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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 07:24 PM
Original message
What I find totally depressing about recent polls...
...however positive the results may seem to us, is that there apparently exists a solid, unshakable 33%-40% bloc of support for a president with authoritarian leanings and a seemingly complete disregard for the Constitution and Bill of Rights...

...no matter how badly he does.

Think on that awhile. In a way, I could better stomach genuinely high approval ratings (60%+) for Bush if things were going well (as they did for Reagan during the mid-'80s boom"). That way, I'd figure that it was merely the results of Bush's leadership they were approving of, not the philosophy behind it.

But, as it is, it seems to me that a third of the country or more just likes the idea of a right-wing dictatorship -- fascism without even making the trains run on time.

And I hate to think what that bodes for the future. :scared:

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Freedom_from_Chains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. It is rather discouraging. EOM
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peace frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. His numbers continue to slide downward
and I take exception to your phrase "there apparently exists a solid, unshakable 33%-40% bloc of support". His support is neither solid nor unshakable and will continue its slow but inexorable decline.
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. Maybe yes, maybe no...
...but I have to wonder what more it would take for current Bush supporters to turn. If they haven't concluded, in the face of all the current evidence, that Bush is a miserable failure, would he need to be caught tunneling into the local bank, or shoot someone in public (hey, it worked for Cheney!), or (gasp) be revealed to have received blow-jobs from a young intern?

My point is that those who currently back Bush do so in spite of the results of his presidency. Which tells me that they are people who embrace his ideology of imposing a right-wing agenda (and the Constitution be damned), not his effectiveness. In other words, a bloc who prefer right-wing philosophy to democracy. And that's a chilling thought indeed, because, long after Bush is gone, they'll still be voting.

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Crazy Guggenheim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. You hit it on the head!
"My point is that those who currently back Bush do so in spite of the results of his presidency. Which tells me that they are people who embrace his ideology of imposing a right-wing agenda (and the Constitution be damned), not his effectiveness. In other words, a bloc who prefer right-wing philosophy to democracy. And that's a chilling thought indeed, because, long after Bush is gone, they'll still be voting."
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peace frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. His support will bottom out at no higher than 20%
which corresponds to the percentage of hardcore RW religious fanatics who have supported him all along. No chance of change there, however their sway on American politics in general is slipping along with Bush's falling popularity. He has lost the great majority of Independents, has completely lost Dems and now many in his own party are finished with him. I can't be overly concerned with the 20% of fundies who still adore the nincompoop when they are all he has.
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PetraPooh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
3. I wonder how the 33% compares to those with enough money
to be profitting from all of the "mistakes" that have been made
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. i don;t think so..
i have very very wealthy repug friends who now hate *..they hate him maybe not near as much as me but they hate his policies..they hate the debt he has put us inot and they hate this war..they speak horribly of him..

but on the other hand i have a very dear friend who is poor but mormon..we can no longer talk..our realationship is a long one and now all but over..and all she does is praise * and god...and yes she is very poor and her husband has been out of work now for several years..she had to get a dead end job just for their survival...

so don't just assume the rich support this lying pig in our white house..

oh and by the way , my hubby and i are very well off and gave a ton of money to kerry and all dems in my state and other states..we hate * with a passion..

fly
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
34. The 33% are the Christofascisti; they've been told Bush is God, err...
The 33% are the Christofascisti; they've been told Bush is God, err,
good and they always believe what they've been told to believe.

They would gladyly see most of us here exterminated so America
could be more godly.

Tesha
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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. exterminated??..well they can go fuck themselves then...
and learn that this is a country....not a church....that promotes extermination....
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Blackthorn Donating Member (675 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
5. I don't believe for a second that these polls accurately reflect anything.
...more than the opinions of the people who write them. Simply, if they started reporting 'legit' numbers, that would no doubt be <30%, then you make it harder to stop the rot so to speak. People will drop support for him faster if it will start reflecting bad on THEM not him. By keeping all reported polls at a static 35-40% level, they create the impression of a president under fire, rather than an unpopular ratbag. Polls = more spin.
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kiraboo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
6. The only people I know who still support him are truly
uninformed or stupid, or religiously insane.
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FatDave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #6
30. Or unable to admit their mistakes
even to themselves. Sound familiar?
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kiraboo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. I like to think I recognize that behavior, even in myself! n/t
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INdemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
7. Just where were you living in the 80's
The trickle down economy certainly didn't seem like a boom to me......
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Although there was a typo in my post...
..."boom" was supposed to be in quotes.

If you recall, from about '83-'87, the economy seemed to have recovered from late-'70s inflation and the '81-'82 recession, and to be headed upward. Granted:

a) it was a "recovery" fueled by a massive increase in debt (sound familiar?), and

b) it was driven by grossly inequitable conservative policies, and thus was far more beneficial to those at the top of the economic ladder than the rest of us.

Still, to all appearances, it was a considerable improvement over what came before. And, even the "average guy" no longer had to contend with double-digit inflation or unemployment, so they could rationalize that "the Reagan Revolution worked." :puke: The point is that Bush supporters don't even have that means to rationalize their support, but they back him anyway.

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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
36. they are like a religious cult..only more dangerous..and they are
small in numbers...so why we give them any creedance is beyond me!
we should be wiping the floors with them..instead we pander to this sick bunch..

fly
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Jade Fox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
8. It is my belief.....
that if you took any country/society/culture you would find about that percentage of people who are drawn to authoritarian leaders, and are nascent fascists. It seems to be a certain personality type, thankfully in the minority. What we have seen it that 30-40 percent become empowered in this country, and it is indeed a scary experience. Having enjoyed a heyday, the fascist-leaning American minority will likely be harder to control in the future, and that is pretty depressing.
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Crazy Guggenheim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
10. I'd worry more about the 60 - 67% who don't support him and how to
get them to vote Demo in 2006. But first we must motivate the base.

:popcorn: :popcorn:
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LiberalPartisan Donating Member (844 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
11. Consider those people as lost
They need the security of someone to direct their lives and provide for them. And of course they are irretrievably stupid.
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
14. They don't support him. They are complicit.
They can't accept that they are responsible for Bush's unblemished record of failure. When they say they still back him, they mean they can't admit they were wrong.
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APPLE314 Donating Member (262 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
16. It's the Apocalypse factor.
It truly is religious based. Forget common sense. Forget all your normal reasons otherwise.
They believe we are in our last days, deficits are meaningless, they have won the abortion argument, morality has been politicized and everything is under control. You have to love them for it though. They are sticking up for what they believe just as well as you are.
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davhill Donating Member (854 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 07:25 AM
Response to Original message
17. They Support him because he is President
Many people tend to trust leaders despite anything they do simply because they are "our leaders". The polls supported Clinton during the height of the impeachment hate fest, because he was the president.
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Ufomammut Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
18. Whatever people's personal reasons and motives for...
Supporting the Bushco, I have a hard time believing that there is genuinely 30-plus percent of our populace that actually supports them.

Because chauvinism during a time of war - even a staged, phony war that serves as a cover for empire building and a war against freedom - there will always be simpletons who fall back on blindly, unquestioningly supporting the "home team," despite every situational inducement that indicates grave hypocrisy.

I read the pimping of the 30% polls as a desperate measure to help the Estab (hopefull) convince more of us that things aren't as grim as they are.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 07:31 AM
Response to Original message
19. Mike Malloy..
.... coined a term for this years ago. He calls them the "30% idiot contingent". They are mostly deluded "christians". Bush could sprount horns, a tail and wave a trident and they would still support him.

The only good thing is that they are not a majority, and they never will be.
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Ufomammut Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Beyond being a non majority, a very slim minority.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #19
37. i truely believe * could.........
screw a pink elephant on the front lawn of the white house with a million cameras catching the action..and they would find some damn excuse for him..

they are sick people and why we pay one damn bit of attention to those sicko's is beyond me..they are not even a real minority.

fly
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 07:33 AM
Response to Original message
20. I agree to some extent.
I think he is just becoming unpopular in the way many presidents become less popular in their second term. I think the war is becoming less popular, because I think the people that were in love with the idea thought it would be over quickly and don't know the PNAC from Buggs Bunny. I still think at least 50% of the population have no idea about the abuse of power that has been going on. Sorry, I know this post is pessimistic, but until I see the truth more on TV and the front pages of our papers, I believe we remain in serious trouble.
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Ufomammut Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. Of course we do
Given our foreign and domestic policies, these are perilous times. And I agree that unfortunately many people still have no clue as to what exactly has happened/is happening. However, people viscerally pick up on it even if they convince themselves that they're "too busy" to bother informing themselves.

Conversely, the fact that this admin likely doesn't even have 30%, yet "we the people" haven't risen up and kicked these guys' asses is a far more troubling reality.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 07:39 AM
Response to Original message
22. Interesting phenomena isn't it? Where is their ideology inculcated?
Fascist families? Some institution for morons? Nazi school? Just where the fuck does it come from is the burning question?
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Ufomammut Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #22
31. Human, all too human
Plotters, planners and connivers of a particular mindset eventually formed various alliances and "groups."
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. leaving us well screwed w/o a kiss!
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
24. I put a lot of the blame on the RW "Noise Machine".
The media are (is?) a very powerful tool and we were way too late in realizing this.

There is constant reinforcement of talking points and misconceptions through (especially) AM radio as these 30% drive to work or to shop.

Religious fundy radio is also rife everywhere. (One can only wonder how may new religious radio stations have been purchased by organizations that now have lots of extra money through "faith-based" government grants.)

This is, of course, not the only factor. But I think it is an influential, one.

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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
25. Please google Stanley Milgram's Obedience/Authority Experiment
and know them Pubs have used this to some degree for a very long time...

The "Authority" is taught to the Peeps in such a way....they do not think of it as a YOKE but that of Goodness....even if pain is involved.



Another way to look at it: A Lot of Us have become adjusted to continually hitting ourselves on the head with a hammer because it feels so good when we stop.... that we continue.
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Ufomammut Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Is that the infamous "shocking" session?
Where people would continually give - what they were told to be - increasingly powerful, harmful electric shocks to other people simply because "authority" was governing their choices? Very creepy.

"We are actively discouraged from thinking constructively and questioningly, and once an individual has accepted the numb acquiescence so encouraged, an insidiously vicious circle has successfully been promoted. Another rather convenient result of such a situation is that people who don't think constructively and questioningly don't even realize it." ~ Michael Timothy, "The Anti-Intellectual Ethic"
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Yes it is....rather disturbing but I feel it may be a partial answer to
your question of WHY.
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Dawgs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
26. I think the numbers reflect something completely different.
Edited on Mon Mar-27-06 08:38 AM by Dawgs
I actually think the mid-thirties number is accurate, and here's why.

It comes down to support of the Republican party. Even if you know your leader is doing a terrible job you still might say you support him to keep the party from being taken down. If the media, and everyone else, is telling you that Bush's low approval numbers are hurting the Republican party wouldn't you consider saying you approve just to help other's in your party. I'm not saying I would do this, but many others might.

I would like to see a poll that asked the strength of approval. I know there is one that asks if you strongly approve, somewhat approve, strongly disagree, or somewhat disagree.

I think his strongly approve numbers are probably way down in the teens. Actually, here's a link from rawstory--> http://rawstory.com/news/2006/Gallup_Bush_disapproval_r... . It shows his strongly approve numbers at 20. I think the somewhat approves are those that can't stand Bush, but vote somewhat approve to help the party.

Am I way off here?
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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
28. once people get hooked on a media outlet thats that
a large and sleazey power has overtaken America and it will take personal pain for these losers to realize they are just pawns
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Ufomammut Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. Yes, and terrifying to realize just how many...
People mentally digest such garbage while perceiving it as "reality."

That's the key aspect to why the explanations of how propaganda and brainwashing end up sounding so bizarre and "nutty" to people: there's a natural tendency to "go with the flow," and most people, since childhood, haven't been roundly encouraged to really think and feel for themselves ..hence, my family and friends and co-workers all watch the same TV "news" as I do, occasionally read the same major periodicals, etc, so how could so many of us HAVE IT ALL WRONG? ..that elusive sense of cultural familiarity makes them ask?

Answer: it's much easier than you'd believe, or would like to believe.
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