So a little counter with a fundie freeper today

[noahmijo]

I had to wait in line at the DMV today-a very LONG one.

A couple of people were going around with clipboards which had petitions.

When my gf and I were approached I happily signed the following petitions:

-Increase the minimum wage to $6,25-here in Az it's only $5.75 and being that Tucson is becoming as expensive as Anaheim I support ANY sort of wage increase measure

-Like the state of Oregon have ballots mailed to every registered voter-keep diebold out of Az by having mail in ballots corner the market why not?

-Early start programs for young children always good

-Conservation of land in Az-sorry don't think it's right to sell off our land so California can build a power plant on it-no offense Californians it's the greedy bastards in both our states I want to stifle not the people.

Then we got to the "preservation of marriage" one

I just had to ask the lady with all these great progressive measures why are you pushing this bigoted measure?

she said "Well it's not bigoted as Christians we feel this measure is imporant to ensure our state remains moral"

I said "Well these other petitions you have here surely will help our state with that, but this one here does nothing but tell a group of humans that they are second class citizens not worthy of the same rights as other people. Not to mention if this is a 'christian' measure then it should be illegal as religion has no place in our government as stated by the 1st amendment.

Secondly if it is your christian religion that is reinforcing this issue with you, then why aren't you passing around a petition to ban football?"

She says "Excuse me?"

I said "Well I believe it's in Exodus but the bible does state clearly that touching the skin of a pig makes one unclean. Do you know anybody that works on Sundays? I do. They are good people who struggle to feed their children which is why they work 7 days a week and 2 jobs-but you see that means they work on the day of the sabbath. Now if the bible's law gets thrown into the mix here does that means these people I know, law abiding people, should be jailed and/or stoned to death for not properly observing The Sabbath?"

Then I just said: "You are a bigot pure and simple, you have no interest in bringing any moral values to this state or the people, you are one of these types that has to stick her fucking nose in other people's business because you have issues with your own life that apparently can only be remedied by creating this fictional world where certain people lower than you on the social ladder. If you call yourself a Christian I am proud to say that I am not one. Keep up the good work with the other petitions though."



That was the end of that conversation, just another day of doing my part to piss off the religious right.

[beam me up scottie]

1. !

[blue cat]

2. Thank you ! n/t

[ristruck]

3. Friendly advice

You make very logical points until you incorrectly start applying the Bible. This makes you seem a bit kooky. Perhaps this is what you were aiming for....

[beam me up scottie]

8. How else does one talk to an idiot?

You act like we're dealing with reasonable people.

[pk_du]

10. I dont think mis-quoting the actual book the reference comes from

makes the argument invalid or weakened.

...the reference is actually in Leviticus - but like a lot of the OT ( esp. Leviticus) , even Jerry Falwell would have a hard time arguing it should be applied today.

Lev. 11:6-8 “6 The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you. 7 And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. 8 You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.”

[FreedomAngel82]

40. Right the thing with these people

is they use the Old Testament. There are a few verses in the NT but not Jesus. So if they're going to quote the Old Testament where it concerns gay people than you have to play them at their game. And I'm a Christian and I do that all the time.

[ArbustoBuster]

17. How is it improperly applied?

I admit that I'm an atheist, so I'm something of an outsider, but Leviticus chapter 11 verses seven and eight look pretty much on point: "And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you. Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you."

I'm sure people can explain this away - and they probably have, since they've had three thousand years to think about it - but once you start interpreting the Bible it's only a hop a skip and a jump away from pure anarchy, according to the Fundies.

[FreedomAngel82]

43. I guess it depends on who you're talking to

I as a Christian do not follow the Old Testament. It's nothing more than a history book to the faith and how things came about to Jesus. I follow the New Testament and Jesus but the thing I've noticed is people who are against gay marriage and all that they use the old testament for their refrences. So than you have to play them at their game. Ask them about slavery because numerous places throughout the Bible say slavery is acceptable: just not too mean. And if a person is being a slave to make up a debt you're to relase them after seven years etc.

[Evergreen Emerald]

4. That. Was awesome!

I love it when the truth is spoken!

[Drum]

5. You sound like a pro at it!

Thanks for representin'!

[Mythsaje]

6. Way to misbehave! n/t

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mythsaje]

13. People who are trying to marginalize

segments of society en masse are only due a certain amount of tolerance. Tolerance is a two-way street.

Wasn't it Ghandi who said "The only thing I cannot tolerate is intolerance?"

Or something to that effect.

[xchrom]

18. i'm a christian too.

and let me tell you -- i'ld have said a lot worse.

i will NOT be hounded and persecuted any more in the name of a perverted version of christianity.

they might get to pass ''their'' laws -- but i don't have to shut up.

the poster nailed it when classifying the ''christians'' as people who need a class of citizens to dump their hatred on -- and it not liberal or progressive to accept that or tolerate that -- at all.

[beam me up scottie]

22. You said it.

Their religious beliefs stop being their business when they use them to threaten the rights and freedoms of others.

And anyone who defends them for doing just that is no ally or "friend" of mine.

If they kept it personal, we could care less.

[noahmijo]

38. You nailed it in understanding my point

I don't condemn followers of Christ. To me you can be a follower of Christ and not have to adhere to the institution of Christianity as we know it. I do condemn those who adhere to the crooked institutions of organized religion and stand idly by as their leaders order them to denounce other human beings because of choices they make which affect no one but themselves.

Personally I was raised Catholic I call myself a Catholic but I have no reservations whatsoever in condeming the institution where it passes judgement on women, gays and whores itself out to the moneylenders.

[SammyBlue]

66. Why don't they ever try this shit with me, Noah?

Yes, I'm 6'2" and a built like a tank.

I would have been up one side of this person and down the other. I would have made them cry!

Morals? Christian morals?

I'm Jewish, asshole!!! Why the fuck should I care about your G-d damn morals!!! Why are you working on the 7th day of week anyway? Saturday is the sabbath!!! Friday Night to Saturday Night. Sunday is Day 1 in the book of Genesis!!!

It's called Sunday because on the first day, G-d created light!!! And the Sun provides that!

[noahmijo]

69. Because man if they only tried it with you

they'd melt too fast and soon there'd be none left for me to prod with the poker.

[mr blur]

19. Well,

"Do they not have the right to have a religious view without being ridiculed?"

Nope. Next!

[OhioBlue]

27. Personally, I wouldn't have gone for such

a harsh response, - I agree with you that we probably won't win anyone over on the issue with this approach...

However, I have to give the OP credit for standing up for their principles. We do promote tolerance and do accept many different views, however... The marriage proposals are nothing but scapegoating techniques and they have to be shot down. There is a quote I think by Ellie Wiesel that goes something like, true evil happens when good people do nothing...

So, if the right wants to stick to their talking point that I am intolerant for not tolerating hate and scape goating, then so be it. I would rather be called that then one who does nothing in the face of hate.

[FreedomAngel82]

47. And also don't forget

"your rights end where my nose begins." So if you're doing something to take away someone else's rights as a person than that is NOT tolerance. That is bigotry and a self-rightous attitude.

[Tsiyu]

31. They can hold their own view

based on religious principles, but they are control freaks and wackjobs when they expect everyone ELSE to follow their religious views.

Separation of church and state anyone? These people are dangerous to our nation and the OP is a hero for standing up to them.

Your comments are interesting, as is your question. Here's a question for you: Are YOU forcing YOUR religius beliefs on others? If not, why are you worried?

[noahmijo]

36. You offer me bigotery I offer nastiness

I don't expect these people to see my point of view. I expect these people to get the treatment they deserve and there is NO excuse for being a bigot.

The major reason I have little to no respect for religion and for "Christians" like you is because you do little to stand up to people like this woman I spoke to today.

If anything it is people who stand by complacent masking it in the name of "tolerance" that are the reason why so many vile acts have been committed in the name of religion over the last thousand years.

[FreedomAngel82]

44. So tell me this

why am I more important to people because I'm white, straight and also a Christian? Wasn't it Jesus who said "Love thy neighbor as thy self"?

[SammyBlue]

51. I know Noah personally. . .he's nothing that you say

You sound insecure in your own political beliefs!

[SammyBlue]

58. FLAME AWAY AND BAN THIS FREEPTARD!!!!!!!!!

This guys screams Freeper!!!!

[Greyhound]

70. "Do they not have the right to have a religious view without being

ridiculed?"

Not when they are flat out wrong. Leaving the unclean pig argument aside, the other point, about working on the sabbath is one of the Big Ten, no arguing that, it is very clear and provides for no exceptions. I wouldn't mind you religious types nearly as much if you'd just stick to your rules. There is nothing in the rule book that says you can follow this one, but don't have to follow that one if it's inconvenient.

So how about an alternative to calling the OP "an arrogant and nasty person" (score another point for the Xtians), how about addressing the real issue of an intolerant minority's attempt to impose its perverse belief on others, against their will, through threat of violence ("force of law" means just that). Marriage is one of the many issues that our government has no business being involved in, one way of the other.

Another point, it is not that "anyone who holds a religious view is the 'religious right'", it is just Xtians. All the other major religions seem to do just fine keeping their beliefs and customs to themselves, it is only the Xtians that are compelled to force their belief on everyone else.

[Fridays Child]

7. Yay, Noah! Was this at the DMV...

...on Broadmont? Anyway, GOOD FOR YOU!

[noahmijo]

41. Yep that was the one!...were you in that horrific line????

[SammyBlue]

60. Why the hell were you at the DMV at Broadmont???

You stood online at that custerfuck??? Jesus Holy Christ, you earned your place in heaven, dude!

[noahmijo]

65. LoL it's the only damn DMV open on freakin Saturday in this town!

I got my gf on my car insurance and they told me I had to put her on my registration. Turns out that was bogus I got everything straightened out...but dammit that line sucked and the freeper incident didn't help matters much.

[Fridays Child]

71. Thankfully, no. I try to get all that stuff done online.

But I guess, for some things, you still have to show up, in person. Dragola, huh.

[Q3JR4]

9. Yay!

If you're ever in Idaho, give me a call, I'll buy you the drink of your choice!

[pk_du]

12. This reminded me of a great anti-Fundie email circulated

about the book of Leviticus in theOld testament ( and great retort - BTW)

http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/Leviticus1.html

Dear Friend,

Thanks very much for reminding me that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states that homosexuality is an abomination. I would like some further advice, however, regarding some other laws and how to best follow them:

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1 ). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as suggested in Exodus 21 . In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus (Ex 35:2) clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, and if so, how should I do that?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Leviticus 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or are correctable defects in vision excluded from the aforementioned proscription.?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Leviticus 19:27. How should they die?

I know from Leviticus 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

My uncle has a farm on which he violates Leviticus 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field. His wife likewise violates Leviticus by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (a cotton/polyester blend). Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Leviticus 24:10-16). Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws (Leviticus 20:14)?

Thanks very much for your help, and thanks again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

[ristruck]

15. Not wanting to fight with new friends here so

I will simply say that whether you like it or not the New Testament does have many strong statements about Homosexuality. It is not just the OT as your article would suggest. I will refrain from entering into a theological debate but will say that the Bible is not inconsistent and not as simple as some believe.

[Horse with no Name]

20. Really?

No argument but please state chapter and verse so that I can look them up.
My New Testament teaches tolerance and forgiveness--or perhaps it is just left up to interpretation and that is how I interpret it.

[libnnc]

24. Are you a Christian or a Paulist?

As far as I know, Christ never said a word about homosexuality.

Paul on the other hand, had *issues*.

I'd take Christ's word over Paul's any day.

[ristruck]

26. Wow

As a new guy here I will stand down because this is not the fight I signed up here to fight. I stand with all of you in my opposition to everything this administration stands for and I want a better future for my children. I truly believe that the progressive movement represents my beliefs and the beliefs I see in the Bible more than the cheesy and false brand that you guys obviously hate.

We agree more than you think.

As to understanding the Bible, Jesus proclaimed Himself to be God over and over in the Bible. God says of His word in the Bible that it is in fact His word. Paul was an Apostle and ALL of church history recognized him as such. Again, I know it is not popular but Paul's words in the Bible are the inspired words of God.

Now, do I think that the government should be in the business of morality. No. The point on divorce makes that case the best.

My main point in this thread is that the people who get me to think the most are the ones who make a reasoned case and allow me my space. I have held wrong opinions and I shamefully voted for Bush. It has been my friends who I respect greatly who have helped me to see how naive and wrong these votes were. Not once have they belittled me or made me feel like their enemy.

If we are to win this battle and make positive change I simply advocate that we do so with grace, class, and reasoned arguments.

I am done. This is not my main battle here. I have no right to argue too much since I have stated that I have been humbled by how wrong I was to be duped by these liars we call the administration.

Thanks;

[libnnc]

29. You believe Paul's words are the inspired words of God.

How do you know that for sure? Because Paul himself said so? Doesn't make any sense to me. Belief and truth are two totally different things. You jumped into this conversation. No one forced you.

[OhioBlue]

34. the people who get me to think most

are the ones who make reasoned case and allow me my space. I agree. If someone lashes out at me I usually turn them off. You will find a great deal of differing opinions on DU and people are often skeptical of a poster with a low number of posts.

I think you are right - we do have a great deal in common. One point of advice, we can tolerate differing views and differing religious views, however, when someone states something as fact b/c it is from the Bible, I don't see it as a valid argument. I don't have a problem with a person's beliefs as long as they don't try to force them on others.

Gay people aren't trying to force others into Gay marriage - they are only fighting for the right to hold the same legal status as heterosexual couples.

[FreedomAngel82]

55. But Paul nor Jesus have any say in society

Only the church itself. A person who is a non-believer will not give a rats ass about the Bible and what it says. Same thing with other religions.

[FreedomAngel82]

53. And in the end

Christ is the head of the Church. Not Paul. Paul does have authority but Jesus is the head and in the end should have the final say. So this is why I personally am for gay marriage. First of all Jesus never said anything about it either way (if he did the Catholic Church would have for sure kept that in there like in the OT and the other places in the NT!) and the apostoles only have authority over the church. They don't have any say in society. That would be like the Jews or Muslims going around expecting us to follow their ways whether you're of that particular religion or not. And I bet you that lots of conservative Christian's would be raising hell if that happened.

[FreedomAngel82]

49. But you're forgetting one simple fact

Paul or any other apostloe only has authority over THE CHURCH. NOT SOCIETY. So if a Church doesn't want gay people involved or to marry gay people that's their right, but they have NO authority over society. "Give that which is Ceaser's unto Ceaser and that which is God's unto God."

[RB TexLa]

14. Does show some common ground though

A friend of mine who prays the rosary for an end to abortion everyday I think, is also at a homeless shelter cooking and feeding people all the time, and held a prayer vigil outside her congressman's local office when he supported the $700M cut in the food programs.

[noahmijo]

52. It's all in the nuance too..who WOULDN'T an end to abortion

abortion is an ugly thing. I don't know any woman who has had one and has been proud or thrilled about it.

But sometimes a woman is raped, sometimes a mistake is made it is realized that a child will suffer from the parent's inability to properly care for the child.

Before I trust the sincerity of any of these people who focus on praying for abortion to end I want to see them praying for the end of state justified murder, wars, and a demand to companies like Wal-Mart to stop screwing over hardworking mothers in the name of greed.

[Skidmore]

16. You should have asked her about banning divorce.

Bible forbids that too.

[RB TexLa]

23. Or just have the divorce law go by this

If you are going to bring a church marriage to the state and want it recognized, then when you want a divorce bring us the annulment or divorce decree from the church.

[Horse with no Name]

25. Most excellent point!

Sanctity of Divorce (SOD)
Has a nice ring to it--don't you think?

[noahmijo]

39. Actually my girlfriend brought that up to me when the woman left

and I properly kicked myself for it

[FreedomAngel82]

57. That's what I do

I ask them why isn't divorce illegal if we are such the Christian we say we are. Jesus did talk about divorce and adultery but yet that's legal. So why aren't they working on getting that illegal?

[SammyBlue]

68. No where in the Bible does it say "From Death Do you part."

Jews (older religion than Christianity) allow divorce!

[Vinca]

21. That was great!

I might have told her I crushed embryos for sport just for the reaction. Next time.

[Catherine Vincent]

28. That was very good!

[ThatsMyBarack]

30. I would have said:

If you're against gay marriages, then don't have one!!

[immoderate]

32. Sounds like a "wolf in sheep's clothing."

Hits you with progressive petitions (which she could conveniently "lose") and then slips you the old sanctity of marriage paper which is a keeper. Funny that she saved that one for last.

--IMM

[xchrom]

33. i just wanted to make sure i said thanks -- beautifully done.

like the other poster -- you have to wonder if the other measure were the horse hiding the greeks.

in which case -- busted.

[merbex]

35. Bravo! You came across as informed and as a generous citizen

who is willing to stand up for those who have no voice or for those who would be marginalized by others

Good job

[FreedomAngel82]

37. Good job!

And I always bring up how Jesus never mentioned gay people one way or the other. So why should it be of my concern? And Paul and the other apostles only have authority over the church. Not society.

[noahmijo]

46. I recall stories of Jesus embracing those who were marginalized by society

like lepers and the poor. I have no doubts that Jesus would've embraced gays.

Now people like Dick Cheney....I dunno he would've probably treated him like he treated King Herrod

[Cleita]

54. So maybe Jesus was gay.

He never married nor had children. He lived with his mother until he was thirty. His favorte apostle was his "beloved John". His friends were marginal people, who lived on the fringe of society, because he probably was an outsider himself. Just food for thought.

[noahmijo]

64. Well whether he was real or a myth regardless of what turned him on

I'd invite him to chill with me at a hockey game anytime. He was a real stand up guy.

[FreedomAngel82]

61. LOL

Oh and prostitues as well. Remember the woman at the well.

[Cleita]

56. Yes and they also made it very clear that his kingdom was

in Heaven, not on earth.

[FreedomAngel82]

62. Exactly

He told to put your treasures in heaven and not on Earth. These people worry too much about that.

[proud patriot]

42. Well done

[Greyhound]

45. K&R

[SammyBlue]

48. Noah. . .that is why I love you, buddy

John Wood and I were talking about you at Congress. How have you been?

[noahmijo]

59. Working bro, 5 days a week and I'm moving next weekend

Just movin to 1st and River not outta state or anything.

I miss youse guys man, I was gonna ask John to help me move in return for food, booze and broads (just kiddin about the booze part)

I could always use an extra hand if you're not doing anything next weekend, but I know you're always busy making the world a better place.

I'm actually probably going to call John right now and see what he's up to.

Lemme know what's goin on with the Latas campaign man as soon as I get settled in I'm going to start getting more involved.

Take care

[SammyBlue]

63. I'm going to Penasco for 6 days next weekend

I need a vacation.

Working full time, Master's Degree student full time and the Latas campaign as much as I can.

Oh, I'm going in for rotator cuff surgery in June too.

Yeah, we could use another attack dog like John and me on the campaign! I want to nail two certain queens to the wall. . .namely a former Republican DLC tire queen and a former MSM television queen who doesn't even live in CD #8!!!

[noahmijo]

67. I'm going to get some more info on Latas see what I can do in the future

I've been to his site his platform feels like the three of us wrote it (albeit the parts where we would've written "these rat bastards are crooks")

I guess so far you and John are the ones that really influence what Latas says in his speeches or platform presentations.

I'll see what I can contribute for you guys over the next week or so via email and stuff as right now even as we speak my ass should be packing and making calls ect but I'm just too damn tired and burnt out-sounds like you've been burning the candle at both ends too though. Hope you have a good vacation no doubt no one's earned it more.

[judaspriestess]

50. Thanks for telling this person

what you did. I immediately thought that was her main agenda to save the sanctity of marriage.
All the other petitions are just a front to get you to sign everything.

If this is the case, how sad that these people claim to be "religious" but have to resort to being deceitful.