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The Very Simple Way To Win On Abortion

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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 12:35 AM
Original message
The Very Simple Way To Win On Abortion
I've posted on this before, and I've noticed others have posted it recently as well.

And it bears repeating until we are blue in the face.

There is one, simple way to win the abortion debate.

ASK THEM, FORCE THEM, TO SAY WHAT THEY WOULD DO WITH WOMEN WHO BREAK THE LAW.

If abortion is murder, as they believe, then a woman who gets an abortion has committed a crime.

What would their sentence be for a woman who had an abortion? Five years? Thirty years?

Where would you build the prisons for all these women? WHere would the money come from for all the prisons.

If they say they would only hold the doctor accountable, then ask them how they can permit women to "murder" their babies and not be punished for it. Don't crimes that go unpunished lead to a society in chaos?

Their position is untenable, but we have to hold their feet to the fire.

They have never been publicly forced to follow through their arguments to the logical conclusions.

Every pro choice politician should be adopting this.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO WITH ALL THE WOMEN WHO BREAK THE LAW?
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
1. Laws usually address those who actually perform the abortion
and make it difficult for women to get one.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Sorry, but that doesn't cut it
If they believe that abortion is murder, it is the WOMAN, with the aid of her physician, who is committing that murder.

And if they only punish the Doctor, are they advocating a society where people can commit murder randomly and go unpunished?

What about women who try self induced abortions?

Use logic to pin these people into the corner. Do NOT adopt THEIR logic, but instead force them to tell us: what would you do with all the women who break the law?
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. Well if you're looking for a "win" on abortion
especially a simple one, you're never going to find it. Ever.

I remember Roe vs. Wade. The arguments for and against are exactly what they were thirty years ago. They are arguments which made many a face blue, but have seldom changed minds.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. But we've never forced them to take their position
to its logical conclusion.

We've tried every argument in the book except for the one that works.

Make them accountable for their logic.

They want a constitutional amendment to ban abortion?

Ok, what would they do with the women who break the law?
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oneold1-4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
18. Just so happens
There is one very simple means for any woman to cause an abortion. The info is available and it is quite simple and naturalistic, although advise is, for check up and/or medical care immediately after, if any complications exist.
Study a bit of history about planned pregnancies so birth would only be in spring when the child would have better chance of survival. This was done even among many American Indians.
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Dissent Is Patriotic Donating Member (793 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. The problem with herbal abortifacients and
non-conventional methods is that tissue may remain in the uterus. This tissue can cause life-threatening problems. The woman might require a D&C or D&E afterwards anyway.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
2. Or, "What are will you do with the DEAD women from botched abortions?"
Because there will be plenty of women who die that way.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. No, they don't give a fuck about that
That's not what this argument is about.

This is about FRAMING. The "women will have to back to the wire hanger in the alley" argument does absolutely nothing.

The argument which shows the huge FISSURE in their logic is the one which forces them to take their position to the conclusion:

What would you do with women who break the law?
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #6
23. Agreed--this is not important to them. BUT, the bottom-line just might be
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
4. Some naively think that making it illegal will stop it.
No Roe, no abortions--it's that simple! :eyes:

Before Roe v. Wade there were one million abortions in the U.S. every year; that's another thing to keep reminding people about.

A second question to ask: who is going to pay for the support to raise all of the children born to the women who can't get abortions but can't afford to raise a child? The problem of dead-beat dads is well-known. Poverty seems to be a major reason for choosing to abort a pregnancy.

These pious folks only want to get the fetus safely born. They have no plans for what to do next.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. I know some here may think this is not relevant, but it IS!
I really have NEVER met or heard of ANYONE who WANTED abortions! Every woman wants or doesn't want to get pregnant! If the problem is "getting pregnant" why is there a problem promoting birth control of some kind?

I know some believe artificial BC methods are a sin. They only believe in the rythem method. OK, that's fine for them. But why not promote education abput other methods of BC? There are 100+!!!! If you don't want to use any of them, that fine, but isn't it more desireable to prevent the pregnancy instead of terminating it?
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #4
19. That's the angle I use
I ask when they're going to go and adopt all the unwanted babies. Most of them just sit and whine but don't do anything. Or ask if they're going to help the woman pay for the medical bills and personal items needed to raise a child.
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oneold1-4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
25. At this moment
A gathering of males is trying to change all laws on child support! These are the ones that can only say that they didn't "plan" the child!
They need to be forced back in school to learn about how it happens without any pre-planning!
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
5. You have a valid point. I suspect if they want to hold the Dr.
responsible, at worst, the woman is equaly guilty. somce there could be no crime if either one was absent! Unfortunately, I'm not so sure the fundies wouldn't just say "Punishe them both equaly!

Would they win a battle like that? I doubt it, but I'm really not sure.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. They can't win that battle
you've hit the nail on the head.

Once we've forced the frame of the debate to be about women going to jail for having abortions, the vast middle will totally reject the anti choice position.

But, first, we have to start hammering it home, again and again.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #5
21. I've read one person say
that if a woman has an abortion she should be hanged in the public square. :eyes:
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
8. They refuse to face the fact women even exist in the abortion
issue. It's all about control of the female body without acknowledging the woman. They'll punish the doctor who performs the abortion.

Now they are saying that the innocent unborn's life should require sacrifice of the woman's body in the event of the woman's life being endangered. It is the unborn child who takes precedence. What's a woman anyway?

They better learm, a woman votes and pays taxes. The GOP extremists want to simply wish the woman to go away if the woman disagrees with their extremist standard on abortion. Let her die...she's only a woman.

Sorry, it's not going to play out that way.
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countmyvote4real Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. I wish more men and women understood that.
Not to let men off the hook, but there are legions of women that don't get or believe that they are equal citizens that don't have to defer their rights or their bodies to their husband or the state.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. erica, I disagree with you.
Most of the "pro life" folks believe life begins at conception. ANYTHING that terminates that life is murder. Believe me, I went to a Catholic school for 12 years. That's what they teach you. In a situation of life of the mother, I suspect they would say, let God decide.

You are trying to make logical decisions about religious belifs, and it can't happem that way!

There is NO logic in religion! Only faith!!!!!
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Which is exactly why
we have to take their logic and then FORCE them to reach the logical conclusion with it.

The problem for them is that their logical conclusion only can lead to a VERY unpopular political position.

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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. I understand Catholic beliefs
but we are not a Catholic country. As long as women pay taxes and vote, they will determine their reproductive rights.

Let the legislators start paying bills on faith rather than women's taxes, and they'll learn.
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emdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
14. I usually ask them....
if they are certain that no Republicans have ever had an abortion. That gets a stutter as a reply!!
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phiddle Donating Member (749 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
17. Another frame is: Get the Government OUT of private life.
Works for civil unions, abortion, the right to die laws (think Terry Schiavo), wiretapping, and others. Most Americans treasure their privacy, and we should brand the Repubs as the snooping party.
Is not the "right to an abortion, but rather the "right to choose" without big brother telling you what to do.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. Right
We saw the backlash of them butting into Terri Schavio's life. Ask them if they would want Tom DeLay or Bill Frist coming knocking on your door. I don't!
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #17
28. Bush has accepted the right wing conservative morals
as his own. The party will probably go under because W is fiscally liberal and socially conservative.

He will insert Christian theocracy, big government, into private lives whenever he can. They brung him to the party and he's going home with them.
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Dissent Is Patriotic Donating Member (793 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
20. Make their heads explode...
Edited on Fri Mar-10-06 01:28 AM by Dissent Is Patriotic
from http://firedoglake.blogspot.com /
posted by Jane Hamsher

I brought up one of my favorite forced birth conundrums the other day, guaranteed to make wingnut "life begins at conception" heads explode. If a fire breaks out in a fertility clinic and you can only save a petri dish with five blastulae or a two-year old child, which do you save?

We just love Mike Stark, who takes this stuff to the streets. He called Andrew Wilkow's radio talk show and put the question to him, and Wilkow's head did, in fact, explode. He was reduced to a sputtering rage, screaming that he would not, in fact, save the two year-old child. Mike hung right in there with him and the results are predictably hilarious. You can just feel Wilkow's listeners flipping the channel and saying "fuck that noise, that guy's insane." It's a brilliant little sound clip.



(There is an audio clip, this entry is toward the middle of the page)
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #20
27. but the inhabitant of the petrie dish
was so more vulnerable and so more innocent. Any right winger knows they need to protect the petrie dish inhabitant rather than than the two year old,...and the mother is so far down the line she's not even considered (But we have to keep some of those women around to insure the tax base) everything is so up in the air.
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gumby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 02:22 AM
Response to Original message
26. The pro-rapist group is way past 'logic.'
They don't think they have to answer your question! It's not up to them to bother with the outcome of their 'beliefs.' It's only up to them to "save lives." Your question is irrelevant to them.

There has already been precedent for prosecuting pregnant women for drug and alcohol use.

Even though the majority of this country supports "choice" (I hate that word), it has been so long since Roe v Wade, that I think most people have regulated this 'argument' to 'those extremists over there.'

Most people I know don't even relate to the abortion 'debate' or what it means to them or their children because they never had to think about it. It's all an abstraction to them. It doesn't affect them (yet). They don't care and the pro-rapist contingent doesn't care either.

It is quite sad that most people in this country don't give a crap about their own freedoms. Remember that recent story about a survey that said most people could identify the Simpsons but couldn't identify the freedoms guaranteed in the First Amendment of Our Constitution?


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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. aaargh
We don't care about THEM. We care about capturing the minds of the middle of the roaders - the nominally pro choice within limits crowd.

We will never change the minds of the anti choice crowd.

This is about winning on the issue politically - NOT about changing the minds of far rightwing freaks.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 03:35 AM
Response to Original message
29. You can't win a battle based on logic with people who don't care
about logic. They don't need logic -- all they need is enough votes in the legislature. They did have enough votes in South Dakoka, where indeed only the doctors will be punished (with a felony). Their reasoning? The pregnant woman is under psychological duress, the doctor isn't.

But they don't really think they need a reason, if they have the votes. Remember, these are the guys who "make their own reality."
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. We're not trying to reason with THEM
we're trying to showcase to the voters in the MIDDLE of the spectrum how totally absurd their arguments are.

We're never going to change THEIR minds. But we can solidify support amongst middle of the road types by making them understand how unworkable the anti choice position is.
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 06:32 AM
Response to Original message
30. Hell they want to outsource and privatize prisons, they don't care!
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