To those who say illegal immigrants are taking union jobs

[HEyHEY]

Why don't you get off your asses and actually get them to join your unions?
You call yourselves liberals?
Seems the liberal thing to do would be to help stop corporate exploitation of these people. Currently all you are doing is fighting your own - the working class. That kind of division is exactly what republicans want. They've already tricked farmers into voting republican through kissing ass and pretending they share the same "values." And now they need the blue collar people to be destroyed. And the plan is to have them fight each other. In the process 12 million immigrants become up for grabs politically because they begin to believe "democrats" hate them.
So, the repubs come in and scoop up those votes.
So instead of acting like greedy repbulicans looking out for number one, why don't we all sit back and remember what "union" means and what it stands for?
Then get out there and do the work.
If a law says they can't join, that law is unjust. Since when do laws dictate what justices will be fought for?

Or you can keep falling for the trap.

[BrklynLiberal]

1. Wow! What a concept!

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Joanne98]

2. BECAUSE there are not any left. Reason enough?

[HEyHEY]

3. Know why?

Because of lazy people that sit back and complain about shit instead of getting out there and doing something about it.
And there are plenty of unions left.

[Joanne98]

7. Easy to say from Canada! You don't have millions of poor

people crossing your border.

[EFerrari]

12. Damn those poor people and their illegal hunger!

:sarcasm:

[Lars39]

17. I feel like I've fallen into the alternate universe again!

[EFerrari]

26. I gotcha.

:)

[Cleita]

43. I hear you.

My ignore list is getting as long as Bush's wiretap list.

[LostinVA]

74. MIne too -- between immigration and rape threads!

[Cleita]

189. You are stronger than me. I haven't gone

anywhere near the rape threads because I know I would have a stroke for sure.

[LostinVA]

195. Do not even ask me why I'm doing it... I feel mesmerized or something

[rman]

108. they're out in force aren't they

Fresh graduates perhaps?

[Joanne98]

99. Maybe you should have your taxes raised.

[HEyHEY]

122. Myabe you should go back to Europe

[HEyHEY]

30. Canada is an immigrant nation

We have TONS of immigrants and a fairly open immigration policy. Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Calgary are full of immigrants from third world nations.... but instead of kicking them when they're down, we try to help them out... we think it's better for the whole country.

[Cleita]

35. Yes, you do and our 'Murikans need to learn from you.

eom

[Breeze54]

73. Open?? Yeah if you're "skilled" or "professional"! ...

B: PERMANENT IMMIGRATION TO CANADA:

Under this class one can make an application for PERMANENT IMMIGRATION TO CANADA under the following three categories when he/she is OUTSIDE of Canada.

1.

Applying for immigrant visa of Canada under the independent class.

Canada is a country of immigrants and the government has identified that liberalized immigration process for skilled workers and professionals is essential for the economic and cultural development of Canada.

To serve this objective and facilitate the entry of skilled workers and professionals into Canada, Human Resources Development Canada ( Labor Department of Canada ) has produced a list of occupations known as National Occupation Classification (NOC).

Based on this list, Immigration Department of Canada has formulated immigration regulations for issuing immigrant visa to skilled workers and professionals and their families.

Before one makes an application under this class the applicant must
make sure that your occupation / profession is on this NOC list with skill St of O, A and B.

Application under this class is decided on the basis of points system on the following criteria.

1.

Education = 25 points
2.

Work Experience = 21 points
3.

Age = 10 points
4.

Arrange Employment = 10 points
5.

Knowledge of English and/or French language= 16+8 points
6.

Close relative in Canada, job offer from Canada, Canadian Education for 2 years at graduate/master level, One year full time Canadian legal experience OR spouse's education = 10 points (5 points for each factor)


If you score 67 points out of 100 then you are eligible for getting PR visa of Canada.
For calculation of your points you need to submit your resume.
This regulation came in to effect on 28th Sep. 2003.

http://www.canadaimmigrationvisa.com/morevisa.html#hum
~~~~~~~~~

Operative words being SKILLED and PROFESSIONAL!
That isn't what's going on in the USA!

[HEyHEY]

87. There is more than one way to get to Canada

[Name removed]

101. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JuniperLea]

82. Well, duh!

You have socialized medicine and a whole lot of other things that aren't even comparable to the US.



Quit comparing apples and oranges!

[Cleita]

32. Canada hosts immigrants from all over

the British commonwealth who are just as poor when they get there as the Mexicans are when they come here. Because of the cold climate, many of them skip down to the USA and are as illegal as the ones from our southern border.

[mzmolly]

109. Canada has toughened immigration laws. The US also hosts immigrants

from all over, but the issue is legal vs. illegal. Illegal workers are prime for exploitation.

[lastliberalintexas]

132. Well somebody finally freaking gets it

"Illegal workers are prime for exploitation."

Give that lady a prize.

[mzmolly]

184. Thanks.

Taking that a step further, competing with exploited workers often means one must also be willing to be exploited - thus the "American's won't do X" farce.

[liberal N proud]

18. I remember when the factory I worked closed - 1982

Who was prez then? Ronnie Reagan.
Why did the plant close? To bust the union and hire people at 1/3 the pay with no benefits.
When the illegals were hired, the former employees were not even offered jobs.

Don't call us lazy, those were good hard work jobs.

[HEyHEY]

33. Why did you just take it?

[liberal N proud]

38. And what would you have done?

[HEyHEY]

42. I don't know what the exact situation was

So, I can't say.
Don't ask what I would have done. Ask what old school union shops would have done.

[liberal N proud]

46. Old school doesn't work because the Reagan regime change laws

that would have protected unions.

It is not all as easy as in your dreams, or this would not have happened to America.
Unless you have an idea that will correct the problem, don't sit there and call us all lazy.
The job I had worked 10 hours a day 6 days a week with offers to work the 7th day right up to the day it closed.

LAZY MY ASS!

[HEyHEY]

54. Work to change the laws

[readmoreoften]

94. As a union member on strike, I resent your facile argument.

If you've never been on strike, then STFU. I've been on strike for FIVE MONTHS NOW. Organizing is hard work when the law is on your side, it is unfathomable when the law isn't on your side. It's not just as simple as "work to change the law." You act like it entails sending a few emails or a petition.

And by the way, I'm on strike fighting for THE RIGHT TO UNIONIZE against the absurd and arguably illegal judgements handed down by Bush's cronies at the National Labor Relations Board.

I've lost my job; I have to travel three hours to lobby politicans; I'm forced to deal with the never-ending venom of vicious scabs who only care about themselves.

If the people in your bargaining unit aren't willing to fight beside you, then you're basically fucked. If they fight beside you at the beginning, and then abandon you after threats are levied, then you are worse than fucked-- you are left alone for the dogs to tear apart. So don't attack strikers who lost jobs under Reagan era policies because they "didn't do enough." Give me a fucking break.

[HEyHEY]

97. See, you're working hard for your rights

Most of the people here are just saying "oh, it's hopeless"

[Joanne98]

103. What would you know about working hard.

[HEyHEY]

106. Uh, yeah...I'm gonna go ahead and ignore that

Because, you know, you have no idea about anything to do with my personal life.

[Joanne98]

114. But I'm a good guesser.

[HEyHEY]

125. I'd say you're a very bad guesser

[GirlinContempt]

115. You really have some nerve

For someone who acts like such an ignorant bigot you sure do like to think you know a lot.

[Joanne98]

120. First I'm unhuman, now I'm an ignorant bigot...

Do you have anything intelligent to say?

[GirlinContempt]

123. I didn't call you 'unhuman'

But you're clearly ignorant. Do you have anything of value to say? Not just right now, ever.

[JuniperLea]

21. No, there are precious few unions left!

Thanks to union busting politicians! And those that remain are but hollow shells of their former selves.


I don't know who pissed in your Wheaties or where you get off calling a bunch of DUers lazy asses. This is the biggest bunch of getter-out-theres I've ever known.

So, what's your point?

[HEyHEY]

34. There are enough unions out there to do this job

But the "can't do" attitude of many show you're already whipped. Enjoy Jeb in 08

[2Design]

59. you are right there are lots of unions left

there is hotel workers
construction
printers
teachers
graphic designers
and lots more

you just have to find them and join them

and then fight for rights
as they did when they started them

[Name removed]

78. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[novalib]

31. With All Due Respect,

Not exactly.

I live in Virginia.

There are many good construction jobs here -- especially in Northern Virginia.

But few union jobs.

Know why?

It has nothing to do with people being lazy and sitting back and complaining.

It has to do with the fact that Virgina happens to be a state that allows "open shops" -- meaning that unions can bargain for an entire bargaining unit, but they cannot require people in that unit to join the union as a condition for keeping their job.

[HEyHEY]

37. So, why not fight that policy?

[readmoreoften]

100. What do you think "fighting" entails?

Do you even know what an open shop is or how it operates? Do you how NUANCED of an issue this is for the average voter? You might as well be saying "all you democrats should fight Bush." It's about as assinine.

[LanternWaste]

149. spot-on analogy

"all you democrats should fight bush". Yup, it's a spot-on analogy.

It's odd to have the choir preaching to me with vague generalities and a tone so condescending, so self-righteous and so frikkin' audacious as to be... I dunno.

"here's the objective, lads! Take it, but I won't tell you how-- I'll merely look at you disdainfully when you ask how and I have to say, 'i don't know the specifics of your situation, you figure it out!' "

Sheesh.

[lastliberalintexas]

162. This thread has proved he doesn't

Has no concept whatsoever about American labor and employmnet laws or even what it would take to change them.

[HEyHEY]

175. lazy, lazy, lazy

[HEyHEY]

170. Almost as assinine as saying "Kick all illegals out"

[2Design]

62. right to work states are the poorest states in the nation

It has not worked for them and people need to start recognizing that

Join the union - start building them up until they work for you again

No you can not require people under the current laws

It is time to repeal the right to work states law - because it hurts the people

I believe every right to work state is a red state too

[Lars39]

4. Then people need to form them.

[HEyHEY]

5. Lars! That takes work!

Come on, you've seen old clips from union punch-ups in the 30s... people may have to get their hands dirty!
Isn't there someone that can do it for us?

[Lars39]

9. Sad, isn't it?

Here's one:
http://www.workingamerica.org/home.cfm

[Joanne98]

11. Do you belong to a union?

[Lars39]

13. What the hell are you doing on a progressive board if you are anti-union?

:wtf:

[HEyHEY]

20. Yes

[Joanne98]

15. Now I'm being called lazy by a Canadian.

[HEyHEY]

22. Hey, your nation is fatter than mine

[EFerrari]

39. LOL! n/t

[GirlinContempt]

24. What the fuck is that supposed to mean?

[Vincardog]

36. an do it for us. You have to be the leader you have been waiting for.

The repugs have been busting the unions for the last 20 years. I was a white collar Computer Programmer and tried to unionize the other programmers. They believed they were too white collar for a union. All our jobs are now done for pennies in India or by prison labor in China. Now you want me to unionize the illegal immigrant farm workers and go to IBP factories? PLEASE

[HEyHEY]

45. You're an illegal immigrant, just ask a native American

[JuniperLea]

137. I was born here

As were 12 generations of my family.

You don't even know what constitutes a native American. Are you referring to a Native American Indian? I am a native American and a native Californian.

[2Design]

68. time to unionize the world - not just usa -

these corporations were brought in line at the turn of the century by unions - it is time they are brough in line again by world wide unions - fighting each other is not going to do it

at the turn of the century everyone was against the irish, then the 'dago', then the polish, 'spic', and on it goes - the new comers are not the problem - it is the poor pay - unions helped create a middle class - it is time we get a middle class back - corporations brainwashed 'white collar' workers into believeing they didn't need to unionize - and look what happened -

the world needs to fight together and stop fighting each other

[readmoreoften]

105. I agree. n/t

[Joanne98]

8. Who's going to join?

[HEyHEY]

25. That is up to you

You have to do things like they used to, infiltrate, be relentless, sign up as many illegal immigrants as you can.

[Joanne98]

140. Laws of supply and demand make that kinda hard don't they?

[liberal N proud]

10. Thank you!

After Reagan busted the unions. To bring in illegals, there are not many left, least not in the industries that the illegals have replaced the union guy.

[High Plains]

61. Not true

Hispanic labor is providing unions like the SEIU and UFCW with militant masses.

[Critters2]

6. It's a quaint notion, if a bit naive

Employers like to hire illegal immigrants for a host of reasons, not the least of which is that it is easy to threaten them with firing, and then to fire them. Those who get involved with union organizing are quickly let go, and have no recourse, precisly because they aren't here legally. Union organizing has been tried in a few packing plants, but the illegal immigrants who are involved are quickly and summarily fired.

This should be obvious.

Oh, and you're the one doing the dividing, by scolding other DU'ers.

[EFerrari]

14. Not. Where labor and undocumented make common cause

management is fucked.

Geezus. How HARD is that to understand?

[HEyHEY]

19. it would seem extremely

So many haven't had to REALLY fight for their workers rights... so they lost sight of who the enemy is.

[EFerrari]

23. It's not rocket science. You'd think that anyone who had the

brains to type would be able to get it.

[Critters2]

47. I've seen it happen

Maybe the problem is that you spend too much time typing, and not enough actually out there seeing the hard realities. Employers fire organizers. Period.

[EFerrari]

49. Yes, they fire organizers. That's part of the job, to get fired

and to fight that.

Mind your own myopia, my friend, before you diagnose mine.

[HEyHEY]

16. Buddy, you are typical - completely typical

"Oooh whine whine....the big bad corporation is firing union organizers....ooo there's nothing we can do ...... oooo Mexicans are making it harder..."

Lazy, it's unreal... in the 30s you think they rolled over and died like that? Fuck no, they rolled up their sleeves and did what had to be done. It didn't matter what that was, they were focused and did it. Some lost their lives for it.

[Bobbie47]

28. I agree and you

don't have to be illegal they will fire native Americans just as fast.
You try to get people to sign cards in the dead of night so nobody sees you and narks you out. Not quite as easy as some may think it is.

[theHandpuppet]

71. Yep -- employers threaten to turn them in

A worker who is here illegally faces a lot of problems and intimidation from employers at the very notion of joining a union. That's why greedy employers are eager to bust unions and hire workers who they can bully and intimidate and pay slave wages. Coal companies are actively doing that right now in Appalachia.

[Ksec]

27. Meanwhile you and the corporate world

(and the chimp) all agree that opening our borders to millions of illegal aliens is all good. Good for who?

The corporations . Congrats.

[GirlinContempt]

29. Holy. Shit.

[HEyHEY]

40. Only cause people like you let it be good for them

By the way, as I've said many times.... white people were the first illegals.

[Ksec]

44. Oh ...so now you get racist

Ripping on peoples skin color.

Way to change the subject.

Tell me why you cant debate without bringing racist comments in? Its all you got?

[HEyHEY]

50. ?

Yeah...whatever

[Ksec]

56. good response.

And like all of you folks who think allowing 12 to 20 million people invade this country illegally, you cant answer serious questions like how is this good for America.. You do just like they always do. Change the subject and do the insults.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GirlinContempt]

53. Has the whole world gone insane?

You're the one changing the subject and dodging.

[HEyHEY]

57. I didn't want to waste time on him

He obviously didn't read my post. Because it explains why his thinkning is short-sighted, he didn't even argue my opinion, he just spouted the same crap they all do.

[GirlinContempt]

64. I know

It's fucking sick

[JuniperLea]

160. This is the USA

Love it or leave it... oh, wait.


;)

[HEyHEY]

176. Ah yes the mantra of republicans

[JuniperLea]

202. Yes. Yes it is.

Your failure to "get it" is astounding.

[Ksec]

65. The OP wants me to

enlist millions of illegal immigrants into Union roles while there are millions of American Union workers already out of jobs.
And you want me to answer that preposterous straw man? Pulease. Its a stupid question .

[GirlinContempt]

67. Whatever.

:eyes:

[Ksec]

69. Hey thats my tenth whatever today from your side

Truth is , I understand your ducking.

[HEyHEY]

72. Dude, people are saying "whatver" to you because

You don't even offer anything to argue with. You come in, make a short, bullheaded kneejerk reaction and expect people to right a thesis as a rebuttal.
Get over it and put up some substance.

[Wonk]

91. Did your thesis fall over? You better right it, then.

"...expect people to right a thesis..." :applause:

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HEyHEY]

119. Wow, wonk, you point out a typo then alert when I call you what you are

What a brave man!

[GirlinContempt]

80. Oh, so you DO read your own 'arguments'

and go "What the hell?"

Good.

[dogman]

41. Sorry misread your post.

Illegals can't be brought in to a Union. That's the hang-up with the word illegal.

[HEyHEY]

51. There has to be a way around that

[MercutioATC]

48. Let's see....because they're ILLEGAL immigrants, maybe?

What's "liberal" about helping people to break the law?

[HEyHEY]

52. It's all about changing the law

It's about telling an unjust law to fuck off.

[MercutioATC]

55. So you support completely open borders?

We HAVE an immigration policy. Tens of millions have used it to gain LEGAL status in this country. We're not talking about closing the borders, but insisting that people follow the legal procedure necessary to legally reside in the U.S.

What's so "unjust" about that?

[HEyHEY]

60. Hey, I agree that legal procedure should be followed

But, not everyone is in a situation where they are willing to wait for that. ANd I can't blame them.
But, once they are here, if they've been here awhile and haven't broken laws or anything then why shouldn't they be able to join a union?

[MercutioATC]

76. So you DO support completely open borders.

If you're saying that not everybody is willing to follow the procedure and you don't blame them for that, then you don't really believe in the importance of immigration procedures. (correct me if I've somehow misread that)

"...if they've been here awhile and haven't broken laws or anything..."

The broke the law when they illegally entered the country! Why should they be able to ignore a process that millions have respected? What does that say to future illegal immigrants, "Break the law but keep your head down for a few years and it won't matter"?

I really can't understand the support for this...

[HEyHEY]

84. For the first one

I'm saying I have compassion for the situation they are in. Think about it, it's not easy.
Basically I'm saying this is a complicated issue, but one certain thing is that as long as these people are here, we need to embrace them.

[MercutioATC]

88. I guess we're just gonna disagree on this...

We don't have the resources to care for everybody less fortunate than us. It'd be nice if we did, but we don't. We DO allow immigration, we just require people to follow a process. I may have sympathy for people in difficult situations, but I don't support allowing them to break immigration law to remedy them.

It IS a complicated issue, but I can't support "embracing" somebody who didn't care enough about this country to obey its laws (as tens of millions of other immigrants have).

[High Plains]

66. We have an immigration policy that's BROKEN

If you're so hot on the law, how about laws that reflect reality?

The reality is that undocumented workers are part of our economy and have been for decades. We need to recognize that and craft laws that reflect that. Probably a combination of amnesty, a guest worker program of some sorts, and stricter enforcement of laws against hiring undocumented workers.

In the long run (and it will be the long run), the only solution to decreasing the number of undocumented immigrants from Mexico and points south is to create a more just global economy. No easy answers.

[MercutioATC]

81. Maybe, but encouraging people to break laws isn't the answer.

...and it's not helping the illegals, either. It's their illegal status that allows them to be exploited by employers. Unless you're willing to just let EVERYBODY in, there has to be a set of guidelines. You won't encourage people to abide by those guidelines if you reward people who break them.

[EFerrari]

58. We don't actually have laws down here any more.

We have Torquemada Gonzalez finding ways to evade the Constitution.

It's pretty pathetic. And somewhat alarming.

[CanuckAmok]

70. you fucking Canadians think you have all the answers.

Well guess what? You don't!

[HEyHEY]

75. Stay on the island and away from my job market

Or I'll kick your neon swim-shorts wearing ass!

[lastliberalintexas]

112. Actually, Canadians (and Europeans) DO have many of the answers

Real workplace protections for employees and valuing people as more than simply assets of a corporation to be used up and tossed away. In many, many ways I wish that we had been able to fulfill the promise of the New Deal and Great Society programs, but instead you Canucks and Yooropeens learned more from your own Industrial Revolutions than we did and made them your own. Bravo for you guys, and too bad we couldn't do the same.

But even that really has nothing to do with the illegal immigration issue.

[Inland]

130. High unemployment does deter immigration. nt

[HEyHEY]

180. Canada's unemployment is super low

Much lower than the USA's

[Inland]

188. Then is your country really shitty for engaging in mass deportations?

I mean, if employment is so good, then why deport thousand and thousands? Is Canada full of people trying to make a less ethnic union, or whatever it is you guys have. Commonwealth. Dominion.

Gee, I wonder if the deportations actually contributes to the low unemployment rate? Hmmmmmmm........

[HEyHEY]

196. We gave a shitload of amnesty to thousands last year

That were here illegally, so, no that argument doesn't work. We have low unemployment because of a good economy spawned from logical thought and immigration policies bringing talented people here.

[Inland]

203. Oh, boo hoo. "They were illegal, illegal" You are hoarding JOBS.

You've got tons of jobs, and you're deporting them. Are you shitheads, or prudent, and either way, why is it good enough for Canada and not good enough for us?

Because you're in the business of butting into other countries and telling them how to live and a hypocrite. Pretty simple, really.

[lastliberalintexas]

77. Well whatdayaknow, a Canadian who knows very little

about US labor and employment laws. American workers do not have the protections that Canadian and European workers have, regardless of whether we are citizens, legal or illegal immigrants. A US employer can fire someone for the color shirt they are wearing, and yet you think the answer to our labor woes is to organize illegal immigrants?

The entire point of the employer hiring an illegal immigrant in the first place is that they are ILLEGAL, and therefore have even less power in our system than other workers. They can not complain to the Wage and Hour Board, or to the Labor Department, or to OSHA, or even file a Workers' Compensation claim without the very real threat of deportation. Many, many illegal immigrants work in slave shops, with 10-16 hour days on subsistence wages in inadequate to unsafe conditions. And if they complain about these conditions, they are turned into INS and the next illegal immigrant takes their former job.

You've apparently bought into some idealized world in which these people are working in normal jobs and are just waiting for union organizers to come around and sign them up so that a certification election can be held. Incredibly naive.

[HEyHEY]

79. Obviously you don't understand the whole "Strength in numbers"

Idea.
You need to change these laws.
Incredibly apathetic

[JuniperLea]

86. And yet another brilliant suggestion from one who is clueless

What the hell do you think we are all trying to do?


Good God. Get a clue, huh? There is a whole domino effect here and you can't go direct to Z without taking care of A through X first!

[HEyHEY]

90. You're trying to band together to kick out mexicans

That's not the kind of strength in numbers I'm talking about

[lastliberalintexas]

95. Bigoted assumption there

Not all illegal immigrants in the US are of Mexican extraction- indeed we have quite a few illegals from Europe who came here on student visas and then just styed after their graduation.

And I don't think that anyone other than the true racists really think that the people who are already here should be deported. But people would like to try to stop the downward spiral that is the US average wage, and one of the ways in which that wage is severely impacted is by the employment of illegal labor. Arguing that immigration laws should be enforced and that employers should be held accountable is not the same as shouting racial epithets at any brown skinned person you see.

[HEyHEY]

104. I was trying to break it down to a level most racists could understand

[lastliberalintexas]

121. And I would doubt very seriously that many on DU

fall into that category. Most are arguing the issue that you seem to keep ignoring/dodging, and that is the illegal nature of the workers and their consequential inability to join unions or even make complaints to governmental agencies.


I doubt very seriously that it is really any different in Canada. If I was in Canada illegally, would I be able to make a report on an employer without being deported? Possibly, but for some reason I highly doubt it.

[Joanne98]

135. False choices. I think they should be deported, but I always

thought they should be deported. I thought that when there was only 3 million of them. SOME PEOPLE don't like CROWDS!

[GirlinContempt]

142. HEY EVERYONE READ THE POST ABOVE THIS ONE

[Joanne98]

172. Oh Gawd I'm busted. I'm sorry......

I like to have the poplulation of my state (CA) go from 16 million to 33 million in one decade. I LOVE TRAFFIC. I love crime and gangs and people from other countries who ONLY COME HERE TO MAKE MONEY! Were do you live?

[Name removed]

187. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JuniperLea]

113. Get a clue... how ignorant is that statement?

We aren't ALL doing that shit and it shows just how clueless you are to suggest we are!

[HEyHEY]

118. I thought I was on your ignore list - so ignore me already

[lastliberalintexas]

89. Apathetic my ass

This has nothing to do with apathy, nor even what laws are on the books. In some ways, Americans have the labor and employment laws we deserve for continuing to elect such anti-worker politicians. But that is for another thread.

You are either too dense to see the real issue or are intentionally ignoring it. Because these are ILLEGAL immigrants, it matters not what kind of laws are on the books. The employers could give a shit about the laws on the books as it applies to these people BECAUSE THEY ARE HERE ILLEGALLY. If they rock the boat, the employer just turns their ass into INS and they get shipped back to their country of origin. Comprendez vous?

We could have the best labor and employment laws in the world and it wouldn't change the conditions in which these illegal immigrants are working or the attitude of the employers who hire them. Until the EMPLOYERS are penalized in some fashion for hiring illegal immigrants (whether they are from Mexico, Sweden or Japan), this situation will only continue.

[Neil Lisst]

83. Unions are part of the Democratic coalition.

Apparently the OP for this thread is Canadian, so his interest is similar to that of Guam, whose destiny primarily relies on what the US does, but he cannot vote in our elections. I am therefore mindful of his disenfranchised plea. We need to do more. Let's make Canada and Mexico the 51st and 52nd states!!

Then it won't be illegal immigration from Mexico to the US or Canada. With the US running Mexico, it might be able to produce more than a few hundred dollars per capita, so residents can afford to stay there and work.

Slackers can gravitate north, say Vancouver, and settle there.

We can have the USA from the Yucatan to the North Pole! And this way, those who live in Mexico and Canada get to vote in elections that matter - the ones that decide what the US will do.

But let's keep the unions as part of our coalition.

[HEyHEY]

85. Pardon me, but is an AMERICAN telling me to mind my own business?

My favourite argument from you guys when someone knocks your nation is "Mind your own business" cause, you know, the Americans would never interfere in another nations domestic affairs.

[Neil Lisst]

92. Not at all. I want to give you the voice that citizens have.

Like Mexicans, you don't have much say-so on what happens in your world, so being a US state would fix that.

[cap]

93. cesar chavez organized the illegals...

he made them join the unions.... if they didn't HE called Immigration on them. Things got organized. and he is a hero for doing so.

[JuniperLea]

98. You are right.... Americans would not

We didn't vote this rat bastard and his league of henchmen into office... so please, STFU. Your ignorance is showing.

[HEyHEY]

102. YOUR ignorance is showing

You actaully believe Bush is the first US president to fuck around in other nations?

[JuniperLea]

110. Of course not

But you don't know whom I have voted for in the past... your ignorance casts a shadow through which even you cannot see.

[HEyHEY]

116. Wow, that's deep

[mzmolly]

107. As a Canadian why don't you find a way to recruit illegals and bring them

north?

Many unions are doing what you suggest:

Legal and illegal immigrants are a double-edged sword for American unions. Most unions are opposed to large-scale illegal immigration because a larger work force reduces union bargaining strength. However illegal immigrant workers tend to concentrate in goods-producing industries that have traditionally been union strongholds but have shed workers in the 1970s and 1980s. Some unions recruit illegal workers to maintain their bargaining power, since nonunion firms using illegal workers could soon undercut established unionized firms. Union leaders at times are trapped between employers seeking wage concessions to stay in business and immigrant workers whose presence generated or preserved the business, forcing difficult decisions on where to draw the line on concessions to save jobs. Unions representing work forces that are 50 percent illegal are reluctant to call strikes because illegal alien strikebreakers from other village networks are readily available and because employers often ask the INS to check the legal status of strikers.

http://www.prospect.org/web/view-print.ww?id=6825

"If the employer is hiring illegal immigrants, the only thing the unions can do is ignore them or organize them," Briggs said.

Unions aren't required to ask for proof of immigration status, an obligation that rests with employers.

The carpenters union is making its push at a time when construction is booming throughout the nation but industry wages are stagnating.

For generations of American workers, construction was a path to the middle class. As companies increase their reliance on immigrant labor, it is becoming a low-paying industry, said John Keeley, a spokesman for the Center for Immigration Studies, a nonpartisan think tank that favors stricter immigration rules.

http://www.azstarnet.com/business/111380%20class=

Keeping wages and benefits in tact is not as simple as recruiting illegal aliens. I wish there were a simple solution, there isn't.

[GirlinContempt]

111. Here's the thing.

Capitalism destroys developing nations. In Latin america, millions of people are willing to die to try and escape the hellish conditions. And the Americans who're struggling to find labour are fighting for jobs in the same corporations that cause the misery that produces mass immigration.

It goes way further than just trying to stop immigration. It's EASY to blame immigrants, it's EASY to say "we can't do anything about corporations" and then find something you think you CAN do something about, and it'll be easy to watch it fail. Nationalism is an ugly thing, so is racism, and so is fear. That's all I'm seeing.

[Breeze54]

117. 11,000 undocumented ILLEGAL immigrants set TO BE DEPORTED from Canada!!

http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20060411/news/news2.html
IMMIGRATION MATTERS - Many Jamaicans face deportation from Canada
published: Tuesday | April 11, 2006
Marva Barrow, Contributor

Snip-->
DEPORTATION
"When me check it out lawd ... no whey nuh betta dan yard!" is a cliché that holds true
to over 11 million illegal immigrants in the United States
and the 11,000 undocumented illegal immigrants set to be deported this year from Canada
under the new Canadian government, many of whom are Jamaicans.

Contrary to the new government's belief, deportation is not the solution to the wave of
black-on-black violence that has stigmatised Jamaican immigrants or children of Jamaican immigrants.

Talk is cheap, eh; HEyHEY??
:shrug:

[HEyHEY]

124. Did I say I was for it?

[readmoreoften]

129. But why aren't you doing anything about it?

Are you lazy? As lazy as you claim Americans on DU to be?

[HEyHEY]

138. I am, in fact

When I can bring certain things attention they deserve through my job, I do that.

[lastliberalintexas]

145. LOL, don't exert too much effort there

Wouldn't want you to strain a muscle or anything.

Yes, it's just much easier to come to the DU board and bash American workers instead.

[HEyHEY]

150. First off

It can be extremely tiring and time consuming, thank you. Secondly, in my field of work I can't champion causes, I can only bring them to light.

[Breeze54]

192. Are you going to the UNION RALLY to STOP the DEPORTATION from Canada???

RALLY ANNOUNCED TO SUPPORT UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS - April 21st
APRIL 11, 2006 - 15:38 ET
Universal Workers Union, Contractor Associations and Community Leaders

Attention: Business/Financial Editor, City Editor, Media Editor, News Editor,
Government/Political Affairs Editor

TORONTO, ONTARIO--(CCNMatthews - April 11, 2006) -
The Universal Workers Union, Local 183, its management partners and community leaders
today announced plans to hold a rally on Friday, April 21st. Tony Dionisio, Business
Manager for Local 183 advised that
"a friendly rally will be held at Queen's Park to convince both MPs and MPPs to stop
the deportation of undocumented workers and to fix the broken immigration system."


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What?? Canada has a "broken immigration system"?? :sarcasm:
:wtf: I thought everything in Canada was perfect!!
No?????
Aren't you going, HEyHEY?
Aren't you going to "get out there and fight"??
Here's your chance!!!
:thumbsup:

[HEyHEY]

194. I don't live in Toronto

And I'm a journalist, hence I cannot join such a cause... but I will do my best to bring it to light

[Joanne98]

126. Don't tell that to HeyHey. LOL

[HEyHEY]

131. The only person I'm in favour of keeping out of my country is you

[Joanne98]

143. Oh good. Now I'm coming for sure. lol

[GirlinContempt]

128. YEAH HEYHEY STOP DEPORTING IMMIGRANTS

:eyes: He isn't for that, he doesn't support that, he doesn't vote for that.

[HEyHEY]

155. By the way, last year Canada granted exemptions to

A shitload of illegal immigrants and allowed them to stay.

[Inland]

127. Because it's being OUTSIDE the union that GETS them the jobs!

The willingness of dirt poor people from another country to dump all that solidarity shit and work for WHATEVER is the sine qua non of getting the job. If they joined the union shop, they would be waiting their turn instead of jumping the line, just as they jumped the line to get into the country.

If they weren't willing to work for shit wages, the employers would send them back for another group that is, and that DU would insist must be let into the country and it's all our fault if they don't unionize.

Amazing. Yeah, they are going to unionize for the good of all American workers, having failed to unionize in their home country.

Are you people goofy?

[HEyHEY]

133. EAXACTLY...so get them in the union and there will be no choice

[Inland]

139. Well, here's the "no choice", then.

Join the union or go the fuck home. How's that for leaving them no choice? And since we know who isn't in the union already, we send them the fuck home. Done and done.

Any other ways to force them into unions? Appeal to their sense of solidarity with foreigners, maybe?

[lastliberalintexas]

141. Are you just trying to stir shit up?

This thread just your idea of fun? :shrug:

[HEyHEY]

144. I'm trying to make a point

Instead of fighting a polarizing battle, join forces, change laws and find a way to beat the SOBs trying to cut wages.

[JuniperLea]

146. You should pay attention

Because the only point we see is the one on top of your head.

[HEyHEY]

148. Juni - is your bottle of aftershave finished yet?

Maybe you should switch to water

[lastliberalintexas]

153. AND YOU KEEP IGNORING THE FUCKING ISSUE

You can talk about LAWS until you're fucking blue in the face, but it matters not one whit to a discussion of ILLEGAL immigration and its effect on wages. Again, employers do not care what the laws say BECAUSE THESE PEOPLE ARE HERE ILLEGALLY. What part of threatened with deportation do you not understand?

Or do you seriously think that open immigration is the answer? You think that an unlimited supply of labor, unionized or not, would be able to sustain livable wages? Uh huh.


Please, let me know when open immigration is the policy in the Great White North, since my husband and I love BC and would love to live in the Vancouver area. We've actually looked into moving to Canada, but don't seem to qualify for entry.

[Name removed]

158. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lastliberalintexas]

161. Yeah, very deep response

I guess you've gotten the flame war that you apparently wanted. Have fun bashing the American worker.

[Name removed]

193. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lastliberalintexas]

198. Eh?

Methinks you've mixed your insul- er metaphors there my friend. I'm neither a guy, nor a union member, nor out of work five months. Though I do work which supports labor and helps enforce what few rights they do have in this country.


And still no response to the tricky little issue of enforcing labor and employment laws with regard to illegal workers. Why am I not surprised?

[Joanne98]

163. Maybe Canada can take half our illegals. It's only 10 million.

That shouldn't be a problem. We are part of the NAFTA family. WE LOVE EACH OTHER! SHMOOOOOOOCHHHHHHHH!

[HEyHEY]

181. Gladly - we're recruiting them now

We need a larger population

[GirlinContempt]

134. Yeah. Fuck them for jumping the line

to escape hellish, disease infested slums and try to feed their fucking children the only way they know how. Fuck them. Amazing they haven't pulled their 3rd world nations out of the sinkholes we've shoved them into a fixed all those problems while we continue to bully them.

[Inland]

147. No, no, REWARD them for jumping the line.

Leave all their relatives and countrymen in the exact same shithole, and give all your tea and sympathy to the illegals, with the job of some other American, just because it let's you pretend that you've made some contribution to solving the problems of the world for the personal cost to you of zippo.

Good work.

[GirlinContempt]

151. Nice work

You've just created a false dichotomy. :thumbsup:

[Inland]

164. Sure, it's a win win win win WIN situation.

Just keep telling yourself that.

[GirlinContempt]

169. I didn't say that

God, this is fucking useless.

[HEyHEY]

154. Your family was rewarded, why shouldn't theirs be?

[Inland]

159. My family jumped the line? Oh, well, fuck them then.

Got nothing to do with me. I'm a citizen of America and me and my fellow citizens are working for a more perfect Union.

[HEyHEY]

166. More perfect or "Less ethnic"

[Inland]

171. What "more perfect" means is up to Americans to decide.

The people who have committed to each other and the country are going to work on what it means and how to get there.

Now run along.

[Name removed]

190. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Inland]

199. Me get a life? You're the one pretending to advise Americans.

You seem to want my life so much, you even tell me how to run my own business inside my own borders, and then complain about how americans are so pushy everywhere else. What a hypocrite. Isn't it enought that your advice SUCKS, that you have to pretend it's YOUR business and not mine? You don't give a shit about us beyond being insulting, and the feeling's mutual. Haven't you got your own countrymen if you want someone to ignore you?

Thanks, I did go to a US public school. Bet you have a rectum full of advice on that score too.

[Name removed]

204. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Inland]

209. Even Canadians don't take your sucky advice.

Why would someone from a country you don't care about take it?

But no, you tell me to butt out of my country's affairs and let you make all the decisions, because YOU'RE from a GOOD country and MY country is BAD. Dude, we don't run it for your approval, because you don't give a rat's ass about it, and because your advice sucks so bad that I have to think you propose it simply for the purpose of being dense..

[Joanne98]

167. Good one.

[lastliberalintexas]

157. So the answer to the conditions in the 3rd world

is to turn the US (or even other parts of the "developed" world) into shitholes too?

You seem to be mixing issues there. Should US policy toward the underdeveloped world (esp Central and South America) be changed? Certainly. But can we please not screw the American worker in that process?

[GirlinContempt]

165. The American worker is screwed by the SCREWING OF UNDERDEVELOPED NATIONS

The US isn't anywhere NEAR the level of these places, and to even suggest it's headed that way tells me someone needs to get on a bus and go hang out somewhere other than the land of the free.

Exploiting these nations has screwed workers in the U.S., it's screwed the other countries and their people.

[lastliberalintexas]

173. I understand that, but that is a different issue

than whether illegal immigration into this country should be allowed to occur without penalty and whether US businesses should be able to hire those illegal workers without repurcussion. Again, you're trying to turn 2 different things into a single issue when they are clearly separate and distinct.

Corporations, whether American or otherwise, will always be adverse to labor and have done much damage in many parts of the world. The people in those countries should not have to deal with their situations, and the US government could go a long way towards curbing corporate excess overseas if it so desired. But that is different than whether labor in the developed world should have to compete with illegal workers who are willing to work for pennies on the dollar. The answer is to raise the standard of living for all- not bring ours down to that of the 3rd world.

[Joanne98]

152. THEY'RE SCABS! What happened to the good ole days...

when SCABS had their asses kicked NOT because they were a certain color but because they were PUNK traitors. Kissing "the man's ASS". NOTHING'S CHANGED. (Except maybe in Canada)

[Name removed]

156. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

174. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

182. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Inland]

200. Note my post 139 that was too tough.

I put some pretty tough measures in my post 139. Not surprisingly, it didn't earn a peep from your correspondent.

[mopinko]

136. prejudice has a lot to do with the state of unions in this county

imho. instead of jumping on the social justice and equality bandwagon back in the day, they closed and barricaded their doors to minorities and women. i can tell ya some stories about my days as an apprentice carpenter and the welcome that us sisters got from our brothers.
i still believe in unions, but they allowed hate to get in the way of their mission. hence the raygun democrats. reap what ya sow.

[Scout]

168. why don't you get off YOUR ass and go to Mexico and help

Mexicans organize and make THEIR native country a better place to live, instead of bitching at us?

We'll stay here and work on our native country, they can get off their asses at home in Mexico and work on their country instead of coming here illegally.

If they want to come here legally, great! I'm all for that.

[HEyHEY]

177. Cause their immigration laws are tough - I can't get in

[Scout]

191. then you should be working to change those laws n/t

[Critters2]

197. Xenophobic racists!!

[Joanne98]

178. I grew up on the border of Mexico! Imperial Beach. I want to help.

It's the corruption. If you can think of a way for me to help I will. The goverment elites in Mexico, they have got to go. We would all help. Show us how.

[goodhue]

179. amen

Some unions, of course, are doing just that. SEIU shirts were all over my local immigrant rights rally of 40,000 in St. Paul on Sunday.

[goodhue]

185. STATEMENT BY SEIU EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT ELISEO MEDINA

STATEMENT BY SEIU EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT ELISEO MEDINA, ON THE NATIONAL DAY OF ACTION FOR COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION REFORM

“Today is a historic day. In an unprecedented mobilization sweeping the nation, over a million people are coming together in more than one hundred cities to call for a realistic solution to our broken immigration system.

“This broad coaliton of labor, community, religious, student and other immigrant advocacy groups has united in a National Day of Action to urge Congress to pass comprehensive immigration reform that makes America more secure, protects all workers, and recognizes the important contribution of immigrants to our economy and American society as a whole.

“While we come from a variety of backgrounds with different histories, we are all united by a simple belief: everyone who works hard in America should have the opportunity for a good job with a paycheck that supports a family, affordable health care and a secure retirement.

“But our outdated immigration laws make it much harder for millions of people to achieve a better future for themselves and their families.

“That’s why America is counting on its leaders in Congress to continue working together in a bipartisan fashion to get comprehensive immigration reform passed this year that respects this core value of rewarding hard work.

“A comprehensive approach must include an earned path to citizenship for the hardworking, taxing paying immigrants already here. It must also establish a controlled, orderly process for coming to work in this country so we can channel immigrant workers through the American legal system. This will in turn enhance our security by allowing our border patrol to focus on those who come to this country to do us harm.

“Today’s extraordinary mobilization is just the beginning. We will continue to march and speak out until the President signs a comprehensive immigration bill into law that works for all working people in this country. And if Congress fails to act, we will deliver our message in the ballot boxes come November.”


###
With 1.8 million members, SEIU is the fastest-growing union in North America. Focused on uniting workers in three sectors to improve their lives and the services they provide, SEIU is the largest health care union, including hospitals, nursing homes, and home care; the largest property services union, including building cleaning and security; and the second largest public employee union.

http://www.seiu.org/media/pressreleases.cfm?pr_id=1300

[Joanne98]

183. Goodnight! I have to get up at 4:00 and work HARD!

Please have HeyHey record all the soap operas for me.

[HEyHEY]

186. Only an eight hour shift I bet

I worked 12 yesterday.... but you know..

[Critters2]

201. In a slaughterhouse, or picking fruit?

or sitting at a computer?

Doesn't Canada have any problems that need solving?

[Name removed]

205. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

208. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HEyHEY]

206. Typical! - When the USA stays outta other countries business

I'll stay outta theirs... but that will never happen

[DIKB]

207. Time to put on the asbestos underwear.

Just wanted to say I agreed with you. Too many people are bitter atm.

I'm a factory worker, and union member. I encourage everyone at my job site to join the union. Negotiating contracts and fighting for more rights/wages is easier if we have the numbers.

What frightens me is that people don't want to pay the union dues, and just take advantage of rights we've fought for at our factory. If/When there are enough of these people, the factory can do away with the union entirely. A frightening concept.

[pinto]

210. Locking.

This has become way too full of personal attacks and sniping to be anywhere close to a "discussion".