Why the Mexican Flag?

[question everything]

I am sure there were many threads about this. Even for those of us who sympathize with the plight of immigrants - legal and illegal - seeing the tens of thousands protesters waving the Mexican flag raise questions.

Why? What message are they sending? If they want to live in this country, why wave the Mexican (or any other flag for that matter)?

This is not Cinco de Mayo, or Columbus Day or St. Patrick Day parades where the Mexican, the Italian and the Irish flags are waved in honor of these countries. Why wave the flag of a foreign nation while protesting the immigration laws of this country?

Please don't flame, just explain.

Thanks.

[Redstone]

1. Because they're Mexican, maybe?

(And that particular one can wave any old flag she wants to and it'll be just fine with me.)

Redstone

[EFerrari]

4. . . .

:spank:

[Redstone]

6. Beat me up if you want to, but you MUST admit...

Redstone

[EFerrari]

25. If forced, I will. lol

:P

[corporate_mike]

175. these are worse than the flags

[question everything]

185. Thank you for posting.

How can anyone in his/her right mind expect any American to roll the welcome mat under these sentiments?

And why are there DUers who agree with these sentiments? And if they do, what do they suggest should be done? Give California, Texas, New Mexico and Arizona to Mexico?

I won't be surprised if some really bigoted member of Congress will declare the people waving these flags "the enemy" to be seized and deported.

[countryjake]

186. Some "really bigoted member of Congress" already has.

That's why "these sentiments" are out in the streets, mad as hell! If that HR 4437 makes it thru the Senate as easily as it was passed by the House, the Republicans will have one hell of a mess to answer for.

[Kerrytravelers]

196. Here are some signs I'd rather not see.

I will gladly kick this fool.


And at the same rally... these friendly fellows...



Personally, I like this sign but I'm not opposed to flying whatever flag someone wants to fly.

[DetroitProle]

201. one word...Kosovo.

"Historical justice" is often used to justify terrible atrocities.
The Serbs were historically tied to Kosovo...things changed, and Albanians ended up living there...each side felt they had a right to the land...and we know how that story goes.

[question everything]

231. Excellent observation

and Welcome to DU DetroitProle

:toast: :bounce:

[mondo joe]

16. I had the impression they were US citizens.

My bad.

[question everything]

18. Or, at least, wanted to be ones (nt)

[EFerrari]

26. There are many people marching. The vast majority citizens

because undocumented workers can't affort to be popped.

[proud2BlibKansan]

112. So they can never touch a Mexican flag?

Is that part of citizenship now - refusing to display the flag of another country?

I'm sorry, but this is such a non-issue to me.

[question everything]

119. Not while protesting immigration law

all in context. Yes, we all love our heritage and we celebrate national holidays of our former countries. We honor them. But when you protest immigration law.. meaning you want to stay in this country and you hope to influence the voters and their representatives - this is a bizarre way to show how much you want to live and work in this country... even if you have no plans to someday pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes.

[question everything]

17. If they are Mexicans, why do they want to stay in this country?

what is the message? They want to influence public opinion, they want to protest against the bills currently debated in Congress by... telling us: screw you?

Why should average Americans, seeing these flags, not react: fine, go back to Mexico if that's how you view yourself. And while there, perhaps - as many say - we can get back decent wages for those of us who fly American flags.

[SeaBob]

78. Mexican flags

They are waving Mexican flags because they are mexicans. If their own government did as much for them as america does I am sure they would stay in mexico. The mexican government has a history of corruption worse than our current administration

[question everything]

92. This is offensive to the so many refugees who came here, escaping

their oppressed governments: the juntas in Argentina and Chile and Uruguay; the Shah of Iran, the military in Greece and so many other countries.

Those were refugees who escaped their oppressed regimes and would march here, waving the flags of their countries, protesting the dictatorship, hoping some day to go back.

Thus, for Mexicans who are not refugees, who do not protest anything in their country to wave the Mexican flag while wanting to become U.S. citizens is offensive to all peace loving people all over the world, who used their flags to express their yearn for democracy in their countries.

[TrueAmerican]

132. THAN THEY NEED TO STAY AND FIGHT

IN MEXICO!!! IT'S THAT SIMPLE.

[corporate_mike]

99. picture

[SeaBob]

77. flag waving

I would rather see protesters waving a mexican flag then repukes in congress wrapping them selves in the American flag claiming to be patriots:puke:

[merh]

167. I do believe your statement is one of the wisest statements

in this thread.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

95. Are You Kidding? She Looks To Be 15 Dude. Seriously, That's A Bit Sick.

:rofl:

[acmavm]

2. A number of us are waiting for a valid explanation of this strange

behavior. You would think that since the majority of people polled want immigration laws enforced, and since the current bill in front of the House is so drastic, the protesters would try to win friends and gain sympathy.

Waving the flag of a foreign country is not the way do to that.

[Redstone]

9. They're our next-door neighbors, for Chrissake.

How about a bit of neighborliness?

Redstone

[mondo joe]

24. How about my neighbor not sneaking in without permission?

[EFerrari]

37. I f you didn't set his home on fire, he might not need to.

He really doesn't want to in the first place.

See: History of US interference in Latin America.

peace, mondo. We are reaping what our government has sown.

[mondo joe]

41. Mexico is on fire? Well that's different.

But if he's just sneaking in without permission for economic opprtunism that's a problem.

[EFerrari]

48. I wholeheartedly agree. n/t

[mondo joe]

53. Then you know what you need to do: open the borders to your home.

Let any in who wish to stay, and for as long as they like, to share in your resources and no doubt contribute back.

Okay?

[EFerrari]

161. I've lived that way for years. We call it California. n/t

[mondo joe]

181. How many people live in your home? How do you let people

know they have open access to your residence?

[QC]

52. Not only is Mexico on fire, but *you* set that fire.

Why, Mondo? Why?

[Inland]

104. Does any nation outside of Latin America, then, get immig. rights to US?

Assuming arguendo that damage to a nation creates a right of its citizens to immigrate here, and the US did that sort of damage to Latin America, then it's pretty much just Latins who get to come here, right? Persons from other nations, no matter how poor, have no right to immigrate?

[RagingInMiami]

27. It would be one thing if they're burning the American flag

I'm blown away by the number of people that are offended by the Mexican flag waving. This is, after all, the United States. I imagine that falls under the First Amendment.

[acmavm]

43. It is, as you say THE UNITED STATES. If they want to wave a flag

I would suggest it be that one of the country in which they want to live. And before you think about saying anything I want to tell you that I have seen the American flags being waved as a tribute to this country and the opportunity that they think it has to offer. In fact, I would think that the wiser heads amongst the demonstrators would discourage (firmly I might add) the Mexican flag waving if not for any other reason that the resentment it causes.

And something that the pro-illegal people never ever seem to want to explain is AT WHAT POINT do we say enough and try to reign in the ILLEGAL entry into this country. Do you think that we can just absorb every single poor person who can manage to make it across our borders? And I don't just mean our southern borders, although that is the one that is generally being accessed.

[RagingInMiami]

58. I have seen both Mexican and American flags at those demonstrations

[acmavm]

72. Apparently you didn't read what I said. I acknowledged the fact that

there have been American flags flown at the demonstrations.

[question everything]

94. Sadly, this seems to be the trend here

people do not read the complete post but shoot first and then, maybe, are trying to read.

And then we wonder why some claim that "democrats" or "liberals" hate America. Once can clearly get this notion by reading all those who justify the waving of the Mexican flag that this country used to, or should in the future be Mexican.

And then we wonder why we lose voters with this kind of an attitude.

[mondo joe]

45. Of course offensive speech falls under the First Amendment.

That is rather the point.

Constitutional protection doesn't make anything inoffensive.

[RagingInMiami]

61. So you're offended by the Mexican flag waving?

[mondo joe]

63. Nope. I think it's a poor choic of messaging for their cause.

But if that's how they want to make their case, it's their call.

Please note, I NEVER said the Mexican flag is offensive. I responed to your question about offensive speech and the first amendment.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

55. I'm not at all offended by waving the mexican flag

I'm just offended by the ones raising it above the US flag. (of course, it is still free speech so they definitely have the right to do it). Sometimes, I wonder if this whole thing is a right wing ploy to divide liberals.

[proud2BlibKansan]

114. Me too!

It seems so petty to complain about the fucking flag.

[EFerrari]

3. For an oppressed people, this is an expression of love

for their families and for their community. They don't get to do that very often. And they have to take a lot of sh!t just to work. Just to go to work.

It is not an attempt at hostile takeover. :)

[Redstone]

7. Well, that's what I MEANT to say upthread; I just got distracted.

Sorry.

Redstone

[EFerrari]

22. I bet you're sorry.

:)

[Redstone]

28. Nah.

Redstone

[Disturbed]

10. Are they expressing their love for their country?

I don't understand it, yet. I feel that it is counter productive and it angers many people that may be sympathetic to Mexican Immigrants, legally in the US or otherwise.

Have any of the people that are displaying the flag of Mexico explained their reason for doing so?

[EFerrari]

21. In Mexican culture, the line between family, community and country

is different from ours.

And no, I haven't talked to anyone and yes, I see how it will be seen here. Culture clash.

[Lefty48197]

151. Look at the cars driven by Mexican-Americans

it seems like every single one of them has a sticker or a small Mexican flag on it somewhere. Christ, it's what they DO. They fly their flag. BFD.

[countryjake]

170. It's solidarity.

Mount Vernon students protest immigration proposal
http://www.king5.com/topstories/stories/NW_033106WABstudentwalkoutEL.7ccaa3f8.html

~snip~

Some 200 students rallied at the Skagit County Courthouse Friday to protest legislation that would make illegal immigration a felony.

The issue is now being argued in Congress. If the legislation is passed, the protestors say many of their friends and families would be criminalized because of their search for a better life.

"It's going to affect all our families, it’s going to affect all of the people that we love,” one protestor said.

"We aren't skipping; we're doing this for our parents because we don't want them to go back to Mexico or wherever they were from,” said a student named Antonio.


NO TO HR4437
http://www.skagitvalleyherald.com/index.html

~snips~

Students from Mount Vernon High, La Venture and Mount Baker middle schools and Western Washington University gathered Friday morning at the courthouse to protest proposed immigration reform. Across the nation, thousands of students walked out of school in similar protest.

“My family has been here for 15 years, are they now going to say, ‘thanks for your hard work, you can leave now?’”

The reform in question would make it a felony to assist illegal immigrants, even if for humanitarian reasons.




These demonstrators are afraid that House bill, which is already halfway there to becoming law in this country, might pass thru the Senate, also. The protests are in opposition to Sensenbrenner's HR 4437, a move by the conservative right-wing that would criminalize 10 million people in this country, and those who love and care about them. The flags are symbols of solidarity with their friends and loved ones.

[DeaconBlues]

13. "It is not an attempt at hostile takeover."

Are you sure? Maybe for many its not, but this picture from New York seems to indicate that many of the protesters don't share your opinion.








Funny, I don't remember ever reading that Mexicans and other Hispanics were living in Manhatten before the horrible white man came.

[EFerrari]

I'd consider the source. This is the same paper that told you

there was no problem in OH even after frustrated voters stormed the state house. :eyes:

[DeaconBlues]

84. what has the source got to do with it?

It is a picture of a protest for illegal immigration, live and in color. Do you deny that this sign was carried at this demonstration?

[SeveneightyWhoa]

173. LOL!

I deny the sign's existence! It's Photoshopped ... by Karl Rove!

[sce56]

34. ¡EXCUSE ME N.Y. NOT! ¡THAT WAS FROM LA LAST WEEKEND!

The original post is from here http://la.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/151463.php?theme=1

While you are at it look up the site
http://www.mexica-movement.org

I see more Stars & Stripes here than Mexican flags



And this is the post you took it from! http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2202383

I ought to know about it I marched along with my two children that day not bad for a retired Army Sgt who's ancestors founded the city of Los Angeles back in 1781 while George Washington was fighting for the original 13 Colonies.

[DeaconBlues]

85. I stand corrected

I thought it was a picture from N.Y. since I saw it in a thread here at D.U. that was talking about a demonstration in New York. Whether its from L.A. or N.Y., its still an ignorant sign that represents an ignorant attitude that will do nothing but scare off potential supporters.

[sce56]

135. If you would have read the post I made you would have seen I said LA

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=816765&mesg_id=817121 Probably another under count Like the one in LA
upwards of 1.5 to 2Mill marched last weekend the biggest march ever in LA

This picture shows just one of the four streets that were full for miles of people marching to city hall!

from http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2202383#2202403

[Kerrytravelers]

199. This one is funny!

:thumbsup:

[Swamp Rat]

205. ¡Órale!

:D Me encanta este:

[Kerrytravelers]

206. I LOVE those! OMG!

I have to live under schwartsennidiot. I'm so sick of that fool!

AAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Swamp Rat]

209. I wish I could take credit for the first one!

I LOVE it!

[Kerrytravelers]

211. You have plenty of great ones you can take credit for!

[Inland]

86. That's a fair mix of flags.

Aside from the sign, it's clearly more american flags than anything else, and that's a symbolism that makes sense at a rally for rights re: immigration.

[RagingInMiami]

125. NY, LA

Baghdad, Istanbul. It's all the same, isn't it?

[DeaconBlues]

152. No, its not the same at all

The sign from the immigration protest above means the same whether it was from L.A. or if was from N.Y. It suggests that there is only room for one type of person in this entire continent. I'm sorry I made the mistake of thinking a picture from a thread on a protest in N.Y. came from the protest in N.Y. But I'm real happy don't you seem to never make any mistakes.

The Baghdad picture flap was an attempt to deceive the public about progress in the war. It was an attempt at deception, while I made an honest mistake. Too bad you don't have the capacity to tell these two things apart.

[RagingInMiami]

166. Too bad you don't have the capacity

to laugh at yourself.

[Cobalt Violet]

156. How the hell do they get everyone to wear white?

Except for the guys holding the huge banner.

[Aimah]

49. It's possible

Mexicans are Indians with Spanish blood from the Spaniards that colonized. They're the same people that came over the straight long before the "horrible white man"

Did you notice all of the American flags? I see maybe one Mexican flag possibly.

[DeaconBlues]

89. my concern was with the sign that dominates the picture

it says a lot about the attitudes that some of these protesters have about their "adopted" country.

As far as the heritage of most Mexicans are concerned, they are not Indians who happened to have been conquered by the Spaniards. They are both Indian and Spanish. That means that their ancestors conquered the indigenous people of Mexico and assimilated them, just like Europeans did to North American tribes. Does this mean that you think that Mexico should be conquered by pure-blood tribes just because most Mexicans have ancestors who were the conquering white Spanish?

[RagingInMiami]

64. Look at all the American flags

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

115. I think some on this thread are not interested in the fact that there's a

lot of American flags there but choose to dwell on the fact that Mexican flags were waved at all.

[RaleighNCDUer]

88. The majority of Mexicans are not hispanic, they are indiginous

Americans. Directly descended from the native peoples of the SW and Mexico.

The only ones who have a real right to object to their presence in NY are the Iriqouian tribes that were the previous inhabitants.

[Lefty48197]

153. Personally, I get a BIG kick out of White people from TX, AZ, NM, or CA

bitching about how the "Mexicans" are invading "their" land, even though the "Mexicans" were there 10,000 years before any fucking European set foot there.

[question everything]

188. Shall we, then, move the border

so that CA, AZ, NM and TX be part of Mexico? Or should we open the border and welcome everyone from Mexico who wants to come over and to claim their former land? Should this be allowed only in these four states?

Just curious about what you think should be done to correct the injustice that was done to the Mexicans by the "fucking Europeans."

It is very easy to spout offensive words, to just sit, nod and click on a keyboard. A lot harder to offer a suggestion.

[laheina]

219. Some Latinos are indigenous.

Many of these object to being called "hispanics," because while they live in Latino culture, speak Spanish, etc., they are of Indigenous ancestry.

There are Latinos of Black, White, Spanish, Asian, and other ancestry. Like our country, their backgrounds are also very diverse.

[babylonsister]

5. Because they're proud of their heritage and don't think they

should be penalized for it?

[question everything]

23. No one is penalizing them for their heritage

that's why I mentioned Cinco de Mayo.

But they are marching in protest of immigration law. This means that they want to stay in this country, perhaps even gain citizenship. How does waving a Mexican flag show their desire to "pledge allegiance to the (U.S.) flag" once they become citizens?

Why should anyone believe their pledge, if and when they get to offer it?

[babylonsister]

51. The U.S. USED to be a melting pot. I'm part Irish; my mom

made corned beef, cabbage, Irish soda bread, the whole shebang on St. Pat's Day. Was that 'allowed'?:eyes: Maybe we should have had hot dogs and apple pie.

[mondo joe]

56. Don't confuse your heritage with the flag of a foreign nation.

You are your heritage and you carry it with you in your customs, language, food and so on.

Flags represent nations - politicallly organized bodies under a government.

[babylonsister]

144. Baloney. The Mexicans can fly their flag proudly; that's their

heritage. Since we weren't from the old country, first generation, we didn't. Plus, Mom was German.
Flags represent nations, which is what this country is composed of, not the have or have mores who are lucky enough to be here through no fault of their own.

[RagingInMiami]

65. Allowed only on St. Patrick's Day

[question everything]

87. s-l-o-w-l-y: yes, all of us are proud of our heritage

eating tacos, and pizza, and corned beef and cabbage, and falafel and hummus and gyros and other delicacies that cannot remember right now.

But think of the context: they are protesting immigration laws of this country, their host country, the country of which they want to become citizens (or so they say), the country where they want to live - legally or illegally.

So which is it? Do they want to become Americans, or to they want to enjoy whatever the good life they think they can have here, while still claim to be Mexicans?

And about the third possibility that too many here happily support: take over this country because it was once theirs - if this is so, I will be first in line to escort them back to Tijuana. Because what and I and many are fighting for the soul of this country - is to it to be American, not Mexican. If I wanted to live in a Mexican state I would move to Mexico... which is what they should if this is how they feel.

[Zookeeper]

215. Well said, Question Everything!

There are a few people on DU who seem to think that Mexican citizens have a "right" to be here illegally.

Their reasoning runs along the lines of:

-The Southwest used to belong to Mexico. (I'm not sure why that applies to the rest of the U.S.)

-Many Mexicans have an indigenous heritage. (So, do the northern Chippewa and Sioux people, who are still suffering from discrimination and lack of employment.)

-They are already here. (So, if I break into a house and take up residence, I'm entitled to stay?)

-They want to work. (As do thousands of poor people from all over the world.)

-Americans won't do these jobs anyway. (Too silly to even address anymore.)

-Anyone who disagrees with them is racist. (Although I don't see them falling all over themselves with concern for traditionally under-educated and unemployed African-Americans or the Native-American people from the north, or concerned about the well-being of our LEGAL immigrants, many of whom are refugees from Africa and Asia.)

I also detect an attitude that says we have no right to enforce our immigration laws, have any concern about jobs for American citizens (of all races) or worry about the environmental impact of millions more people moving here IF it involves Hispanics. ("They are coming, can't be stopped, deal with it.") If 12 million Canadians, Czechs or Chinese dropped in on us illegally, I can't believe they would be so welcoming.

IMHO, there is a double-standard at work here.


On edit: As far as a solution, the House bill is ridiculous. The Senate bill is better, but I will have a VERY hard time supporting any bill that doesn't focus on holding EMPLOYERS accountable for creating and maintaining the flow of illegal workers.

[question everything]

232. Thank you for a well reasoned post

you raised important points that are not going to be resolved here.

[Ignacio Upton]

116. Hotdogs came from Germany

So technically they're not "American" food, at least in the WASP sense of American cruisine before post-Revolutionary War immigrants.

[babylonsister]

145. I knew there would be one in the crowd after I posted that;

Mom was German. :P

[Swamp Rat]

207. Enshuldigung!

:P :D

[Kerrytravelers]

198. Hey Do you fly the Flag of Erin? Erin Go Braugh?

Conas tá; tú? Tá mé go hiontach. Slán go fóill!

Call immigration. I'm speaking Irish Gaelic! The English banned Gaelic! Oh no! :scared:





Of course, the last picture has English on it, so I'm sure it's more acceptable. And if you think there aren't illegal irish over here... I guarentee you, there are. ;)

[blogslut]

8. flags

[VirtualChicano]

11. Mexico is not Ireland...

Mexico is not Ireland or Italy. This land belonged to Mexico and was stolen at the point of a gun by the United States. Where is the rule that states there must be a parade in order to waive the flag of one's country of origin? This is nothing more than free speech and freedom of expression. and a strong sense of pride in a land that has increasingly become hostile to Mexicans, Mexican-Americans and Chicanos.

[EFerrari]

29. There you go, bringing up that whole free speech thing.

:spank:

[VirtualChicano]

36. Please don't flame, just explain.

I am sure there were many threads about this. Even for those of us who sympathize with the plight of immigrants - legal and illegal - seeing the tens of thousands protesters waving the Mexican flag raise questions.

Why? What message are they sending? If they want to live in this country, why wave the Mexican (or any other flag for that matter)?

This is not Cinco de Mayo, or Columbus Day or St. Patrick Day parades where the Mexican, the Italian and the Irish flags are waved in honor of these countries. Why wave the flag of a foreign nation while protesting the immigration laws of this country?

Please don't flame, just explain.

Thanks.

[EFerrari]

40. Not flaming, sorry. Just trying to lighten the conversation.

That flag is one of the few ties back to home and culture. That's all.

[VirtualChicano]

50. yup

no biggie

:)

[Llewlladdwr]

192. The best thing about freedom of speech...

is that it goes both ways. Protestors are free to wave the Mexican flag if they so desire. I'm free to contact my Senators and Representative and let them know that I strongly support passage of HR 4437 and S 2454.

Everybody wins! Or not....

[Kerrytravelers]

200. You support making illegals criminals?

Wow.

I'll never report my students who are here illegally. I'd rather go to jail than reveal them. in y classroom, they are safe and have a chance at a better life. My kids try hard and want to learn English and be successful.

That's just me. Not trying to start shit, but I just couldn't help myself!

[mondo joe]

202. Well actually, illegals are by definition criminals, aren't they?

The proposed legislation is to make them felons.

(I don't support that legislation, incidentally, just clarifying.)

[Kerrytravelers]

212. Immigration is certainly an issue. But I agree with you, I do not

support this new proposed law.

[Llewlladdwr]

204. Yes, I do.

Being successful starts with learning to play by the rules. I find it totally unfair that people come to this country illegally and expect to be allowed to stay when there are many thousands waiting in line to get in legally. I'm jumping through hoops now trying to get the paperwork done for an H-1B visa for a potential new hire. Why should someone else just get to stroll across the border and stay?

[Kerrytravelers]

213. Since I don't know you, I don't know your story.

My students whom I know to be illegal were fleeing their home country because they were targeted by someone and violence was threatened or their family was starving and they're doing all they can to help their children. None of my students families are criminals, but people who were desperate.

But like I said, I don't know your story or anything about you, so I can't have a dialog comparing their situation to yours.

[Critters2]

71. Bullshit!

The portion of this cation where I live NEVER belonged to Mexico. The areas of the 13 Original colonies, the Northwest Territories, The Louisiana Purchase, Alaska and Hawaii were never owned by Mexico. But even for the portions that were, so what? You think they should be ceded bakc, to be governed as badly as Mexico? Remember, immigrants are LEAVING Mexico, because a bad job here is better than what they had there.

Mexico is even a bigger mess than the USA.

[VirtualChicano]

107. That's because 60%

<Mexico is even a bigger mess than the USA.>

That's because 60% of Mexico's territory and resources were stolen, otherwise "Americans" would be the "illegals."

<You think they should be ceded bakc, to be governed as badly as Mexico?>

HAHAHAHA you so funny.

do you think New England should be returned to England?

[mondo joe]

127. By "stolen" you might mean "lost in war".

Same way the US colonies were lost to England.

[VirtualChicano]

137. No, I mean STOLEN

No, I mean STOLEN, at the point of a gun.

The treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo maintained all Mexican property rights and land grants. The "Americans" came and broke the treaty and stole the land.

[mondo joe]

142. Well you can certainly contribute to making it right by giving your

home and possessions to an illegal immigrant.

[question everything]

102. Shall we, than give this country, or at least California, Texas and

Arizona back to Mexico. Are all the people on this board who live in these states would be willing to be part of Mexico?

Why such a self-loathing sentiment, or, why such a sentiment not followed by action, beyond nodding and clicking? If you think that you should be a Mexican citizen, by all means, put your moccasins where your fingers are and move there... build an underground group to take over Alta California.

[VirtualChicano]

113. This is a RACIST statement

<Are all the people on this board who live in these states would be willing to be part of Mexico?>

Why are you asking me?

[mondo joe]

121. What's racist about it? Nothing.

[VirtualChicano]

128. put your moccasins where your fingers are and move there

put your moccasins where your fingers are and move there

THIS IS A RACIST COMMENT THAT SHOULD BE REPORTED TO THE MODERATORS.

[question everything]

131. I am asking you in response to this comment by you:

"This land belonged to Mexico and was stolen at the point of a gun by the United States."

That comment implied that the people from Mexico have a right to take over this country and that coming over - whether legally or illegally - is part of their plan and that we should just accept this.

Thus, I wonder whether you suggest that turning over California and Texas to Mexico is the right thing to do.

I responded to your message, not to you personally.

[VirtualChicano]

140. Huh?

<I wonder whether you suggest that turning over California and Texas to Mexico is the right thing to do.>

Stop your wondering, my answer is NO.

Do you think California and Texas shopuld be turned over to Mexico, just wondering?

"This land belonged to Mexico and was stolen at the point of a gun by the United States."

<That comment implied that the people from Mexico have a right to take over this country>

You extrapolate too much

[babylonsister]

148. "Put your moccasins where your fingers are..." HUH?

Jeeze, who have you been listening to? :wtf:

[VirtualChicano]

169. That was his comment to me

That was his comment to me.

I have no idea who he's been listening to but i'll bet it wasn't an academic

[Cleita]

12. Let me guess.

If I lived in a Latin American country and the natives referred to me as a gringa behind my back and excluded me from most of their society, but didn't mind if I spent money at their stores even though they were surveilling me because I might steal, I might be inclined to wave an American flag at a protest or any gathering of other Americans.

[question everything]

15. If I lived in a country that excluded me from its society

and would treat me shabbily... well I would leave that country.

However, if I wanted to remain in that country and wanted to become an equal resident, to be treated with respect I would show my support for that country be waving its flag, not the one of my country of origin.

If you want to stay in this country and you are waving the Mexican flag - what kind of a message are you sending? For most voters this means only one thing: screw you!

As a reporter said on Bill Maher last night - the Mexicans are now the largest minority and pretty soon will be the majority.

So you can see many bigoted and racists who would say: oh no. If you love Mexico so much that you wave its flag - by all means, go back there.

I lived in California when Prop. 187 passed. I remember agreeing with some of it, but it was used by the Republicans to promote so much hatred and bigotry that I voted NO. (It passed but later was struck down by the CA supreme court).

As Congress is debating this reform, what kind of message, do you think, members of Congress hear from their constituents who see those photos?

They are not stupid. Is this a way to send a message? to transform the public mind?

[EFerrari]

30. Maybe these people were affirming their identity,

not trying to massage yours. :eyes:

[question everything]

39. What is their identity? Do they want to be US citizens?

do they expect some day to pledge allegiance to the US flag?

If their first and foremost identity is Mexicans, then why do they want to stay here? to influence the vote in the US Congress where it is the US flag that is flown?

If you'd bother to read the one to which I was replying instead of just continue on an attack mode, you may not have been firing your gun so quickly.


:puke:

[EFerrari]

46. This is very interesting because I have no wish to attack anyone.

And apparently, you have no wish to understand anyone who might hold different beliefs than yourself. And, you seem to have no understanding of what might cause people to leave their home to feed their family. Clue: it's not a sale at a mall.

And I wonder, who are you to decide for any human being what they should treasure?

We seem to be at a stalemate.

[QC]

62. "You couldn't do this to me if I wasn't in this wheel chair."

"But ya are Blanche, but ya are."

[EFerrari]

157. LOL!

[ninkasi]

93. Something strange about beliefs

A few years ago, before we moved, my husband and I lived across the street from a couple which had an Irish husband, although 3rd generation, and an English wife. When Princess Diana died, our neighbors flew the Union Jack. Several neighbors placed flowers on their porch. Nobody saw the British flag as a token of anything except acknowledgment that the wife in this case came from England.

None of the neighbors saw anything sinister in flying the British flag, we all took it to mean an expression of support for our British friend. If I were to move to another country, there would always be part of me which would wish to support the U.S.

This is an incredibly complex issue, and being born and raised in Houston, Tx., I might have a different point of view compared to other people. I was born in 1943, and even though the schools were segregated when it came to blacks, the Latino students came to schools that would have been considered white. The drum major of my high school's drill team was Latina. Another was one of the Thespian Society's most respected stars.

In the late 50's, my older brother married a woman whose mother was born in Guadalajara. Her father was an American Consulate. I married, a couple of years later, my sister-in-law's cousin. Later, in an even more strange twist, my younger brother married my sister-in law's sister...my own brother's sister-in-law, and our older brother's brother-in-law.

These intertwined relationships are not unusual for Texas, and other border states. My second husband's father was Puerto Rican, and while his mother was not Latina,she spoke Spanish, as do I. His oldest granddaughter has two children whose father is the son of naturalized Americans, of Mexican origin.The reality is that for some of us, our lives are so entwined with those of latino descent, it's hard to know what view is right. For us, the argument about immigrants, legal or illegal, it's also about family members, and very close friends.

They would not come here, if every employer refused to hire them. For the well off, however there is always that bottom line, and how to pay the least salary for the most amount of work. If the government were truly serious about stopping illegal immigration, it would be doing much, much more to penalize employers of illegal immigrants.

[question everything]

106. I am having hard time time understating why you, and others

cannot see the difference.

It is one thing to wave a flag in solidarity with another country - as so many waved the stars and stripes after 9/11, even in Tehran, according to the movie "why we fight."

And, of course, many waved the Mexican flag during the world cup (that's soccer match) when one of the team was from Mexico.

Similarly, as I said in my very first post - we wave other flags when we celebrate holidays that originate in Mexican, Italian, Greek or Japanese tradition.

Also, we have had refugees waving the flags of their home states dominated by dictators, expressing their hopes for democracy and to come home.

But in this case you have people who want to be citizens of this country, or who already are, who want to, supposedly, pledge allegiance to the stars and stripes but instead are waving foreign flags and they think that this is a way to influence voters and their representatives in Congress now debating immigration reforms?

[EFerrari]

160. I agree. For some of us, it is about complicated but immediate

relationships, not about what is good in the abstract. My mother's family were immigrants in the 50s. Legal ones but at bottom, I don't care if they were legal or not. They are my family. And living where I do in California, I've made many friendships, been the recipient of a thousand kindnesses from people whose papers are not in order. And the victimization is als not an abstraction to me but things that happened to my friends and neighbors. That is what it is, to live in this community.

[northzax]

187. better example

I have a good friend who is applying for US residency and eventual citizenship in the US (from the UK) When DHS comes to her house to interview her, do you think she should be flying the US flag, or the Union Jack? Which one sends the message that "I want to be an American?" sure, fly the Jack on the Queen's birthday, and Guy Falkes day, just as when I lived overseas, I flew the US flag on the Fourth.

Imagine, just as an idea, that you work at Microsoft. And you are hiring a new employees, who comes into the office with a Linux sticker on her briefcase. What's your first thought? this is someone really interested in becoming part of our culture?

[ninkasi]

226. Sorry for my late response

The couple I mentioned only flew the Union Jack when Princess Diana died. Normally, they fly the American flag for 4th of July, Veteran's Day, etc. This was only one day, and it was because of the loss of a British princess, and regardless of anybody else's ideas about the pros and cons of a monarchy, it was done to show respect to the wife.

So, in that instance, they only flew the British flag in response to a British loss. I think each of us comes into the immigration debate with our own personal experiences determining our feelings. Because my brother and I both married into Latino families, even though they were legal, we did have occasion to hear of other people's attempts to gain U.S. citizenship.

It's one thing to talk about "illegals", or "illegal immigrants", and quite another to use the same terms to describe your friend, and legal resident Humberto's battle to have his sister join the ones in the family legally living here. The sister might be named Rosa, and after meeting her at many family gatherings, it's very difficult to switch from thinking of her as Humberto's sister Rosa, as opposed to thinking of that illegal Latina.

When some of us have been immersed in Mexican, or Latino culture for almost 50 years, it's hard to change the way we feel about people we know and love. My own family came over here in the very early 1600s. No doubt some Mexican-American families were here, living in what is now Texas, when my family got here. This is not a simple issue, and the solution will not be simple, but some provision should be made to respect the people who are hired by companies who don't give a damn about them, but absolutely love paying below minimum wage to their workers.

[northzax]

228. I never intended to denigrate anyone

simply to point out that, if you are trying to get Americans to accept you as a fellow American, if that is the debate at hand (which it is) then showing allegiance to another country first is, perhaps, not the best way to go about it. Image is everything in a debate like this, and the actions of a few protesters (like the MexicoFirst crowd) are making life more difficult for the others. The story becomes about the radicals, not the silent ultra-majority just trying to make their lives better. And that's not a good thing.

Everyone has the Constitutional right to fly whatever flag they wish, and speak of allegiance to any country they wish (unless, of course, they work for the military or the government and are on duty) But it's not good politics to do it in every circumstance.

[mondo joe]

47. You mean they don't identify as US citizens?

Interesting.

[Cleita]

35. I never understoond that.

It made sense to be that to operate heavy machinery you would have to be licensed no matter what your citizenship is. If they didn't want to give them California driver's licenses, couldn't they at least allow them to get Mexican driver's licenses and honor them here? I know many visitors are allowed to drive if they have licenses from the country of their orgin.

[mondo joe]

19. And if I wanted to be a part of that country and a citizen I'd embrace

THAT country.

[EFerrari]

33. Would you be willing to disrespect your ancestors to do that?

It does look, it seems, to American eyes, as if it is a taunt.

These people are just trying to hang onto their identity. Chill. It's not WMD.

[mondo joe]

54. It's no disrespect to my ancestors to honor the country I choose to be a

citizen of.

Please excuse my saying so, but that is the dumbest fucking thing in this whole thread.

Don't confuse personal heritage with national flag. I carry my heritage in me, not in the flag of a foreign nation.

[EFerrari]

163. And that's your way, not everyone's culture or way of expressing

themselves.

Again with the insulting of other peoples' way of being and doing.

[mondo joe]

174. Insulting? Did I say they were wrong? No.

Your oblique insults are tiresome and cowardly.

[EFerrari]

176. There is nothing "oblique" in my responses to your baiting.

:hi:

[mondo joe]

180. Then please cite when I ever insulted their cultue.

Thank you.

[slaveplanet]

14. why monkeys on a stamp?

and why is it on a cbs website?

[RagingInMiami]

20. Cultural pride maybe

You see, unlike Americans -- who suddenly become Mexican on Cinco de Mayo and Irish on St. Patrick's Day, Mexicans are Mexican 365 days a year. And they're not ashamed of it.

With all due respect, that was a pretty stupid question. Maybe you shouldn't question everything.

[question everything]

32. I thought that they wanted to be Americans 365 days

besides, there is some common sense.

You are protesting upcoming bills in Congress. Members of Congress usually listen to their constituents - especially now that they went home for Easter break.

How, do you think, most voters will react to such display of "loyalty" by people who want to become citizens of this country?

If some day they want to become citizens, and will have to "pledge allegiance to the (U.S.) flag" why should anyone take them seriously when it is clearly their allegiance is to the Mexican flag?

And calling me names just shows that you have nothing of relevance to contribute to the discussion.

Like curses, it is the last refuge of the one who ran out of ideas, who has never had any

[laura888]

80. bravo. well said! n/t

[RaleighNCDUer]

96. You are being deliberately obtuse, leading me to question

just why you are in this debate.

Strawman: How, do you think, most voters will react to such display of "loyalty" by people who want to become citizens of this country?

What makes you think they want to become citizens? That is what YOU are saying, so you can attack that argument. I don't hear them saying that.

Here's a similar thoughtful argument: Why would a racist prick be participating in a liberal/democratic board?

Please, stick to the point and argue this issue, not if someone here is a racist prick, because that has nothing to do with the argument.

(And before you yell and scream, please note, I didn't call anyone a racist prick -- I simply asked a question.)

Strawman.

[mondo joe]

101. Oh, the immigration cause isn't about becoming citizens?

If it's just about getting work visas I wish that was made more clear.

[RaleighNCDUer]

108. You bet your ass.

Why do you think 20% return home after a few years? They are here for the money, the work, the opportunities that are not available to them at home.

If you lived in a tropical paradise, would you move to Milwaukee if you didn't have to?

If our employers didn't hire them, and if our economic policies didn't gut their economy, they wouldn't come here.

It's all about the jobs.

Yes, a great many wind up staying, because they have nothing to go back to. Hell, we can't keep our own kids on the farms in Iowa and Kansas for lesser reasons -- do you think the immigrants really want to go back to some dirt-street village where there are no jobs? You ever consider that they are able to be exploited because the outrageous conditions they have to put up with are a vast improvement to living in the slums of Mexico City? If it wasn't an improvement, why would they come here?

I believe that a guest worker program, that falls within the bounds of the US labor laws - no special provisions because of them being guest workers - would increase the number of people who would return home. Their earnings, and therefore their savings, would be bigger and they would have better capacity to start their own businesses at home, where everybody speaks their own language, their own dialect, where all their relatives live and where their ancestors are buried.

They would rather stay at home! The protest is not about them wanting to become US citizens. It's about the injustice of making criminals of millions of honest, hard-working people as a matter of public policy. It is a fight against corporate fascism running the government.

They can only be exploited if they are illegal.

[mondo joe]

118. Well they should just say so then. "We don't want to live in your

fucking country, we'ds just doing it to make some money" would be a refreshingly honest statement.

[Disturbed]

42. "Maybe you shouldn't question everything."

Hmmmmmmmm?

[RagingInMiami]

60. Just a play on his username

Nothing more, nothing less. He can question anything he wants.

[Inland]

79. Maybe you are right, but if so, it doesn't answer the question.

It's a rally for immigration rights, and you say that they are flying a flag because they are Mexican three hundred sixty five days a year. It's the latter fact that makes me wonder why they would be allowed to immigrate, and why they would want to. At the very least, there should be some indication of a desire to hyphenate.

That's sorta what makes it different than a Mexican parade in Mexico, or even a Cinco de Mayo parade in the US. A rally for immigration to the US might have some flags that sent a more directed and relevant message, for example, an American flag, or both flags, or clothing that was a combo.

[Kerrytravelers]

203. I'm Celtic 365 baby. I have Irish and Scottish blood.

I have a Scottish hand an Irish flag on my car. I guess I'm unpatriotic for not having an American flag as well, stuck higher on my car, above the other two flags.

Well, they are small stickers, and from a white country, so I guess I'm ok...


I am certainly not directly calling anyone a racist. But look at me. How is what I'm doing any different than what the Mexican protesters is doing?

[Aristus]

31. Let them show their pride. I don't have a problem with that.

When the racist rednecks of ole Dixie flail the slave flag in our faces, they screech that it's just part of their "heritage". And we have to be okay with that for some reason.

Since Mexico didn't fight a war to preserve slavery, (at least not with us) I don't see why they shouldn't be proud of their native country, even as they strive to become citizens of this country.

[RaleighNCDUer]

98. Actually, Mexico outlawed slavery 40 years before the US did.

Which was part of why Texas rebelled and why we fought a war with Mexico - to preserve our god-given right to own slaves in Mexican territory.

[QC]

138. But debt peonage persisted well into the 20th century. n/t

[Aristus]

184. I didn't know that.

That's very interesting. Explains why the Texans were in an all-fire hurry to be annexed by the U.S., doesn't it?

[Redstone]

38. Well, I'm out of this xenophobic, jingoistic thread before I barf.

Sons and daughters of immigrants all, you are, and your forefathers had to put up with the same kind of racist, arrogant crap that you are now spewing at the Mexicans.

You shame your ancestors by turning into the EXACT same kind of people who called your great-grandparents Wops and Kikes and Spics and Krauts and Micks and Dagos.

They didn't want YOUR kind here, just like you don't want THEIR kind here now.

Bad cess on the lot of you. I'm done with reading this vile spew.

Redstone

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[countryjake]

68. Non-assimilation has been used against many minorities...

in this country to deny them rights to citizenship as "Americans". Mondo, why would you support that practice and deny anyone the right to respect their own culture and nation of heritage, if you, yourself, have ancestors who were not originally from this country?

[mondo joe]

69. When did I ever deny anyone any such right or seek to?

People are free to fly any flag they like - Mexican, US, Confederate, Italian, Rainbow or whatever.

I have no interest in stopping them, and I wouldn't if I had the power to do so.

That does not, however, limit my freedom to comment.

[countryjake]

70. Then I guess I don't understand why you have problems...

with the point those demonstrators are trying to make.

[mondo joe]

74. I have plenty of problems with a lot of things people are free to do.

I have a problem with things Bill O'Reilly says but I respect his right to say them.

I'll do this next part in caps, for emphasis: DON'T CONFUSE DISAGREEMENT WITH TAKING AWAY SOMEONE'S RIGHT TO SAY OR DO THEY THING YOU DISAGREE WITH.

Okay?

[Heidi]

178. Why do you use an ethnic slur to describe your ancestors?

Is Italian really that difficult to spell?

[mondo joe]

189. I used it in response to a message that used it. And I used it because

it is just a word. Consider it "reclaimed language" if you like.

[DeaconBlues]

100. Good-bye

Can't say I'll miss you. Maybe with your time away, you can study up on the difference between illegal and legal immigration, and why some people might have a problem with people coming to this country and swearing allegiance to another.

[question everything]

109. Well said. Thank you (nt)

[izzybeans]

155. So in your studies have you found the reason "why some people might

have a problem have a problem with coming to this country and swearing allegience to another."

I hope your methodology is sound. I really do.

[foreverdem]

143. Uh, my ancestors came here legally

From Ireland and Italy, processed and documented through Ellis Island (yes, I checked before posting this), as I'm sure many of our ancestors did. That's the difference, they came here legally.

[Katherine Brengle]

168. Amen Redstone.

People like to dismiss this perspective, which is truth, because it is so often used to call them down for their racism and self-righteous nationalistic behavior.

Well done.

[Taxloss]

57. Ask the same question on St Patrick's Day.

The same flag is shown with pride, only the red is more orange, the little eagle device is missing, and no one seems to have a problem with it.

[mondo joe]

66. If the Irish flag were being flown in a protest to gain immigration to the

US it would be just as lame.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

No one complains about it on St Patrick's Day just like no one complains about the Mexican flag on Cinco de Mayo.

That's apples to apples.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

59. Yeah! America! They should love it or leave it! :sarcasm:

[KharmaTrain]

67. A Little Something Called Identity And Dignity

100 years ago my grandparents fled from Eastern Europe...no they didn't wave flags, but then would you if the country you left had pillaged your village? But they still had a tremendous pride for their culture and to merge it with their new American identity.

Over the years, I've had the unique opportunity to observe many cultures. Living in a city with so many diverse groups, I see a combination of assimilation (learning the language, picking up on the popular culture and contributing to the community) while there's still a bond to the native tongue and country. It takes two to three generations for the process to "wash through"...as the children of the immigrants know that English is the language to make real money and get ahead. Many of us who are several generations removed from how our families got here are too far from the forest to understand the emotions here.

Coming up is Polish Independence Day...I'll drive around Chicago and pass through areas where there's Polish flags for as far as the eye can see. I've met people who've been in this city for 40 years who never learned a stitch of English and are considered full-fledged citizens. I've known illegals who hide in the shadows and work in some of the finest corporate offices downtown. The issue isn't as simple as the xenophobes like to paint it.

Mexicans-Americans and their ancestors have been a part of the Southwest for centuries. These are people with a history of exploitation that starts goes back to the Aztec days and only gets worse once Cortez starts marching. Today they're caught between an oligarchy in Mexico that exploits these people for the remittances they send back and a corporate northern neighbor that is addicted to the cheap labor with minimal penalty for exploiting them on either side of the border. There's a lot more to this story that is unknown to the myopic American culture that is being exploited by the Repugnicans and feeding the racist base of their party.

[Inland]

73. It's very simple. They see racism as the only motive for immig. controls

Therefore, the antidote is racial pride. It's as if the dialogue is, "those dirty mexicans shouldn't come here", "We're not dirty at all!".

Thing is, however, racism isn't the only motive, not even the main motive, not even top five, IMO. So most viewers miss the entire dialogue.

Therefore the mexican flag isn't just an irrelevant statment of ethnic pride to most americans, it's a little distracting, because it detracts from the idea that they want to come to the US and live with Americans. You are right: if you wanted to show that America is the desired place to live, and to suck up to the current crop of Americans, you would be honoring an American flag.

[mondo joe]

75. That's actually the best answer I've seen to this issue this whole week.

[Inland]

82. I've made it ten times. But nobody ever bites.

It seems really obvious to me. Racism isn't the only issue, ergo racial pride is not the solution. It's part of it, but it seem to me that the effective symbol would be something like carrying the flags side by side, or combining them, showing that they want to incoporate the US into their identity.

[mondo joe]

83. I agree that combined would be more effective, though problematic

to a degree from a messaging standpoint.

I can say what the current messaging says to me: We want to live in this country but our identity and loyalty is to another nation.

And I don't think that's a compelling case for citizenship.

[Inland]

90. It's not, for sure.

And that too is a different case from the cinco de mayo or St. Pat's parade, where immigration isn't a theme. You can assume that the people at the parade are citizens, or not citizens, but nobody is confusing ethnic pride with a quest for citizenship. Ethnic pride has nothing to do with a quest for citizenship, except as a supposed remedy to the presumed motive of racism, which, as I said before, it not a large part of the motive for immigration controls. Waving a flag of a foreign country detracts from the message of a quest for citizenship.

[Zookeeper]

217. "They see racism as the only motive for immig. controls"

A Mexican reporter who was interviewed after the recent Bush/Fox/Harper press conference suggested that. However, I think that "racism" meme is constantly reinforced for the well-being of Fox's corrupt administration. He and his elite cronies want to make sure Mexican immigrant's loyalties ("legal" or "illegal") remain with Mexico, so they keep sending their money "home."

The Mexican officials, like the reporter, put on their serious faces and disingenously play the race card. Like, NO ONE could explain to Mexicans any other reasons Americans might be reluctant to embrace a huge influx of low-paid workers besides racism????

[Minnesota Libra]

76. Yet they want to make money in our country - go figure!! nt

[gollygee]

81. The same reason my husband flies an Australian flag

and my grandma always flew a Dutch flag.

The American flag is the flag of their adopted land, but they are still Mexican. You don't lose your former life when you move here. You add onto it.

[question everything]

117. Did they wave it to protest immigration law?

This is the point that I don't understand why so many here ignore:

There is nothing wrong with having pride in our heritage, in our land of origin and we express it by eating the food of the old country, by parading and celebrating their nationals days and waving the flags.

But here you have people who want to live in this country - whether as immigrants or as legal residents - they obviously like what they see in this country; they are not refugees fleeing persecution in their country. In this specific case they should show their honor and respect for this country by honoring the American flag, not any other one.

This is about immigration, not about someone's little old aunt.

[bridgit]

91. fair enough, why no Chinese, or Russian flags, why only Mexican...

:shrug:

[Inland]

97. Unanswered question if open borders means open to other than Mexicans.

There's a number of posts about Mexico being our neighbor, number 9, and the US being responsible for it's poverty, no. 37, and that the US stole Mexican land, no. 11. I don't know whether the parties who feel that immigration should be freely allowed really mean anyone besides Mexicans, as their arguments are specific towards Americans. If they mean only Mexicans, then they really aren't talking about removing the stain of discrimination and nationalism; instead of one favored nation being allowed to live in America, it's two, and the rest of the world is still left out. It's still dividing in and out by nations.

Additionally, anyone who thinks the Bushian guest worker program is going to be filled by Mexicans is kidding themselves. It's going to be Chinese and Indians, who work for less and won't be able to go home due to the lack of money. I'm not kidding.

[bridgit]

124. reasonable enough to conclude where a border crosses land...

with thousands running wild through the gates, over and under the fences. perhaps not so 'up front', but there are the stories, as a for instance, of chinese freighters off loading chinese poor from their interior into the san francisco bay for what will become indentured servitude scattered all the way to NYC was a thought of mine

they are here as well, have been for quite some time, in their communities, making no waves, just working

i do hear you about post# 11, i made that point last week, and was roundly pointed to the fact that they, mexicans, stole it from someone else; which i also understand in that my husband is part yaqui indian, still...

there seems little point in even having borders without maintaining them, and the citizenry they define imo

[RaleighNCDUer]

103. What is with all this deification of a flag?

Our flag is not a fucking holy relic.

Their flag is not a symol of demonic forces out to get us.

JUST FUCKING GET OVER IT!!!

[mondo joe]

105. Flags are potent symbols that send a message. If they weren't, they

wouldn't be used.

[RaleighNCDUer]

110. Why potent? What message?

It's all just idolatry.

[mondo joe]

120. Yadda yadda yadda. Then idolatry is potent and sends a message.

Look around you -- Mexican flags, US flags, Confederate flags.

You're in massive denial to not admit they matter.

[RaleighNCDUer]

130. I may be in denial, but that doesn't make it any less stupid.

It's like the difference between reality, and how you feel about reality. Feelings are not real.

A flag is just a piece of cloth that we have been indoctrinated since childhood to revere - so you have flag waving patriots who would shred the constitution in the name of the flag because they can't understand that the flag is not holy, and they are Americans because of the constitution.

The flying of the Mexican flag is just a way of saying, We may be invisible most of the time, but today we are here and you will notice us.

[mondo joe]

136. Feelings aren't real but they have real impact.

That may be the message they think they're sending.

The message the US electorate gets may be something else.

[proud2BlibKansan]

111. Why the Irish flag?

It's not that complicated, it is part of their heritage.

[mondo joe]

122. Is it a heritage celebration?

Does it have anything to do with protesting US policy?

Hey, it's not my battle - they can send any counter prooductive message they like.

[proud2BlibKansan]

123. My Irish friend flies his Irish flag every day

I guess I should tell him he is sending a counter productive message.

[mondo joe]

126. The counter productivity would depend on what he's trying to acheive,

wouldn't it?

[proud2BlibKansan]

129. um I think he is just proud of his heritage

[mondo joe]

133. Then he's not trying to achieve anything with it, is he? But the

protesters are trying to achieve something, so they risk being counterproductive.

[proud2BlibKansan]

134. Whatever you say joe

:shrug:

[northzax]

190. but he's Irish, right?

is he trying to become an American citizen? did he wear the flag when he had his interview for his Visa?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

139. Bottom line: many posters have stated reasons for this. The "but WHY"

posters on the thread feel it is a counterproductive message, and I believe have a point.

The posters who have stated the reasons it is done (ethnic pride/identity, primarily) also have a point.

Points of view stated.

Agreement/understanding not forthcoming.

[NoodleyAppendage]

141. Because they are dumbasses and don't realize how damaging it is...

Waving around Mexican flags during an illegal immigration fight is POLITICALLY STUPID. PERIOD. Those on the legalization side of the argument are doing themselves no favors by waving around the Mexican flag.

If they had any political sense, they would be waving around American flags. This would reinforce the notion that the immigrants are willing to eventually become US citizens and look forward to what our country can provide.

IT IS A STUPID NATIONALISTIC GESTURE TO WAVE MEXICAN FLAGS.

J

[question everything]

194. That's what I think

but, apparently, there are many here who confuse national pride with a sensible march in opposition to a bill being debated in the American Congress.

[Lefty48197]

146. Pride

Unlike our flag, the Mexican flag still belongs to the Mexican people.

[Kerrytravelers]

214. LOL!

:rofl:

[QC]

147. Because Karl Rove requested them when he called Central Casting. n/t

[countryjake]

149. A message of utter disgust with a law that makes Felons of loved ones...

might seem to require some symbol of solidarity with those loved ones who will be affected by a racist bill that is already half way there to becoming law in this country!

The protests are in opposition to HR 4437, a move by the conservative right-wing that would criminalize 10 million people in this country, and those who love and care about them.

Why don't you understand the serious implications of HR 4437?

[RaleighNCDUer]

154. Thank you.

It's good to know that SOME people here get it.

[question everything]

197. Yes, an opposition to a law to be debated and enacted by

an American legislative body that will touch on lives of millions currently living within the U.S. border - whether legally or illegally.

A law debated by a sovereign country, and waving flags of foreign countries is not the way to influence the passage of a law.

Why don't you understand the bizarre meaning of waving a foreign flag in an attempt to influence an American law dealing with immigration into the U.S.?

And, yes, this will be true if the flags were Irish, or Italian or Japanese.

Because the question is: are we living in the sovereign country of the U.S.A, or are we subjects of Mexico? Whose laws are we debating here? The American ones or the Mexican? Can you imagine France debating a law granting citizenship to third generation of immigrants (this was one cause of the riots last fall) and the demonstrators waving not French flags, but those of Turkey, of Morocco, even of Germany?

And, then, of course, there are the bizarre comments about this land belonging to the people from Mexico and this is their way to show us who is the boss.

In this case I keep asking whether we should, then, move the border north of CA, AZ, NM and TX but then I am being called a racist. So that is.

[countryjake]

216. Expressing anger & showing unity & strength is the ONLY way to influence..

any government when repressive measures are made law!

This week's marches were ones of solidarity with immigrants, who will be unjustly punished by an extreme, right-wing measure that is about to be shoved thru Congress.

They were demonstrations against attacks on simple human rights in this democracy, protesting the imminent discrimination that will surely follow, (directed at ALL of Latino heritage or anyone who may look "foreign", whether they be citizens or not) should the Republicans succeed at passing this bill.

Those of Mexican heritage are in the crosshairs of this law, if HR 4437 makes it thru the Senate, since it is their homeland's border that will be walled off. The flags were flown as solidarity with their loved ones.

We are debating a racist law that would make felons of not only members of many of these protestors' families, but also any humanitarian citizen who chooses to show compassion to them.

It will mean "open season" on every person with Brown skin, Black skin, Yellow skin or anyone who may look a bit "exotic" and I cannot imagine that this farce of a democracy we live under will survive, if HR 4437 becomes law.

Our demonstrations up here included the flags of El Salvador and Guatemala, too, and if most immigrants are smart, they'd better be digging all those old flags of their homelands out of the mothballs, to stand up against that bill that is already halfway thru Congress.

I understand this law to be an attack on all immigrants, an attack on everyone who is not white, and it is to be treated as such. The more flags the merrier!

I am more concerned with the right-wing fascists taking over our government than any bunch of flag-waving citizens demonstrating solidarity with their loved ones!

[IselaB]

150. I agree with you to this point:

It undermines their message, and it alienates some who might otherwise be inclined to be sympathetic. If they were smarter, they would have nothing but an endless sea of US flags at these demonstrations.

I've always felt anti-war protestors should dress in shirt and tie and business attire and carry an American flag. If you're hoping your demonstration will change minds, then you should have your audience in mind, and avoid anything that helps you fit neatly into pre-conceived ideas.

[QC]

159. The very early gay rights demonstrators did that.

The men wore suits, the women dresses.

[IselaB]

165. If you're trying to change somebody's mind -

meaning somebody who doesn't think like you but thinks like "them," then it seems smart to me.

And think about the civil rights protestors in the 60s. I think a lot of Americans were impressed because they all seemed so clean-cut and mannerly in the face of ruthless hostility. I know it's not as satisfying as venting your anger, but I think it is often more rational from a strategic perspective.

[izzybeans]

158. Why the American Flag?

If you can answer that for yourself,then you will have an explanation.
Culture and identity are solidified via symbolic ritual; waving a flag = just that.
Affirming one's ancestry is only questionable amongst the stigmatized.

[mondo joe]

162. Nah, you ignore the context.

No one is griping about Mexican flags on Cinco de Mayo, or Irish flags on St Patrick's Day.

If you want to make a statement about becoming US citizens it would be behoove you to use THAT flag.

That said, it's their choice how they send a message. They may not like how it's picked up, though.

[izzybeans]

164. No I'm not.

The context of these folks lives is their culture. Those flags are waved in my neighborhood during World Cup Qualifying, local elections, various events I have no idea of, and that is all the context that matters. You can not explain why without explaining the context. They are the context. The rest are just people sitting around asking why, without a clue. All national flags are just identity markers; early generation immigrants always pack them and wave them as a sign of pride.

[Deja Q]

171. Seems it became a flamefest after all. A pity.

:(

Your question IS valid as we still live in countries where, when immigrating to them, we have to pass any number of tests in order to become an immigrant.

And, again, to leave one's "home" country for another rather speaks volumes about one's loyalty to the country they're fleeing. So, yeah, why wave the flag of the country they chose to leave in favor of another they decided was better... rather than stay and clean up their country's mess themselves?

Bingo. Loyalty. Or, rather, the lack of it? America has enough self-serving Libertarians as it is. We don't need anymore. We need America's infrastructure to become strong again, so we can properly trade with other countries and end the trade deficit problem. And "guest workers" has no impact on that either way as the jobs are almost entirely service-related, not manufacturing or engineering. (not that service is a bad thing, most of us are in service type jobs as we shifted to a service-based economy during the 1980s and 1990s... but I digress.)

They are as loyal to the US as the country they came from and would leave us in an attosecond if they felt they'd be treated better elsewhere. I thought the US would want to welcome people to help strengthen it. (so all this speaks volumes about the "guest worker" changes about to take place... yipes. Is America truly being dismantled, using programs that Liberals would love... because the same programs will be turned against them come election years? And despite it all, the fact the Repubs are just as divided should be through provoking too!)


I'm saddened by race has become an issue. Very feeble, to say the least. It isn't about race at all. All along, it's been about national loyalty and fighting exploitation, which is the next best thing to slavery and I'm shocked how many DUers, in support of this "guest worker" flim-flam fracus, have nary a care about exploitation - or otherwise must be in full support of it, which is a pretty disgusting thought too.

And, like I've been saying, if I emigrated to the United Kingdom, studied, passed, became a legal citizen... then went into a protest and waved the US flag all around... It makes the UK leadership bad. It makes me look pretty bad as waving the US flag shows I'd rather parade support for a country I left than the country I purportedly pledged loyalty too. (thinking of situations from the others' point of view is a useful technique and I've done so for posts I disagreed with. I'm not as hardlined on the issue, but I still need to keep reality and those cozy charming dreams separated.)

I'd rather see immigrants come here to contribute and be paid justly for their contributions; which in turn makes them happier to BE Americans, which means they will be loyal in times of need. That's the mindset most of us grew up with (even for our own natural-born citizens) or most of us fathomed is how any civilized country ought to be ran. Not spat on by a bunch of snake oil salesmen who'd get anyone to work for half a pittance if possible. and not possessed by Ayn Rand garbage that's tantamount to anarchy, which does nobody any good at all. Nature ahbors a vacuum, and its epicenter is in her mind. (well, half-garbage. It sure as hell is okay to be an individual and respect how other people live their lives; that's Constitutional to the core. But she goes well outside the realm of rationality, but that's another topic in its own right...)

Whatever. I've said my argument and have read enough posts on the topic.

As for the Native American, Columbus, and other aspects... the past is the past and how much more convulted must the topic become just for the sake of empty politics and nostalgia? The here and now is what is important. The past is the past. Gotta start somewhere. Or else not bother at all.

[Zookeeper]

218. Great post, HypnoToad. n/t

[Inland]

223. This is much like I said, but nobody ever responds.

So those posts are in my journal, along with all the other essays I'm proud of that sink like stones.

I usually try words like community, or identification, but it's all the same thing. Your opposite is, I think, correct: libertarianism, where someone's desire to bid on a job meets all the criteria of citizenship, where an individual's desire is good enough, and all relationships are market relationships. That's not a nation, it's a job fair.

I also said:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Inland/29
Not that there's anything wrong with that, but there's also an assumption, entirely warranted, that some aren't going to care about the USA. I have no idea why I would want an *unlimited* (and I mean that only in the sense that I think a billion people is without a limit practically) number of people physically present and interacting who don't care about the US and without feeling any personal stake in me, mine or my society.

See, I don't believe that working a job is the sine qua non of being a good member of society. I'm not a huge believer in homo economicus as our essential social being. I don't believe people obey laws, give to charity, attend town hall meetings, or vote because they are employed here. I think those things happen because they give a shit about a society they are part of.

So when those millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions of immigrants come here, will they be in favor of building schools that will serve future generations? Volunteering for the army? Building highways? Cooperating with the police? Picking up litter? Or will they be against all those things and waiting for the day they can take their money and anything else that they were able to gain in terms of education "home" as soon as they see an advantage? Is anyone even asking if they believe in things like law, equality, democracy? What's to say that there isn't going to be a barricade going up the next week?

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

172. I guess they have a right - but I'm not a fan of any kind of flag waving

I feel very uncomfortable when I watch the Olympics and hear people chanting "USA", "USA", "USA" at the top of their voices. Too many people in too many countries have died for flags. I haven't really waved an American flag with any gusto (except maybe in 2004 at a Wes Clark rally) since I was a little kid and held up a big flag when John F. Kennedy drove by my house. To me, the world has changed since then. And I would never go to a foreign country and wave an American flag in their face.

If Mexican people in the United States want to wave a Mexican flag, it doesn't really bother me, but I can't say I understand it. After all, the Mexican government has exploited the Mexican people even more than U.S. and CIA meddling in Latin America has exploited the people. Mexico is the richest country in Latin America but has the greatest poor. Mexico has the third richest man in the world according to the 2006 Forbes list of the world's richest men. Mexico has 10 of the 26 billionaires in Latin America. Billionaires! Mexico has the lowest tax rate in Latin America, at about 12 percent, compared to about 24 percent in the United States. Their tax rate is low, frankly, because super rich fucks are greedy and don't want to part with their money. The result is a very low tax revenue for Mexico and very poor social services and infrastructure for the people who really are in need. And Mexico doesn't even have affirmative action laws to help women become more competitive in the workplace. I've read somewhere that about $20 billion a year is spent by Mexico's federal government in paying for bribes. And look at the people who are running Mexico like Mr. Fox - certainly not a man of the poor classes, no different than here. I guess Mexicans can be proud of their heritage and it doesn't bother me. But if that flag stands for the extremely corrupt, abusive, and feudal system that reigns in Mexico and keeps the poor people mired in poverty and the rich people living in vast estates guarded by private armies, then I really don't understand pride in the Mexican flag. I feel bad for them flying that flag, like I have felt bad for young American people going into illegal wars with flying flags believing that their country is tops. Although, as I said, they're free to fly their flag in America and it doesn't bother me, I have to say I don't understand it.

[RagingInMiami]

177. They're not waving the flag in honor of their government

They don't give a shit about their government. They know their government is corrupt.

They're waving the flag because it represents their culture, their family, their heritage, their language, their music, their cuisine, their climate.

The mountain range they grew up seeing in the horizon. The corner pub they drank at when they had a few extra centavos. The dirt street they played soccer on when they were kids.

To them, the Mexican flag represents home.

And even though they might be living here now, trying to assimilate, hoping to create a better life for themselves and their family, there will always be one home. And that will always be Mexico.

And I don't why that is so hard to understand. Just cause you live in a new country doesn't mean you have to forget the country you left behind. It doesn't mean you're disrespecting the new country. It just means you will always carry a piece of the old country in your heart until the day you die.

[monarch]

183. Finally!!

Has the neocon phony patriotism finally corrupted DUers? Of course, they are celebrating their heritage! They are also confronting the US (and some liberals) with prejudice against Mexicans.

(By the way, my ancestors were Irish and I proudly wave the Irish flag on St. Patrick's Day. I guess that those who want to celebrate their Mexican heritage should wait for their own damn day.)

ON edit: apologies to those who posted the same sentiment. I've had trouble catching up on everything today and I jumped in at the end without reading everything. I promise never to do that again. (You can see from my count that I hardly ever post even though I've been a member since the first 2 or 3 months and I'm on every day)

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

225. I hope you're not directing that to my post under which you have posted

If you're calling me someone corrupted by "neocon phony patriotism" then I hope that the problem was that you didn't bother reading my post, as any reading of my post would not suggest anything of the kind. Since you have responded in agreement to someone who posted under my post, I would suggest that you read my post, unless you think that throwing words around like "neocon phony patriot" is something to be done at random here on DU. It's about as ugly as you can get, my friend. Nothing in my post held the slightest prejudice against Mexicans. In fact, I speak Spanish fluently, have studied Latin American literature, and even have a Bachelor's Degree in it from the University of California. Is that the sign of someone prejudiced against their culture? I happen to be an immigration lawyer who has worked extensively with immigrants in obtaining their right to stay in this country. Is that someone "corrupted by neocon phony patriotism"? I have volunteered extensively in pro bono programs to represent indigent people before immigration judges in downtown Los Angeles, many of whom are Hispanic. Is that someone "corrupted by neocon phony patriotism"?

My post in fact acknowledged their right to wave whatever flag they want. My problem is that I don't understand flag waving in general. I certainly would not wave an American flag if I went to live in Mexico. I happen to have dual citizenship and I wouldn't wave either country's flag in the other. You might wave your Irish flag on St. Patrick's Day and Mexican nationals might wave their flag on Cinco De Mayo. But we're not talking about a holiday. I only expressed my personal displeasure with some of the actions of the U.S. government and why I find it hard to wave an American flag with gusto or why I would not be able to shout "USA", "USA", "USA" at the Olympics. Trying to place myself in the shoes of Mexicans, I think I would find it hard to wave the Mexican flag in the United States, a country where they have come to escape the disfunction of their own country, considering what the Mexican government for which that flag stands has done to its own people. I'm in favor of no flags and in fact bringing down borders between people, not dividing people with flags or slogans. I'm in favor of open borders, as long as they are open both ways. Is that the sign of someone "corrupted by neocon phony patriotism"?

[fishnfla]

179. Maybe ANSWER organized these protests too

because it was a big mistake to cloud the issue

[question everything]

182. Nice touch

yes, ANSWER has been using the goodwill and many to promote its own narrow agenda - and hurting all in the process.

[TahitiNut]

191. "National pride" and "national identity."

So sayeth Hispanic spokespersons on NPR. Go figure. :eyes:
I guess "love it or leave it" translates into "love it AND leave it" in Spanish? :silly:

[radio4progressives]

193. Ever hear of ETHNIC PRIDE????????????????????????

how old are you?

[Fountain79]

195. I concur with the original poster...

If you are trying to convince others that you belong in this country and that you want to become a part of this country....waving the flag of your previous homeland doesn't make much sense.

[laheina]

222. Prolly not.

The OP is from Minnesota.

[question everything]

233. LOL

Moved to MN several years ago, after living in California. Believe me, I know what ethnic pride is and it does not belong while protesting an American law about immigration. Or, put it another way - sure waving your ethnic flags, but not be surprised if it comes back and bite you in the form of more voters, previously uninterested in the topic, calling their reps to demand capping such an exhibition of ethnic pride.

[Swamp Rat]

208. What message is Karl Rove trying to send?

[Zorra]

210. Mexicans are colonizing the US and there is no way to stop them.

Learn Spanish.

[Zookeeper]

220. No thanks. n/t

[laheina]

221. Three languages: trilingual, Two languages: bilingual, one language

American :)

[Bridget Burke]

224. The people bitching about the Mexican Flag....

Don't have a bit of sympathy for the Mexican immigrants (legal or illegal) or for Mexican-Americans (who will be "suspected" even if their ancestors crossed that River a century ago). Their concern about the "mixed message" being sent is a lie.

They're just using the latest Talking Point. Well, it's not really the Latest--it's as worn out as the Stars & Stripes flying from the antenna of an SUV with a Bush/Cheney bumper sticker. Only the committed (or soon to be committed) keep harping on it.

We aren't buying. Yes, my ancestors (mostly) came in legally. All you had to do in those days was show up at Ellis Island without noticeable disease. Make it that simple again & let's see what happens.

Viva Mexico! Viva Texas!

[foreverdem]

229. Uh, easy for who?

Not for the immigrants it wasn't. I don't consider spending days upon days in the steerage compartment of a ship, surrounded by stench, disease and death, packed in like a sardine, to come to America to be "easy".

Much is said about what illegal immigrants, Mexicans in particular, endure to cross the border, and I can sympathize with that. But by the same token, most of our ancestors didn't arrive on luxury cruise ships, so I wouldn't consider what they endured to get here to be 'easy'.

[Bridget Burke]

230. Getting here is one thing.....

Even though not all of my ancestors came here in Floating Coffins.

But getting INTO the USA was a piece of cake once we got to Ellis Island. (Being white helped, too.)

[AlphaCentauri]

227. some wave the Mexican flag in solidarity with the poor

as many countries wave the American flag after the 9-11

[question everything]

234. Waving the American flag after 9/11 was a solidarity

with the U.S.

But waving a Mexican flag outside of Mexico is a solidarity with whom? The poor in Mexico?

Or do you think that the only poor in this country are Mexicans, or even only Hispanics?

There are many poor white people and many poor Black people, and Native Americans. Since when do Mexicans have a monopoly on poverty?

And in contrast to Mexicans (and Guatemalans, and Filipinos) who can wave the flag of their country of origin, whose flag should African-Americans wave when they protest poverty and discrimination?

And I think that this is the saddest consequence: we have been concentrating so much on the plight of Mexicans, that we've neglected the African Americans to whom our priority should be first, since their ancestors did not come here of their free will.