Why did traditional Christians not speak out against Bush Christians?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

Were they/are they afraid of something? Why aren't there huge websites by traditional Christians speaking out against the Bush Christians? Why aren't there gazillions of books by traditional Christians attacking the harm done by Bush Christians? Do traditional Christians secretly agree with the Bush Christians and enjoy their moment in the sun having abortion made illegal and gays attacked?

I wish I knew. I'd like to blame the media, but frankly I can't. I mean, where does one even find traditional Christians busy speaking out against Bush Christians? I know Jimmy Carter has spoken out about it a couple of times and published a book. Where are the rest of these trad Christians fighting Bush Christians? I don't know and the media doesn't either. Or maybe both, the media and I are unaware, and there are actually thousands upon thousands out there speaking out?

Somebody, please help me out here.

[shain from kane]

1. Too busy going to church? n/t

[wtmusic]

2. They did

http://www.pres-outlook.com/html/hunsinger012903.html

onedit: with a great quote from John Adams

"This is the established Order of Things, when a Nation has grown to such an height of Power as to become dangerous to Mankind, she never fails to loose her Wisdom, her Justice and her Moderation, and with these she never fails to loose her Power; which however returns again, if those Virtues return."

[Sarah Ibarruri]

6. An article few and far between is unperceived compared with....

mass quantities of books, publishings, websites, campaigns, TV presence, etc. by Bush Christians. What's the difference going on here?

[wtmusic]

8. money nt

[QC]

9. Yeah, but they didn't drop by Sarah's house to do it,

so it doesn't count.

[KittyWampus]

23. Snicker. Actually, we want to live and let live. Worship in privacy

and let others do same (or not) as they see fit.

But it certainly does seem time for an intervention, doesn't it :)

[tanyev]

3. They are out there, but they haven't been building a machine

finanaced by Scaife and Rev. Moon for the past two decades.

http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm

[GaYellowDawg]

4. Here's one link.

http://www.believersagainstbush.org/smokescreen.html">Believers Against Bush

[NanceGreggs]

5. It's a good question ...

... that doesn't seem to have any answer.

Where are the 'good Christians' who know that torture is against everything Christianity is supposed to stand for?

Where are the 'good Christians' who should be decrying tax cuts to the wealthy and to corporations at the expense of social safety-nets for the poor, the hungry, the homeless?

Where are the 'good Christians' who supposedly compelled by their religious beliefs to speak out against violence against anyone, no less violence against their fellow citizens who are gay?

Where ARE the 'good Christians'?

Where?

[Lerkfish]

21. right here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2486334

[FreedomAngel82]

30. You want to know the difference between a Pharassee and a good Christian?

We don't broadcast our actions and deads. We actually follow Jesus and his advice about being a Pharasiee. The true Christian's do things not for fame, fortune etc. So sorry we're not out there being a Pharaisee enough for you. It would go against what I believe. "Don't let your left hand see what your right hand is doing."

[NanceGreggs]

64. IMHO, there is a vast difference ...

... between 'not broadcasting actions and deeds' and standing up for what is right, what is just, what is Christian.

Were I to see true Christians speaking out against this Administration (which is supposedly representing them, as well as non-Christian Americans) on the issues of torture, secret prisons, enriching Big Business while ignoring the basic human needs of the poor, etc., I certainly would not view that as being done for 'fame and fortune'.

The life of Jesus, as set out in the New Testament, is an example of exacly that. Christ's teachings went totally against the grain of what were then the accepted political views of his time. And yet, he continued to preach and would not allow himself to be silenced.

I don't pretend to be a Biblical scholar, but the way I read the New Testament, I don't remember Jesus keeping his ideas to himself on the basis that he didn't want to 'seek fame and fortune'. He admonished his followers to be 'Fishers of Men', to spread The Word. Nowhere is he quoted as saying, "And if you see evil being done to your fellow man, keep your head down and your mouth shut."

[TallahasseeGrannie]

37. They are the 49 percent

voting democratic, that's where.

[beam me up scottie]

7. There are some christians who are trying

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=50331

As an atheist, I appreciate their effort.

[Swede]

10. You've joking,right?

Unless 50% of population of the USA ia suddenly athiest.

[RagingInMiami]

11. You don't speak out against the second coming of Jesus

I think they saw the war in Iraq as the beginning of the rapture

[TallahasseeGrannie]

39. Oh now wait a minute

I never even HEARD of the Rapture until those books came out, and I've been a Christian for almost 60 years. I doubt seriously that many liberal Christians believe in the Rapture, which is a doctrine that came out in the 19th century.

[Democrats_win]

12. Bush christians? Is that like Jumbo shrimp?

[iconoclastNYC]

13. ABORTION. SCHOOL PRAYER. GAY MARRIAGE.

Distractions, and mind control. Religion is all about control.

[FreedomAngel82]

31. Correction

Organized religion. Not my personal religious beliefs. Jesus could care less about school prayer (see the Pharasiee's again), gay marriage (never spoke about gays) or abortion.

[iconoclastNYC]

66. You can't distinquish between the two really.

Nobody comes up with the fairy tales on thier own. You are taught by someone who's been taught by organized religion at some point.

[doublethink]

14. Ya know ........

I've read my bible, over and over again .... and I think we need to change the name from Christian to something else? Have any ideas? Something to deal with the truth and what is in that book ..... or at least what is in that book. Peace. :)

[OhioBlue]

15. They are everywhere

they just don't have the propaganda machine in place that the "Evangelicals" do because they are true Christan's and not trying to use the Religion for their own personal advancement. They are the ones that organize meals on wheels at their church, or have a drive for a local family that has been through a tragedy. They're just not media whores with a political agenda like the Falwells of the Earth.

[keopeli]

16. Thanks for saying what I was thinking.

Traditional Christians, the majority, don't believe in mixing state with religion. At our church which is very progressive, it's very difficult to bring up politics in the context of worship and church functions because we welcome everyone, even scumbag Republicans (though they don't come...true conservatives are showing up more often at our church, though).

It is not the job of good Christians to govern the bad ones. Even still, there is a groundswell of good Christians now that is developing into a movement. These things take time - years. But, you can start with Jim Wallis' book, God's Politics: Why the Right Gets It Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get It. Jim addresses the groundswell of active progressive Christians.

I personally believe it will come from the burgeoning welcoming churches that include gays in their body.

[WoodrowFan]

24. plus

we tend to work within the Democratic Party a lot. Or did you think those folks putting up signs, ringing doorbells, passing out fliers, etc, were all non-believers? There are a hell of a lot of Democrats who ARE Democrats because we're Christian, and we think the republican "screw the poor" policies are as unChristian as can be....

[beam me up scottie]

17. HERE

http://www.talk2action.org/special/about_tta


Not all of the christians are there, obviously, but don't ignore the fact that many are indeed doing something.

Thanks to DUer Maat for providing the link.
All of us should check it out.

[adwon]

18. Maybe

because only right-wing fundamentalist wingnuts trumpet being "Christian" over being American?

Or maybe because they have real jobs?

[Charlie Brown]

19. This reminds me of the "why don't the Muslims condemn terrorism" line

Progressive Christians are doing all within their means to defy the current administration's brand of religion. Many of them were arrested back in December for protesting the budget.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/12/14/more_than_100_arrested_in_capitol_protest/

Many more have helped Cindy Sheehan and the anti-war movement gain momentum. Just a couple of weeks ago, the World Council of Churches took a bold stand against both the war and the US policies regarding poverty. Since you're determined to slam people you apparently know little about, may I ask if you have risked arrest to combat the administration?

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

34. You're incorrigible.

And silly! :P

[BrotherBuzz]

22. If a church speaks out and no one hears it, did it ever really happen?

The United Church of Christ (UCC) tried to get its message of tolerance on the airwaves by buying airtime. Their add was rejected by CBS and NBC. The commercial showed bouncers outside a church only letting "acceptable" people in while "rejects" stood aside. Their message was clear, "Jesus wouldn't turn people away."

"Because this commercial touches on the exclusion of gay couples and other minority groups by other individuals and organizations," reads an explanation from CBS, "and the fact the Executive Branch has recently proposed a Constitutional Amendment to define marriage as a union between a man and a woman, this spot is unacceptable for broadcast on the networks."

"It's ironic that after a political season awash in commercials based on fear and deception by both parties seen on all the major networks, an ad with a message of welcome and inclusion would be deemed too controversial," says the Rev. John H. Thomas, the UCC's general minister and president. "What's going on here?"

[OhioBlue]

27. They wouldn't let those commercials air

but Jimmy Swaggart can have an hour infomercial.....

[BrotherBuzz]

32. And Pat Robertson has daily access to the White House....

All those clowns need to do is sneeze and it's covered in the news. :shrug:

You know, Ronald Reagan opened this damn floodgate when he embraced the christian coalition back in the eighties. It's been festering ever since.

[FreedomAngel82]

33. Don't forget the church in California

They preached an anti-war message (no politics involved) and they had the IRS on their asses but yet none in Ohio who actually do involve politics.

[BrotherBuzz]

41. That was a Liberal church

That intolerant church was practicing discrimination because they have no conservatives in the congregation - what'd ya expect?

:sarcasm:

[0007]

45. Were the Christians churches that wanted to speak out muzzled

like the rest of us?

I believe they were! But what do I know?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

54. You're kidding me! Did the stations say why they rejected UCC's ads?

I hate the media and corporations more and more each day.

Oops, sorry. I see that the 2nd paragraph was the view of the stations, and not your view. God I hate corporations.

[BrotherBuzz]

56. Who 'ya gonna believe

"Because this commercial touches on the exclusion of gay couples...and the fact that the executive branch has recently proposed a Constitutional amendment to define marriage as a union between a man and a woman, this spot is unacceptable for broadcast," the church quoted CBS as saying.
A CBS spokesman confirmed that the ad was banned, but would not comment directly about the above statement. "It was against our policy of accepting advocacy advertising," said the spokesman. NBC did not immediately return calls seeking comment.

[BlackVelvet04]

25. Because one of the basic beliefs of traditional

Christians is "judge not".

What most Christians don't seem to realize is that they have things backwards....most will criticize anyone other than another Christian, yet Paul says that Christians are not to judge non-believers but should hold other believers accountable.

I was the first person in my circle of friends and family to speak out. It was damn unpopular and quite frankly was damn uncomfortable. When all of the Christians around you are in agreement it can create a lot of feelings because of wondering why it is you see things differently. I found out I was just ahead of the rest who are now speaking out, but at first I felt really isolated and out-of-step.

[FreedomAngel82]

38. Do you know where that Bible verse is?

[BlackVelvet04]

60. I just got your question and sent you the

reference for that verse.

ICorinthians 5: 9-13

[beam me up scottie]

44. Thanks.

I'm sure it was anything but easy.

It takes a lot of courage to do what you did.

[BlackVelvet04]

61. It was hard

but I was fortunate that the sister I'm closest to came to the same understanding shortly after I did so I had someone to talk to about it.

[Hardrada]

26. There aren't the Big League Theologians anymore

that used to be the liberal Xian spokespersons. No Paul Tillich, no William Sloane Coffin, no Bishop James Pike, no Albert Schweitzer, no big name philosophers either like Bertrand Russell or Jean Paul Sartre? I guess the deconstruction guys weren't interested. And the poets are gone: Allen Ginsberg, Robert Lowell, Denise Levertov and the others. There is still Maya Angelou of course but there used to be a amall galaxy and not just one or two bright stars. In music, the liberal Leonard Bernstein is long deceased. And John Lennon. Our culture, the European culture, has not been producing the people of real stature who from their commanding heights could be lights and beacons for our guidance. And we suffer severely because of this.

[FreedomAngel82]

28. There are a few sites

SoJourners, Christian Alliance and Interfaith Alliance. And just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it's not happening. I'm always doing it and I'm sure my other brothers and sisters of my faith are out there doing it too.

[joneschick]

29. we're about as traditional as you can get

http://www.homelandministries.org/DPF/
peace and justice work has been an important Disciples mission for many years.

[Catrina]

35. I wondered that also, and stopped going to my church after the election

mainly because I heard nothing, no condemnation of the torture, the war etc. Since the last Pope had spoken out against it, I wondered why there was not a huge outcry from the Churches ~

But George Bush's own Church did speak out, and I signed up with this Interfaith Group after they made a video featuring pastors, rabbis and other religious leaders, apologizing to the Iraqi people for the torture of their people, after the Abu Ghraib pictures were released.

The 'Apology' was shown in Iraq, as I recall, and I felt this should have been done by, first our government, but Bush couldn't get the words 'We apologize' out. Churches should have done so also.

I now receive emails every week from this group ~ here's one I received a few weeks ago, which addresses your question.



Justice For ALL
Don't Let The Religious Right Steal Your Voice

Dear Catrina:

Millions of Americans from all faith traditions are coming together to say "No" to the extreme religious politics of Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, and Tony Perkin's Family Research Council. This well funded and heavily promoted effort called "Justice Sunday III is an attempt by politically-aligned right-wing religious fundamentalists to pressure Congress to load the courts with ultra-conservative judges. They claim that the courts have been secretly “working... like thieves in the night, to rob us of our Christian heritage and our religious freedoms” simply by upholding the constitutional separation of church and state.

The event's coordinator recently said, "Next week, when Judge Alito's critics bore in on him with their questions on "separation of church and state," we want people to understand what they really mean is to push people of faith out of the public arena. When they grill Alito on "privacy rights," they are really referring to abortion-on-demand and the newly-minted "right" to commit sodomy."

Wait a minute. Can they be serious? Join us in our common-sense corner for a moment.

When laws that protect persons of all faiths are said to “rob us of our Christian heritage and our religious freedoms,” then all constitutional logic about religious freedom is being turned on its head. If they succeed in loading the court with judges who favor one religious perspective over others, then religious freedom in our nation truly will be compromised.


Congress must not hear only from religious fundamentalists. The rest of us deserve a hearing, too. You can help make that happen by signing FaithfulAmerica's Justice for ALL Petition below, which will be sent to your Senators in Washington.



Blessings to you as ever,



Vince Isner and your www.FaithfulAmerica.org Team

However, they are not funded the same way the Christian Right is funded. But they address all the issues that should be of concern to REAL followers of Christ's teaching ~

I think most ordinary Christians paid no attention to the TV Evangelicals and the fundies, believing that they had a right to their beliefs. By the time it became obvious that they were influencing politics, it was a bit late. But now, more and more Christians are speaking out against them. There should be a huge pushback of these phonies, imo. For me, this group was the first one I found that even addressed the seriousness of the rise of Fundamentalism and their attempts to tell all of us what we should or should not believe.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

36. The reason is so evident it would bite you if it were a snake

We don't speak out because we mind our own spiritual business and tend to our own spiritual lives. Unlike our fundamentalist brethren who have no such compunction, which is how they have become politicized. We have no need for that in our lives. If we did, we'd be...fundamentalists.

[DemGirl7]

40. The REAL christians are there and complaining but...

its the fundies like Falwell, Dobson, Robertson and such that have the microphone, and tons of funding to back them up. The REAL Christians are just in the background, trying to yell out their complaints but are drowned out, or ignored.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

42. They know their place in the political landscape?

[mom cat]

43. And why did not traditional Christians speak out against Hitler?

[BrotherBuzz]

48. Barman Declaration?

Karl Barth? Dietrich Bonhoeffer?

[mom cat]

55. Yes, there were some noticeable exceptions, but where were most

of the Christians then and now?

[BrotherBuzz]

58. Back then they were called German Christians

German Christians were not the meek, humble followers of some Jewish messiah, some suffering servant, but the proud followers of Christ the conqueror. Their champions were not "the crucified Christ" but "King Christ and the Fuehrer.


Sound familiar?

[SPKrazy]

46. There are books, there are web sites, there are speakers out

the media just doesn't pay attention to them

the fundies get more press because they are more interesting I guess.

They are always looking for someone to attack

As you may recall GWB's own church wrote an open letter condemning the Iraq war.

There are lots of web sites for liberal Christians

There are many books, although there could be more, about this

Don't blame Christianity for the loonies that claim to be Christians please,

[upi402]

50. the media wants to create more zealots and fanatics -it seems

[SPKrazy]

47. And Additionally, It Is Not My Job As A Christian To Police

the beliefs of other Christians

I do my job of working on liberal issues.

through campaigns

letter writing

my professional organization

community

and through my Church

but I'm not responsible for the Bush Christians anymore than the moderate Muslims are responsible for the Osama bin Ladens of the world.

We aren't!

[upi402]

49. many here did

i was probably anti-christian due to feeling repressed and exploited by christians not warranting that position of power nor judgment.
i'm sorry if i made any true christians feel badly, i just push back at all opportunities anymore. not like i didn't shut my mouth and walk on eggshells for years. it probably was my personal small part in enabling the jesus tali ban's take over.

[fishwax]

51. you mean people like John Kerry?

:shrug:

[believerinchrist]

52. Unless you have a name or platform,

it is extrememly difficult to get anything published in the Christian world today. Most magazines and book publishers have their own set doctrines and do not consider anything outside of their statements of beliefs.

[newyawker99]

65. Hi believerinchrist!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[opihimoimoi]

53. They are ashamed and embarrassed...hanging their head in dispair

Knowing full well they had a part in getting this dude into office...Now its NUKES for Mangos...In addition, they been teased no end.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

57. Thank you for giving me hope

I had begun to think the only true Christian around was Jimmy Carter. I also think it's great that true Christians are speaking out against the Bush Christians. It's important.

When Reagan got voted in and the right wing extremist Christian American females and GOP females began promoting ideas that were harmful to American women, I realized that as a woman if I didn't speak out against them, who would? Someone had to counteract them, so I talked openly against these so-called females, and haven't stopped talking since.

It's good to know that there are true Christians out there speaking out against faux Christians.

[Breeze54]

59. "Google is your friend..." --- lmao

From SOJOURNERS:
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=sojomail.display&issue=060119#4
Are Catholics and Evangelicals cut from the same cloth?
by David Batstone

Wheaton College pulled a shocker last spring by terminating the teaching contract
of a professor following his conversion to Catholicism. Though popular among students
and highly respected by his peers, The Wall Street Journal reported, assistant professor
Joshua Hochschild became controversial once he shifted theological camps.

SNIP-->
In the church of my childhood - a staunch evangelical church in central Illinois,
just a few hours drive from Wheaton - Catholics were not considered to be Christians. :wtf:
I was taught in Sunday School that Catholics did not read the Bible and elevated Mary
the mother of Jesus into a fourth place in the Trinity. Worse yet, we learned that
Catholics did not believe Jesus died once and for all for our sins;
he had to repeat the act every time the Catholics took Holy Communion.
:rofl:

My understanding of Catholics changed when I began working in ministry in
poor communities first in the United States, and then Latin America.
I met Catholics who loved to read the Bible and faithfully explore its message
for their lives. On many occasions, I was humbled by their sacrificial quest
to follow the path of Jesus. <--SNIP

ACTION ALERTS AT SOJOURNERS:
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=action.alert_archive
1)Support a Bipartisan Plan to End the War
2)Tell recruiters: leave my child alone!
3)Stop the Darfur Genocide
4)Say no to death squads in Iraq
5)Tell Congress: Don't pass a morally bankrupt budget!
6)Oppose the nomination of Alberto Gonzales!
7)God is not a Republican. Or a Democrat.
8)Tell Jimmy Swaggart to love his neighbors

9)Bush Campaign Says "Liberals Will Ban the Bible
Tell Bush and the RNC to apologize for the
political manipulation of Christian voters.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That's just a small sampling...Where have YOU been?
:shrug:

[stray cat]

62. Like the Dems - less organized than their organized counterparts

[Toots]

63. Bush*'s own Methodist minister was refused entrance to the Whitehouse

because he was against the Iraqi Invasion. Bush* is as much Christian as I am Chinese

[The Straight Story]

67. Why should they attack them that much?

First off I don't see them, nor know anyone else personally who sees them, as 'bush' christians.

Just like dems christians have a big tent - from orthodox to liberal, from catholic to methodist, and a lot of flavors in between.

They have core beliefs which revolve around the same basic concepts but from there go all over the place. The idea is not so much to sit around attacking every other group of christians (though the baptists do this a lot with catholics, 7th day against most the others, and so on) but to present your views and beliefs in such a way that others will see them as 'correct' - again, much like politics.

One could ask why dems only seem to attack dems on here and are not out making websites, vidoes, or writing books attacking fellow democrats - maybe that is because we already have enough people doing that for us.