlier skies. It was a fun time those 22 years with the wing.

[mike_c]

196. tell that to all the murdered civilians in Fallujah...

...where the Corps was all tender and sensitive, what with the willie pete and all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

227. Most of the troops DO NOT do this

by the way... EVERY ORGANIZATION, and I mean EVERY one, has some folks in there that shouldn't. You get my drift, don't you?

[northzax]

268. but to say he was a SEAL?

the level of training those guys go through pretty much weeds out someone who would say this in public. I have no doubt that a regular soldier might say this (yes, I know SEALs are sailors) but I find it highly questionable that a SEAL would say this, especially in public. There is a serious amount of psych testing that is involved, and the weak (and this guy is weak, mentally, if he said this) wash out.

[poleepafrog]

52. Good post!

I agree with every word you said--you're right on!

[pecwae]

56. Could be.

In my 4 AD years in the Army I did run across this type. On Smoke Bomb Hill at Ft. Bragg, assigned to 1st SOCOM (early 80's, I) saw and heard more than I wanted to of and from the type the OP described. Most had served in Vietnam, but others had special assignments.

My hope is that help will be readily available for PTSD sufferers before they break.

[cassiepriam]

77. The military already has mobile teams of psychologists on the front lines

trying to prevent PTSD. (That is why so many shrinks have been called up.)

It is a nice thought, but all the psychologists in the world cannot prevent PTSD when you have the kind of sustained intense horrific trauma taking place.

[DrRang]

59. You may be right, but women who work as dancers in public

places tend to develop a pretty accurate, almost instinctive, take on anyone who is "off" enough to be dangerous. At least that was my experience moonlighting for years as a belly dancer. So maybe the guy was fantasizing stuff, but even that desire to mess with her head implies a fairly dangerous rage and frustration. Beside, guys usually assume dancers have grits for brains, which tends to make me think he wouldn't go to the trouble of so elaborately freaking out some "dumb chick."

[TahitiNut]

78. Maybe; maybe not. I think it's rare "back in the world."

When I was in Nam, there were a few guys I ran into who'd spout that hateful bravado. The very reason I'd run into them, though, was because they were burned out or close to it and stationed at Long Binh to recover. The guys who regularly manned the bunkers around the Generals' compound (an inner perimeter at Long Binh) were (iirc) 1stID troops nearly fried. I thought then, as well as now, that it was an attitude they adopted to insulate themselves from going total bonkers. Every guy deals with the insanity of combat in different ways - often by going "controlled nutso." I think of it as a kind of schizophrenia - creating a "somebody else" alter ego to defend their psychological perimeter. After they'd return from Nam "to the world," they'd almost always rebound, as much or more in horror at their own attitudes as at the insanity of what they saw and experienced. That "personality armor" would be disassembled or dissolve and the long road to recovery would begin.

I've met frauds, too - guys who never got to the "show" and put on an act. Those are the scarier ones, imho.

[Mr_Spock]

93. I have similar thoughts, though there is a marine who posts similar

heartless stuff at a site I go to about how awful the Iraqis are & how they have to kill them at a moments notice at times. There is some stuff he posted about Faluja that was extremely harsh & heartless. I have no doubt in my mind that that sort of killing is exactly what they had to and did do. It isn't normal for someone to express this so graphically unless they had detected that she was a liberal "type". OTOH, even saying such easily true statements to "put her off" as it were is still extremely sick and twisted in the most perverted way. Think about it - the man is a freak no matter whether you believe he was insane at the moment he spoke those words or not...

[lumberjack_jeff]

191. Let's assume you're right

Your experience is that "these guys" find it entertaining while stateside to act like psychopathic murderers.

Do you not find this almost as disturbing?

Personally, I'm inclined to believe the OP that they were genuine.

[mistertrickster]

217. Bullshit. Tim McVey was military. So was Lee Harvey Oswald.

So was Dennis Rader, the BTK murderer.

When your mission is kill, kill, kill, there are bound to be some sick fucks who are attracted to that aspect of it.

Quit kidding yourself.

[caligirl]

175. See Santorum there ? drop us a line if he ever comes in. n/t.

[Triana]

148. I doubt he was being sarcastic

They train these guys to be killing machines. Sometimes, they do a really good job.

:yoiks:

[saigon68]

4. Can you say Tim McVeigh

Oh I'm sorrrrry

I shouldn't disrespect the "Defenders of Freedom"

Wait til this guy becomes a cop (and you are a minority) (Ask Frank Jude Jr.)

[Disturbed]

6. Good writing.

This guy may have been shocking but there are thousands just like him. I met guys back from Nahm back in the day that were like this. They got a rush off of killing and torturing people.

[ClintonTyree]

13. Same here, and it was difficult for them to turn it off.....

some of them never did. We create these killing machines without any forethought as to their assimilation back into civilian life years ahead. Of course some people are hard-wired for this type of activity right from the get-go. Their up-bringing, childhood friends etc. make this the only course in life suitable for their "skills".
I would not want to be in the path of this guy's life. No good can come of it.

[iamjoy]

31. That's What I Thought

and I wonder if this is how many serial killers think.

[yy4me]

234. When I saw your post, I had to affirm your statement.

My sisters ex-husband was in Viet Nam, came back suffering from a war related syndrome. Had that blank stare and often far-away look. He was a bitter man. He became a cop. Several years after their marriage, the abuse started. Of course the divorce was not far behind. A few years later while speeding on his bike he wiped out against a tree. He was a troubled man. I know it was the war.
Same horrible stuff, different generation.

[Wetzelbill]

5. they lose their humanity

They start believing the people they are fighting are not human. I read a book when a former Delta and Ranger Sergeant was talking about how in Vietnam they used to throw phosphorus grenades at the Vietnamese people who would go down to a dump and rummage through garbage. The American soldiers would do it as if they were throwing snowballs at passing cars. They were so desensitized that human life, especially the human life of people from a different culture means nothing to them. Also, Special Forces, I have heard, have a racist tinge to them. Most are white, and through indoctrination they devalue other cultures as much more primitive and inhuman then us. Not all of them are like that, but the Kool-Aid drinkers are. I have met and known a lot of people in the military. You get many intelligent ones who aren't nutty like that, but you also get some people who are racist, have no sense of humanity and drink the Kool-Aid hardcore. It's called "Institutionalized Stupidity." It happens. I have a friend who is a good guy for the most part, but he learned some fucked up stuff in the military. He says some extremely racist things. I heard him go off and say some sick stuff a few times. Keep in mind, he and I are both American Indians, so he says racist things when he is even a minority himself. Indoctrination and dehumanization is some pretty sick stuff.

I once saw a video of some soldiers in Iraq. One of them walked up to a guy and just executed him, for no reason. It wasn't in the heat of the moment or anything like that. He just killed the guy. It was sick. Most soldiers are great people, but you do get some bad apples. Sounds like you ran into one. You're definitely right. Nobody gets off on that stuff unless they are pretty effed up. If you read accounts by Delta guys like Eric Haney or Stan Goff, they don't flip out like that. Nor do they get all gung ho. Those boys have been in some serious shit and don't talk about killing people like it was some cool game or anything. Those who do have got something seriously wrong with them. No doubt.

[noamnety]

36. Stan's Open Letter to the GIs in Iraq

is good reading, and may help reach an understanding of how people get to that point: http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/111703D.shtml

(reading one of his books currently)

[Wetzelbill]

39. yes! I read that

It is dead on. That's what I was thinking about when I was writing my reply.

Which book are you reading? I read "Hideous Dream" about the invasion of Haiti, it was great. Stan is a cool guy, he answers his e-mail too. :)

[noamnety]

95. Hideous Dream, yep

About 2/3 of the way through it, a few chapters a night for light bedtime reading. And yes, he answers his email, I learned that, too. :)

[Wetzelbill]

99. Land shark!

:)

That is one fascinating book. I think he does a great job explaining the situation in Haiti, with a lot of love and humanism too. I was a bit surprised at how good a writer he is too.

[noamnety]

106. LOL at the land shark!

How did you come to be reading that book? Do you know him from somewhere, or you just had a hankering for a book about Haiti?

[Wetzelbill]

109. I regularly read Truthout

I stumbled on the site while I was writing an article about PNAC, a few years ago. After Bush made his "Bring Em On" comment, Truthout ran an article by Stan in which he ripped Bush for his comments. So after that I regularly read Stan's columns. I read in his byline that he wrote a book and I am a student of foreign policy so I thought I might as well check it out. So, that's how I ended up reading it.

Yeah, that land shark stuff cracks me up. Stan's hilarious. :)

[noamnety]

115. If you're going to reference an article you wrote

shouldn't you provide a link? (hint hint)

[Wetzelbill]

121. no link it was for a magazine

:)The link doesn't work anymore.

[CrispyQ]

140. Thank you for sharing that link!!

There is so much truth in that letter! I'm copying it & sending a hardcopy to my pro-are mother.


This especially moved me:

My son who is over there now has a baby. We visit with our grandson every chance we get. He is eleven months old now. Lots of you have children, so you know how easy it is to really love them, and love them so hard you just know your entire world would collapse if anything happened to them. Iraqis feel that way about their babies, too. And they are not going to forget that the United States government was largely responsible for the deaths of half a million kids.


That's what I remind pro-war people of whenever I can -- the Iraqi's love their children every bit as much as you love yours.

[noamnety]

162. If that spoke to you

You might find this book review interesting: http://www.haiti-progres.com/2001/sm010328/XENG0328.htm

(the book Bill and I were talking about, obviously)

[sojourner]

114. dehumanizing the enemy is classic warfare tactic...the military has upped

the ante and now they're trying to get the guys to "enjoy" their job. i don't think it's working, which is why we are having so many ptsd cases from this war -- far many more by the reports i've heard, than came from 'nam (which was bad enough!)

edited for missing word

[TygrBright]

222. And thereby further degrading the overall effectiveness...

...of combat forces:

>>dehumanizing the enemy is classic warfare tactic...the military has upped the ante and now they're trying to get the guys to "enjoy" their job<<

That may be one of the straws that broke the camel's back in terms of getting those GOs to speak out. Any GO with a training command knows that the most effective combat units are not those who "enjoy" killing, etc. They must NOT enjoy it, they must NOT hesitate to do it if demanded, either one. An effective combat unit doesn't seek the death, pain, destruction, etc., of the enemy, an effective combat unit seeks the achievement of the objective stated by their CO: No enemy effectives OR noncombatants remaining at large within a stated perimeter. Control of such-and-such an area to enable transit of supplies. Elimination of all areas that could potentially form cover for a hostile attack. Whatever the objective might be, it might require the unit to kill, etc., and if so, the unit should do so without hesitation, in whatever way is most efficient (and legal, mostly...) But NOT "enjoy" it.

If they "enjoy" the killing, etc., they can too easily be distracted from what is demanded of them to function effectively as a unit, protect each other, and achieve their objective. Not to mention become (ultimately) a liability to the larger military in a world where the media is peering over their shoulders ever minute.

Unfortunately, training effective combat units takes TIME and a great deal of effort and skill. It's costly and it doesn't happen overnight and it requires that they train AS units, together, over time. And when you're trying to run a war on the cheap, you don't have the luxury of doing it "right," so you do it quick and dirty. Gung-ho kill-crazy nutjobs WILL take out enemy effectives (not to mention noncombatants,) so if all you're interested in is a body count, bring on the gunghos.

Torch, I am so, so, sorry that you had such an unnerving experience. And I think you have the right response. Feel sorry for that man. Once upon a time he had a mother, he had friends, he had a life, he knew what it was like to value humanity and be valued for his humanity. If/when he realizes what was ripped from him by that combat experience, he will face a kind of devastation that very few have the strength to survive and overcome. If he doesn't have that kind of strength (and it's not the muscles or the machismo,) he will never regain what he lost and in some ways that is still more tragic.

The worst casualties in war are sometimes the souls of the "victors."

sadly,
Bright

[sojourner]

236. dehumanizing the enemy...

you meant to direct your response

>>Torch, I am so, so, sorry that you had such an unnerving experience. And I think you have the right response. Feel sorry for that man. Once upon a time he had a mother, he had friends, he had a life, he knew what it was like to value humanity and be valued for his humanity. If/when he realizes what was ripped from him by that combat experience, he will face a kind of devastation that very few have the strength to survive and overcome. If he doesn't have that kind of strength (and it's not the muscles or the machismo,) he will never regain what he lost and in some ways that is still more tragic.

The worst casualties in war are sometimes the souls of the "victors."

sadly,
Bright<<

to Torch, not to sojourner.........but it was nice to read your well-informed post! :)

sojo

[DesEtoiles]

7. he may have been being sarcastic-bitterly reporting what he thinks wethink

[cassiepriam]

43. No, his symtpoms are classic PTSD.... nt

[KittyWampus]

100. And diagnosing someone from a DU post is different then Frist

telling us about Mrs. Terri Schiavo and her condition, how?

[cassiepriam]

123. Pretending that PTSD does not exist in the returning vets is not

going to make it go away. I understand that it is very painful for many to face this reality.

And there is a very big difference between this and Frist. Frist looks at a comatose woman and made strong statements, coming from a position of power.

The pathological behavior described in this thread is far different, you do not have to be a shrink to know that there is something very wrong with the behavior described.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

142. PTSD?

Or is this a clear case of "guilty conscience" ?

That which occurred in Fallujah was, simply put, a massacre.

[cassiepriam]

156. Returning vets saying killing the Iraqis like clubbing baby seals,

it is a massacre of indigenous people, like when the US Calvary killed the Indians.

The truth will be coming out, and as you can see from some
of the posts here on this thread, many are going to want to shoot
the messengers.

[sheelz]

194. I wonder if the Iraqis will have have PTSD...

[cassiepriam]

255. Yes very high rates of PTSD and worse, war torn countries

have very high rates of all kinds of mental illness,
according to the literature.

The rates of psychosis, mood disorders are already much higher than usual in Iraq. And the research shows that this kind of trauma and damage will impact at least the next three generations.

[sojourner]

112. i don't think it...didn't think it anyway until i started hearing reports

like this one. now i am utterly disgusted and ashamed of my country and it's so-called "liberation" of Iraq.

[TheMadMonk]

8. Deliberate dehumanisng of the troops for use at HOME?

I've often in the past few months wondered whether a part of the reasoning behind Abu Grahib, "Shake and Bake" assaults and other such apparent idiocies, is to "season" the troops so that they are less likely to freeze up, or refuse to act if called upon to emforce martial law and "police" US citizens.

[saigon68]

44. They are killing machines don't cross them

Don't disrespect them

[Imagevision]

137. Killing Machines? I agree, especially when your life is in jeperody 24/7

It's a tough call, especially when they've seen they've killed the parents in a car with 4 children in the backseat! While leaders who have had no military experience whatsoever and merely say; "your doing a heck of a job.

[theSaiGirl]

176. Exposure, normalization, training, conditioning = Preparation

The troops who refuse to collaborate in borderline or actual atrocities, get filtered out; the ones who remain are ready for further training.

When the time comes to use their newly acquired "skills" elsewhere, even domestically, they'll be ready.

They will just answer to FEMA or Homeland Sec., instead of the Pentagon.

[Wabbajack]

9. I hope he's the exception.....

really hope.

[xchrom]

10. in part you have to blame bush and rush, falwell, robertson,

savage and the rest of the crew that blathered hatered on and on before the war.

our soldiers were set up for this kind of inhuman reaction.

it should make all of us very angry because we will pay for bush's illegal war for long, long years after it's ''over''.

[TheCowsCameHome]

24. The hatemongers and cowards you mention never see this close up -

only from behind their microphones

[xchrom]

70. they egged on t.mcveigh. so to speak.

i have to believe that to a certain extent -- oklahoma city was and is -- a message to liberal/progressives in this country.

[Jose Diablo]

81. I've wondered about if McVeigh was encouraged to do what he did

It seems like the government was wasting no time to execute him, you could say even with much haste. And the reports of the existence of a certain 'John Doe' that helped McVeigh along. With McVeigh dead, 'John' will not be identified.

Could it be, that 'John Doe' was an ATF undercover agent? An agent provocateur, and the bombing helped the 'agenda' along, thus McVeigh was allowed to do what he did. We will never know now, because dead men tell no tales.

:tinfoilhat:

[xchrom]

87. i have simply always believed that t. mcveigh didn't mishear

all the hate that emanates from the right for the government -- and people like ''liberals'', ''welfare queens'', etc.

mcveigh acted on what he heard -- and for my money -- he was supposed to -- it was a message.

[Jose Diablo]

116. And today, with Bu$h in the drivers seat

Bu$h being rightwing, he reinforces the antigovernment view. That the government cannot do anything correctly.

All this is an attack on the idea that the people should turn to the government to institute policies that better the human condition.

When viewed from the perspective of an agenda to destroy the publics trust in the government to do good for the people, then everything that has happened makes perfect sense.

Bu$h is antigovernment, and like a termite, he's eating away at the government's foundation. The idea that governments are instituted by the people, for the people. This is the rightwing agenda, to propagate the idea that the government is an unneeded parasite, rather than the idea that governments are the instrument that people use for their betterment.

But we are way off topic here.

[loudsue]

186. This is spot on, diablo. Governments are NECESSARY for any

country. Without them, you have no laws, so you have lawlessness. Without a government, people cannot pool their money effectively for the benefit of the whole group, so you end up with "faith based" special interests, benefitting their pals, and just the groups that look like them.

People need to understand how important governments are, and a GOOD government is a godsend to the people of a country who live there. If only there was a way to stop future government corruption before it was allowed to take root and become chronic, like it is in the united corporate states of america.

I'm UP with good government, which is why it's time for a revolution in the U.S., much like the revolution we had that ESTABLISHED this country in the first place. We need to start over.

:kick::kick::kick:

[sojourner]

237. you are so very correct ... we will be paying for this for a long while...

one can only hope that the monsters who stirred up this pot of devil's brew get their full measure of it at the end. only what they deserve, mind you, not a whit more.

[cantstandbush]

11. Juust think, they will all be back here to live among us...maybe as police

We train the killers not to care and to kill. Then we wonder why there is police brutality and so much other inhumanity among us. These beasts come home to train their children to hate and their sons to love guns and killing. We are all going down. In less than a decade i predict that we all will be living in armed neighborhoods and shooting at anyone who doesn't look familiar.

[TAPat]

21. Some anecdotal evidence...

There has been an increase in the number of domestic murder/suicides in my neck of the woods. I don't pay much attention to the local news (St. Louis), but it seems like every other time they are reporting on this type of incident. Every time I wonder if the guy was a recently returned vet, especially when the report says there was no history of domestic violence, etc.
According to my very rough number crunching about 35% of these incidents have connections to the wars - let's not forget Afganistan...
As my partner always says: I don't want one of those guys living in my neighborhood!

[CrispyQ]

132. I think that is very likely.

There was a great sci-fi book written by Octavia Butler where that was the case. The people formed neighborhood enclaves & members were all trained & participated in neighborhood security. The main character is a young woman & her enclave has mandatory gun training.

While reading it I felt I was looking at our future.

[Jose Diablo]

12. For a voice like thunder

Oh for a voice like thunder
And a tongue to drown the throat of war!
When the senses are shaken,
And the soul is driven to madness,
Who can stand?
When the souls of the oppressed fight in the troubled air that rages,
Who can stand?

When Sin claps his broad wings over the battle,
And sails rejoicing in the flood of Death;
When souls are torn to everlasting fire,
And fiends of hell rejoice upon the slain,
Who can stand?

Who hath caused this?
Who can answer at the throne of God?
The Kings and Nobles of the Land have done it!
Hear it not, Heaven, thy Ministers have done it!

--William Blake

[B Calm]

14. Good post!

[TheBaldyMan]

15. That's a heartbreaking story, could you have a little bit of

sympathy for the guy because he has a screw loose ?

He won't be alone and there will probably be a lot of cases of PTSD coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan. When time works on them and they wake up to the enormity of the acts they have committed, a lot of anger and guilt will need some kind of outlet. Unfortunately with a lot of machismo worshipping types they blow their brains out rather than seek help.

It isn't natural for human beings to kill one another, pretty much eveyone in the armed forces in the combat arms has to be brainwashed to turn them into a killer. This stores up problems for the future when these guys finally leave the services. They have been conditioned to be killers but haven't had any deprogramming to turn them back into civilians.

I am not saying that what he did was in any way right. His actions will come back to haunt him. I just want to say that that guy and the ones like him need a psychic depressurisation chamber rather than a reaction of disgust from the rest of us.

[TorchTheWitch]

35. My initial reaction was disgust

And shock. Although it did last for a few hours. But it was when I was driving home that the realization came to me that this guy was brutally used and will pay the rest of his life for this. At this point, I feel pity for him. I can't excuse what he did, but I don't blame him for it. They made him this way. He was probably pretty normal before, but maybe with certain "he man" characteristics and probably not much of a deep thinker that made him a prime candidate and more easily twisted in the head than others with a stronger constitution.

They made him a killing machine and they don't want to turn him off.

[CrispyQ]

134. ...

"They made him a killing machine and they don't want to turn him off."


That is the most terrifying thing about your story.

[sojourner]

119. hold up -- just because we express disgust (natural first reaction)

does not mean that we can't also hold these broken, maybe even misled, fellas in our compassionate hearts! i'd worry about a person who didn't express disgust at hearing such vile speech (unless that person is, for instance, a trained professional with some degree of trained detachment) --- just sayin'........

peace.

[skip fox]

16. "like looking at the face of God"

Hmm.

[Dunvegan]

30. Or looking at that "bright fallen angel"...

...named after his brillant blinding light: Lucifer.

Outstanding post...Thank you for your essay, TorchTheWitch.

And, thank you for your reportage and your humanity.

[TorchTheWitch]

46. I couldn't think of the right word

reverance maybe? it was power and awe and... it makes me think of expressions I've seen in paintings with a religious theme but without the tranquility.

[skip fox]

58. I know it sounds callous, and this is why I didn't say it at first, but

this account contains some very interesting writing. I don't mean to minimize what you've been through, but I'm a writer and in love with fine writing. There were places in this account which had a particular and interesting force which was perfectly set amid the verbs, phrases, nouns and ideas, as well as subject. Maybe no big thing, as they say, maybe not.

[TorchTheWitch]

124. You think so?

One of my brothers always says that I write like I talk... I never really understood what he meant by that.

I really struggled writing this because I hate being misunderstood. All my life I've found it profoundly frustrating to not be able to get across to someone what I mean, so I've worked on it. Same with when I relate an experience in person. Someone getting the jist of what I'm saying is never good enough for me... I have this odd need to express myself in away that makes someone feel what I'm feeling about whatever experience I'm relating. I tend to repeat myself a lot but with different words or phrasing, (which I find very embarrassing and mentally kick myself when I do it) just to make sure I've been understood.

A lot of people have told me I should get into public speaking... and they're clearly crazy because although I have no problem whatsoever dancing naked in front of a large group of strangers or even crawling all over them naked, but public SPEAKING? NEVER! I just know I'd barf or pass out or both... the very idea makes me quesey. I'd be a terrible public speaker... all the pauses and repeating myself... UGH.

I've always read an awful lot because I have a passion for the written word (unless it's boring), but I could never be a writer... it's just too much of a struggle for me, and I'd never be satisfied with what I wrote. Besides, I'm convinced I'm not good at it. I'd end up one of those writers that agonizes over every word and then locks it up in a closet for fear anyone may read it.

I'm actually very surprised that you think my OP was well written. I think it's kind of babbling and disjointed in a lot of places, and I almost deleted it with the idea that I'd try again later. I wrote it almost as soon as I got home because I had a need to talk about it. I thought that my feelings about it were still going around in circles too much and in writing it later after I'd pondered more about it it would make more sense.

You know... I've been here a long time but post very little, and I always thought that was just because I like to read stuff a whole lot more than say stuff. Now I'm wondering if my little phobia of saying something just right is part of it. I even struggle over posts that are just a line or two. And I think I'll not think too much on this before I start convincing myself I've got a serious problem phobia going on. I'm beginning to creep myself out here.

[Joe Chi Minh]

164. Often a passionate person "speaking from the heart" will write

with a sublime perfection. Generally, more interestingly, of course, if they are of a reflective nature.

[SPKrazy]

169. Maybe You Could Speak

at a nudist colony?

[Joe Chi Minh]

182. Hey, there's passion and passion, Southpaw, but old and

decrepid as I am, I dare say my beady eyes would be over-active there. The wrong kind of passion, methinks.

Though when I think of how we are as youngsters, and what we're all bombarded with today, I don't know how the young lads today manage to think of anything else.

[skip fox]

232. Yes, I think so. I've taken into account the "passionate" state of the

following post, and still hear in the phrasing something interesting. Maybe the struggle to get it right, who knows? Yet it's there. (I teach creative writing to undergrads and grad students and so have developed an ear, I guess.)

[DemonFighterLives]

246. Your posting is great - Don't worry

Just write it and press Post!
It'll be fine!
:dem:

[Lisa]

257. that was the first thing I was thinking, too

You can really write! (And I've been teaching at a university for more than a decade, so I've met lots of people who THINK they can express themselves -- and you are way better than most of them.)

By the way, when you said the man looke like he was enraptured by God -- I know you mentioned earlier that you were uncertain whether it was the right description, but it sounds very true to me. There are historical accounts, as far back as the first Crusade, where soldiers had convinced themselves, or been brainwashed, into thinking they were doing "holy work". And they had weird peaceful smiles -- some of them even sang! -- as they killed their victims. In the case of the Crusaders, they had been immersed in brutality, and in a strange new land -- plus the preachers had told them that they would be absolved of all their sins, just because of who they were and what they were doing.

I've been told that suicide bombers, prior to going on their missions, have a similar sense of intense calm about them. Creepy to think that they, and that man, have so much in common.

[0rganism]

181. Maybe it's a sense of being "as a god", wielding powers of life and death

These men are caught up in geopolitical forces far beyond their comprehension, parts of a vast and inexorable war machine on the move, complete with predetermined objectives and ideology, driven by the spirit of our times. The thing itself is huge, but extends tendrils of belonging into those involved. I wouldn't be surprised if portions of the Wermacht, especially Waffen SS, felt the same way in 1940.

[ClintonTyree]

17. It takes a "special" type of person....

to enter into a force such as the Seals. In my opinion, they're sado-masochists who get off on pain. Either the pain they must endure during their training and missions, or the pain they dispense during those missions. It's their drug, the only way to fill that gap in their psyche making them whole. I don't think "god, honor and country" really enter into it all that much, though it's a convenient excuse for their reprehensible actions. I'm sure there are a few who do feel it's all about service to their country, but I think they're a minority. The rest are hard-wired psychopaths from conception or from their life experiences.
I feel sorry for these people as well, but I give them a W-I-D-E berth because turning off their sado-masochist tendencies isn't an easy thing to do. They have to want to change and most, unfortunately, don't.

[Jose Diablo]

20. Nature or nurture?

The big question.

If it's nature, then stopping the propagation of the seed is the only way to stop war.

If it's nurture, then the culture is to be blamed and changing the culture is the way to salvage the world. To make a better future.

Is it 'determinism' that shapes the future. Or is it 'free-will', we make the future that determines the future. One way absolves mankind of all guilt, they are after all, pre-wired to be what they are. The other way says they are guilty and are deserving of eternal torment in the hell they have created.

What is the truth?

Edit: Jose thinks infants are blank sheets and can become whatever we make them into. It's environment that make us into whatever we become. There is hope for a better world. Even the 'broken soul' the OP observed, can be redeemed.

For if I didn't believe that social programs could work, to make a better future, why would I be a Democrat?

[CrispyQ]

139. I think you would enjoy Thom Hartmann's

"The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight"

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1400051576/sr=8-1/qid=1145204678/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-5792740-7358366?%5Fencoding=UTF8


Also, I agree about the blank sheets & being able to reclaim broken people like the soldier in the OP.

[Jose Diablo]

144. Thanks, I will read the book

I read the reviews at amazon and was reminded of MLK's "Beyond Vietnam" speech, about our materialism as the basic core problem we face as a people. I'd add a link to the speech, but I've seen and respected your previous posts, so I know you know how to Google.

Anyway, thanks for putting a good read in front of me.

[Jane Austin]

68. But, but, but . . . Katie Couric says

"Navy Seals ROCK!"

[annabanana]

18. a seriously damaged human being....

I think he cannot integrate his experiences at all into who he thinks he is. So he shuts off all sensation (hence no joy) and becomes "affectless".

Guys who came back from "Nam like this, and never got help, the remainder of their lives was sad indeed.

[TheCowsCameHome]

23. What a horrible tale - too bad it can't be seen by all Americans

We reap what we sow......................

[Bushfire]

25. n/t

:hug:

[iconoclastic cat]

26. Wow.

That's amazing. And totally believeable.

By the way, TorchTW, you should seriously consider writing this and trying to publish it. You have a fantastic writer's voice. I bet Salon would publish it.

[Dunvegan]

33. I agree that you should submit this as an article, TorchTheWitch.

iconoclastic cat is right.

[MUAD_DIB]

27. Thoughts...

Would pezdent monkeynuts ever use these kind of guys against the American people?

I wouldn't doubt it for a secon.


Think of all the great training that this guy is getting at losing any shred of conscience.

Iraqi? American? Would it make any difference to him who he is snuffing?

[loudsue]

190. The bush administration HAS used this kind of guy agains the American

people...

remember Katrina? Those rent-a-soldier mercenaries who kept those poor folks trapped on a bridge without food or water or toilets, in the hot sun, for two days at gunpoint? Men, women, and children, suffering terribly, and not even knowing if the rest of their family was even ALIVE?

There were even more atrocious deeds perpetrated by the privatized army during Katrina, and this was NOT an "exception" to the rule of this administration.

There are dangerous, blood-thirsty, perverted thugs running our government, and I wish there was some sanity that could take hold and call this spade a spade, so the less analytical members of our citizenry could finally begin to see what has gone wrong here.

:kick:

[sojourner]

238. good point! we need to remember who is running this country and what

depths they are willing to go to in pursuit of their mad schemes.

[sojourner]

239. remember the idea some had that NO was a test run? just dawned on me that

what seemed like plain old nasty evil is perhaps really truly evil evil. (shudder)

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gman]

41. I'd cut her some slack on the hypocrisy thing because...

The post you linked to is timed at Fri Apr-14-06 01:13 AM.

She starts out this one with the words "I worked Saturday night...", posting this on Sunday morning. Personally, I think she ran into a person she never imagined existed.

No hypocrisy here. TorchTheWitch just never knew such a person existed. And, no where in her post this morning did she fault him for what he did for a living. She seems more shocked at the way he is now.

[hexola]

47. I'll cut her some slack...it was inappropriate to question him...

Of course I have only her report to go on...but I think the fact that he was in a club, points to the notion that he was there to "get away from it all." Do you think he wanted to talk about the war at all in the middle of his night out??? Asking an Iraq vet if it "must have been difficult" is like asking someone who just cut off a finger..."Does it hurt?" Dont be suprised if you get a cynical response.

I think her question was highly inappropriate...

[KittyWampus]

102. It also leaves open the POSSIBLITY that the guy was acting

for whatever reason.

[TorchTheWitch]

129. I'd disagree - HE brought it up

He brought it up, which means HE wants to talk about it. Customers don't freely make comments about things they don't want to talk about (when's the last time you brought up a subject you didn't want to talk about?). You would have to have been a dancer or know one to understand that most customers come in not just because they want to have a good time but because they want a sympathetic ear. It's my JOB to listen and interject comments in conversation that encourage the customer to talk about subjects HE brings up... because obviously if he brings it up it's him that wants to talk about it.

I'm VERY uncomfortable discussing the war with Iraq vets because I have very strong opinions about it that most of the time they don't share. It's financial suicide to bang heads with customers on their opinions especially when it comes to opinions they feel strongly about and particularly when it's how they earn their paycheck.

My job is to listen to things I don't always want to hear, discuss things I don't always want to discuss, believe that everything they say is right even when I know it's absolutely wrong, and ADMIRE them for it regardless if the subject is something that makes my stomach flip over. I always have the option to simply excuse myself and walk away, but doing so is cutting a hole in my own pocket. Needless to say, there are many many times that I simply HAVE to walk away and accept that I'm going to leave work with less money because of it (and sometimes it's A LOT of money). This is exactly one of the biggest reasons this job is so difficult and often emotionally draining and why only the strong survive and make bank.

[Maddy McCall]

193. Hear, hear.

Couldn't agree with you more.

[Maddy McCall]

32. You stuck your nose where it didn't belong.

You got what you asked for. And more.

You are not one of them; you will never be one of them; and since you are not one of them, they will never treat you with honesty and forthrightness.

Did you for a moment consider that the guy MIGHT have been yanking your chain, because he didn't appreciate you prying and projecting on him?

I've worked with PTSD veterans from Vietnam...the whole story in the OP just seems--well--a little contrived or embellished.

[sheelz]

76. That's harsh...

for asking a simple question. He could of said, "It's none of your business" or "I'd rather not discuss this now" etc?

She didn't ask for this! :crazy:

[Mr_Spock]

103. I think you're being awfully harsh

If the war makes people anti-social sociopaths, then too bad. I have no sympathy.

"You are not one of them" :eyes: Yeah, trained murderers. :eyes: That's a very narrow view.

[OzarkDem]

105. So you think he was exaggerating?

Was he just saying it for affect or was there a grain of honesty? Just wondering.

[mistertrickster]

219. Who you gonna believe, some really contrived excuse or your own

ears?

The guy said what he said. He must have meant it on some level or he wouldn't have been able to even think of it . . .

[TorchTheWitch]

221. The Art of Strip Club Conversations 101...

Let me introduce you to the wonderful world of The Art of Strip Club Conversations 101...

You approach someone and greet them. If they ignore you, they don't want to talk to you, and you move on.

If they respond to your greeting, then whoopie, they aren't a totally rude asshole, and you proceed to a question that invites conversation... usually "how are you?" or something similar.

If they want to engage you in conversation, it's often with polite small talk first... "Are you having a good time?" "What brings you in tonight?", etc... questions that open the door for them to talk about whatever it is they might want to talk about. This is the part where what is exchanged in the small talk will indicate whether or not they want to continue talking to you or not. If they don't, the small talk quickly goes nowhere, and you close the conversation with a "nice to have met you, have a good time tonight" and excuse yourself because there's no money to be made from that guy for you.

If they bring up a topic of conversation that would indicate they have an interest in your sticking around and talking with them, they will. They will either ask you questions about yourself or mention something about themselves or mention something that is of interest to them. This is the part where they've indicated what they want to talk about.

To be clear...
1. Asks questions about me = wants to talk about me
2. Mentions something of interest to him = wants to talk about that particular something of interest to him
3. Mentions something about himself = wants to talk about that particular something about himself

Got that? Lovely. You win a cookie (but you won't get it from me because if I ever have sole control of a cookie, it's mine, I'm eating it, and that's that).

Now we can get to the point of the exercise...

I would not have known this guy was a SEAL who just got back from Iraq if he hadn't said so (I kid you not... I didn't absorb that information through the poors of my skin or by reading french fry crumbs in beer foam as though they were tea leaves). The fact that he said so means one of two things...

1. He's a SEAL just returned from Iraq because he wants the conversation to go that way, or
2. He's pretending to be a SEAL just returned from Iraq because he wants the conversation to go that way.

EITHER WAY he's indicated by mentioning he's a SEAL just returned from Iraq because he wants the conversation to go that way. At that point, since it is my job to make him think I'm interested in what HE has indicated he wants to talk about I HAVE to ask him something about it. If I were to just make a comment that doesn't invite response, it indicates to him that I don't give a crap what he wants to talk about, and I just pretty much killed the possibility of making any money off of this guy. Sometimes this can be survived but it takes too much time... time's a wasting, and I don't make money wasting time.

Since I don't like to talk about the war with customers, whatever question I ask is designed to hopefully steer him away from a topic that I've found is not condusive to me making money since I have a lot of difficulty traveling through the mine-field of a topic that gets my fur up. Yep, we steer conversations. If we didn't they'd yammer all night, and we'd never see any greenbacks (and we don't work for free contrary to what some customers may believe). So I will ask him a tame question with a trigger word... "I guess you're happy to be back home now, huh?" The trigger word is HOME, and will hopefully steer him out of Iraq back HOME, and hopefully off the war altogether into a different topic with a series of more deliberate questions/comments designed to go where I want the conversation to go. He may not respond to the trigger, which indicates he REALLY wants the topic to stay where he first indicated he wanted it. At that point, he is trying to steer the conversation although he probably has no idea that he is.

Customers think I'm just talking with them... I'm not. Everything I say, whether it's a question or a comment, whether or not I elaborate, what my body language is doing is all me just trying to steer the conversation to the point where his wallet comes out without wasting too much of my time. I have a limited amount of time to make as much money as I can from customers, and there's a clock in my head that tells me at what point to steer harder to get a "Yes" and have the wallet come out before the clock in my head runs out and at what point to give up and move on.

He brought out the specific Fallujah topic "bomb", and that's where I got stuck. I did my best to try to defuse it with a comment rather than a question to hopefully make it more difficult for him to steer off in that direction and retake control of the conversation. My mistake was not realizing the trigger word "difficult" would have the impact on him that it did. Perhaps because of my knowledge of nastiness of some sort going down in Fallujah and my strong feeling about the war tripped me up and made me use a comment that turned out to be a poor choice to retake control of the conversation. Maybe the sympathy that I felt for him having been in Iraq got in the way... I don't know. I assumed because he so obviously wanted to talk about his being in Iraq that he was looking for some bit of sympathy and understanding since so often customers are looking for just that particularly the Iraq and Afganistan war vets.

Keep in mind that I've talked with quite a few genuine Iraq or Afganistan war vets at work. There are scads of them in this area, and they often come into the strip clubs specifically looking for some form of sympathy and understanding since men know to come to the strip clubs for that. I would imagine the vets even target the strip clubs because of the safety of being anonomous. You can cry all over my shoulder in the club and not have to worry about how that may impact your life because I'm not a part of your life outside the club.

I've said before that I try to avoid talk of the war because I find it to be a conversational mine-field... and in this case, I stepped on a mine that tops the list of Most Explosive Loss of Conversation Control.

Now, this paricular statement I just have to respond to because it's just... wow...

You are not one of them; you will never be one of them; and since you are not one of them, they will never treat you with honesty and forthrightness.

And I give a shit, why? This is my JOB. I work to make money, not friends. I have exactly zero desire to be "one of them". Maybe you should tell them that. Because all night long I have customers hitting me up for dates, asking me to dinner, wanting my phone number, etc. It's probably the most irritating aspect of this job... we all have customers that persist with this over and over again sometimes for years. It is THEM that have some totally screwed up notion we want to be picked up, we're shopping for a date, looking for Mr. Right or we're hookers in disguise.

Do I give a crap whether they treat me with honesty and forthrightness? Are you serious? Has it somehow escaped you that we are not honest and forthright with THEM? We have fake names, fake identities, even fake breasts (although a lot of us with decent real ones haven't gone the implant route, but that's a whole other story). Fake, fake, fake, it's ALL fake. They KNOW it's fake. They come and spend money because they want to be told what they want to hear. They want to feel attractive when they aren't, they want to feel that you desire them when you don't, they want to feel like they're witty and interesting and fun and the absolute center of your universe when they aren't. That's what this job is all about... fantasy.

For heaven's sake, what in the world do you think the alternate identities customers come up with are for? It's FANTASY... I pretend to be someone they want me to be to their someone they want to be because that's my job, and they come in expecting that I'll do my job (I kid you not... at work I'm expected to work... wow, who would have thought?). Guess what happens when you're actually honest and forthright with a customer... you piss him off for ruining his fantasy about you and thus you will make not dollar one from him. Not very business minded that.

Even though we aren't honest and forthright with customers, very often (maybe even most of the time) they ARE honest and forthright with us because there is a huge market of customers that come in because they're looking to unload their troubles. For their purposes, they aren't looking for someone in paticular - any dancer will usually suffice. Where they are forthright and honest with us, we aren't with them because they are specifically looking for sympathy and understanding or just someone to listen to them. They DON'T want us to be honest and forthright with them because that's not what they're looking for and not what they're paying for because they know if we were honest and forthright we'd tell them we aren't interested. It doesn't matter that they know we're faking it because our pretending makes them feel better, and that's all that matters to them.

Are there customers that think we are honest and forthright? You bet. Those are the ones that don't spend any money on you because they figure that what they believe our fake desire and fake interest and fake placing them in the center of our universe is real means they have no reason to pay us (why should they pay us when they believe that the sole reason we work is to bask in their glorious light?). They're wallpaper... they may get a polite smile or wave, but they get bypassed because they aren't worth our time. No money? Nice-to-see-you-See-ya-Bye.

Are there some customers that we are honest and forthright with about some things? You bet. A fake identity is easier to make come off realisticly when some aspects of your real self are incorporated. These are mostly stories of actual events and are chosen specifically to project humor or interest or corroboration of one of their stories or an explaination of why you can't be available to them on a certain day/time, etc.... the day the toilet broke, the time you almost hit a dog on the way to the mall, the incident where you twisted your ankle on the stairs... there are endless true stories, but they're told for a purpose which always goes back to the money.

Why do you think we talk to these people at all? If there was any real money to be made in stage tips we wouldn't say boo to any of these people. Stage tips are for paying the DJ, house fee and house mom, and anything left over is just extra padding. The real money is made when you sell dances and VIP time. To do that you have to spend your time interacting with the customers. The stage is pretty much an advertising and paying your fees tool.

The bottom line is ALWAYS the money... I would think that would go without saying, but apparently I was wrong.

As for whether or not he was yanking my chain... nope. For an explanation of why I firmly believe that other than the fact I was there and a party in the conversation, see a post I made in this thread somewhere at the very top (can't remember which number, and I'm not going to bother to look since I've already spent far too much time on this response then your snarkiness deserved... which pretty much comes out to all of the time I've spent on this response).

Congratulations. You now know more about this business than most of the dancers I work with. Now maybe if you read it, and other people read it maybe eventually we'll get to a point on this forum where I don't have to continually come across ridiculous and snarky posts on the subject of my job from people who have no bleeding clue what the hell they're talking about.

You know what? I have no idea what you do for a living... I don't even know whether or not you do anything for a living, but for the sake of argument, let's say you do. Whatever it is you do for a living if it's something I have no personal experience doing or even any informed knowledge of I'd be the very last person to make any kind of comments about how your job is done... and there is no way in hell I'd be caught dead making those comments if they're deragatory, and most especially personally derogatory. How about you ponder that one a bit and see if you can figure out what you accomplished with your post and how it reflects on you.

But I won't hold my breath.

[rug]

235. Well done!

:applause:

[Karenina]

240. Slam.Dunk!

:applause:

[XOKCowboy]

249. Very Well Said

and thank you for the post. It's provided a lot of insight for me.

[linazelle]

262. Whomp there it is! nt

[femmedem]

37. "looked away from me, got visibly tense and said...

Difficult? Hell no! It was awesome!"

His looking away says to me that he's already full of self-loathing because in Iraq, he learned that he loves to kill, that it was the biggest adrenaline rush he's ever experienced. And that awful self-knowledge is, I think, a big part of what makes so many veterans feel completely lost and isolated when they come home.

There's a Vietnam War era play, "Medal of Honor Rag", that talks about a real-life MOH winner who was so overcome with horror over the actions for which he won his medal that he committed suicide-by-cop. That play is overdue for some re-staging.

When I was a dancer, I met a young Iranian man--at least that's where he told me he was from--who spoke so eloquently about what the U.S. was doing in the Middle East, and elsewhere. He was surprised at my knowledge--he hadn't met many Americans who knew much about the effects of our foreign policy. (Not that I'm an expert.) He said he was part of a group of people who were going to shock the hell out of the United States, that he was dedicating his life to this battle. He was so pure in his desire to do what he thought was right, and at the same time so utterly, utterly chilling. And then there was this incredibly human element: he thought he didn't have anything else to live for, because his parents wouldn't allow him to marry the woman he loved. This was all sometime in 1999 or maybe 2000. You can be sure I remembered him on Sept. 11.

In my experience, many of the men who came into strip clubs didn't so much want to look at women as much as they wanted to be known. It's like a confessional, isn't it? Very, very rarely will that soldier reveal to a civilian the wanton, brutal killing he learned to love in Iraq.

[TorchTheWitch]

62. You are so right!

In my experience, many of the men who came into strip clubs didn't so much want to look at women as much as they wanted to be known. It's like a confessional, isn't it? Very, very rarely will that soldier reveal to a civilian the wanton, brutal killing he learned to love in Iraq.

It's even more so then the bartender as shrink thing. My God, the things that complete strangers have unloaded on me! Sometimes I think I should have a license to practice psychiatry in this business. But we offer what they know shrinks don't provide... sympathy and understanding (even if it's fake)... which is really what they're looking for.

[nashville_brook]

79. men... strip clubs... wanting to be 'known'

that they might be more "honest" about this aspect of their current mind state BECAUSE they are in a kind of "male sanctuary." i bet there's few places they can speak this -- not that it was well-received at your strip club -- but obviously, that didn't matter to them. not yet. it will eventually eat their soul.

i think there's something really unique (duh) about the sociology of strip clubs. it's where the primitive male 'mind' can express itself (if he's not fronting). i bet you've heard all sorts of amazing stories from clients. it IS a confessional -- and a kind of confessional that exists few places anymore. not to get all camile paglia on you, but i would take what they said as 'a truth' of sorts. it's not going to be their 'forever truth.' eventually it will knock them off their feet the same way they did to their victims (the 'enemy,' whatever).

OP -- you have an amazing 'voice.' this is such an incredible observation. the strip club as a field for observing male behavior is a book just waiting to be written.

on another note -- i lived near a vet hospital (Mountain Home) for many years in the 80s -- college and after. Vietnam vets who were at least a decade out of service. my mother-in-law was a nurse on the psych ward at the VA. many of the scenesters in town were vets. many of my friends were vets -- special forces vets -- guys who were sent in groups of two or three to live off of bugs in the jungle, and kill people with their bare hands. MANY nights i spent listening to their war stories and this is what i came away with... they are LUCKY if they emerge from the experience broken enough to live in society. if they try to remain "unbroken" (who-HA) they go batshit crazy. it's the ones who walk thru the valley of death and come out emotionally 'weaker' who survive. most just drink themselves to death.

[KittyWampus]

104. Actually, when you're about to LIE you usually look away.

[Nordmadr]

38. Not knocking the story, and many of the points I read here are valid.

I just wanted to point out the very real possibility that this man was not actually a SEAL. It would not be unheard of for men to make up b.s. in order to sound all impressive.

I suggest this only because I spent 4 years in the Navy, and tried myself to get into the Explosive Ordinance Disposal program. While I did not succeed in that effort, I had the occassion to meeet a few folks here and there that were SEALS, as well as to have had a few friends in the training program. SEALS are almost never the really huge shit brickhouse built kind of guys. They tend to be "wiry" muscular as aerobic fitness is often more efficient and important than mass.

Either way this man is not right in the head; whether he is truthful, or imaginatively thought that kind of truth would appeal to you.

On edit, I would also like to agree with the thought process of a soldier put forth by another poster. He could be who he says, but just jerking your chain. Now I HAVE seen that kind of attitude in some SEALS.


Olafr

[HeeBGBz]

63. My brother-in-law wrote a book about Navy SEAL imposters

This guy may have been one and maybe not. For some reason people just love to pretend they are SEALS in order to get some recognition and/or special benefits.

http://moosecreekforge.com/special.html

[Nordmadr]

74. The pictures on that site back up what I said about builds too.

No hulksters there. The bigger guys tend to break down during the training, injuries, etc.

Might have to buy that book. :)

Olafr

[HeeBGBz]

85. Real SEALS tend not to be braggarts about mission specifics to civilians

The phoney ones play up the tall tales.

[driver8]

224. There used to be a website about "phoney SEALS" -- it was

very interesting how a group of ex-SEALS exposed these guys.

One of the things one of the SEALS said on that website was that if a guy ever tells you he was a SEAL, or tells you what Team he was with, then he is probably not a SEAL. Most of the SEALS will not talk about the job or about themselves.

He also said that if a guy tells you he is/was a SEAL, ask him what BUDS class he was in and who his swim buddy was. That info should pop out of him without thinking. If someone has to think about it, he is lying.

Your brother-in-law's book sounds fascinating, by the way.

[Marr]

155. That's the truth.

I knew a few SEALS, and several Green Berets. They were not bulky or 'bulldog-like' at all. Typically slender, but very well conditioned.

They were also- almost to a man- very reserved. The only one I ever saw openly bragging about his toughness was the *only* one that had never seen combat. The guys from Vietnam and such were very private about it, and though they'd offer just about any information you wanted if asked, they were dispassionate. They talked about their work the way a dentist might talk about a tooth extraction.

About 180 degrees from the stereotypical Marine atttitude.

[Joe Chi Minh]

171. I suspect he could have been an infantryman in a field regiment,

who had carried on in just the way he described. In the UK, it's not unknown for infantrymen to pose as ex-SAS.

Why, when I was in the artillery and seconded to the Army Air Corps(!), the lads told me some of them carried dirtied up AAC berets (powder blue, wouldn't you know!) and leave part of it hanging out of their pocket, hoping it would be taken for an SAS beret!

[mistertrickster]

220. Ya got a point there. Do they even use SEALs to kick down doors?

That sounds more like regular "grunt" work to me . . .

[cassiepriam]

40. This will be quite common as the vets return from Iraq.

Be prepared, we will be seeing a lot of this kind of thing. And they will be damaged for the rest of their lives and impact those around them.

The damage of war goes on and on, in many ways, for a long time.

[DemonFighterLives]

60. Completely right!

The b*sh regime in it's quest for Empire couldn't care less about these guys after they do their time.

Great Story Torch! programming and even as far as chipping come to mind. Didn't McVeigh claim he had a chip in him.
Evil is on the march. This guy could have been puffing up his story, but it is a defense mechanism to keep the replays from showing in his mind.

[Gman]

45. Sounds like Dissociative Identity Disorder

formerly known as Multiple Personalities Disorder.

http://www.sidran.org/didbr.html

Especially the way the looked away and appeared to change.

[cassiepriam]

97. Yes, related to PTSD, we are going to be seeing much of this. nt

[deutsey]

48. The shockwaves of the Bush Junta will be felt for decades to come.

:evilfrown:

[mymomwasright]

49. SAW DOZENS OF THESE GUYS WHEN MY UNIT...

rotated into into Iraq. I could tell as soon as I started talking with them that some pretty horrid shit went down in Fallujah. I generally would find a way to get away from them even though it appeared they were trying to relieve their minds.

The big saying for Fallujah vets was "Fallujah.... I had to do it!" scralled on port-a-john walls and such.

I certainly don't defend killing innocents, but let's not forget what the services exist for and why they should always be a "last resort". Blame the guys who "let the jinni out of the bottle".

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

75. I wonder if the email you got was....

...from someone that has no personal clue as to what's really going on over there, or in combat in general?

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[w8liftinglady]

57. my son called me when he got back from fallujah

in the middle of the night.He never could tell me exactly what happened.I just know that he was never the same.That was the last time I heard my little boy-"mom,I'm scared.I saw...awful shit go down".We've never spoken of it again.

[hexola]

61. That's why I think it was wrong to engage him in conversation about it...

This is pretty serious shit...stuff nobody wants to recall...particularly in the middle of a social night out.

If the guy had a "distant look" it might have been out of disgust for being asked stuff like this.

My dad always used to tell me "never ask a VietNam vet about the war..."

And isnt there some old saying about not talking about politcs in a bar...

[TorchTheWitch]

179. HE brought it up!

I HAD to make some kind of comment since because HE brought it up it was obvious he WANTED to talk about it and EXPECTED me to say something. I never ASKED him a damn thing since I HATE talking about the war at work because I have strong feelings against it which usually don't jive with those customers returning from the war or claiming to be. It's my freaking JOB to talk about whatever it is the customer WANTS to whatever my feelings about it. I made a general comment to show I was listening and that I was at least somewhat familiar with the subject matter. I purposely didn't form the comment as a question so he would know he could continue with the subject or not (forming the comment as a question implies *I* want to hear more whether or not HE wanted to tell more)... it's all about what the CUSTOMER wants to talk about whether or not the subject matter is one I'm comfortable with.

And isnt there some old saying about not talking about politcs in a bar...

Wow... when's the last time you were in a bar? A bar is the one place people DO expound on politics since alcohol always tends to bring out strong feelings in people. Not a night I work passes that somebody doesn't want to jaw politics with me, which I particularly dislike in my business because it's a conversational mine-field. Customers particularly like talking politics with dancers since it's our job to heartly agree with everything they say and admire them for saying it.

The only place other than my work that there's more political pontificating is right here at DU. One of the biggest reasons I come here and came here to begin with is that before I arrived I wasn't very politically savy and wanted to keep abreast of what the hell the customers were talking about on both sides of the isle. And it's paid off handsomely. I can play the Rush Limbaugh fan, the raging tree hugging liberal, the straddling both sides of the fencer, the voter who pulls the lever for whoever makes me pay a few dollars less in taxes, the patriotic flag waving God Bless America uninformed citizen... whatever THEY want me to be so convincingly I suddenly become their new best friend and next thing you know I'm showing them the way to the VIP room that spells the big money for me.

[poleepafrog]

50. They were showing out for you, come on!

Get ANY bunch of guys in a group and OF COURSE they're gonna talk smack. They weren't exactly in church, or having tea with their moms' Get 'em alone, one-to-one, and you'd hear quite a different story, I'm sure.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

135. You seem to be trying much too hard to be convincing.

[neebob]

51. You don't suppose he said all that just to freak you out

and avoid the conversation?

[TorchTheWitch]

183. HE brought it up

I hardly think he would have brought the subject up if it was one he wanted to avoid.

[neebob]

270. Oh, I thought you brought it up

as in, "I recognized that burned out sort of 'lost' look my SO had when he got back and in sympathy asked one of them about it. He wasn't very talkative at first ...."

[w8liftinglady]

55. after my son's first deployment to iraq,he said things that disturbed me

like-"don't worry,mom-we aim low with the kids".don't be TOO quick to judge,though,because my son has been in therapy for 18 months (through the military)..and,yes-he was deployed again while in therapy.I'll just let you read my latest letter to the editor and see for yourself the impact this has had on my kid and me.
http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/dn/opinion/letters/stories/DN-3piraq_0326edi.ART.State.Edition1.3e50ba1.html

[femmedem]

65. So sad to hear of your son.

:hug:Maybe he'd like to read "Achilles in Vietnam" by Jonathon Shay. It compares the combat trauma of the soldiers in the Iliad with the experiences of Vietnam vets. War has been doing this to beautiful people for centuries.

[DemonFighterLives]

67. Nice Letter

I feel so sorry for you and your son.
Deployed while in therapy- that sounds like a Rumsfeld idea.
:grouphug:

Big Eddy the other day played a quote from Nixon to the effect- that Rumsfeld is a ruthless bastard. Nixon even knew this current crop had no heart.

[Jane Austin]

72. That's a powerful letter, Elizabeth.

Thank you for writing that.

I'm so sorry for what has happened to your son.

[sheelz]

94. Oh my, I read your LTTE...

It's so sad to see what you and your son are going through. It breaks my heart...:hug:

[TheCowsCameHome]

166. Eloquent letter. I hope your boy is made whole again.

[TorchTheWitch]

185. BIG HUGS!

and BIG HUGS to your son.

I'm going to read your letter later since I just realized I've been awake for almost 24 hours now, and my brain is starting to shut down. Must. Have. Sleep.

Do you have links for other letters you've written about this? I'd like to read them all.

Hang in there, and I send good healing vibes to you both.

:hug:

[Hissyspit]

197. That's very moving, w8liftinglady.

If you posted it earlier, I had not seen it. VERY eloquent and well-argued, as if you should even have to make an argument.

[w8liftinglady]

201. Thank you all for your words of support-why I LOVE DU(and democrats)

:loveya: :hug: :grouphug: :pals: :yourock:

[myrna minx]

245. Your letter gave me goosebumps.

What a powerful letter. My best wishes to you and your :son: :cry:

[lonestarnot]

69. If ever there was anything that makes my bristles raise it's got to be

talk by serial killers like these. What good are they? Unless one has the propensity for this type of wanton killing, it cannot be derived. It cannot be trained. It is an inherent trait of a killer without a conscience. Creation of evil without concern for it's conclusion is not something the seals train. That was something already present in this sick fuck.

[cassiepriam]

73. We are going to see a generation of young people seriously

damaged, physically and mentally. The cost will be incalculable.

[nashville_brook]

83. i'm wondering if we re going to see a difference in iraq vets compard to

vietnam vets. i wonder if there's something about the terrain and urban warfare more detached from reality. there seems to be a shooting gallery mentality. in the jungle, maybe there was less permanent bravado b/c there was more constant fear -- or consistent fear.

just wondering...

[cassiepriam]

89. Yes it is going to be much worse in a number of ways.

This will be the subject of discussion among the PTSD treatment community in the years to come.

[sojourner]

126. i think you're right. my own hypothesis is

that the video games that this generation of kids grew up with make creating a "shooting gallery" atmosphere much more likely. not blaming the video games. just that having practiced "killing" enemies (of all sorts and sizes) with realistic bloodspray and other imagery, and getting the "kick" (reinforcement) of a "win" make it much more likely that in war, with the dehumanizing tactics employed by the military, SOME of these kids are going to do the unthinkable. and then they'll pay the much too human price.....the loss of innocence, loss of part of themselves, and for a few, loss of their sanity.

[w8liftinglady]

248. one difference I have seen between viet nam vets and iraq war vets..

I have a friend who is a VW vet.he tells me he still feels "unclean"....that there was a lot of shame when he came home,and he felt it even more since people treated him like a criminal.On the other hand,we have elevated our soldiers(and remember,my son is one of them) to hero status,so that they are praised for bringing "freedom" to Iraq.In the meantime,they may well remember committing the same acts that the viet nam vet felt shame over.It causes a conflict and repression of true feelings,because to say"i'm no hero" would be unamerican,not to mention uncomfortable.just my opinion.

[sojourner]

251. another good point. about effects of this awful war.......

does no good to shame our young men - they haven't much choice in war - but i agree, it is also no good to lionize them for the very reasons you point out.

it is our leaders who should bear the shame. and ashamed they should be. --but that would suppose they had a conscience.

[cassiepriam]

253. Unfortunately that could change, we never know how public

sentiment will change, the American people can be fickle.
Love you one day, hate you the next.

At least at this point the vets will not have to hide
when they come home. We will have to wait and see how it
all shifts out.

[many a good man]

84. Might be due to the Go-Go drugs

and anti-malarial drugs like Lariam have side-affects of aggression and psychosis: http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/000052.html

Lariam, also known as Mefloquine, can according to drug warning labels cause aggression, psychosis and suicidal tendencies. UPI's Mark Benjamin reported that none of the soldiers he interviewed recalled being informed of these potential side effects.

The report makes clear that there is still no scientifically proven connection between the aggressive, erratic, and suicidal behavior of these Special Forces units and Lariam, but there is a correlation thus far.

...more on Lariam: http://www.ngwrc.org/index.cfm?page=Article&ID=1932

Lariam was invented by the Army's Walter Reed Institute of Research in the 1960s, which licensed it to Swiss pharmaceutical giant Hoffmann-La Roche; it has been approved for use in the United States since 1989. Increasing warnings have appeared on the official product label and now include aggression, hallucinations, paranoia and psychosis. The FDA ordered in 2003 that everyone prescribed the drug be given a written caution about potential side effects, including mental problems and reports of suicide. Fewer than 20 drugs come with mandatory written warnings.

In 2003 the Pentagon grew concerned over a spike in suicides in Iraq, where Lariam was prescribed, and sent another team from the Army Surgeon General's office to investigate. That team did not look at Lariam use, but Army officials said it was not a factor in any of the 24 suicides. In the year ending in October 2003 the Pentagon wrote 45,000 prescriptions for Lariam.

Improving the userfulness of amphetamines is a long range objective of the US military: http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0809/p01s04-usmi.html

Amphetamines follow a pattern that goes back at least 40 years to the early days of the Vietnam War – further back if one counts strong military coffee as a stimulant. But they're also part of a new trend that foresees "performance enhancements" designed to produce "iron bodied and iron willed personnel," as outlined in one document of the US Special Operations Command, which oversees the elite special-operations troops that are part of all the military services.

Indeed, the ability to keep fighting for days at a time without normal periods of rest, to perform in ways that may seem almost superhuman (at least well beyond the level of most people in today's armed services), is seen by military officials as the key to success in future conflicts.

[cassiepriam]

92. Bingo, that is certainly a part of the clinical picture. A complex

set of factors to consider.

[iamthebandfanman]

88. most of the people i know

that served in iraq and came back (and are on their way back again) have told me they had little contact with iraqi's.
one of the two who had spent some time around them told me that they want us to leave as soon as we think we can but generally they are glad we got rid of saddam...and who probably wouldn't be happy about that. but as far as whats going on now, they apparently just want us to leave n let them do as they wish now. makes sense.

the other told me he was never really let outside of his base. that he heard mortars and gunshots all the time and that it wasn't that rare that mortars were directed at the base he was at.

they both told me , to sum it up, that there are good things and there are bad things all happening at once...all the time.

*shrugs*

[smoogatz]

98. My hunch is

what he told you about what happened was mostly true. What he said about how he felt about it was what he HAD to say. I mean, what else COULD he say? It's going to take these guys years to process this stuff--years. My father was a WWII combat vet (three years in the Pacific, much of that time under enemy fire), and he had nightmares about the war until the day he died, 45 years later.

[RhodaGrits]

101. I wish I didn't believe this happened.

I was deeply disturbed by her account and reflecting on some people I love that I believe COULD be twisted to this extent by this experience. And suddenly realized that Tina Turner's voice was singing "...You can't think of them as human..." in the background in my head. Irony.

[alfredo]

107. I had a friend who was attached to the Rangers in Vietnam.

His experience with them was similar. You don't talk to them, and it may not be a good idea to make eye contact with them. they have been trained to do the dirty work, and have seen and done things that has changed their lives forever. They can be very scary, but they are our children, our loved ones, our fellow citizens. We need to help them reintegrate into society.

What happens to these people when they come home? Will they ever be at peace?

I worked with a former spook.(at the Post Office) We had a kinship because we belonged to the same organization, but he was into some really scary shit. I never saw my targets, but he did. He worked Eastern Europe and then later, Panama. He did face to face work there. He was also a sniper.

He dealt with his past by drinking. He was so traumatized that he was a danger to us all. His anger was so apparent. I was waiting for the day he snapped One day he threw down his work yelled "fuck this" and walked out. I went to my supervisor and told him what I know about him and that I would be wary and to take precautions taken when someone is fired. I never saw him, or ever heard from him again. He never returned for his last paycheck. I am sorry he snapped, but I am glad he didn't take it out on us.

[helderheid]

108. God I am so sorry

:hug:

I am horrified.

[Bigmack]

110. I love DU....

Sometimes it's had to post anything about a thread.... my thoughts have already been posted!

When I read the subject line on this post, I said to myself that this guy is a phony. Then I said... wait, you've known crazy fuckers like that...you remember what you were like when you came back to the world. I hate our troops... I love our troops. Not their fault... yes, it is their fault. Shit, I hate this war and Bush.

Then I scrolled down the thread, and there it all is. All the thoughts that flashed through my head.

DU is like a civilized discussion - something really rare these days. Everybody generally gets their say and nobody can be "O'Reilly-ed" into submission.

I love DU.

[Jose Diablo]

136. DU, it's like a multiple mind thinking all at once

yes, no, maybe, but what about this or that, I remember, this guy said, and on and on.

A snapshot of humanity, all rolled-up into a few minutes of reading and yes, I love DU also.

[cassiepriam]

117. If DU'ers are having so much trouble facing reality, no wonder the public

is in total denial.

I grew up in the military, spent a good chunk of my childhood living is Southeast during the height of the Viet Nam War. My mother was a nurse in the Korean War, my Father active duty combat in three wars: WWII, Korea, Viet Nam.

I also professionally know quite a bit about PTSD and associated trauma disorders.

And I have a number of health care friends who are active duty in Iraq as we speak.

The mental and physical trauma from the Iraqi invasion is going to be much worse than Viet Nam. There are many reasons for this, but some of the facts of the matter:

In Viet Nam, the rotations were much shorter, hence less psych damage.
Also the psych trauma is going to be different to some extent as well due to the nature of this war and how it is being fought. (In years to come there will be many articles written about this.) I will not go into all the details as it is obviously very painful to some on this thread.

Also currently the WH has ordered that there be as few deaths as possible in Iraq for political reasons, so the US MASH units in Iraq are working really hard to get all injured out asap and getting very good at keeping injured soldiers alive.

This means that many more soldiers are going to come home with horrific injuries that would have killed them in Viet Nam. We are going to see more long term financial and emotional costs with these vets than we did in VN.

As painful as hearing this may be to some of you, we are going to have face all of this at some point. And as I said, those of us who will have to pick up the pieces of Bush's mess need to be prepared for what it will be like down the road. Sticking our heads in the sand will not make it go away.

[sheelz]

128. Oh please...

Perhaps your head is in the sand. He chose to be a Seal. People have choices! And there are consequences! I'm not sympathetic at all.

on edit: added is

[TacticalPeek]

150. Poppycock.

"Also currently the WH has ordered that there be as few deaths as possible in Iraq for political reasons, so the US MASH units in Iraq are working really hard to get all injured out asap and getting very good at keeping injured soldiers alive."

This idea is apparently based on the very frequently discredited notion that troops wounded in Iraq who later die in Germany or the US etc. are not counted in the IRAQ KIA totals. Educate yourself by googling around, or just searching DU, and you will see that this is indisputably not true.

My son fought in Iraq and had close professional contact with medical personnel there. Your claim that our doctors, nurses, medics and corpsmen work "really hard to get all injured out asap" and are "very good at keeping injured soldiers alive" because of political orders from the White House is totally without foundation and something I find personally quite offensive. Truth matters.

http://icasualties.org/oif

:patriot:

[cassiepriam]

159. Many more lives are being saved then in Viet Nam. That is a fact.

I have read your reply several times, I do not understand how you are disagreeing with me.

[TacticalPeek]

163. But not because President AWOL orders it so for his political benefit.

The lives are saved and fast because that's the job, and we do it well. Regardless of the WH or whatever, that job always gets done to the best of the capability. When you say "so" it implies that there could be a speed-up on medical effort and evac etc. "so" President AWOL could gain somehow.

The only speed-up possible is to redeploy to Afghanistan and finish the previous unnecessary war.

[lonestarnot]

243. This is quite laughable, because life is not quite the same quality though

spared. I think that a new form needs to be created re quality of life that goes along with the living will and last letter etc.

[shadowknows69]

122. I've heard and seen similar things

as a taxi driver, near a military base. It's amazing how the soldiers (or anyone for that matter) will open right up to a cabbie (poor man's shrink like bartenders) and I've seen a lot of the same maniacal mannerisms when they talk about certain things. Many ABSOULTELY believe that Iraq caused 9/11 and the whole party line propaganda points. To be fair I've met my share of soldiers who, while not exactly admitting to being against the war, are at least very unhappy with the way it's been run.One or two have bluntly stated: "it's what I have to do to put food on my table". Even the ones you can sense have no belief in the cause are happy to serve if for no other fact than to protect his/her brothers and sisters in his/her unit. The Army should be commended in this matter at least for instilling this level of troop loyalty for obviously this is a necessary ingredient to a succesful fighting force. I just wish we didn't need one and that they weren't abused so. As you said Torch, A potential generation of unwitting monsters is being sent home to us. I hope these brave men and women can find peace in their souls again.

[Joe Chi Minh]

178. I doubt if the army can be commended for this spirit of heroic

self-sacrifice, which I think is most of the time latent, if nevertheless active, in very many "ordinary" people, but war is perhaps the most dramatic context in which it reveals itself.

It is certainly the raw material in mankind God is able to call upon, which in some way, admittedly derived and a gift from Him, which fits him for a life of eternal bliss shared within the very life of the Holy Trinity in Heaven. Remember Chesterton's take on Jesus' words, "Take up your cross daily and follow me": "Christianity has never been tried and found wanting; it has been found hard and left untried."

How many emergency-service workers, and ordinary Joe's will make a split-second decision to risk their lives, to save others, even in the most desperately perilous circumstances. Then again, others are called to a tremendously burdensome life of self-sacrifice, below the radar so to speak.

To quietly struggle to bring up a family (often just the one parent), so that one's children grow up to be good people, in our shocking world, ever spiraling down to greater depths of depravity of all kinds, must surely be one of the most epic undertakings open to any human being. "They also serve, who only stand and wait."

And now there seems to be many ways in which many Americans have it harder than Europeans, not least in the struggle simply to survive with a roof over their head. It's bad enough in the UK, and would be worse if Blair had a free hand.

[Carni]

125. I bet they are doping these guys up on something

I have thought this since the abu gharib story broke

[cassiepriam]

154. Yes I think so, they are very close to the Afghan poppy

fields. Black market drugs have to be plentiful and cheap.

During the VN war drugs were widely available to the troops and so was booze. Drug problems were not uncommon in the returning vets.

I think it is likely we are going to be seeing drug problems too in the Iraqi vets. And then the prescription drug addiction for the injured vets is going to be a problem too.

[shadowknows69]

127. BTW

"Nobody but nobody blasts innocent people in their homes into clumps of bloody flesh and REVELS in it unless they've seriously popped a screw. Maybe it's some bizarre unconscious defense mechanism... to do something so utterly foul in order to live with it you have to convince yourself it actually brought you JOY."

An incredibly astute analysis IMO. I think we should all keep that in mind when encountering this in Vets. Don't judge anyone too harshly unless you've also been made to dwell in Hell for a while. I have aboslutely no concept and I won't be the first to cast stones. Viewing such horrors from the comfort of my computer nearly wrecks me emotionally. To actually experience it I know I couldn't take it without some serious help afterwards.

[gizmo1979]

130. I met many special forces personel

while in the army.You have to realize something about these people,they are not right from the get go.They are the craziest off their rocker guys you will ever meet.Having said that,they are also the people you would most want next to you in time of war this is all they do and all they think about.

[leftofthedial]

131. and we have to deal with these broken people for the rest of their lives

I think the psychological and health consequences for these veterans will be far worse than anything we saw from WWII, Korea or Viet Nam.

[cassiepriam]

147. Yes it is going to be very expensive. nt

.

[Nothing Without Hope]

138. he'd be right at home in Hitler's SS. Same psychology - certainty of

superiority and sadistic pleasure in dominating others by inflicting trauma and death. Monsters. He was probably once a human being, but he isn't any more. He's exactly the ask-no-questions amoral killing machine that the cartel wants.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

143. Go back through history...you'll find the same type of mentality....

...in all elite troops. They have all been trained to act on any order without hesitation going back to the earliest military organizations.

[Joe Chi Minh]

184. No, I don't think that's the case, Media_Lies_Daily. At least , not

the whole truth.

I remember hearing the commentator on a cable documentary on the U-boat war, relating, not without some amusement, what a job Doenitz had trying to get through to Hitler, that asking crack troops - in the case in point, the U-boat crews - to strafe women and children survivors of torpedoed Allied shipping, that it wasn't the kind of order to give crack troops, but rather would harm their morale. Doenitz was obviously informed by pre-Nazi martial values.

I think the situation of those young American soldiers in Iraq is all together more nightmarish than even those U-boat crews, whose chances of personal phsyical survival were, by then, very, very slim. No young man, no man, should be required to act in such a way. Yet the same was an inevitable consequence of official US policy in Vietnam, too.

Also Andy McNab of Bravo Two Zero, said that they disdained to kill the boy goatherd, because it wasn't why they'd signed up for the SAS, although thereby putting the kybosh on any already remote chance of success of their operation.

On the other hand, I believe it is accepted that the Waffen SS had genuinely elite troops, so it's not necessarily a black-and-white area.

[cassiepriam]

149. Some of these folks were normal sane people, others were crazy

to begin with. War is life altering event.

[bvar22]

141. There is NO WAR in Iraq.

There IS a Superpower suppressing a Civilian Insurgency.
BIG difference.

The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[Joe Chi Minh]

188. Precisely. This has evidently led to surreal stuff in Basra under

the British.

Something written by Anna Smith in today's Sunday Mirror:

"AS Baghdad descends closer to civil war, with corpses everywhere and life much worse than ever for the Iraqis, how can the West make it better? Build a water park, of course.

With a wave machine and super slides to give the kids the thrill of their lives. You could't make it up. But it's true. And Scots engineers will help build it. I wonder where they'll put the blood bath?"

[sellitman]

145. Looks like you found someone with a more dehumanizing job than your own.

Only you get paid better.

Sad if you think about it.

[babylonsister]

152. Was that necessary?

This woman related a heart-wrenching experience, and the best you can do is diss her job?
:eyes: Why bother replying at all?

[TheWatcher]

165. You are completely out of line

I imagine you won't even get a response from her, and I hope she sees fit to completely ignore your irrelevant, petty attitude.

You're disgusting.

[sellitman]

207. On re-read...you are right.

I sent an PM apology to TorchTheWitch tonight after reading yours and others posts.

I am ashamed. Thank you for calling me out.

Kevin

[lildreamer316]

172. As a stripper myself for 12 years...

I have never felt dehumanized, except at a REGULAR bar with dumbasses who don't know how to treat a woman. I love my job and am a better person for it. Sorry to burst your bubble. And, btw, am happily married with a kid and no drug or drinking problem. I feel empowered by my job. You have no idea what the job is REALLY about-psychology. It is facinating. There is a whole other level most ppl never see......

[AuntPatsy]

187. What a stupid thing to say,

[babylonsister]

146. TorchTheWitch, thanks for your account.

You brought your encounter into my computer room. I'm appalled, but not that surprised. I really do fear for these soldiers and the aftermath they will have to confront within themselves.
God help these guys because their government, who created them, won't.
:-(

[AuntPatsy]

153. I believe he felt exactly the way you described. I have heard the

same words spoken by civilians when asking if they believe such behaviors to be acceptable.

I have read this whole thread and all the responses. It's obvious that some have never had the experience that you have to hear another person talk about death and destruction as if they were discussing the outcome of a Superbowl game and their team won.

I agree with another poster that you should surely one day think about putting all of your experiences down in book form one day, it would make for fascinating reading because you can enter worlds that most people refuse to believe exist.


But lets not ignore that many civilians are also being taught the same mindset as this man obviously was. It's war and anything goes when it comes down to his life or mine. We really should also be taking into account that the past several years have not only changed young soliders lives but everyday civilians as well.

Remember the man who shot and killed another simply over a difference of political viewpoints. I have no doubt as elections draw near, such behaviors will be highlighted once again as the propaganda machines begins to grind it's wheels into full geer towards the human phsyce.

[The Backlash Cometh]

157. Some are especially recruited and trained for this kind of nonemotional

outburst.

[hiaasenrocks]

158. You got taken for a ride.

My Marine friend (recently back from Iraq) does this all the time when people question him about "how bad it was," "how horrible it is over there," etc. He loads them up with false accounts of horror, because...that's what they think already, and he's mocking them. He does this to strangers who ask, or semi-acquaintances. Anyway, when you ask a leading question based on second-hand information, opening the door like you did, don't be surprised when you get a pie thrown in your face.

[BuyingThyme]

195. Nope.

[hiaasenrocks]

242. Thoughtful rebuttal. Thanks.

[BuyingThyme]

250. At least I didn't apply somebody else's story to him in hopes of

dismissing the murders.

[MadisonProgressive]

203. That was my take

She didn't come right out and say it, but she inferred the question: "What was killing like".

[baby_mouse]

273. Sounds plausible.

And mind-bogglingly stupid.

Witness this thread...

[cassiepriam]

160. The true cost of this war will not be known for quite some time.

The physical and psychological cost to American troops. And the costs to the Iraqi people will be staggering.

And how do you put a price tag on the human suffering that is happening now and will continue far into the future?

If adversity builds character, then we are in for character building moments as the financial, physical and psychological costs of this war become more apparent in the years to come.

And I apologize to those who have found my comments distressing, but they will be small compared to what will be discussed in the future.

Once the vets are home to stay, we will see first hand the damage done to them. And the truth will also come out about the extent of the damage to the Iraqi people and their country.

[Karenina]

241. Yo, Cassiekins...

EVERY post you have made on this thread has been EXCELLENT. Americans are just not yet rady to deal with the TRUTH that Torch and you present in its stark reality. :Hugs to you both. :hug::hug:

[cassiepriam]

256. Americans will be dealing with it at some point. like it or not....

that is for certain. Thanks for the kind words.

[Greyhound]

161. This is the reality of what special forces training is all about.

This kid has been FUBAR and, assuming he survives, will pay the price. I've known several of these guys over the years and your account rings true with me, especially the lack of expression when talking about what he did and the 1000 yard stare. The future he likely faces will go something like this. He will stay in as long as the action stays hot (you don't use SF for policing), he will be redeployed to Afghanistan, or some other place where he will continue until he is;
a.) killed/seriously wounded and sent home for us to deal with
b.) has a personal revelation and becomes worthless to them @ which point he will be cashiered and dumped on the streets of amerika, again for us to deal with
c.) he will be "transitioned" into one of the corporate mercenary companies, where his talents will be utilized, possibly here, until (see a).

As I said, I've known several of these guys and, in my experience, they will never be "right" again. Two quick stories, "K" was a (recently discharged) SEAL, about 5' 10" and a very solid 190lbs. veteran of the raygun era of militarism (BTW we were involved in dozens of conflicts around the world that we never heard about under that asshole, and always on the wrong side). We were riding his motorcycle to a party on the west side when some jerk-off nearly ran us off the viaduct, we were literally up on the guard rail. In a split second I felt him change (I was on the back as my bike was sick) as he gunned the bike and took off after the guy, who foolishly stopped at the red light at the other end of the viaduct. We hadn't even stopped when Kevin jumped off the bike (leaving me to finish stopping and hold it up) and in what seemed like two seconds, but must have been thirty, punched through the drivers side window, dragged the asshole out through it, and beat him unconscious in the middle of the street. The driver was unrecognizable from all the blood and we found out later, that "K" had broken bones in both of his hands, but at the time he just stopped and calmly walked back to the bike like nothing had happened. It was like a switch had been flipped on and then flipped off. He later told me that he purposely stopped himself from killing the guy because he didn't want to ruin the party.

"P" was a Vietnam vet that served in the Army SOG through two tours until the war was over, he is/was about 5'6" any way you measured him, and was the very definition of an immovable object. The withdrawal from Vietnam was the saddest day in his life. He finished his hitch and went merc where he continued to ply his trade until he was standing too close to a tank that got hit in Rhodesia and lost a good part of his skull. The resulting metal plate made him unacceptable for combat duty and he had no aptitude for training or logistics so he was lost. We met in Denver when he started opening up my bar, I'd come in about 9 - 9:30 to get ready to open the doors and he was waiting. I'd get the coffee on and start unlocking and preparing to open for the lunch crowd of construction workers while he regaled me with the tales of his exploits (which I figured was mostly, if not all, BS @ the time). After this daily routine continued for about 3 months, the night manager called in and I had to pull a double. As I mentioned, the majority of our customers were construction workers and this was a Friday night, so we had cashed their paychecks and then took the money back while they got drunk and tried to take the dancers home. Well as usual it got pretty rowdy and one of the dumbasses grabbed one of the dancers and before anybody could even get up to stop it "P" had jumped across both sides of the U shaped bar and put the offender down so hard I heard his skull hit the carpeted floor over the blaring music. At least three of his buddies came to the aid of their friend and again, in what seemed like a flash there were four bodies on the floor with "P" standing there, barely breathing hard with the most eerie and satisfied look on his face. That was the moment I knew he wasn't lying and I started really talking to him. He won't get in a motorized vehicle of any kind, it was winter and he rode a bicycle or walked wherever he went, in the spring he went up into the mountains and panned gold to raise the cash he needed to get through the winter. He was, and probably still is, completely outside of what we call society, and society is probably better off for it.

The reason I wrote about these two men is to try to convey just how effective our indoctrination and training for special forces is, and what a real threat they are to those they go up against. When I heard that Blackwater was used in New Orleans, I really freaked out. Hardly anybody in this country understands what the implications of turning these organizations loose in this country are, especially this bunch of cowardly chickenhawks, that think they can control them, they have no concept.

[driver8]

223. A good friend of my dad's came back from Vietnam and could

not deal with living in "society."

He ended up living in the woods of Maine by himself with as little contact as possible with anyone else. He lived like that for almost three years.

He will never talk about Vietnam.

[F.Gordon]

167. I call bullshit

I mean... nothing like what you describe EVER goes on over there. :eyes:



Thank goodness no one ever comes back from this shit and blows up a federal building or uses their sniper skills to terrorize or anything. :eyes:

I have a personal attachment to someone highly placed in the VA. For those that WANT help they don't have the beds in the psych wards to treat these poor souls. They are left to deal with this on their own. Never mind the female soldiers that are being gang-raped over there with the "blessing" of the CO. That's another issue.

I'm reading some of the posts in this thread and I'm just shaking my head. And the attacks on the OP... I just don't get it.
:(

[TorchTheWitch]

230. You don't get it? I do

This happens all the damn time. Because I'm a stripper I'm an idiot. Plenty of people here have said so for the years I've been here, so it must be true. I'm a dim bulb even though I'm 40 and spent most of my career in the corporate world as a paralegal. I became stupid the moment I stepped on the stage. My entire history was erased at that moment, and I suddenly became not only stupid but undeserving of even the most general respect and benefit of the doubt other people are afforded. And right here at DU... this paragon of liberalism and deep thought. It's perfectly ok to judge me as a person because strippers are really non-people. Try that one on a gay person or African American or disabled person, etc. and there would be a massive pile on you the likes of which defies imagining... you'd probably immediately be tombstoned as a suspect Freeper. But say these things about a stripper and directly to a stripper?... crickets.

And do you know how they know that I deserve this kind of Freeperish shit? Because they have no fucking clue what my job is really like and what it entails and have probably never stepped foot one into a strip club. Interesting how that works, huh? Their complete ignorance somehow makes them an authority... even more of an authority than me who lives it.

Want to see a good example of what a non-person I am? Go through the whole thread and count up all the posts that made reference to my job which they know nothing about, particularly the ones that don't offer either anything more or very little... notice that they all not only question my judgment, but do so in a harsh and attacking manner. I'm a non-person because they think I am my job... that I'm a stripper 24/7 and shop for groceries and walk my dog in cutsy outfits with 6 inch heels. Know how I know they think I am my job? Because when my job is mentioned in the same thread perfectly valid things I have to say are suspect even when these same things have been claimed as valid up down and sideways time and again all over DU for years.

But an even better example is that although I clearly said in the OP that the incident so much affected me that I had to pull off the highway and cry, no one who chose to ridicule me even acknowledged that... It made me CRY and they feel it is more important to ridicule me and even attack me. Why give a shit if a stripper cries? Because she is a non-person. I've got exactly two words for those people, they know precisely what those words are, and they will slit their wrists and light themselves on fire before they ever acknowledge they deserve them.

To these people, I HAVE to be wrong and riduculed for being wrong even though there are posts aplenty from people who say they have witnessed similar things themselves and one dear woman who's son told her of horrors beyond imagining he saw in Fallujah that he is receiving treatment for. Ah, but where are the posts that attack those people and claim what they say isn't valid - that their judgement is faulty? Simple... they aren't strippers, therefore their statements are valid and they have the sound judgement of real persons.

Hell, I'm even attacked for listening to this guy at all about Iraq when I repeated throughout the thread, and what I thought would have been obvious in the OP, that HE brought it up. One does not bring up a subject that they don't want to talk about. Nobody seems to be willing to confront that even though it's such an obvious truth. They won't confront it because even though it's an obvious truth, it was said by a stripper. Had he not freely told me he was a SEAL just back from Iraq how would I have known? As I said in another post, did I just absorb this information through the poors of my skin or read it in the french fry crumbs in beer foam as if they were tea leaves? Who freely tells someone something about themselves that in no way was asked for mean he didn't want to talk about it? If he didn't want to talk about it, he never would have told me he was a SEAL just back from Iraq, yet somehow I'M the one responsible for the subject coming up... make sense out of that shit.

I even had someone subtley call bullshit on the entire OP for the simple reason that they thought it was well written. Yes, you read that right. Feel free to read it again just to be sure. So I am to assume then that I need to write like a 4th grader so anything I relate might be more credible? Do I need to explain how crazy batshit loopy insane that is?

Time and time again I've written posts trying to educate people about what I really do, what my job is really like, and those posts go almost completely unacknowledged. They don't WANT to understand it because they LIKE being able to hide behind ignorance in order to maintain the status quo and continue to judge me as a person and whatever it is I have to say about anything. And who do we know that always does THAT? Makes me wonder if I fell through the looking glass and landed on THAT site.

I actually did get one apology (the first one ever on this subject since I've been here) for a truly evil remark but whoever it was only decided to do so after getting spanked by a few people. I have zero use for an empty apology, and I probably won't even bother to read it.

But you know what? It doesn't matter. This job has made me develop so thick a skin that there is nothing they could possibly say that I don't hear all the damn time everywhere I go. They will not shame me, and they will not hurt me... and the fact that they want to speaks volumes about THEM. And you watch, the fact that I just said it doesn't matter will make them think they just got the green light to keep it up, so they will.

Judge not lest ye be judged... SEALS, George W. Bush and Ted Nugent will fly out from between the cleft of my firm delicious buttocks before that LIBERAL idea will ever be universally applied to a stripper here.

[gordianot]

168. Hard to say what or who you met.

Generally these people do not talk. When they do I am suspicious.

I have met a Seal I know for a fact was a Navy Seal. He wore no insignia, never talked, never bragged.

My best friends twin brother drove a truck in Vietnam. He eventually was hospitalized and found a job in the country away from people. When he saw people cross the street he would floor his car. Luckily no one was hurt when he returned he had to quit driving where there were pedestrians. I drove him several places, he explained what happened in Vietnam and what they did to survive.

War is dirty business everywhere, it is not noble or clean, many who survive this experience think differently than people who have not experienced war. They would be alien to most right wing chicken hawks. There are also people who enjoy this life style I am not sure that is necessarily a political stance.

[Raksha]

170. This is one of the most tragic things I've ever read.

The Bush mafia is actually killing the souls of our troops when they don't kill their bodies...AND THEY KNOW IT!

[insane_cratic_gal]

173. Could be he resents being asked about it.

Forces you to live the experience all over again, the only way to live with what you have done is to dehumanize it.

It's what the military has done for all combat soldiers, tries to teach you between black and white.. Enemy and "us" black and white.

By being sympathetic your asking him to personalize it. It's classic PTSD

[gordianot]

206. Right, and with a good deal of sarcasm.

[Rex]

180. War is hell.

I truly believe war is Hell on Earth. That is why it should be the LAST RESORT EVER. How many times must a soldier or marine kill before it turns into outright murder? How many murders does it take to satisfy a man's lust for blood and pain? The smell of blood and flesh. Horrible, inhuman and very popular at the moment. Humans really are not that different from computers in some ways.

[NNadir]

192. Thank you for having the decency to weep.

You are a true being.

[SoCalDem]

199. War reduced to video-game status..(or elevated to, depending on the person

This is a natural consequence of an "all volunteer" military" folks..

There IS a contingent of mostly men who LIKE violence and this group is very attracted to a military life. The like the idea of being brutal for a living, and being able to "have their way" with few, if any consequences.

The draft at least garnered a cross section (except for the rich kids) of society. The draft hooked the writers, artists, athletes, musicians, along with the "tough guys". The "others" were a safety valve for the whole group. Perhaps lots of atrocities were averted because there wre lots of different types of guys in the unit. But when a unit is made up of ALL/MOST guys who joined to get to shoot people with impunity and who love to kick ass, well there ya go..

Disclaimer:

There are probably MORE people in the service these days who joined out of economic necessity and from a desire to serve, but we cannot deny that there is also a large contingent of people (mostly men) who are on a ego/power trip, sanctioned by the defense department.

[JanMichael]

204. I am shocked at how many people on this thread are responding.

Shocked.

The rationalizations are stupifying.

DUers that simply don't wish to believe that psychotic soldiers don't exist. That PTSS doesn't exist.

Amazing.

[w8liftinglady]

210. it's hard to believe until you experience it.

hard to believe that the goofy adolescent you sent to boot camp would come back a zombie.It took my son almost three weeks until he could play with his brothers.I know he saw children killed...probably some who reminded him of his little brothers.18 months of therapy that the military (thankfully) imposed....then sent into Iraq again after 6 months of treatment.I feel like he hurt himself on purpose to get out of there.

[Lorien]

215. Another thing that most people don't want to admit; that there are human

beings in this world that simply love to kill.

I heard a deer hunter speaking on PBS one night, talking about the first time he killed a buck. He said that watching that big animal die and knowing that HE was the one who killed it was better than having an orgasm. It made my insides twist just listening to him-he LOVED killing. And before anyone says "but there's a difference between killing people and killing animals"from a psychological standpoint no, there isn't. The love of killing and/ or causing pain and terror requires the same mindset no matter who those actions are directed towards. That's the reason law enforcement takes animal abuse so seriously-they know a human is next in line.

Psychotic, disturbed, sociopathic PEOPLE exist, period. In an insane situation like Iraq they can behave insanely with impunity. Whether those tendencies were always there or events caused the man to snap...well, only a trained professional could determine that.

[Cant_wait_for_2008]

216. "they know a human is next in line". So all hunters are potential killers?

Thats where I see you coming from here.

BTW I dont hunt.

[Lorien]

218. No, but people who "love to kill" and cause pain for "fun" are.

If I'm not mistaken, many people who hunt say they do it for the meat. If they're doing it because they get orgasmic watching a living creature die then they need help.

[TorchTheWitch]

231. It all comes down to the stripper

I knew this would probably happen because it was a stripper who said it. Strippers are not credible. They aren't to be believed because it is believed they are their job, and because they pretend at work it means that anything they say outside of work is pretense. We are non-people ripe for scorn and ridicule... even if people have to jump through hoops to do it.

Welcome to my world.

[femmedem]

247. So sorry this post has become painful for you.

There have been some pretty snarky replies. But you've gotten some wonderful support, too, and not just from other strippers like me.

Interesting your thread is on Greatest with demgurl's. Like her, I've been horrified by how quick some people have been to discredit the woman who danced at the Duke frat party. It goes way beyond "innocent until proven guilty." It's like they're emotionally invested in seeing her proven a no-good liar.

Well, I'll be looking for your posts in the future. I consider you a sister.

[Rex]

261. FWIW, I would take a strippers word over most others

Just because you do more social work than most. OTOH, you really shouldn't let people get under your skin on an anonymous message board. I'm sure most of the objectors are jealous that they don't have the body or guts to strip in front of strangers.

[Blue_Tires]

205. maybe he was just talking a lot of loud macho shit to

try to impress a pretty woman?


or maybe not....some people, however, do get a major sensory thrill from violence and battle....

[Judi Lynn]

229. Also, there are a lot of people who actually don't feel comfortable

revealing too much of their private lives and experiences to complete strangers, and need time to become comfortable enough to discuss intense personal matters.

[TorchTheWitch]

244. HE Brought It Up

I am so getting tired repeating myself on this all over this thread. Does nobody READ anymore? So I'll repeat myself once again even though I'm sounding like a broken record.

HE BROUGHT UP THE SUBJECT!

If he didn't want to talk about it, HE WOULDN'T HAVE BROUGHT IT UP!

If a guy says to you "Hey, I'm a Navy SEAL that just got home from Iraq" are you going to think that you shouldn't make any comment on that because even though he brought it up, for some crazy batshit loopy insane reason he'd want you to IGNORE what he just told you? Are you going to refuse to enter into to a conversation on a subject HE STARTED? Isn't it considered RUDE to IGNORE a comment someone made to you about themselves? Because it sure as hell is where I come from.

If we're all supposed to ignore subjects that other people bring up, then HOW THE HELL DO ANY CONVERSATIONS EVER TAKE PLACE?

For the love of all that is sacred I have no freakin' idea why so many people suddenly think that when someone tells you something about themselves, you'd assume that they actually don't want to talk about it. This actually beats every bit of Freeper logic I've ever seen.

I've died and gone to bizzaro world.

[LibertyorDeath]

209. Sounds about right

When you send them in to kill everything that moves
you need sick sadistic mother fuckers that like nothing better than blowing someones
brains out.

This is the type of mind that can shoot a 5 year old point blank in the face and move on to the parents then the next house and the next.

There are people that get high on killing others, he sounds like he's been high to long.

Maybe some of this guys "service" for the US military is here.

>>>>>>>>WARNING EXTREMELY GRAPHIC<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Dahr Jamail's
Fallujah Photos



http://dahrjamailiraq.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album28&page=1

Thanks for your post

[LynnTheDem]

212. You saw PTSD up close.

Hopefully he gets help BEFORE he kills his family or friends or himself.
Or all the above.

[nadinbrzezinski]

228. Yep that is exactly what that read like

I got to treat a kid back during the first gulf war... for serious PTSD... we got to use chemical restraints on him, for all our collective safeties.

I since learned the kid recovered... but was discharged... good kid, but when we first met him as a patient, he was scary... at many levels

[w8liftinglady]

213. if you want to read the soldiers' own word...this blog"letters from Iraq"-

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CFTMArchive/message/99

excerpt
-snip
Now I just get a tired, aching throb in my gut and head and it takes me a while to get back to reality. I stay in a mindless, vacant mode most of the time when I’m out past the wire. I just function and deal with stuff and then keep pushing through it all. That’s really gonna f..k everything up when I try to get back home and go back to a supposedly normal life. I think that I will have a long hard road that might take more work than it’s worth.

Oh yeah, I am talking about suicide if you ain’t got the clear picture yet. One of our fellow soldiers with ------ shot himself and there have been four or five others that I know were suicides. Look at the stats and you will see several non-combat gunshot fatalities. Just for those who ain’t sure, it means suicide in most cases. Not all the time, but a good part of them are and the Army hates to officially put that sh.t down on paper. Check out the full U.S. casualty list and see how many things like that you can find.

-snip

[Dead_Parrot]

225. "What would scare me...

...is if we were to send a group of eighteen year olds 12,000 miles away, and subject them to a year of that obscenity, and have them not be affected. That's what would frighten me."

-unknown vet, on Vietnam.

[justicewanted]

252. This is an amazing thread.

It has 250 responses and almost no flames. TorchTheWitch, regardless of whether he told you the truth or not, thanks for the account. This has been an extremely interesting thread, and I really respect you and also the other great people of DU. This site helps me remember that there is still hope for the world to become a better place. I've been lurking here since my eyes were opened by the invasion of Iraq. I have become addicted to DU.

[Blue_Tires]

254. welcome to the site!

[geniph]

258. My husband is a Marine Vietnam combat veteran

who suffers a fairly low degree of PTSD for a combat veteran. He and I have talked quite a lot about why some guys come back so wrapped around the axle and unable to assimilate into civilian life. He thinks a large part of the reason he's done okay is that he didn't come straight back from combat into being expected to behave like a normal human being. He was sent to Adak, Alaska, to guard the nuclear base there for six months. He had six months to essentially decompress and re-adjust to not being shot at, to not trying to shoot people, to not being on high alert, to not having rockets suddenly fall on the place where he was sleeping.

The guys that come straight back from intense combat into civilian life have had no decompression. Like a diver brought too suddenly back up to normal pressure, I think the intense hyper-pressure of combat gives them the emotional equivalent of "the bends." And, like the bends, I think it causes permanent damage in a lot of them. We really need more understanding of the need for these people to decompress, re-adjust, and re-socialize.

That being said, you don't want to use a nail gun or anything else that produces a cordite smell around my husband, or you'll watch him start to revert. And you still don't want to startle him awake - more than 30 years and 75 pounds later, he'll still scare the hell out of you with his instantaneous response.

[tallahasseedem]

267. My brother in law is the same way....

he can down right scare my the hell out of my sister. A lot of times he doesn't even know he is doing it.

[davidthegnome]

259. Shocking... and unbearably sad.

I'm sorry you had to experience that. I freely admit I have never been to a strip club or had any discussion what so ever with a former navy seal, but I do believe your story - and I believe this man was telling the truth. Even friends of mine, who consider themselves democrats... one has repeatedly told me that he wishes he was younger so he could go to Iraq and "Kill towelheads". Another, my best friend for over 12 years, nearly broke my nose when I once referred to soldiers as "trained killers".

It's not just that these poor folks are losing their humanity - it's that countless people refuse to accept that. Similar to how you are degraded and insulted for being a stripper, you will also be degraded and insulted for speaking (or, in this case, typing) the truth. I suppose when it comes down to it, the man MAY have been bull shitting you, but due to your description of him and his general attitude, I do not believe that to be the case. Fact of the matter is, even if it WAS bull shit, he's an asshole for the way he spoke of it.

But he's an asshole who was created by the American military. I can't help but feel sorry for him - for the way he looks at these people, and if I still believed in that nonsense, I'd wonder if he was possessed. I have been diagnosed with PTSD myself, for very different reasons, and I would say he clearly showed signs of this.

I'm no expert on the military, nor on navy seals, but I do know a thing or two about people in general. You're a good person, for being shocked and disgusted by this, and then later having the compassion to feel sympathy.

Btw - to my fellow DU'ers, I think she deserves a big round of applause for having the courage to share her story, and her personal life... despite the fact that she must have KNOWN some people would ridicule her for it. This woman is great.

I haven't known too many strippers, but I can absolutely tell you this is one I would be pleased to meet.

[mmonk]

260. I'm no expert, but I think what you saw

was a coping mechanism when asked to do something as violent as that while also not knowing if an IED will get him. That's the way I take the response with the emotionless stare or eye avoidance. There's going to be alot of messed up people wandering around out there before it's all over.

[JCMach1]

264. PTSD

:(

This guy is f*&ked

[tallahasseedem]

265. I had a student last year...

that just returned from Iraq. He told me that they shot the soldiers up with a whole bunch of stuff to get them going into battle. He said that after the shots that they felt as if they could run through brick walls and felt absolutely no remorse in shooting people. I know that there are some sick people out there but I can say that some of this could be from whatever the government is giving to these kids.

[nolabels]

266. Sounds just about normal to me

The problem is the guy came back to a place that he looks as no longer normal anymore. Kill or be killed, eat or be eaten, being desensitized is like that. He might never see the world as it seemed before. The wounded with no visible scares, walking about unnoticed can be very scary

[northzax]

269. FOR all the people talking about Fallujah

might want to take note that no SEAL teams took place in the final siege and destruction of Fallujah. They don't work well with large numbers of troops, it's not how they're used.

yes, one of the private contractors killed in Fallujah that started the whole mess was a former SEAL (in fact believed to be the youngest SEAL to ever graduate from SEAL training.) but there is no evidence, and no practical reason to believe, that SEALs themselves were in Fallujah during the final siege. Frankly, it would have been a waste of their special 'talents' to involve them in such an onslaught.

Fallujah was regular forces, all the way.

[donheld]

271. The man is to be pittied

It's got to be his mind's only defense against the horrors he witnessed.

[Name removed]

272. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Xenotime]

274. You ask..

What in the name of all that is sacred is our government DOING to what was once probably very normal and healthy people???

WE are bringing terror to these countries.