Illegal Immigration....It seems so simple

[xultar]

1. Seal the borders with unmanned vehicles with cameras, motion detectors with cameras and what ever else is technology appropriate.
2. Offer a guest worker program to those that want to go home
3. Offer guest worker with path citizenship to those that want to stay and they have to wait until the current backlog is cleared before they an become citizens
4. Open a guest workers office in Haiti, Peru, Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala, and any other country where necessary and process applications and let people in for periods of time depending on the work and they can reapply after their current assignment expires.
5. HEAVILY FINE ANY EMPLOYER who hires illegals after the holes in the borders are sealed and the guest worker program is underway

So, am I crazy?

[Cleita]

1. Guest worker programs have not worked in Europe and are

now creating problems there.

[xultar]

5. What are the problems. Technically our H1-B is a guest worker

program right?

[Cleita]

10. The workers, usually from Turkey and other muslim countries,

or maybe I should say their children are rebelling against their second class status. If a guest worker program here doesn't address that, we will have more not less problems down the line.

This what happened with the amnesties offered in the past. They were an immediate solution, but it never stopped the flow because the real problem is down in Mexico and up here with our laws that give the employer a pass.

See my post here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x815891

[xultar]

12. What do you mean Children are rebelling? Children rebel that is what

they do.

[Cleita]

13. Well these children are rioting and being destructive.n/t

[Kare]

15. the main problem...

Hb-1 visas are supposed to be for eployers who cannot find
an american worker to do the job...
They are for educated people who do technical work...
Employers prefer hb-1 visa workers because they will work for less

When you have americans who cannot find jobs then you
shouldn't be encouraging more people to come into
this country to fight for what little jobs are left.

Just like other immigration laws this one is not
enforced, if it was enforced and the companies payed
the comparable rate that they should
then there wouldn't be a preference for the visa holders
But since it is not enforced and they can pay less
they want to hire them over american workers..

[countryjake]

22. Here's one major problem with those visas...

In the Orchards, questions about Immigration Reform
by Tony Barboza September 19, 2005 from High Country News
http://www.hcn.org/servlets/hcn.Article?article_id=15783

Washington state offers a cautionary tale for would-be reformers in Washington, D.C.



Kristada Patthum, here from Thailand under a federal guest-worker program, earns a state-mandated minimum wage of $9.03 per hour to pick apples. AP Wide World


Check the article at the above link for an explanation of the H-2A visas.
As soon as migrants (with seniority and years coming to an area) try for better conditions and wages, the corrupt agricultural employer will declare "shortage", since the very nature of migrant farm work makes it seem that loophole is valid (the migrants move with the growing seasons of our agriculture). Farmworkers who've settled in an agricultural area with decades in one particular crop are virtually ignored, as farms find it more profitable to hire thru "labor contractors". With these middleman companies, now importing South Asian workers, they get the guarantee that those employed under these visas will go back to their countries of origin and will not "rock the boat", since pay is withheld till end of seasons & made out to be paid only in banks of those foreign countries...thus pitting migrant farmworkers against those guest workers, and thwarting any Union organizing attempts made by the UFW, not to mention forcing long-time Farmworkers to seek other avenues of employment.

Any guest worker program must give those entering our country to work a voice in dealing with their employers and the right to improve wages and conditions both on the job and in any of the housing provided. The right to organize should be a number one requirement of every "work visa" our government offers.

[Redstone]

2. Seal the borders? Yeah, sure. That worked real well in Europe during

the Cold War, didn't it?

Redstone

[xultar]

3. So you're saying don't even try?

[Redstone]

9. Fuck, yes, that's what I'm saying. Why bother when it won't work?

Until Americans stop eating fresh vegetables in the winter, there WILL be illegal aliens in this country. I've said this here before, but apparently even DUers have a hard time admitting responsibility, because lots of people get REAL defensive when I point it out.

Redstone

[GrumpyGreg]

8. Not the same thing-----keeping people walled in is not the

same as keeping them out.

They wouldn't even be kept out,just would have to go through a legal process so it can't compare to the Cold War.

[radwriter0555]

4. ROFLMAO! You think bush's gulf coast oil co donors are going to be

FINED for hiring their cheap labor?

Come on, the largest employers of illegal workers are REPUBLICANS.

[xultar]

6. I know that but is my plan stoopid? I'm saying it seems simple if

people didn't have their heads up their asses.

[Cleita]

11. You're trying. It's just a rather complicated issue on all sides. n/t

[mdmc]

7. i don't have any better ideas xultar

:patriot: I don't think that you are crazy. :shrug:

[savemefromdumbya]

14. If people will be given work permits then they won't need to be illegal

no need for costly border cameras and walls. If people know that they can come in to work legally by getting a permit then they wouldn't need to try to beat the system. Once in, they can make a decision on whther to stay and get green card/cit etc. They could get emergency health treatment but would have to pay for their own health insurance if their employer didn't fork out. They should pay taxes.

[Cleita]

16. They do pay taxes.

That's the one thing the law will go after the employer for is not collecting taxes and filing them on undocumented immigrants because it really costs them in fines if they don't.

Also they pay sales taxes on what they buy and property taxes for rents.

[xultar]

17. Nope you still need to use the technology so terraists don 't come in.

[savemefromdumbya]

19. like finding a needle in a haystack!

the borders and coasts are long. terrorists will come in no matter what.

[xultar]

20. This isn't the stone age. It can be done. I'm not going to argue

with you about this.

[bowens43]

23. Nonsense.. Terrorists are not an issue.

To try to seal the borders against terrorists thing is silly. They certainly won't be coming through check points if they do attempt to come in. We have several thousand miles of border and ocean front. It is not possible to secure it against terrorists. We are no more or less likely to be hit by terrorism now then we were at any other time in our history.

[xultar]

27. Well then fuck it. Let's not even have border security.

[alfredo]

18. give Texas back to Mexico on the condition that Mexico

enforces their borders, have a minimum wage that mirrors The US minimum wage, and that they enforce health, environmental, safety, and fair labor standards.

[EFerrari]

21. Hey! Don't mess with Mexico. lol n/t

[alfredo]

31. Too late.

[bpilgrim]

24. make em all legal, so they don't undermine the rest of us

and so they will also stop being exploited as bad as they are today.

go after the employeers... which would, more effectively, shut down most of the thing vs the current ideas being debated, if anyone on the hill was actually, 'serious' about getting a tighter reign on illegal immigration.

but business depends on illegal labor and is why they wanna make'm continue to work a decade or two before even thinking about adding them to the voter or especially the labor roles of this country (though deibold and their ilk are working diligently oon that problem)

however, i am not in favor of turning the borders into some, high-tech, militerized DMZ, though... nt only because it won't & cost tins of cash but also because i don't wanna turn america into a police state and this will only help to serve that purpose.

peace

[xultar]

25. Some don't want to become citizens some just want to work.

I mean please, If I was an illegal immigrant I wouldn't want to be here when the terraist strike.

All the immigrants would probaly want to go back home. Shit I'd even go with them.

[bpilgrim]

28. just like some americans don't wanna do their jobs, eh...

doesn't matter though cause i bet the vast majority want better legal rights & working conditions, at least us americans do.

peace

[gollygee]

30. They don't have to be citizens to work here

we don't need a "guest worker" program. They can be made resident aliens, the same as my husband and millions of other people in this country, or they can choose to go home.

This "guest worker" idea is so that corporations won't have to follow current labor laws. This will desperately hurt American workers, and cause immigrants to be *legally* mistreated by employers.

[thethinker]

26. This is a very complicated problem

I heard on TV last night that 1 million illegals are coming in a year plus 1 million more that are coming in legally. Before Reagan, about 30,000 came across the border a year. We now have 12 million illegals here.

When they come across the border, no one tries to stop them. Immigration officials do not arrest illegals where I live. They are all over the place. They stand on the streets in certain parts of town. People that want to hire them pull up and load up their trucks. It is wide open.

Up north where there are not so many illegals, certain jobs pay a really good wage. For instance, drywall work, framing of houses, painting, etc. Here all of the new home construction is built by illegals. The builder hires one guy ("a drywall company"), he goes and fills up his truck with illegals. He does not pay even minimum wage. The builder does not pay the guy they hire much either. The builder makes out like a bandit.

Same thing with restaurants. Most of the dish washers, kitchen help, etc. is illegals. They are not making minimum wage.

It is the same with office building cleaning crews, etc. They hire one person who hires a bunch of illegals. A Walmart was recently sited for having a cleaning crew of illegals.

So, an American, who up north could get a job as a dish washer and at least make minimum wage, can't down here. The only jobs left are working as a store clerk or McDoanlds if you are an American and need a minimum wage job. They only reason store clerks aren't illegal immigrants is because they don't speak English. Other low paying jobs like telemarketing is all being outsourced to India.

The idea that they are taking jobs Americans won't do is ridiculous. They are taking jobs Americans used to do when that job paid minimum wage or better.

Someone earlier mentioned that Americans like fruit in the winter. Our fruit in the winter is all grown in South America. The oranges in Florida and grapes in California got picked before we had so many illegal immigrants.

This wide open immigration that the Bush is pushing only benefits corporations. It does not benefit middle income Americans. It does not benefit the people that are immigrating here. They are working at less than minimum wage and living in very, very poor conditions. Sometimes 20 to a house. I know some of them break out of the rut, learn English and make it to middle class. But it is hard for them and they are really exploited.

This country can not afford to take care of it own homeless (it could, but it doesn't). It can not afford health care for it's own citizens. (I don't believe this, but according to our government, we can't afford these things). They are telling us social security is broke (which of course, it isn't).

I have a very soft heart. I can never pass a homeless person on the street. But, I also know that this immigration issue is designed to undermine the income of the middle class American.

[SeaBob]

29. what wever

What ever happened to

GOD BLESS AMERICA
by Charlene Gill

Send me your tired, your poor and your hungry.......
I opened my arms to you all. I sheltered you so that you could begin a life free of
persecution. I gave you freedom and hope.
I asked nothing of you.

From my womb came your children. We all worship the same God! And this is God's country. The blood you spilled was that of his children. All our children,including yours
Did you think your murderous actions could harm what I stand for? Did you really think the destruction of symbolisms would
destroy my spirit?

Well, hear this! What I stand for goes much deeper than your simple, little mind is capable of comprehending. I am the home of the free and the brave. You cannot possibly understand what that really means. All you succeeded in doing was putting the lives of innocent people in harms way and their
blood will be on your hands.

AMERICANS will be there to pick up the pieces for those innocents you harm and I will allow them the opportunity for freedom the same as I always have. I will be here long after you are gone. I will endure and no one will ever destroy what I stand for!

When this is over, I will still say, "Send me your tired, your poor and your hungry!"

And they will still come...........

AMERICA