Why does Barry Bonds get skewered and Lance Armstrong walks?

[garybeck]

The media never covered it but there is pretty hard evidence that Lance Armstrong was using illegal steroids. People who work with him have testified to this fact. One time, one of his associates drove 50 miles away from his hotel room to dispose of a bag of needles, in a remote garbage can where no one would notice. But the most damning evidence is a couple months ago, a testing lab in France used a new, more accurate test on a sample of his blood that was preserved from one of the first races he won (I think it was the second victory in France) and it came up positive. The media didn't even report it.

[Nimrod2005]

1. It is a white and black thing...

[apnu]

5. bullshit

Ever been to a baseball game where the Yankees are fielding Giambi?!?! He got busted for 'roids too. And he's still playing.

It might be a black/white thing if Bonds is bounced forever from Baseball and Giambi isn't.

[Teaser]

6. Mark McGuire has also been justly lambasted

nt

[ContraBass Black]

53. I thought he was still popular.

[Teaser]

65. He's a broken down fraud.

Listen to sports radio. He is mocked, mocked, mocked.

At least Barry Bonds is villefied. It's better than being derided.

[Sequoia]

70. Really? Where?

I had no idea.

[rinsd]

85. Well most of this week by Kornheiser and Wilbon on PTI

MCGuire actually has it easy right now because he is retired.

When he comes up for the vote in the HOF you will see many articles ripping him because he will be the first high profile suspected roid user to get voted on for the HOF.

[Sequoia]

113. GUNK!

Why can't baseball just be fun anymore?!

[rinsd]

118. Yeah it reminds me of the 80's with the coke scandals...

...sad in a way.

[Teaser]

105. I'm in Philly

and our sports radio has not been kind to him. Still, this is Philly sports radio, and it's not kind to many people...

[EFerrari]

89. I didn't know that. That's so sad. n/t

[rinsd]

84. With who?

He gets ripped as a coward for his Congressional testimony.

The HOF vote coming this year will bring alot of this stuff out because he will be the first HOF test case for the so called roid era.

[apnu]

2. Because Lancie rides with the Chimp -- that's why.

Nothing to see here, just good old cronism. Move along, move along.

:sarcasm:

[Teaser]

3. Baseball vs. Cycling.

one is America's pasttime, one isn't even on America's radar.

[Benhurst]

4. Because we're NUMBER ONE.

This is BushAmerica. You want truth? :rofl:

[Township75]

7. Racism, also how famous is Bond's wife?

Cheryl may not be LA's wife, but when this scandal hit, she was close to being it...they may have been engaged at that point.
Finally, that test was done on a sample that was in storage for several years.

[WoodrowFan]

8. different sport?

more people care about baseball and its records than a French bicycle race...

[mtowngman]

9. Bonds has never been a darling of the media-

quite the contrary, while Armstrong married Cheryl Crowe-hottest rocker going.

[Jane Austin]

15. No he didn't. n/t

[mtowngman]

18. my bad. I guess they were just an item.

[shain from kane]

10. The guy's riding a bike, for God's sake.

Who cares?
Someone made a sport where there really wasn't a sport.
The only question that I would be concerned about is whether it is widely thought that his half-eunuchdom is due to steriod use?
Otherwise, why is he a celebrity?

[garybeck]

12. maybe you don't care but the media loves him

he's on the CNN home page now, because he's comforting Dana Reeve's son.

every time I see him put up on a pedestal it makes me sick. he's no better than Bonds.

[Ron Green]

24. Abner Doubleday made a sport where there wasn't one, too.

You may not care, but millions of people in other parts of the world are very hip to cycling and what racing a bike is all about.

[shain from kane]

25. Well, it is an activity. But a sport? n/t

[Ron Green]

27. Yep, it is. It's got teams, individual stars, different events, national

championships, training regimens, halls of fame, strategies and tactics. Why wouldn't it be a sport as much as baseball? What are the criteria to call something a sport?

Does it have to have a ball, is that it?

[shain from kane]

42. I guess if it is reported on the sports page of the newspaper,

then it's considered a sport. As a spectator, how much of the race can you actually see?
A minor sport, maybe, an insignificant activity, sure, a method of transportation, well yes, but still a sport!!!!
That is, if you are willing to let someone else decide what fits and what doesn't fit the definition.
By the way, I've outgrown baseball, too.
You can classify Saturday Night Live as comedy, but how often do you laugh?

[Oeditpus Rex]

93. Abner Doubleday didn't invent baseball

Alexander Cartwright is credited with standardizing the rules, including the diamond dimensions, in 1842. When Doubleday was supposedly laying out the diamond in 1839 by drawing in the dirt, he was actually attending West Point.

But the first documented mention of the term "baseball" was in 1744, in a British children's book called "A Pretty Little Pocket-Book." It was also mentioned in Jane Austen's "Northanger Abbey" in 1798.

Just clearing up a common misconception.

[Blue Belle]

55. Which "Sport" are you talking about?

Cycling or Baseball? If you don't think cycling is a sport, than you haven't been paying attention to the rest of the world. Unlike baseball, Cycling has some of the most elite aerobically fit athletes in the world... and if you don't think it's hard, try riding a bike up a steep grade or fly down the other side in a pack who's trying their damdest to knock you off your bike the whole time.

[Hobo]

11. Give me a link to your "hard evidence" please

I love how that one story in a french newspaper is taken as gospel. Of course the samples were destroyed in the testing. How convienent.

Hobo

:beer:

[DS1]

19. Seconded

[stop the bleeding]

30. time line is at psot # 29 n/t

[alarimer]

67. Armstrong has been tested way more than just about anyone

and he PASSED EVERY FUCKING TEST! As for Bonds, baseball never tested for what he took or there wasn't a test available. And baseball has not done a very good job with steroids either, which is how Bonds and Giambi got away with it. Why they are still allowed to play is beyond me. They should be banned for life. No hall of Fame for them.

[mattclearing]

99. Agreed.

I don't really care, but my understanding is that this is far from established fact.

[SmokingJacket]

13. Might also be the cancer thing...

Lance Armstrong is such a feel-good story, no one wants to piss on his victory.

[WoodrowFan]

21. that's a good point

I forgot about that.

[librechik]

34. he claims the substance is part of his treatment

no one can reasonably challenge him on that without looking like a monster--

=good excuse

[acmejack]

14. Really, where did you see that?

I am uninformed as to the blood test incident. Not to say I doubt it by any means, there have been too many rumors, too many accusations.

[Warren Stupidity]

16. He has been tested repeatedly and been clean every time.

"People who work with him have testified to this fact." Uh - testified as in a legal process where perjured testimony carries legal consequences? Or testified as in told somebody?

Ah it seems you are referring to this case: http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/7774.0.html

Hmmm... seems like there is a lot of nonsense going on there that has nothing to do with doping.

Considering the number of times Armstrong has been tested, the lack of any positive results, and ignoring your dubious French lab's 'new more accurate test', I have to consider this idle speculation at best. Oh, and the media has reported this stuff over and over again, it is just that Armstrong, unlike Bonds, keeps getting tested and coming up clean. There is no conspiracy.

[KurtNYC]

17. "blood doping" is NOT steroids

Blood doping is usually a drug like Amgen's Epogen which boosts your red blood cell count. It is not detectable because Amgen (to their credit) refuses to put a chemical marker in it. The drug is used for cancer patients, people with anemia and others who's conditions would be worsened if Amgen put crap in to Epogen which their livers would have to deal with. To most people, the legal intended use of medicine and keeping it's side effects to a minimum outweigh the problems that sports entities are having controlling performance enhancing drugs.

And I don't think anyone has ever proven the Armstrong WAS using these drugs as alleged.

edit: changed Neupogen to Epogen. Neupogen boosts WHITE blood cell counts and is useful against infection-prone conditions.

[Psephos]

20. The difference is in the evidence

In Armstrong's case, the evidence is not "pretty hard", but instead, is based on hearsay and single-source lab work on old samples. In Bonds' case, the evidence is direct and strong.

See this article in Sports Illustrated for more info.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/03/06/news.excerpt/index.html

You also assert that Armstrong "was using illegal steroids." Actually, the controversy surrounds use of erythropoietin, which encourages the growth of more red blood cells. It's not a steroid. EP, as it's called, is used in chemotherapy patients.

I don't know whether or not Armstrong used illegal drugs to advantage, and will withhold judgment until there is evidence provided by someone who doesn't have a stake in the outcome. He may be guilty of it, but no one can say based on what I've seen so far. Armstrong's accusers seem motivated by something other than the rules of evidence or the interests of science. I'm always skeptical of biased sources.

Peace.

[0007]

22. I have to discount your post until you come with a link to back

up your assertions.

[garybeck]

31. OK

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/2005-08-24-armstrong-samples-details_x.htm

http://outside.away.com/outside/features/200512/lance-armstrong-1.html

Tour director Jean-Marie Leblanc called L'Equipe's report "very complete, very professional, very meticulous,"


of course there's a spin on it but I think it's pretty conclusive.

[0007]

57. Thanks garybeck.

There may be something to what you're saying. I think Bonds had a way out a while back and refused to take it and its a big to do now!. It is a mess.

[BiggJawn]

66. You're only telling PART of the story.

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/9550.0.html

Cycling's governing body the UCI has conceded that a leak by one of its own staff was the source of information that formed the basis of a newspaper article alleging that seven-time Tour de France champion Lance Armstrong was a drug cheat.

Last August French sports daily L'Equipe carried a front page story headlined "Armstrong's Lie" suggesting the Texan had used the illegal blood booster EPO (Erythropoietin) during his first Tour win in 1999.
<snip>

Now in an embarrassing admission the Union Cycliste Internationale says one of its employees was responsible for giving L'Equipe those confidential testing forms that linked the heretofore anonymous results to Armstrong.

<snip>

However now the UCI has conceded that the employee in fact handed over 15 examples and knew that the angle of the article on Armstrong was to show that the Texan had never received prior permission to take medications, including the corticosteroid, which appeared in small amounts in an early drug test in the 1999 Tour. Results of the test showed only trace amounts of the steroid, well below the level needed to trigger a positive. Nonetheless, Armstrong subsequently produced a prescription for the drug, which he said was part of a topical ointment used to treat a saddle sore.

-30-

People just LOVE to dump the inuendo and 5th-hand bullshit checkout-line tabloid shit on Lance, like the bullshit story that he dumped his wife "who saw him through his cancer treatment" (false) for Crow (also false)

If it ever comes out that he did lie to us, I'll be at the head of the line with a torch and pitchfork,just I did with Tyler "It's My Evil Chimera Twin's Blood" Hamilton but until then....

And I find the "Because Bonds is BLACK and Armstrong is WHITE" undercurrent being tossed around here reprehenisble, too. So, this story is so bogus that you can't do anything but throw the Race Card, eh? My,my, a tactic worthy of Alan Keyes... NOT DU.

[garybeck]

77. isn't there two sides to every story?

the original findings are pretty damning IMHO.

of course there will be spin, and people can react to the spin how they want.

[Swede]

23. He's passed every test.

I don't think the French would give an American a pass. Where's your links to this "evidence"?

[garybeck]

32. no he didn't

http://outside.away.com/outside/features/200512/lance-armstrong-1.html
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/2005-08-24-armstrong-samples-details_x.htm

[rinsd]

37. Chain of custody, illegal marking, illegal leaking and all that jazz (nt)

[garybeck]

44. spin, spin, spin

you can say all that, but others have called it irrefutable "proven scientific fact."

and have you ever seen the video of them disposing the needles? Why on earth would they drive 50 miles away to dispose of needles in a remote trash can?

[rinsd]

78. "Others"? Like the "some say" framing popular with RWers?

"and have you ever seen the video of them disposing the needles? Why on earth would they drive 50 miles away to dispose of needles in a remote trash can?"

Whose them? Which bust?

[WinkyDink]

26. Maybe it's a matter of proof.

[garybeck]

33. have you seen the proof on Bonds?

are there blood sample tests that tested positive? or witnesses of him injecting?

with armstrong, there are witnesses...

[rinsd]

39. Witnesses for Barry?

There's Gary Sheffield, there's his trainer, there's Balco execs etc etc. On and throw in a distraction wtiness the supposed embittered ex.

[genie_weenie]

92. Actually Barry admitted under oath to taking

steriods, it was just "unknowingly". Barry thought it was flaxseed oil...

[BuyingThyme]

28. Bonds destroyed America's pastime; Armstrong is just a Puke on a bike.

[stop the bleeding]

29. here you go - read the whole time line before commenting

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/mar06/mar02news2

- as far as I understand the EPO test used to identify his blood doping was not around back in 1998 or 1999 they were using a different one back then. This new method of test came about because several riders were having false positive cases overturned and the different authorities needed something better. As far as the group of riders that were tested from the late 90's all of the were to remain ANONYMOUS, Lance's file was the only one that was specially marked.(this is illegal within the cycling and testing community when these types of retro testing are being used for research) Also the person behind the leaked information is none other than Dick Pound head of the UCI, even thought Zorzoli is the Doctor behind it.

Anyone who follows cycling knows that all of the cyclists back then were using EPO, HGH, and various other techniques to go faster longer as they still do now. But as stated before the tests were not as good then, and since then no other riders have come under scrutiny because when testing old samples the files are supposed to remain anonymous, couple this with Dick Pound's conflict of ethics in this matter and you can see why the press has ignored it.

It would and will be a story if and when the take away some of his TDF titles.

Lastly bear in mind that cycling is the strictest sport in the WORLD when it comes to testing - all other sports have more lenient methods/tests including the Olympics. To compare baseball drug testing(lack thereof) to cycling is almost laughable when given my cats knew Bonds had been on roids for years - also my cats know/knew about several cyclists that all of sudden "get/got faster"

Hope this helps!!!

[stop the bleeding]

75. FUNNY - crickets- chirp chirp

:eyes:

[BiggJawn]

87. Really...

Forgetting, for the moment, that Lance got tested more times in the month of July than I'll lay odds Bonds has in his whole LIFE.

Like I've said, show me the PROOF, not some bullshit from a French newspaper.

For that matter, where's the proof on Bonds? OK, I'll give him the benefit of a doubt and say those arms came from 14 hours of push-ups every day.

And even if they have used 'Roids, it'll catch up with them.

Just ask Lyle Alzado and Ken Caminiti...Oh, you can't, they're DEAD.

[stop the bleeding]

91. Easy BiggJawn - I am

Cat III racer in cycling - did a pro race last weekend doing one this weekend - so I know exactly how hard this sport is.

My response that you are responding to, is in response to the lack of a response from the OP for thoughts and time line laid out at post# 29. Hope that is not confusing cause it sure sounds confusing when I am typing it.

I just thought it to be funny that I provided links and a well reasoned argument to answer/disprove the OP's original comments post#29, and the funny part is that they have been all up and down this thread commenting, but for some reason they do not want to touch post# 29.

I am on your side,

Forgetting, for the moment, that Lance got tested more times in the month of July than I'll lay odds Bonds has in his whole LIFE.


correction: Lance has been tested more than any other athlete in the history of sports - period, on top of that people do not see all of the money that Lance has given to to ensure better and more accurate testing in regards to doping.

most people do not see that if you were trying to hide something, then you wouldn't help out those same people that could bust you.

Peace!!!

[BiggJawn]

100. It's All Good!

Hey, I'm on your side here, too. Sure is a lack of responses, isn't it?

Just gotta understand that some people hate Lance for just being Lance, I guess.

How'd you do last weekend, BTW?

[stop the bleeding]

106. I got smoked here is a link to the race site - take a look

http://www.batonrougecycling.com/Rouge_Roubaix/Rouge_Roubaix.htm

100 mile road race 20 miles are off road and you use your regular road bike - the 1st dirt section is 8-9 miles long and it gets going 27-31mph

They call this race the Hell of the South.

Even though I got smoked I am looking forward to this weekend so that I can try out some of my new power.

I will give an update in the cycling forum when I am done on Sunday to let you know.

BTW there is already one race update from earlier where I got a flat tire - some days peanuts some days shells.

Peace!!!

[pitohui]

35. i don't know why any of them get skewered

i guess i don't fully understand the mentally of why it is wrong to take a performance-enhancing drug, it is not wrong to use other kinds of performance-enhancing technology, such as a better club at golf or a better built bike than what we had available back in the day, take a vitamin and it's OK, take a steroid and it isn't OK, i've never understood this, is it because the steroid actually does work to improve performance and the vitamin is just a waste of money so we can tolerate the ineffective product and not the effective one?

i can accept why horses shouldn't be doped, they have no choice in the matter

but an adult human being who is informed of the risks by his doctor, why shouldn't it be his choice?

my personal choice is to avoid steroids but easy for me to say, as i am not particularly dedicated to excelling in my sport, if you want to be the best, is it not natural to pursue every method for making yourself the best?

exercise is unnatural too! that's why it's hell on the knees

[Jayhawk Lib]

40. I wholeheartedly agree with you....nt

[garybeck]

36. "proven scientific facts"

On Wednesday, tour director Jean-Marie Leblanc sounded convinced that Armstrong had been caught.


"For the first time -- and these are no longer rumors, or insinuations, these are proven scientific facts -- someone has shown me that in 1999, Armstrong had a banned substance called EPO in his body," Leblanc told the newspaper.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/news/story?id=2141710&num=0

[Psephos]

45. That's called "Appeal to Authority" - it's one of the logical fallacies

Read Carl Sagan's Baloney Detector Kit for insight into how to separate valid science from junk science.

The evidence you've alluded to is not demonstrably false, but neither is it demonstrably true, and there are a lot of problems concerning the bias of its sources, and the unreproducibility of its only lab work. It may find political supporters, but no scientist would stand behind this mess.

http://www.carlsagan.com/revamp/carlsagan/baloney.html

Peace.

[hfojvt]

46. I am not a big fan of Lance

but that is just too lame. For one, it is a seven year old sample - so there is no way to retest if this is a false result. Second the man did not just win the TDF in 1999. He won seven of them, and passed the required tests every year. If he is gonna get caught is should be in a more recent, if not the latest, race.
IIRC this story was raised on DU right after it was released and debunked pretty soundly in my eyes.

[Balbus]

38. What punishment has Bonds received that Lance hasn't?

What do you mean by "skewered"? As far as I know, Bonds is still allowed to play ball, his records still stand, and the Giants haven't mentioned waiving or trading him... Yeah, some writers are saying nasty things about him, but writers said nasty things about Lance, too. As of yet, I haven't seen any unfair actions taken against Bonds that wasn't taken against Lance, though.

[rinsd]

41. Bingo!

The French press write abotu Lance as if he were a 2nd Hitler coming to invade.

Writers have always ragged on Bonds because well he's an asshole.

[CanSocDem]

120. I don't think so....

Sportswriters don't like Bonds because he won't tolerate or answer stupid questions. They can't do their job.

[rinsd]

128. chuckle....

It's not just the writers, its his teammmates, ex teammates, players around the league etc. Even Gary Sheffield who is supposed to be his friend thinks he's an asshole.

[garybeck]

43. it just came out two days ago.

give it a month. **IF** he is still in uniform by opening day, which is still in doubt, he will be toasted in every ballpark like you've never seen before. He will not be playing by the end of the year, and he will not make it to the hall of fame.

[Balbus]

47. And Lance Armstrong won't be cycling in competition....

by the end of the year. So if what you say happens to come true, then nothing still would have happened to Bonds that hasn't happened to Lance.

[garybeck]

56. except

the media is ROASTING Bonds, but the (several) stories about Armstrong's drug use are buried in the media and just today he's on the front page of CNN for helping Dana Reeve's son cope with the loss. a "true american hero" (my quotes)

[Balbus]

62. So we're talking about skewered by the media?

Maybe that has to do with the fact there are a thousand times more writers for baseball than there are for cycling?

[garybeck]

79. i don't think so

media sets conventional wisdom.

if the media ever seriously questioned Armstrong's integrity, he wouldn't be on the CNN home page right now, for being a hero, helping Dana Reeve's son... he's still at the top. he gets all kinds of awards.

bonds is heading straight to the trash can. he'll make Pete Rose seem like a boy scout.

[rinsd]

80. What is your deal?

Seriously, you're comparing the media coverage in this country for baseball and cycling? Are you really that ignorant of media coverage of said sports or are you just pretending to start a flame war of Barry vs. Lance?

Also if you want to talk about "skewering" see the French media, they've been calling Lance a doper every since he won their precious Tour.

So what is the issue here? That Barry should be treated better or that we should villify Lance?

Could it be a cancer survivor is more sympathetic than a selfish asshole?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

48. Lance represents white 'Murka. Bonds is just another black athlete.

USA!! USA!!

[Psephos]

130. What a constrained world view

Lance represents people who almost died and then came back and did something amazing.

Bonds represents people who think no rules apply if you want something bad enough.

I can think of plenty of assholes in sports who happen to be white, and plenty of angels in sports who happen to be black. Did you consider that automatically categorizing Armstrong and Bonds on the basis of their skin rather on the basis of their character might also be racist? It's not a cynical-but-hip joke to say what you said, it's just perpetuation of an idea that's way past its expiration date.

Peace.

[alfredo]

49. There were serious problems with the chain of custody. There is no

way to know for sure if the samples were his or if they had been contaminated. There is also an ugly side to this story: nationalism. Some do not like non French winning the tour. There have been incidents in the past of sabatoge, fans punching non French riders, and in one case a fan shot an Italian rider who was leading the race.

If Lance was doping, he should be exposed, but until he can be found guilty, we must assume he is innocent. There were other factors that let to his success. First, he built his season around the tour. He spent his days riding the course, concentrating on stages where he saw trouble or advantage. Nobody on the circuit had the training regime of Lance. Many racers race themselves into shape, not Lance. Every aspect was managed. They weighed the food he consumed, they monitored every vital sign, they designed his bike, adjusted his position, altered his pedal strokes, all in the advancement of his efficiency.

The team they selected for him was finely tuned for the tour. Every rider was wired. At any given moment the team manager knew how fast their heart rate. Every rider wore a headset so they knew exactly what was happening with Lance and the rest of the peleton. Superior tactics helped pave the way for Lance to win. Without the smart riding of his team and managers, he would not have won, no matter how good or how doped he was.

Lance himself had incredible numbers. His lung capacity was huge, so was his heart. His resting pulse rate was 32. A good athlete can tell by his resting pulse rate in the morning how good they will perform that day. I remember one US rider who said that when he saw his resting pulse was 35, he knew he would win that day. He did.

From Lance Armstrongs fan site:

"Once we settle down to talk at a long wooden table, we are swapping stories about George W. Bush, his fellow Texan. We agree that our politics are different to Bush's, but that the President is smarter, funnier and more likeable than the caricature. Even Sheryl, whose politics Armstrong describes as "way out Left", says that it's hard to meet Bush and not like him. I had assumed, because he and Bush were Texans and I'd seen pictures of them laughing and joking in the Oval Office, that Armstrong was a Republican. But he says his politics are "middle to Left". He is "against mixing up State and Church, not keen on guns, pro women's right to choose". And very anti war in Iraq.

So the "summit" has begun and here I am, thinking that I'd be getting hours of top-quality insight for my triathlon training, and, instead, it's like I am back in my old job, defending military action, defending the Bush-Blair relationship, insisting we did the right thing and saying, long term, it will make the world a safer place. But Armstrong is screwing up his face and he won't have it. "I don't like what the war has done to our country, to our economy," he says. "My kids will be paying for this war for some time to come. George Bush is a friend of mine and just as I say it to you, I'd say to him, 'Mr President, I'm not sure this war was such a good idea', and the good thing about him is he could take that."

He mocks my line that you have to "give it time" before those weapons of mass destruction show up. "You know when they caught Saddam and the doctors were rooting through his beard and Sheryl said to me, 'Why are they doing that?' and I said, 'They're looking for them weapons'. Come on, man." He laughs and shakes his head and I know I'm not going to persuade him. "What's Blair like?" he asks. "He a good guy?" I say he is. "Yeah, looks a good guy."

Enough of politics. Now for religion. Despite the chapel, despite the crucifix around his neck (a link with a fellow cancer patient), Armstrong is deeply suspicious of organised religion. He never knew his "so-called father", and he says that in all his 32 years, he has never asked his Mum, Linda, a single question about him. He was born with the name Gunderson, then his mother married the man who gave him his name. Terry Armstrong talked religion but used to beat Lance with a paddle and he was relieved when he walked out. "He was like me in that he got his name from someone else," Armstrong says. "His biological name was Love. But his Mom married a man named Raymond Armstrong, a preacher. It's weird, I've got his name, my kids have his name but I have never met him and I never want to meet him."


http://www.lancearmstrongfanclub.com/uktimesonline.html

[alfredo]

50. Personality differnces. Lance is friendly, Bonds is not.

Lance is a sympathetic character, bonds is not. Back story means a lot.

[Sequoia]

51. I remember that, mentioned here on DU and got the royal flame.

"You hate bicycles", "You hate cancer patients", silly stuff. Also, look at the two white guys who wrote the book about Barry B. Let's not forget our own Arnie did steriods too. Always different rules for Black people..always.

[Balbus]

63. I must have been reading a different DU during tha time.

Lance was absolutely bbq'd on DU - for both the drugs and the bike ride with Bush. No loving for Lance on these boards.

[Sequoia]

69. Considering, I only have computer at work I didn't see it. DRATS!

He came to our town during the Amgran Bike Race. This woman in pizza place I went for lunch the next day told us about it.

[rinsd]

86. Actually he got skewered more for drugs after his bike ride....

..."shocking" on a partisan board but that just tha way it is.

[rinsd]

82. Really?

You think Mark McGuire has it easy right now? I will say at this moment because he has already retired. But just wait. The HOF vote this coming year should be interesting to say the least.

[MadHound]

52. Umm, maybe because there is irrefutable proof,

Along with many reputable witnesses that Bonds indeed was using steroids, whereas Armstrong has passed every single test put to him, and the only test that counterdicts that is seven years old, and wouldn't be admitted into a kangaroo court much less a legal one due to chain of custody, possible tampering, age etc. Oh, and the one lonely witness has got huge credibility problems also.

Let me guess, you're a Giants/Bonds fan aren't you. Well, quite frankly I hope ol' Barry crashes and burns early in the season and that he doesn't set anymore records in what's left of his career. Not only does he cheat with steroids, but the man is a supreme ass on top of it.

[garybeck]

58. no, you are completely wrong.

I am not a Bonds fan. I think he SHOULD get roasted. He's guilty and deserves everything he gets. I hope they take away his records and he never gets in the hall of fame.

my problem is that Armstrong gets treated with kid gloves. there's a lot of evidence surrounding his story but it never really is given any creedence in the media, and he's still up on a pedestal.

[MadHound]

72. Well let's see here,

Armstrong has passed some of the most rigorous tests in the world, time and again. The only test that has come up positive is one, 1, test done under questionable circumstances(no chain of custody, no tamper control, no substitution control, etc.), by a French lab whose motivations are much less than pure. This isn't "lots of evidence" this is a hatchet job done out of dubious, most likely nationalistic motivations.

Really now, don't you think that if Armstrong was doing 'roids, we'd see the proof? Nobody, including Armstrong, can do 'roids in any effective quantity without changing the physical appearance of their body, especially their jawline. Steroids build up the muscles that are used, and the jaw muscles are some of the most frequently used muscles on a human. Thus steroid users all start looking like chipmunks with nuts in their cheeks, due to the growth of their jaw muscles. Bonds exhibits this, McGuirere exhibited this, Lance doesn't.

And really now, do you honestly think that somebody who has gone through testicular cancer is going to endanger not just his genitals(where roids have a pronounced effect), much less his life by taking steroids? Sorry, I just can't buy this.

I just don't understand this irrational hatred of Armstrong. Is it because he went bike-riding with Bush? How petty is that, really. The man just won a record number of TDF, what do you expect. It would be like the Steelers refusing to appear with the President this year, you would be insulting the office, not the man. And as a previous poster has shown upthread, Lance is not a Republican, he is a middle to left leaning Democrat. Sheesh, how the hell do you think Crow would have stayed with him all this time if he was a rabid Bush supporter:eyes:

There's a good reason Lance is still up on that pedestal, it's because he has accomplished a feat in sports that has never been done before, and may never be equaled. And he did it without resorting to banned substances or other forms of cheating. If you can't understand that, them I'm sorry, but I think you've allowed your jealousy and envy get the better of you.

[Blue Belle]

61. From what I understand... Bonds passed all his steroid tests too.

And as for eye witnesses... there are plenty of them to go around for both parties. The point is, steroids are getting virtually undetectable in EVERY area of sport.

Taken from King Kaufman's Sports Daily on Salon.com:
http://www.salon.com/sports/col/kaufman/2006/03/08/wednesday/index1.html

<SNIP>It's the fact that Conte, Bonds' personal trainer Greg Anderson and the rest of the BALCO crowd were so indiscreet and yet so safe from both sports and real-world law enforcement.

<SNIP>That's the story here. Not that the most prominent jerk and steroid abuser in baseball really was a jerk and a steroid abuser. But that law enforcement is so comically behind the drug pushers.

The cops are barely even in the game. How could they be? There's no money in law enforcement. The real money's in the cheating. If there's another BALCO somewhere right now -- and why wouldn't there be? -- the drug cops are almost certainly in the dark about it.

It's a joke to worry about whether Bonds' records have damaged the integrity of the game. Bonds is a hard rain, but for all we know the game's integrity is being washed away by a tsunami of cheating.

And speaking of team chemistry, we haven't even entered the coming era of genetic testing.


Another interesting factoid in regard to steroid use at the Olympics:
http://www.salon.com/sports/col/kaufman/2006/02/27/monday/index1.html

<SNIP>Officials administered a reported 1,200 drug tests, a 71 percent increase over the last Winter Games, in 2002. And there was one positive. One. In Salt Lake, seven athletes tested positive out of 700 tests.

So, thanks to the crackdown by world anti-doping forces, we've gone from 1 percent of the tests coming up positive to 0.083 percent. Problem solved! Glad we cleared that up.

<SNIP>Positive tests are not required to punish athletes for drug use, the IOC says. It takes circumstantial evidence into account.

That's probably wise, because drug testing is obviously one of the most abject, spectacular law enforcement failures since Prohibition.

Either that or the Olympics are now suddenly a collection of the cleanest, most drug-free saints ever gathered in one place. On second thought, yeah, I'm sure that's it.

[leftofthedial]

54. because of those cute little wristbands

and because Barry Bonds is also a world class asshole

[garybeck]

59. so the lesson is

you can cheat and get away with it if you're a nice guy?

has anyone thought that maybe the reason Barry Bonds is such an asshole is because he's pumped up with all kinds of drugs in the first place?

maybe having all that crap in your system makes you act like a jerk. for god's sake, one of the substances listed is a FEMALE hormone used to increase the chances of getting pregnant. I'm not making excuses, the dude is a loser for doing all that stuff and cheating the game.

[leftofthedial]

60. no. "getting away" with it depends on the governing bodies

So far, Bonds has "gotten away" with it.

Cheating is despicable.

But the media who cover a sport are less likely to dig for dirt on a "nice guy" who treats them with professional respect and more likely to pursue leads, rumors and innuendo against a rude, arrogant jerk who consistently refuses to talk to them, berates them, goes out of his way to cultivate an adversarial relationship with them, and who is unpopular with their readers because he also treats fans badly.

[Balbus]

64. Again, I have to ask..

What has Lance "Gotten away with" that Bonds hasn't?

[adwon]

68. A testing lab in France

From what I've read on this thread, this 'evidence' seems like more of the usual from the French regarding Armstrong. I don't know if you've followed the Tour the last few years, but Armstrong's wins have provoked a lot of anger. He's been regularly demonized by the press and accused of taking every illegal substance possible. Accordingly, the man has been poked and prodded constantly in an effort to check up on the accusations. The amazing part of this story isn't that people claim he took 'steroids' or blood oxygen boosters, it's the fact that anybody takes anything a French source says about Armstrong seriously. Seriously, this is like trying to get Michigan fans to be objective about Ohio State.

As for the not-so-subtly implied racism, there have been hundreds of stories about the accusations against Armstrong over the last few years. The fact of the matter is that steroids is baseball is a big deal AT THE MOMENT. Use of whatever in cycling is not. Not only that, bear in mind that Bonds is a direct heir (in terms of records) to Ruth. Any possible taint on that particular record means infinitely more than winning 500 Tours in a row.

[maveric]

71. Lance has always been a good guy and Bonds has always been an asshole.

You act nice to the media over your career and they take it easier on you.
You treat the media like shit and act like an asshole to them and they crucify you.

[rinsd]

81. It's not just the media ,his teammates & other players hate him too.

[onenote]

73. it has nothing to do with race

That's like saying that the reason more attention is lavished on claims that Michael Jackson abused kids than on allegations that Gary GLitter did the same thing is that GLitter is white.

The fact is that neither Raphael Palmeiro nor Mark McGwire are African-American and both have been "skewered" for their steroid use. http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2005-03-21-mcgwire-approval_x.htm And Jose Canseco is basically considered a joke. To the extent Bonds use of steroids is a bigger story its because unlike McGwire, he's still playing and, in any event,
he's a bigger "star" -- the guy most viewed as having the best chance to top Hank Aaron as the games all time home run leader. Moreover, the comparison with Lance Armstrong simply ignores the fact that, at least for Americans, baseball is a vastly more popular sport than the Tour de France. How much more popular: the typical tv viewership in the US for the Tour de France was under two million homes. For the deciding game of the 2003 World Series between the Florida Marlins and the Yankees: 23 million homes.
Finally, consider the following -- in 2004, the NFL punished three players for steroid use -- Chris Cooper, Barret Robbins and Dana Stubblifield -- Cooper and Robbins are white, Stubblefield is African-American. All three got the same punishment and the story was essentially a one day news item for all three...why? Because unlike Barry Bonds, Cooper, Robbins and Stubblefield are not "superstars"

onenote

[EFerrari]

88. Part of the problem in this situation is that there is a history of

racism in baseball and in particular, in San Francisco baseball. This city treated Willie Mays miserably for marrying a white woman.

While you may be right about the Bonds / McGuire case, it is playing out in the context of that history.

[Oeditpus Rex]

95. I must've missed something

When did Mays marry a white woman? His first wife, Marguerite, was black. I think they married in 1962. (When they divorced a couple of years later, there were accusations in the SF press that Mays beat her. Racism? Maybe.)

I'm not questioning, I'm asking. I was not aware of this.

[EFerrari]

96. His second wife. I was a mere sprat at the time but lemme go

fish and see if I can find a link.

I remember because it was a topic of discussion at our dinner table -- my family is Latino, loved Mays and were very upset by the community's treatment of him.

[rinsd]

97. Willie Mays married a white woman?

San Fran treated him like shit when he first moved there but I didn't know he married a white woman.

http://www.outsidelands.org/sw5.php

I am pretty sure that Barry has a white girlfriend and has had a white wife though

[EFerrari]

102. This is so wierd. I can't find ANYTHING. I find

refs to him being blocked from buying a house in Daly City (a burb of SF) in 1957, but nothing about his second marriage.

It's like, it didn't happen.

Poof. I'll keep looking but by now I feel like I'm poking around in someone's private life.

[rinsd]

107. I have his second wife's name....

Its Mae Louise Mays (I know, I know, Mae Mays sounds like a sandwich topping). I just couldn't find any reference to her ethnicity.

[EFerrari]

108. I just mailed my best baseball friend. See if he has something.

So strange.

If I'm wrong, I'll cop to it. But, whenever I put "interracial marriage Mays" or similar terms in, he always comes up. It's never stated directly.

:eyes:

[rinsd]

119. No sweat...

This is all kind of semantic anyway. I have ZERO doubt Mays was traeted horribly by many people in San Fran and elsewhere.

[EFerrari]

121. I don't remember the year, but the Giants were in the play offs

and my mom took us out to the airport. Because those Latina chicks go nuts for the big bats. :)

And there they were, our guys, sitting in the lounge.

My little bro went up to Mays for an autograph, and Mays said, "Go ask McCovey. He's a Willie."

It was so sad.

This town owes Willie Mays a big fat old apology. He was the real deal.

[rinsd]

127. Mays was beyond amazing....(nt)

[onenote]

98. actually Mays was treated miserably before his divorce

I don't think his marriage to a white woman (which, in all honestly, I don't recall) was a trigger for his being treated badly in San Franciso. In the late 1950s, when Willie and his first wife (who also was African American) first bought a home in San Francisco, they were treated terribly, so much so that they finally sold the house and moved back to New York. I have seen it suggested that the racism directed at them in San Francisco contributed to the break up of his marriage. http://www.outsidelands.org/sw5.php

[EFerrari]

103. I was born in 1955 so the early 50's are a little remote.

And, I'm finding nada about his second marriage although searching "interracial marriage Willie Mays" and so on.

I don't have the imagination to dream this up. Hmm.

[redqueen]

74. YES! THIS IS A VERY, VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE!

:wtf:

:eyes:

[Norquist Nemesis]

76. $$$$$$$$$$$$

Not to mention even Congress is involved in the running of baseball. Cycling doesn't hold a candle to the money that's involved.

[Ron Green]

83. Don't forget that a sports figure is nothing but an ENTERTAINER.

And therefore is subject to the whims of a public and a press that favor a friendly face and abhor an asshole.

[newportdadde]

90. Well one reason is because Bonds has been an asshole his whole career to

teamates and media alike. The second is because its pretty freakin obvious the guy isn't legit, take a look at him years ago versus now and you can see the change. Big MAC isn't a whole hell of a lot better. Personally I think they should both have there records taken away and banned. This kind of crap ruins the sport.

[lies and propaganda]

94. Because Bonds is such a prick

I dont thinks its race, hes just such an asshole and people love to watch jerks go down.

[Ksec]

101. I dont like neither one of them

They are cheaters. Bonds should be stripped of any record he holds. If Armstrong has broken rules and its proven then he should also.

[flvegan]

104. Lance is an "American hero" winning a race in another country against

other nationalities. America (gag!) embraces him. Bonds is just another superstar baseball playing flavor of the month. Baseball fans are also notorious for turning on players that they feel "betrayed" them.

As for the steroid thing, it's very likely he used some sort of illegal substance. The testing in, by and large, crap, unless they test the hair (which they may well do). The blood and urine tests I believe only show steroids if they're less than 10 or 14 days out from using. I'll have to look that up, though.

[ieoeja]

109. Cancer survivor?

1. Armstrong's a bicyclist which means very few people would really give a shit one way or the other were it not for his being a cancer survivor.

2. Armstrong is THE one and only American to ever dominate bicycling. While Bonds is one of hundreds of big time home run hitters.

3. According to every poll I have seen, very few people care that Bonds used steroids which makes the premise of this thread false.

[mdmc]

110. Lance is white

Bonds is black.

[onenote]

115. race is not the reason

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=624637&mesg_id=626553

[mdmc]

117. oh I thought it was.

:kick:

[yellowcanine]

111. The media DID report that because I heard it. I didn't hear the "bag of

needles" thing and frankly don't believe it. I also don't trust that French lab. One lab gets a result and there is not enough sample to verify it at another lab? And the French had no motivation to show that Lance may have cheated? Please. We weren't born yesterday. The reason Lance didn't "get skewered" is there was preciousl little hard evidence that he did anything wrong. Innocent until proven guilty still applies, even in international sports. No one gets nailed for ONE unrepeatable positive test. No one, not in baseball, not in football, not in the Olympics. False positives do occur, I don't care how "new and more accurate" the test was. Does anyone know whether that "new and more accurate" test works just as well on old samples as on new samples? Does anyone know what the "chain of custody" was on that sample?

So your "pretty hard evidence" is an anecdote about a bag of needles from "people who work with him", "one of his associates", etc. and ONE unverifiable positive blood test. For this you would trash the reputation of probably the best athlete, bar none, of our time. I've got news for you. Steroids didn't win those races. Lance Armstrong did.

[MrSlayer]

112. Because he's a piece of shit as a person as well as a cheater.

And he's made a joke out of what are some of the most sacred records in sports. No one really gives a shit about bike riding, baseball is America's pastime. He and the other steroid clowns McGwire and Sosa should be stricken from the record books. Restore Roger Maris to his rightful place as the single season home run king. The vilification of Bonds has nothing to do with race and everything to do with being an asshole and a cheater.

[SoCalDem]

114. Ya know?? I really don;t care.. They pay with their lives eventually

so why not just put asterisks by ALL records since the 80's and a disclaimer.. Let the public decide.. They DO anyway..

For the ones who don't use steroids..they will be rewarded with a longer healthier life, and all they have to do to clean up the "game" is to start turning in the ones who DO the drugs and get them OUT of the game...

or maybe the leagues could set some stricter weight/height/bmi limitations to catch the cheaters..

[SaveElmer]

116. Because there is no evidence at all against Lance Armstrong...

The French test is completely bogus. There are reasons why testing procedures have very strict chain of possession standards, back up testing, provisions for representatives of the tested person to be involved. It is because of shit like this French paper pulled. This alleged positive is not in any way reliable, and is just as likely to be a fabrication.

[Swamp Rat]

122. "The French test is completely bogus."

Yep, and if the OP could read French, he would know the long history of French tabloids concerning this matter, and the relentless and baseless attacks on Armstrong.

[Swamp Rat]

123. Je n'y crois pas à ces conneries!

Sans preuve pleine, L'Equipe est rien que de la merde! :eyes:

[EFerrari]

124. Translation for us dummies, por favor!

:hug:

[Swamp Rat]

125. There is NO evidence that Armstrong used performance enhancing drugs

The charge was made by a sports tabloid (L'Equipe) that often prints 'manufactured facts' in order to sell their pathetic rag. :eyes:

I am not saying Armstrong did NOT use performance enhancing drugs, but there is NO TANGIBLE EVIDENCE to date that proves he did. The charge was made by people who have been trying to smear Armstrong for nearly a decade.

[EFerrari]

126. Thank you, Swampy. What IN THE WORLD IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE

that they'd stoop to this?

It just boggles the mind.

If atheletes are using steroids, it's because they felt the pressure to do it.

The real pushers will get off.

[rinsd]

129. LOL...I don't speak French but I do know merde! (nt)