A play from the Kobe Bryant play book: vilify the victim in the press

[Evergreen Emerald]

I am amazed at the misinformation on this web site. No wonder it is so hard for victims to come forward. I am referring to the rape allegation involving the team at Duke University.

The defense is making an effort to vilify the victim in the press. They see what works and emulate it: Coby Bryant's victim eventually refused to cooperate with the prosecution and they had to drop the charges because of the treatment she received by the public. The defense used the press to spread lies and the public bought it. She was threatened, her reputation ruined, her life in turmoil because she thought there was justice in America and that just because a guy was famous did not mean he could use her. She was wrong.


Based on the posts I have read on DU, the lies spread by the defense are working.

-Condoms rarely leave trace evidence
-DNA is not always found
-Doctors can NEVER say a woman was raped, only that the injuries are "consistent" with rape.
-Timing of the injuries versus when she said she was raped: victims rarely have exact times of the event. More often they have time frames. They are estimating.
-drunk women don't deserve to be raped.

The credibility of the victim is key to rape cases, because of course the perpetrators aren't talking. So, the defense is attempting to create doubt in the minds of the jury pool by spreading misinformation. I hope there is still justice for victims.

[Greyhound]

1. I have no solid opinion one way or the other on this specific case

and I would appreciate your input. Why do you believe this story? From the little I've heard it does sound very questionable, but that could be due to media filters that do favor the powerful over the powerless.

[LostinVA]

121. There's no reason not to believe the story -- none

There is medical evidence she was raped, regardless of anything else. She is a victim. The Defense is spinning as fast as they can, which is their job to do... and many people on this board are buying it. There's definitely nothing wrong at all on wondering WHO the rapists are... but there are rapists.

To me, it doesn't sound questionable at all -- the facts that we know describe incidents that, unfortunately, happen way too frequently on campuses.

[FreakinDJ]

143. No reason to believe DNA evidence NONE nada zip, absence of

Love your logic sweet heart

[NaturalHigh]

190. I DON'T believe the story.

A gang rape leaves no DNA, not even under the fingernails? Wasn't she supposed to have scratched one of the alleged perps?

Also, the players aren't claiming consensual sex. They are claiming that none of the had sex with this woman at all. That's a pretty odd defense if they raped her.

It's her word against 46 people who say that nothing happened. Before anyone says that she is only accusing three of them, remember that her supporters were saying (on DU and elsewhere) that there is no way people in that house didn't hear what was going on.

There's really no doubt in my mind that this story is not true.

[progressivebydesign]

196. she had fake nails, and they were found broken off in the bathroom.. n/t

[NaturalHigh]

199. Easy enough for her to plant...

and apparently there was no matching DNA on those fingernails.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

2. Thank you! Blaming the victim has been a long time tactic in

rape cases.

Unfortunately it has come back very much.

[Evergreen Emerald]

9. I honestly believe the treatment of women and minorities today...

...in this country has to do with the current administration. Those whose beliefs were so backwards and racist and homophobic that they hid under rocks in the 80's have been given a voice as if they are the norm. And the result is that rights of women and minorities are degrading.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

30. I agree. It is contagious. Before this admin it was different. It is

in part the false bravado of the Neocon "he men", who never fight in a real war.

It is the demeaning, discounting, disregard for those less fortunate.

It is all part of the same pattern.

[Lars39]

36. It's also a characteristic of a fascist system.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

45. Yes, fascism has to have something to prop up its insidious system.

Often it is a scapegoat(s).

[goclark]

116. You are including Scalia&Co. as a part of "this administration"

aren't you?

Cause they sure are bought and pd. for by the NeoCons.

The way they treated Anita Hill (and Democrats helped them out) was a CRIME!

[aikoaiko]

33. Almost as long used as jumping to conclusions and rushing to judgment nt

[BrownOak]

188. Who is blaming the victim here?

Nobody is saying the alleged victim did anything to deserve being raped (that's a pretty tough one to sell even to even the most barbaric audience). Is it blaming the victim to for the accused to say they didn't do it? Somebody has to be lying here - why, when there has been a bunch of evidence that should make people think twice about assuming the guilt of these players, is it considered smearing the alleged victim to say that you aren't 100% sure of her version of events?

[BlooInBloo]

3. I take it you're talking about *Kobe* Bryant?

I don't recall Kobe spreading much of anything. Could you refresh my memory please?

[Evergreen Emerald]

5. now you know: I am not into basketball!

I even checked the internet first before I posted his name! (thanks)

The defense in the Kobe Bryant case was extremely sympathic to the basketball star and vilifed the victim.

The defense used the press to spread numerous lies. A few:
--that she had accused others before of rape
--that the DNA showed other men
--that she had numerous sex partners days before the assault
--that she had mental problems.

I am surprised that you don't remember. It was a huge event. Despite the court order, the defense continued to spread lies to the media. And eventually it became too much for her. She even received threats on her life by fans of "Kobe." I believe one of those fans was convicted of harassment.

[BlooInBloo]

8. I don't totally disagree with you, but...

... um, it's the defene's JOB to be "extremely sympathetic to the basketball star".

All in all, I'm not sure how much I would want to restrict a defendant's right to defend himself - that seems like a pretty fundamental right to me... Which of those examples you gave turned out to be false, btw?

In ANY case, why do you call it "Kobe Bryant's playbook", instead of "Kobe Bryant's white lawyer's playbook"? Do you actually think it was Kobe's idea to do those things?

[niyad]

13. you were fortunate in not being inundated with the story when it was

happening. if kobe bryant did not want his attorney trashing the young woman, crucifying her in the press, he could have said NO. He could have told his "fans" who were threatening the young woman NOT to do so in his name, but he didn't. I could go on and on, because this story took up reams of newsprint and hours of television "news" time.

another thing that left an odd taste was the fact that he apparently had to buy his wife's presence by his side with that enormous rock. I guess for the fans, it was okay that he was, at the very least, an admitted adulterer.

[Evergreen Emerald]

14. There is a difference between defending himself

and spreading lies to vilify the victim.

He did it through his attorney.

[LostinVA]

122. Exactly -- excellent point

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

17. The whole mess violated the "rape shield" laws. Her identity was

leaked.

That was the first, big injustice and violation of the law.

After that, it was down hill all the way.

[BlooInBloo]

19. Ah yes. I do recall that. Thanks!

[LostinVA]

123. She was literally followed from state to state and harassed at

jobs she took... and was then fired because of said harassment. She was called a skank and a whore because she had sex with two different guys in a week. Etc. Sickening.

[opiate69]

124. No..

she was called a skank and a whore because she falsely accused a wealthy man of rape in an effort to extort a large sum of cash.

[Evergreen Emerald]

128. no.

she was called a skank and a whore because she had the nerve to assume that in America justice prevails no matter what is in your pocket book.

They sure showed her. And they showed him.

[opiate69]

132. Hmm...

I guess I must have missed the part of the trial where Bryant was convicted... Oh that's right he never was because... persuing a criminal case against him was ging to be too traumatic for her, but persuing the civil (cha-ching) case wouldn't have been.. hence the out-of-court settlement.. yeah... no reason what-so-ever to assume she was lying.

[Evergreen Emerald]

135. yeah! You got it!

He was not convicted because the defense creamed the victim in the press. She was threatened, and her reputation was destroyed. She did not get her day in court. The justice system did not work because the citizens of our nation prefer that victims shut up and spread um.

Why would that be ok with you? Wouldn't you want to hear all of the facts in an unbiased, fair manner? Do you want those who allege and suspects vilified in the press?

Criminal versus civil: the press stopped hounding her after the charges were dismissed. The people stopped threatening her after the charges were dismissed. Is it less traumatic? Absolutely. Was it justice? not much.

[opiate69]

136. as I remember it....

the decision to continue with the civil case was made within 24 hours of the decision to drop the criminal case.. not much time for the media circus to calm down.

[Clark2008]

157. Just a note: Rape shield laws are different in every state

Some have them, some don't - but the fact remains that in EVERY state, if a reporter gets the name, however, he/she gets it, he/she can print it under the First Amendment.

I actually agree with that - and I'm a woman. I think by withholding the name of the rape victim, we perpetuate this belief that it's the victim's fault and that it's not like any other crime in which the victim is always named, such as murder or robbery.

Just my opinion.

[wakeme2008]

4. She was a drunk stripper that made up a story

the SBI report showed that.

[Evergreen Emerald]

6. what exactly did the SBI report show?

[wakeme2008]

7. No DNA from the team, no traces of recent sexual activity (condoms leave

trace evidence behind) all was in the report from the NC SBI report.

[FreakinDJ]

10. Plus the photos

Plus the photographs taken during her dance prove the bruises that were being attributed to the rape were present when she started dancing.

The whole allegation is falling apart

No I don't think SHE is the victim.

[LostinVA]

126. What photos? No one has seen them. Huh?

And yes, she was the damn victim! The ER report says she was raped. Jesus, you people on here amaze me -- you cannot have your own facts, only your own opinions. Regardless of who raped her, she WAS raped. She IS a victim.

[BrownOak]

185. Photos have been shared with at least two media sources..

The Durham Herald Sun ran an article prior to your post about the content of the photos. Subsequent to your post, WRAL has reported on viewing the photos.

I'd also add that "injuries consistent with rape" does not equate to definitely being raped and, even to a greater degree, it certainly does not mean that if an assault took place it happened at that house.

[Evergreen Emerald]

11. You are misinterpreting the report and believing the spin.

I think the treatment of those who allege sexual assault is a good example of how are society is degrading when it comes to the treatment of women and minorities--because of the racist, homophobic, sexist people running our country.

"she is a drunken hooker." That statement says volumes to perpetrators and victims: "The men in our society can use you anyway they want. You just spread um and shut the fuck up."

It is a flat out lie that condoms leave trace evidence.

[opiate69]

15. "It is a flat out lie that condoms leave trace evidence."

And, you can back this assertion up with proof, no?

[Evergreen Emerald]

18. All I can tell you is that

I have worked in LE dealing with sex offenses for a number of years. I have never had a case in which condoms were used where there was trace evidence from the condom.

Lots of things can leave trace evidence, but rarely do. CSI is a TV show.

[opiate69]

20. Uh-huh..

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2194/is_n5_v65/ai_18535197

In an age filled with potentially fatal sexually transmitted diseases, more and more individuals practice safe sex. Even perpetrators of sex crimes have begun to wear condoms.(1) It is not likely that a fear of disease prompts this behavior. Rather, just as a burglar dons gloves to avoid leaving fingerprints, sexual offenders now wear condoms to avoid depositing seminal fluids.

Forensic experts typically identify sexual assault offenders by examining seminal fluid residues for sperm, proteins, blood grouping factors, and DNA profile. When sexual assailants use condoms, however, assuming no leaks or spills, this valuable evidence gets trapped inside the condom, which investigators may never recover. The same can be said for any traces from the victim including vaginal cells, blood, and saliva - that otherwise might have been transferred to the assailant's penis. Nevertheless, when assailants use condoms, they leave behind other valuable evidence.

(snip)

Apparently, you haven't worked in the right areas of LE..

[Evergreen Emerald]

23. It is rare to leave behind trace evidence from a condom

There are many factors involved in whether or not there is any evidence left behind and it is unfortunate. But, when there is evidence, the defense changes from one of "It did not happen," to "there was consent."

[opiate69]

43. Forgive me

if I believe the FBI before an anonymous internet poster who obviously has too much of an emotional investment in the subject to be logical.

[Evergreen Emerald]

71. I will forgive you

[LostinVA]

127. But yet you believe the defense attorney with no questions...

[opiate69]

130. Find one post of mine that backs up your ridiculous assertion

[BrownOak]

184. Except that in this case it's the prosecution

that has been changing their tune.

In the request for the broad DNA search the DA claimed that it would "prove the guilty and clear the innocent." But once it became clear that the players were fully confident that there would be no matches from the DNA testing the DA immediately brought up the issue of condoms.

In the probable cause sections of the two search warrants, the alleged victim is quoted as saying that she was engaged in a struggle in the bathroom where she was kicked, hit, and strangled. Yet when the records of the security guard's call to 911 and the responding officer's call to dispatch were released stating that the victim appeared to be drunk, the ubiquitous "source close to the investigation" suggests that the alleged victim may have been the subject of a date rape drug.

[FreakinDJ]

24. That doesn't prove any thing

The photos showed she had the bruises before she started dancing

Now how do you explain that

[Evergreen Emerald]

26. She had bruises on her privates before the rape?

How do you know that?

[FreakinDJ]

29. SHE DID NOT HAVE BRUISES ON HER PRIVATES

Where did anyone ever see that?

The reported bruising was on her legs. AND YES those bruises were on her during the dance as shown by the photos the students took.

[Evergreen Emerald]

34. where do you get your information?

This was the whole point of my post. As far as some are concerned: she is a drunken hooker who either got what she wanted or lied about a rape(...why?)

The basis of that opinion is from information received from the defense attorney who is not an unbiased fact-giver. Also at play are stereo-typed ideas of rape and what a victim should be.

I hope the jury can set aside biases that are apparently predominate in our society and view the evidence objectively.

[FreakinDJ]

37. That would be nice

BUT the defense did not fire the first shot

From what i have been witnessing the prosecution and some feminist organisations have been branding all 47 of these students without any facts or information.

What right do they have to demonstrate in front of the students homes demanding they confess????

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

40. Link? to the story that shows "...he prosecution and some feminist

organisations have been branding all 47 of these students without any facts or information."

[LisaL]

79. Well, everyone assumes the black player did not rape her.

The DA didn't even ask for his DNA. So, it would be 46, not 47, really.

[LostinVA]

129. "Feminist Organizations" Oh -- transparent as glass

And,m she was raped. I think I believe ER medical personnel before defense attorneys.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FreakinDJ]

49. Racist comments ????

If you don’t like Racist comments you should not propagate them.

But here is an article addressing the photo graphs

Meanwhile, several defense attorneys on Friday allowed The Herald-Sun to view --but not copy or take pictures of -- time-stamped photographs they say an unidentified student took during and immediately after the alleged rape victim danced at the 610 N. Buchanan Blvd. party the night of March 13-14.

According to the defense attorneys, the photos discredit the dancer's claim that her audience grew rowdy and aggressive with her. They also disprove the woman's timeline of events, lawyers believe.
Here is what the pictures show and the time:

11:02 p.m.: Students are hanging out in a living room, apparently waiting for the dancer to arrive. Most have drinking cups in their hands.

Midnight: The dancer is sprawled on her stomach on the floor, as a second dancer stands over her. Students are watching the show but not grabbing or attempting to touch the women. Bruises are clearly visible on the legs and thighs of the alleged victim.

12:01:16: The second dancer is lying on her back on the floor with the alleged rape victim kneeling over her.

12:03:57: The dancers are leaving the room after performing for four minutes. The photo clearly shows that the alleged victim left one of her shoes behind as she departed.

12:10:39: One of the Duke students apparently is passed out on the floor, his head leaning against a sofa, a crushed beer can at his side.

12:30:12: The alleged victim is on the back porch. She has a shoe only on her left foot as she appears to smile and apparently tries to get back inside.

Although the precise time of the alleged rape apparently has not been established, defense lawyers contend it was before this photo was made.

12:31:26: The alleged victim appears to be stumbling down the back steps of the house.

12:37:58: A series of photos beginning at this time shows the woman lying on her left side on the back porch, seemingly passed out or asleep. Pink splotches are on a wrought-iron railing beside her.

Defense lawyers believe the splotches were from undried nail polish the woman applied in a bathroom between 12:10 and 12:30 a.m., during which no time-stamped photos were taken. So, the defense lawyers say, that indicates she was manicuring her nails at the only time a rape could have occurred in the house.

Defense lawyers say the alleged victim was helped to the second dancer's car. The second dancer then got into a conversation with the lacrosse players, which included hurling racial insults about their manhood, the players told their lawyers.

12:41: The alleged victim is being helped into the car.

12:53: 911 dispatchers get a call about racial slurs being made to two women in the vicinity of the house party.

1:22: Police respond to a 911 call at the Kroger supermarket on Hillsborough Road. According to a communications tape released Thursday, an officer encountered the alleged rape victim there and described her as being "passed out drunk." But the officer said the woman was not in distress and didn't appear to need medical attention.

A police dispatch log then indicates that the dancer showed up at the Duke emergency room at 2:31 a.m. and entered Duke Hospital at 2:45 a.m.

Thomas said the second dancer described her as being highly intoxicated. In addition, the woman never complained about being raped as the two dancers drove away from North Buchanan Boulevard, Thomas quoted the co-dancer as saying.

http://www.herald-sun.com/durham/4-724585.html

Lets try to remain civil and analytical but everyone is entitled to their own opinion here

[LostinVA]

131. All info from the defense... no proof about any of this

People are entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts... which you are doing. Nice smear the victim spin...

Yet another smearing the victim male poster on my Ignore list... unbelievable this is 2006.

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BrownOak]

186. Huh?

First - that information is not from the defense. The defense supplied the photos and the descriptions were provided by the paper, except in those areas that are noted in the article. Are you saying that because the defense supplied the photos that they carry no weight?

Second - other than the description of her being drunk, how exactly is this smearing the victim? Or even better, how exactly is one supposed to defend themselves in this situation if they have been falsely accused? One party or the other is lying here.

[Moosepoop]

80. SHE HAD VAGINAL AND ANAL TRAUMA

Guess where that means the trauma was? Her vagina and anus.
I'm guessing that's where she may have been raped, rather than her legs.

[LisaL]

82. Do you know how she got that trauma?

No one can say with certainty whether she was raped or not based on swelling she had in her private areas.

[Lars39]

84. Well, it sure wasn't from talking out of her ass.

[LisaL]

85. I could really make a bad joke of it, but I won't.

Do you realize the second stripper present at the scene claims she does not believe the rape allegations, according to the defense lawyer?

[Lars39]

90. 'according to the defense lawyer' ....says it all.

[LisaL]

91. I knew you would say that. I guess the defense lawyer

is flat out lying about their interview of the second stripper then?

[Lars39]

93. I don't compulsively keep up with the case.

[LisaL]

95. Well, pardon me, it helps to know what you are discussing, no?

[Lars39]

97. Indeed, it does, lizzy. Indeed it does.

:D

[Moosepoop]

94. That's not what the lawyer said.

The lawyer quoted the second dancer as saying that the alleged victim "never complained about being raped" as the two of them drove away from the party.

So the alleged victim didn't tell the other dancer about it. She didn't say "I was just raped." But she wouldn't get out of the car, and appeared "drunk" and unresponsive to the police officer who arrived. Shock can do that to you.

Stating that someone didn't tell you about being raped is not the same as saying that you don't believe that they were.

Can you produce a quote from the second dancer where she says that she disbelieves that a rape occurred?

[Evergreen Emerald]

103. this is exactly what I mean

the evidence given to the press, and slanted by the defense, to make it appear different than it is. The purpose is not to achieve justice.

[LisaL]

111. Hello? I was not referring to that statement at all. This is

what I was referring to:
"Attorney Bill Thomas says a member of the defense team interviewed the other dancer who performed that night and she "has stated point blank she does not believe this allegation.""
http://www.wral.com/news/8729102/detail.html

[Moosepoop]

189. Uh huh.

A defense lawyer said that someone else said that the second dancer said... :eyes:

[LostinVA]

125. The report didn't say she hadn't had any sexual activity

NO ONE has said that. The defense attorney said something very wily that first sounds like that... but that isn't what he said. ER doctors and nurses reported she was raped.

And, no, condoms do not necessarily leave trace evidence.

Nice job though, totally buying into the spin! You've spread the spin all over rape threads on DU. I'm tired of Reading your "blame the victim" lies... because they aren't opinions, they are falsehoods.

*sigh* another one on my ignore list.

Oh, and love the "drunk stripper" bit. Not a single mom working her way through college.

[FreakinDJ]

144. WRONG AGAIN

Condoms do leave trace evidence. that is why the FBI crime labs have the chemical file of every known brand of condom of file

Nice job - another fine piece of dis-information you have given us

I more likely to believe she was drunk in the parking lot and was scared to lose her kids with a 4th felony conviction and made the whole thing up.

The sex could have also been with her boy friend before she went to her "dancing engagement"

Nice try

[bettyellen]

178. uhm, what felony was she in danger of being arrested for??

or is it more made up BS?
like condoms DO leave evidence. they CAN. but DON'T always.
big difference, fella, all the differnce in the world.

[FreakinDJ]

12. Universities would be a great place to start re-education programs

Isn't it ironic how history sometimes repeats itself, except in this case in a complete racial role reversal.

http://home.earthlink.net/~jamiranda/whyLie.htm

http://www.courttv.com/archive/greatesttrials/scottsboro/trials.html

On the night of March 25, 1931, a deputy sherriff posse in Paint Rock, Alabama stopped a freight train travelling from Chattanooga, Tennessee. They arrested nine young black men on the train. They also found two young white women -- Victoria Price and Ruby Bates -- dressed in men's overalls.

Price claimed she was raped by six of the young men, while Bates claimed she was raped by the other three.

The nine young men, from Chattanooga and various parts of Georgia, ranged in age from 12 to 20. They were roped together and taken to the Jackson County Jail in Scottsboro, Alabama. That night, a mob gathered outside the jail, but the governor sent in the National Guard to protect the young men who would come to be known as the Scottsboro Boys.

In the midst of a firestorm generated by the womens' allegations, a crowd of ten thousand came to town for the trials of the men. Judge A.E. Hawkins tried to figure out who would represent the nine defendants. Chattanooga attorney Stephen Roddy -- unfamiliar with Alabama law and drunk as well -- stepped forward to say he'd "help out" with the defense. Local attorney Milo Moody agreed to assist Roddy. The two had 25 minutes to meet with their clients before the trial began.

Price and Bates told the story of their alleged rapes to a shocked all-male, all-white jury. The defense barely put together a case, and any hopes of acquittals were dashed when the defendants -- only four of whom knew each other when arrested -- begin accusing each other. The jury deliberated for two hours before returning the first of the Scottsboro verdicts.

All nine men were found guilty, and eight were sentenced to the electric chair -- only Roy Wright, 12 at the time of the alleged rapes, was spared when his sentencing ended in a mistrial. The date of their executions was set: July 10, 1931.

"Bates backed up Carter's story and said that the black men never raped her or Price, never touched them, never even talked to them. She made the accusations, she said, because Price told her they would otherwise be thrown in jail for vagrancy.

Associate prosecutor Wade Wright closed by telling jurors to show "that Alabama justice can't be bought with Jew money from New York!" After a night of cross-burnings and death threats, Leibowitz completed his own case by boldly telling the jury to give the defendants "acquittal or the chair."

The jury's verdict in the second trial: guilty, with another death sentence."

...and then there is this movie (Rosewood) with this review,
http://tinyurl.com/kfy7h

"An estimated 40 to 150 blacks were killed in Rosewood by an all-white lynch mob from the neighboring town of Sumner, where a white woman falsely claimed she'd been assaulted by a black man."

"assaulted" = raped and beaten in the movie. In the movie she was actually cheating on her husband with another man.

One of these days, man-hating America really needs to start prosecuting women who lie about crimes: rape, domestic violence, sexual harassment, etc., and the penalty for falsely accusing a felony really needs to be more than a misdemeanor to stop this nonsense.

Colleges and universities would be a great place to start re-education programs, starting with all the gender feminist bigots. Until then, the reality is that men are just 2nd class citizens who are targeted with sexist hatred in there homes, colleges, universities, etc.

[noamnety]

47. interesting stories

All of those stories have race as a key component, at least in the way they're presented.

I would suggest that the link that ties them together with the current one is not that America has turned against men, but rather that courts tend to side against those with the least power, whether you are the accused or the accuser. These stories you referenced should serve as evidence that the court system is broken, when it comes to rape trials. Even the language in this thread demonstrates that. We can see her defined as a "hooker." Isn't she a stripper/dancer, not a prostitute? More accurately, isn't she a mother and a college student? What's the purpose of using the word hooker here, other than to convince people that she's not a class of woman that can legally be raped?

[FreakinDJ]

52. sign of the times

I have no problem with what she does for a living. More of a sign of the times.

And should have no bearing on the case or our rush to judgment. I am all in favor of letting Justice run its course rather then persecute either side of this case in the media for political gain

[noamnety]

60. letting justice run its course

I'm looking at how justice ran its course in those three stories you posted. Hmmmm.

[FreakinDJ]

63. Nice to think the we might have progressed

Nice to think the we might have progressed from such heinous actions as those.

But here we have gender biased (reversed) coupled with racial biased (reversed) to generate political fervor. Really a moral high ground question but I wouldn’t blame blacks in America for wanting a little payback for past transgressions. Just that I don’t believe it accomplishes their ultimate goals in the long run.

[noamnety]

68. I don't think I made my point clear

It's not a matter of accomplishing goals, or wanting payback; those aren't of any concern to me at all.

Some of us have come face to face with the harsh reality that in a rape trial, the thing that's actually on trial is not the guilt or innocence of the accused. "Justice being served" is not part of women's reality, nor part of black reality, not when it comes to rape.

[FreakinDJ]

78. I understand

I understand you clearly I think…

Rape has been redefined to some thing that most of us would not consider rape at all. Rape shield laws have been implemented improperly at times causing the falsely accused to suffer needlessly. Here is one highly documented case…

People v. Jovanovic

http://www.reason.com/0202/co.cy.excluded.shtml


Now we have a case where there is an abundance of emotional / political fuel waiting to be ignited. I believe several news articles have come out recently citing the DA’s political motivation in moving forward with this case even with the negative DNA results

[noamnety]

138. That's not exactly what I'm saying, but the link is interesting

I'm saying that even in the CLASSIC rape case - a stranger grabs a woman off the street, using a weapon, rapes her - this idea of letting justice run its course isn't working. Even in the most extreme cases of sheer violence - where there should be NO question of consent, the woman gets put on trial for what she was wearing, for why she was outside, where was she going, why was she going there, has she ever accused anyone in the past of raping her, and this is not something that happens in any other sort of crime. It's not a phenomenon that a straight white male would understand.

In the links that you sent, the prevailing theme is that if a woman has been into kinky sex in the past, that invalidates any "rape" in the future. What other crimes are like that? I can't remember if I read it on DU or somewhere else, (gosh, this thread is so long, it may have even been right here), but someone pointed out if you are mugged, this never happens. Today I gave money to two people in Detroit. Does that mean if I'm mugged in Detroit tomorrow, that should be used as evidence against me? I'm comfortable giving money to strangers, I make a habit of it, even, so it's okay that a stranger took money from me?

[FreakinDJ]

140. Rape Shield Laws

Quote-
“the woman gets put on trial for what she was wearing, for why she was outside, where was she going, why was she going there, has she ever accused anyone in the past of raping her,”
-unquote

You really should read up on Rape Shield Laws. None of that, not 1 iota would be permissible in court being that every state of the Union has adopted rape shield laws.

§ 60.42 Rules of evidence; admissibility of evidence of victim's sexual conduct in sex offense cases.

Evidence of a victim's sexual conduct shall not be admissible in a prosecution for an offense or an attempt to commit an offense defined in article one hundred thirty of the penal law unless such evidence:

Here is an example of mis-uses

http://www.samsloan.com/jovanovi.htm

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

146. Rape shield laws can be circumvented when a high price and powered

defense team "leaks" the name of the alleged victim, and proceeds to leak more and more and more about the woman involved.

When a judge can't rein in the offending team, as in the Kobe case, the rape shield laws mean nothing in fact.

[FreakinDJ]

149. You should have read the link I provided

on the mis-uses of rape shield laws

I know almost nothing about the Kobi case as I didn't follow it at all. The only thing I know is she had sex with her boyfriend right after she had sex with Kobi Bryant.

[LisaL]

156. Rape shield laws also don't cover the time close to the rape,

if the defense claims the injuries were caused by someone else rather than a defendant. And it has nothing to do with high price lawyers-those are the rules.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FreakinDJ]

22. Anyone that can retain a woody

Anyone that can retain a woody while slapping some one into submission deserves 10 to 15 behind bars.

The problem is when there is no physical violence just accusations of threats.

If you tell your girlfriend your going to break up with her is she doesn't have sex - that is considered rape.

She has the right to walk away just and the man should have the right to walk away from the relationship if he feels they are not sexually compatible. But if she submits then the woman retains the right to change her mind and claim rape.

Some thing is just wrong with that double standard

[pinto]

42. Just a point. "If she submits" implies force. And implies rape.

Most of those specialist types on the subject say rape isn't about the sex act, it's about the control, the power. Actually a crime of violence, i.e. assault.

Just a 2 cents.

[FreakinDJ]

145. Agreed SUBMIT does imply rape

But here again we are describing her frame of mind during or just prior to her consenting to the act of sex.

If she has sex with her boyfriend because he stated he might "Break up" because she doesn't have sex with him enough, just WHEN does it become wrong.

When she looks back in retrospect and decides she was "coerced"

Or at the exact moment in time when she agrees to have sex - she also has the choice to say "NO"

The fact that the scenareo I have descrobed in considered rape is a prime example of what is wrong with rape laws. How could you prove she changed her mind. Would it even matter in a court of law.

[northzax]

21. the players never asked for media attention

do you expect their defense attorneys to simply sit back and do nothing? And yes, the media attention is because of who the players are, and the university they represent. So they (at least the 42 who are not accused of rape, whichever ones those are) are victims of the media attention as well. It's a big deal for them as well. And it will follow them for the rest of their lives, even the ones who didn't do anything. of course they're fighting back, there are 42 innocent people being called rapists. The headline on the New York Times accuses you of a hideous crime that you didn't do, and you don't fight back?

by the way, and interesting sidenote, I have a good friend who hada job interview last week in Paris, and one of the questions they asked him (he went to Duke for grad school, as did a lot of my friends) was 'did you play lacrosse?' so it's a big deal for a lot of people.

Everything the defense has said, publically, the DA has let stand. they said that there would be no DNA, and they were right. so far, there is no evidence that has been made public against them. keep that in mind.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

27. I guess it is like political campaigns then. If fighting "back" includes

smearing the other person, that seems to be acceptable.

[northzax]

180. and there has been no smearing

of the players, at all. why even on this board, not one person has called them evil, or selfish, or rapists. it's amazing, really, that not one comment has said anything about their character or behaviour, not one! the tolerance is lovely.

there's plently of smearing on both sides, don't you think? the difference, of course, is that the players are identified by name, the accuser isn't.

[Evergreen Emerald]

28. The problem is that the prosecution is bound by law...

...Not to give out information. In our state prosecutors could be disbarred for giving out information to the press. They can only give out the charges and basis of the charges.

The reason the prosecution cannot respond is that it is improper. It is also improper for the defense attorney to be spreading lies and misinformation.

[LisaL]

77. Really? Well, the DA must have not known this because

he gave quite a few interviews on the matter.

[northzax]

181. and everything the defense lawyers have said

has proven to be borne out by the facts so far. They said there would be no DNA, and LO! there was no DNA. They said the accuser was intoxicated and acting erratically, and LO! the police said the same thing.

If the DA has evidence, there is nothing stopping him from releasing it to the public. there is nothing compelling him to, either, it should be noted.

[northzax]

182. not really

everything the defense lawyers have said is perfecly defensible, and has been borne out by the facts so far.

[cali]

25. I have very conflicted feelings

about this whole situation. On the one hand, I have an instinctive sympathy for the woman. OTH, the evidence is mounting that there may not have been a rape. As far as the defense goes, of course they're going to put forward every bit of evidence favorable to their clients.

[FreakinDJ]

32. THOSE POOR STUDENTS ARE BEING VICTIMISED

Have you seen all the protestors outside of the home shouting for them to confess.

Lets hear the evidence before we pass judgement. But from every thing that has been presented in their defense it certainly appears she made the whole thing up to avoid being prosecuted for drunk and disorderly. The police were originally called because she was in some one elses car in the store parking lot

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

35. So much compassion for one side, none for the other. n/t

[Lars39]

38. Seems that closing ranks against the police has a price.

[NaturalHigh]

191. Refusing to talk to police was their right...

and it was the smart thing to do. Check out the Bill of Rights.

[genie_weenie]

195. Refusing to talk to the police is NOT a right

you have when convicted of... uh I mean accused of Rape. Everyone here at the DU simply knows that if you have nothing to hide you should be willing to take to those nice men in their crisp uniforms (I hear they even have some women now, imagine!)

I hate this gif :sarcasm: or do I???

[LisaL]

73. The prosecution certainly wasn't quiet. The DA Nifong went

on giving quite a few interviews in which he stated that he believes she was raped in the bathroom, etc.
Then he claimed the DNA will identify suspects. So, now that's DNA is bad, does he have no suspects? Hell no, he still wants to charge someone. Who is he going to charge?
Apparently she picked some people-how was that ID done? The names and photos of the players were all over the place. They had "wanted" posters asking for information. If someone had raped her, wouldn't you want a right person to be charged?

[aikoaiko]

31. It sounds like you've already prejudged this case.

...but for the alleged victim.

I think we should wait and listen to the facts as they become known. Of course, this is a forum and we are as prone to wild speculation as any defense attorney, press member, or freeper for that matter.

[Evergreen Emerald]

39. I don't know that I have yet

My point is that there should be a fair determination of guilt or innocence. And it should not be based on lies fed by the defense in an attempt to taint a jury pool. It should not be based on stereo-types misinformation about victims and how they should act or not act. It should not be based on the fact that the victim is only a drunk-dancer.

[cali]

50. Actually, your use of language indicates

that you have made up your mind. You refer repeatedly to a rape having taken place. You fail to use the word alleged. You also repeatedly accuse the defense of lying. I don't see that what you're doing is a whole lot different than what you accuse those supporting the accused of doing.

[aikoaiko]

51. Let's take a look at a paragraph in your original post.

First, let me say that I completely agree that " ...there should be a fair determination of guilt or innocence. And it should not be based on lies fed by the defense in an attempt to taint a jury pool. It should not be based on stereo-types misinformation about victims and how they should act or not act. It should not be based on the fact that the victim is only a drunk-dancer. "

But when a good point is accompanied by a blantant judgement of reality that is far beyond what anyone can know from the media, it diminishes the good point.

I edited a paragraph from your original post to show how it might have looked if you weren't already biased. Its not perfect but you'll get my point.

from the original post
The defense is making an effort to vilify the alleged victim in the press or start the defense of their clients because the press is going after them. It could be that They see what works and emulate it: some people speculate that Coby Bryant's victim eventually refused to cooperate with the prosecution and they had to drop the charges because of the treatment she received by the public. Others think the case was dropped because it was weak. The defense used may be using the press to spread lies and the public bought it were very interested and some believed the defense attorneys. She was threatened but that doesn't have much to do with the defense , her reputation may beruined but if she lied then reputation does deserve a reevaluation, her life in turmoil because she thought there was justice in America and that just because a guy was famous did not mean he could use her or because she made false allegations or her allegations might not be provable. She was wrong about possibly thinking that a righteous claim of rape would not be met with skepticism or that false allegations wouldn't lead to retribution.

I don't know if she was raped. Most people who say they have been raped, actually have been, but there has been some bizzaro false allegations too.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

53. I think we're straying from the topic. Unless we want to put the OP on

trial for how she refers to the alleged rape.

I'm guessing you have a horse in this race too.

Let me guess, no rape, innocent athletes.

[aikoaiko]

55. Reading is fundamental: I said I don;t know.

Her point is to not smear alleged victims, but in her same post she assumed much about the alleged rapists and if they are innocent, which I don't know and have no position on, would constitute the same type of vilification she condemns.

My horse is confronting hypocracy (under critical posts). How's your horse?

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

58. Your words say no no no, but your tone says yes, yes, yes.

Hypocrisy does need to be confronted.

Is spelling fundamental as well, just curious?

[aikoaiko]

65. yeah, I should be a better speller.

I guess you have nothing of substance to add to the subthread except to smear me as someone who believes the defense and disbelieves the accuser.

By the way, "Your words say no no no, but your tone says yes, yes, yes" is what rapists say.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

67. Oh, I guess "reading is fundamental" was a compliment for me?

'By the way, "Your words say no no no, but your tone says yes, yes, yes" is what rapists say.'

Ironic, isn't it? Totally different context however.


Your responses on this thread seem planned to undermine one pov and not the other.

[aikoaiko]

101. After this you can have the last word....

... but you are correct that in this thread I chose to undermine the point of view of the OP because I thought s/he was engaging in some of the very acts she condemns.

Truthfully, I'm inclined to believe the woman, but I recognize that it does no good to any rape victim to jump to conclusions or rush to judgment in believing or disbelieving the accusation. The evidence so far is ambiguous. Once it has been vetted in the court of law I'll probably make my own judgment.

[cali]

57. It's not straying from the subject.

It's germane to it. Is the OP pressing an agenda? Is she doing what she's accusing others of doing? Pretty on topic, if you ask me.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

62. She isn't acting as a public person, a prosecutor, a defense attorney

or anything in this situation.

That's the difference, IMHO.

C Ya

[Lars39]

54. Are those 2 pics part of your sig line?

[aikoaiko]

56. Nope those are two women who likely fabricated their tales of rape.

[Lars39]

61. And this has what to do with this case?

[aikoaiko]

102. see # 64 -- i replied to the wrong post

[aikoaiko]

64. two reminders of rushing to judgment that didn't turn out so well

The sentence before the pictures puts the pics in context.

[LisaL]

154. What exactly should it be based on?

The woman makes an accusation. There is no genetic evidence supporting an accusation. But that is not enough to exonerate anyone, according to the DA.
What would be the best defense strategy? Or do you just expect them all to plead guilty so they don't smear the woman?

[Neil Lisst]

44. it remains to be seen if she's the victim or the team is

There have been a number of reported facts, and IMO, they suggest she was not sexually assaulted at the house with the athletes.

Her timeline, her wearing apparel when found, and a variety of other factors all suggest the time period after she left the house is unaccounted for and unexplained.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

46. Hard to imagine a rape victim's sense of time and ability to recount it

being impaired. (mild sarcasm to make a point)

PTSD. Trauma does amazingly awful things to the brain.

That aspect of it alone shouldn't be mistaken for dishonesty on her part.

[Neil Lisst]

48. the pieces simply don't fit, her story notwithstanding

The time lapse from when she left the house until when the 911 call was made, until the time she showed up in the parking lot, until the time she showed up at the hospital - is a long and largely unexplained one.

When did she change clothes, after having left the athletes' house?

The time that passed, the change of clothes, the way she communicated with those who first found her, and the impressions they had of her - all suggest she wasn't sexually assaulted by that team.

There is the possibility something happened to her following the dancing gig, but that it didn't involve the team.

[LisaL]

70. If they are going to charge people based on her statements,

saying trauma does amazingly awful things to the brain is not the best way to go, don't you think?
If she has no sense of time and no ability to recount it, how do you suppose she can identify her attackers?

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

72. Trauma does do awful things to a person, to the brain.

That is simply true, a truth I live with all the time. I have PTSD.

If that were to disqualify me from ever being able to recount anything, that wouldn't be reasonable.

The facts are far more complex.

[LisaL]

74. Yea, sure. You want to have your cake and eat it too.

On one hand, she can not recall what had happened to her correctly because she was traumatized. Yet on the other hand, she should be able to make an ID.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

75. That's the answer. Let them eat cake!! n/t

[LisaL]

76. In prison?

If the DA is going to the grand jury, presumably he is going to charge someone.
Based on what evidence, I would like to know.
The DA demanded DNA from all 46 players by court order. He claimed DNA will identify suspects. When it did not, he is still going to proceed. How? Who did she identify? Why did he need the DNA from all 46 people if she identified the suspects? Assuming she was raped, I would at least hope the correct perps were charged.

[Evergreen Emerald]

81. you don't know what the evidence is

You only know what the defense is telling you the evidence is. They have a vested interest in making sure what the public hears helps their clients.

[LisaL]

83. And prosecution does not? Again, Nifong went on and on

how he believes this woman was raped, at the house, in the bathroom, by three men.

[Evergreen Emerald]

87. I hope not.

The prosecution's job is to do justice.
The defense's job is to get their client off.

[LisaL]

89. Somehow, I doubt that's what prosecution wants in this case.

And usually I am very pro-prosecution.

[Neil Lisst]

150. It's not what she said or when she said it.

It's the totality of the timeline and the other facts. She was not found until well after the alleged event, and she wasn't wearing the same clothes.

[YouthInAsia]

59. If think those guys need an apology. They had to cancel t heir

entire season and their coach was fired. Aloing with that they have been completely vilified in the press. There was no DNA from ANY of the players found on the suposed "rape" victim. I think she's full of shit. period. But the DA is running for reelection in a heavily black district so he's continuing to pursue this case regardless of the complete lack of evidence. I think its unfair.

[LostinVA]

133. She was raped -- Duke Hospital ER medical personnel

stated she was... the quotations around rape in your post are very, very nasty. She was a victim of rape, regardless of who the rapists were, and deserves compassion for that. Your posts on many threads have shown none.

[YouthInAsia]

134. sorry, but if she falsly accused these guys of rape, she

deserves no compassion from me.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

66. If we're talking about "vilification in the press",

Surely there's been even more of it directed at the accused lacrosse players than at their accuser?

Oh, and point of terminology: the *alleged* perpetrators aren't talking. We don't know that there *are* any perpetrators as yet; I think it's a sufficiently important distinction, and one that gets blurred sufficiently often, to be worth picking up on every time it gets missed out.

Also, I didn't follow the Kobe Bryant case (I'm English; it wasn't as widely reported over here) but you seem awfully convinced that he was guilty given that he wasn't convicted.

I agree that the current low rate of conviction for rape is shamefully low, and that the treatment of alleged victims in the press is quite possibly one of the contributory factors, but I think the moral to be drawn is "the press shouldn't report rape allegations so luridly, especially not before the trial", not "the defence should refrain from putting their side of the story".

[LisaL]

69. Does "innocent until proven guilty" concept seems

foreign to you? I am confused, cause usually it's a big thing here.
Has anyone proven the allegations to be true, or even showed any evidence to support the allegations at this point?

[Evergreen Emerald]

86. In a court of law

it is innocent until proven guilty. In reality it is: in the public eye--vilify the accuser until there is not a possibility of proof. There is misinformation abundant in the press regarding what rape evidence should be present, and what evidence there actually is.

We don't know what the evidence is. What we do know is that the defense has turned this female into a drunk-lying-slut before our very eyes. And the only evidence we have is what the defense (who is paid big bucks) wants you to hear. And the defense has many convinced that a rape will leave certain evidence, and if it does not, there is proof that she is a liar. That is what I am suggesting.

[LisaL]

88. Fair enough. If you have a right to assume she is telling the truth,

then I have just as much right to assume she is not.
And I would say prosecution certainly contributed very much to this story, first by claiming DNA evidence will identify the suspects, then by saying they do not need DNA evidence at all.
And people are beating pans and pots outside the lacrosse house, for crying out loud. Who exactly have been vilified by the press here?

[Evergreen Emerald]

99. or better yet...

...let the story come out without creating a persona in the public eye of the victim as a lying-slut.

[Egalitariat]

92. Are you upset those players are getting smeared in the press as well?

Or just the woman?

We don't know who is lying here. One side is lying for sure. Nobody but those involved know the truth.

I agree with you the woman should not be smeared, but I was surprised your post did not address the smearing of the men.

[Evergreen Emerald]

98. I have not heard of any smearing of the men

I heard there were allegations against them. And from then on I have only heard nasty stuff about the victim or the defense attorneys giving out propaganda. I am not saying it did not happen, but I have not heard it.

I certainly would not want my male relatives vilified in the press without a fair hearing of the evidence. But, that is for a different post.

The point of my post is this (I will say it again): like the Kobi Bryant case, the defense is feeding to the press selective, biased, possibly untrue, information in an attempt to define the victim harshly in the public eye, thereby assuring an unfair determination of the case. Either, scaring her into avoiding prosecution, like in the kobi bryant case, or by tainting the jury pool, like in the Michael Jackson case.

They are giving misinformation, they are giving "facts" about what the evidence SHOULD be in a rape case (ie trace evidence if condoms were used), and what the evidence DOES show.

Remember the Michael Jackson? The mother of the victim was reamed in the press (and in the trial). The case became about the mother's behavior--when it should have been about Jackson's behavior.


The consequence: a chilling effect on reporting rapes. A society where women are not respected. A society were a victim of rape is labeled nothing but a drunk-lying...

[genie_weenie]

108. You haven't been listening

multiple fliers have been distributed with pictures of all 46 White players (43 of which must be innocent, whatever the other 3 did), they were verbally attacked for using their CONSTITUTIONAL rights of no self incrimination, vigil after vigil, they've been called poster boys and evidence of the racist, sexist, white privilege" which still exists and must be ruthlessly crushed...

[genie_weenie]

96. guilty guilty guilty la la la la la la la

I mean why even hire a lawyer if you have nothing to hide? :shrug:

I honestly can not understand the attitude of some people. Simply because of the allegation we need to suspend the only thing which keeps the State from swooping in and detaining thousands? It sounds like the Soviet system, your chage is so bad (treason against the party) you options are: Death if you deny and Hard Labor if you come to see the error of your ways and repent.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/anderson/anderson129.html

[Evergreen Emerald]

100. I am not sure I understand Ms. genie_weenie

Are you suggesting that if they do not vilify the victim in the press, they don't get a fair trial? Are you suggesting that if they can't spew lies to the press or say things about the victim--that they could never get in at trial--they cannot get a fair hearing? You are suggesting that the system does not work. I am suggesting that this should not be part of the system.

[opiate69]

104. You keep referring to "lies"

yet, your anecdotal alleged evidence notwithstanding, you have provided absolutely no evidence that any of the defense's claims are not true.

[Evergreen Emerald]

105. "blathering?"

I thought we could be adults and discuss an issue that is so prominent in media today. I did not realize that people like you would become so ugly. Please, if you cannot carry on a discussion without becoming mean, don't respond to me at all.

[opiate69]

106. edited, and my apologies....

however, you yourself racheted up the snark level in this thread with your "CSI is a TV show" comment.

[Evergreen Emerald]

110. Thanks

:)

[genie_weenie]

107. The US Legal system doesn't work, never has...

You are right this is being tried in the open forum by the Media, but the prosecutor Nifong has used the same tactics as the defense, he's chastised the players for getting lawyers (why get them if you're innocent), possibly sending out fake emails fishing for information, declaring that a trial is a fait accompli.

But, the men have been slandered pretty roundly.

Are they guilty? No. Did they do it? Maybe. Has the State proven it? No. And let's even say 3 men raped her, that means 43 INNOCENT men have been hounded by "Take Back the Night" vigils, State inspection, DNA submission, having their season canceled, being called rapists and racists. Doesn't seem right to me.

I, simply, have no faith in the State or it's bogus legal system. And what's worse is the state does not, nor NEVER has given justice in a single case. The police and State's attorney's don't stop crimes (except morality violations but that is a different topics).

No, they merely collect little bits of data, put on a big show, and lauds itself for doing Justice.

It a cheap panacea which is forced down the throats of victims. And citizens have been swallowing it forever.

So, in the end "True Justice" will never be found in this case, and more men and women will suffer for it...

[Evergreen Emerald]

113. Well said GW

[genie_weenie]

117. Keep Fighting, Double E

I respect your opinions and fight! Keep it up.

and it's Mr, BTW. Gene not Jean...

[Evergreen Emerald]

120. oops

sorry. And thanks.

[BrownOak]

192. Great post, but what's the alternative

Seriously, even if the gap between the poor and the middle class was eliminated, even if we could magically erase our history of hate and the violence that we've perpetrated upon each other based on race, religion or gender, even if we reached that point you cannot account for the violence inherent in man. There's always going to be crime to some degree.

I do agree with you on the sideshow though. Obviously we could lessen the extent of crime if we didn't view the lower economic level of our society as something that can be contained like so much trash dumped into a giant compactor of hopelessness. What goes on in there we don't care about, just so long as it stays in there. If it pops out and touches us we decry it for touching us and move it to a special pile so it never happens again, patting ourselves on the back the whole time. But we don't stop to think about what would have happened if instead of packing it into that pit of hopelessness it was allowed to see the sun.

Hope is a good thing... maybe the best of things.

[genie_weenie]

194. The issue of Crime goes to your outlook on Man

I see you believe in the inherent violence in Man and on a biological level I concur, but man is not a Siamang or alligator. I agree with Dr. Zinn's viewpoint that hatred and many of the evils in Man are learned or forced into people (from their parents, religion, biased history and so forth) I discount an a priori inherent evil in Man.

Okay so what do we do? First we must stop allowing the State to play us to "it's" advantage. The State and the Wealthy have always worked hand-in-hand. What to do after that I'm not sure, but right now, it's pretty obvious the State doesn't care about it's citizens as much as it cares about the tax dollars it doesn't make from people who grow "illegal crops" or distill their own liquor. But, then the State needs that money in order to curb the immoral behavior of consenting adults (you know... the dirrty sex acts).

And I don't agree with those who say remove the State and all hell will break loose, because you'll have removed a deterrent for people to fear. Those are the same arguments once used saying the rise of Atheism or the non-strict following of the bible will allow all sorts of evils and immorality. It didn't happen then (I certainly didn't go about the Devil's work, once I removed the yoke of Christianity).

Edit to include following text: The US Government has, since 1783, been slowly eradicating your rights. Certainly, there have been watershed years, at which time more destruction was done to the rights of Americans, the following come to mind: 1786, 1794, 1841, 1861-1865, 1876, 1894, 1914, 1917-1918, 1932, 1953 and 2000.

But, the tracks have been laid for years and it seems only under the * Junta, who like none before him abuses this power out in the open and with unabashed glee, does anyone care to take notice.

The State does not like you, the State will not help you, the State cares only about how much it can squeeze from you (not just monetary) before you are ground into fertilizer for the next batch of fresh meat...

[noiretextatique]

109. what did you expect?

you obviously expected more, but perhaps you haven't been here long enough. there was a guy here who claimed that rape was "normal" for men because of their biological makeup. he wasn't banned until he posted a gang rape fantasy in a thread about an acutal, factual rape. another guy here used to love to post in any thread remotely about rape to whine about a supposed false accusation he suffered over 20 years ago. he always made himself out to be a bigger victim than any real victim of rape. something tells me he was probably lying anyway. poor guys...she asked for it anyway.
:hi: welcome to du...a microcosm of america, where rape, the epidemic, is routined excused away, yet false accusation, the minor problem, is the BIG issue. it's a lot like racism, sexism, etc...the reverse is always more problematic than the norm.
in this case, the facts are not clear, but like you, i will err on the side of the norm until the facts are clearer.

[Evergreen Emerald]

112. powerful post.

[LisaL]

114. A minor problem? If someone falsely accused you, I bet

you wouldn't think that was a minor problem.
Considering someone can spend years in prison for a crime they did not commit, I wouldn't call false allegations a "minor problem".

[opiate69]

115. No shit! Damn.. good post, Lizzy

[noiretextatique]

118. how many right here at DU have been falsely accused vs.

how many have been raped? i would guesstimate that those raped (male and female) outnumber those falsely accused by a vast margin. i would take that to mean rape in america seems to be a huge problem, whereas false accustion is less of a problem. it is a simple matter of logic and proportion, not self-serving emotion and expected privilege. so, i pose this question to you: how many right here at DU have been raped vs. those falsely accused? care to venture a guess as to how lopsided the numbers would be? i already know, so that's how i tend to view these cases: the norm vs. the anamoly.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

147. Well said! In addition, the impact of the rape vs the accusation

is very different.

Much worse for the victim of rape.

Given a history of women being accused of "asking for it," and being demeaned in the process, and given the vulnerability of an actual rape victim, and given the likelihood of a false accusation (I agree it is possible, but not as likely), I say give the alleged victim that little bit of advantage that the shield laws are supposed to afford.

Stop blaming the victim.

[LisaL]

155. Are you serious?

Going in prison for years, perhaps for the end of you life, does not seem like a serious enough impact to you?
If somebody accused you of a crime, and all there was is the word of the person-how would you defend yourself, whether you are innocent or not? Well, not by saying-that person is the most honest and fair individual that's ever lived.

[noiretextatique]

168. i would not say it is worse to be raped than falsely accused

i would say that rape is affects more people than does false accusation, i.e., it is bigger problem than false accusation.

[mondo joe]

172. I would say both are serious and neither should happen.

And one does not excuse the other.

[noiretextatique]

173. but both DO happen, don't they?

and rape happens more often. that does not "excuse" anyone: it's simply the truth.
someone else in this thread mentioned that any case should be judged on its merits...as if that fantasy has ever been a reality. a lot of stuff should not happen that happens all the time, like rape.

[mondo joe]

174. When either happens, they happen to an individual - not a percentage

of a population.

Every case should, in fact, be judged on the merits of the case. And when people fail to do that, that wrong should be pointed out - not simply accepted because, after all, a lot of wrong things happpen.

[noiretextatique]

177. right....eye witness indentification

has been proven to be very unreliable, yet people are still convicted on just that alone...just one example of the injustices that ARE accepted, in spite of the research.
and since this case has yet to be decided, perhaps you should remind those who are already convinced that this is a case of false accusation to wait for the trial...another things that probably should happen more than it actually does.
i just wish someone would provided some statistics about false accusation...perhaps then i would be more conviced that it is a problem that affects as many individuals as rape does.

[mondo joe]

183. Why does the number of people it affects matter to this instance?

If 99.9999% of accusations are legitimate, how does that matter in the 1 case in which it's false?

(Which isn't to say I think this IS a false accusation.)

[genie_weenie]

119. Here comes the story of the Hurricane,

The man the authorities came to blame
For somethin' that he never done.

Mr. B. Dylan (1975)

[FreakinDJ]

141. EXCELENT POST LIZZY

Thanx

[mondo joe]

137. Guilt isn't determined by what OTHER people have done, but

by the evidence against the accused.

No matter the percentage of victims of rape to those falsely accused, the case should be determined on its own merits.

[FreakinDJ]

142. Yes thank you

and why can't intelegent folks merely discuss the issues at hand without turning the whole thing into race/gender biased issues

Given the amount of Female teachers sleeping with students, how long will it be before Statutory Rape charges are leved against a Black Female teacher (hypothetical)

[noiretextatique]

169. guilt most definitely is determined or not by a host of factors

including what other people have routinely gotten away with, who the alleged victims and perpetrators are, and how they are viewed in this society. factors such as gender and race also influence the perception of guilt or innocence. SHOULD is the operative word...each case SHOULD be judged objectively, but few actually are.

[BrownOak]

187. But basically aren't you saying then

that you're judging the case not on the criteria that you SHOULD be using, but rather on the factors which you deem as those that shouldn't be used?

[bliss_eternal]

170. Great points--

I recall a couple of the examples you provided--I'd forgotten about them until you mentioned them, thanks for the memory. LOL!

:hi: noiretblu-- Good to see you!

[noiretextatique]

175. i wish i could forget

but the hits just keep on coming :7 good to see you too :hi:

[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Evergreen Emerald]

151. Actually

I happen to know that the facts presented in the press of the Kobe incident are not accurate. The only two people who truly know what happened that night are Kobe and the female.

I have not heard of McAuliffe, but I do resent the implication, as well as the other implications you espouse. As I said to a previous poster: we are discussing an issue here, of importance to our society. If you cannot discuss it without personal attacks, then don't post at all. If you only have anger and vile insinuations stop posting.

I resent your innuendos and attack. You are competely and utterly wrong.

[LostinVA]

153. You certainly don't know that Kobe is innocent

I happen to know he's guilty. That opinion has as much weight as yours.

Evergreen was not being racist by misspelling Kobe's name -- come on. That's ridiculous. And, she certainly wasn't smearing him as "cheap electronic equipment." Totally silly. You have no right to call another DUer a racist, unless they obviously ARE a racist. Your post is offensive/ Actually, many of your posts are.

People are angry that a rape victim is bi g smeared. Just like the Kobe case. As a rape victim, you should understand that. Regardless of who the rapists were that night, the woman was raped.

[cynatnite]

152. Women often feel intimidated in reporting their rapes...

because of the vilification that goes on.

Thank you for posting this.

[ecstatic]

158. Why do so many whites reach back to the Tawana Brawley case

whenever it comes to a black rape accuser? That is the thing that bugs the hell out of me. She was presumed a liar before the facts even came out. Kept hearing comments from people "hoping" this wasn't just another Tawana Brawley case. Umm, didn't that situation happen over 20 years ago?

[LisaL]

159. History has its way of repeating itself, or so it seems.

[jeffrey_X]

197. What do you mean exactly?

Can you be more specific?

I want to make sure history won't repeat itself if my african american wife gets raped, but is then accused of making it up.

[FredScuttle]

198. History repeating itself

Like 400 years of white men assaulting black women every which possible way and getting away with it? Or does "Tawana Brawley" wipe the slate clean?

[Name removed]

160. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hidden Stillness]

164. Oh--I am Your Oppressor Now!

You are a drunken slut--no?; you are a male-hating lesbian--doesn't work? You are a racist--fake charge? You never read any of the evidence, you appear over and over again on these threads attacking us (now I am the opprssor of males), and you demand I spoon-feed it to you. Confront your own hate and why you attacked me, why you never support the woman. If we all served you forever, you would only attack again. Witnesses described hearing crashing sounds against the wall and her scream, etc., etc., etc., other known victims, the rape kit showed an attack had happened.

FBI studies of interviews conducted in neighborhoods, where people know there will be confidentiality and they will not have to press charges, but only describe accurately for true crime statistics, show that women reoprt rape only about 10% of the time. It is not reported, because women will be ripped to shreds first. If you don't bother to learn what evidence there was, don't demand that people you hate reconstruct it later, when you will only dismiss it then too. "I couldn't believe it. They believed everything that I said," said the rapist, the only true statement.

[opiate69]

165. Wow.....

Decorum (as well as the rules of DU) prevent me from properly responding to such hate and anger.

[LisaL]

162. Oh dear god.

Unfortunately, people are skeptical because women do lie about rape. For instance, Jennifer Wilbanks claimed she was abducted and raped by a hispanic male and white female. I guess using your logic police should have dragged some poor hispanic male in prison for rape, cause it's not possible for a woman to lie?
The fact that some women do lie about it makes it really unfortunate because due to these highly publicized cases other women aren't believed either.
But to send someone in prison for rape, one would need some evidence, based on our criminal justice laws.

[opiate69]

163. well, you know lizzy...

If they had grabbed a random hispanic male and threw him in jail, even though there was no rape, he's a man so he must have done something or other to warrant jail time.

:sarcasm:

[FreakinDJ]

166. One hell of a morality

Yes but when that same Male who is falsely accused is raped in prison then they claim he deserved it. And at the same time will do nothing to aid the plight of men/boys raped in jail.

One hell of a morality

[opiate69]

167. Amazing, isn't it? n/t

[mondo joe]

171. It would be more complicated than that because she's white and the

alleged rapist would be hispanic.

If you are the of the opinion that every case must be decided on its own merits based on the evidence, that makes no difference. But for people who determine guilt based on the race and/or gender of the parties involved, it might pose rather a predicament.

[noiretextatique]

179. men also lie about committing rapes

criminals tend to lie about the crimes they commit. there are host of reason why women (men, and children also) aren't believed when they claim they've been raped. unfortunately, unless a woman is beaten in addition to being raped, sometimes medical tests can only prove the presence of semen. unless the rapist is particularly brutal, rape can be diffifult to prove.
do you have any statistics on false rape accusations? i'm really curious about that now.
update: 2% of rape accusations are false, per the FBI. as for the victims of rape: 1 in 3 women between the ages of 15-35.

[LostinVA]

193. And, rape is a very unreported crime

[Imagevision]

176. Well, it works for Rove...