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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:36 PM
Original message
Mark My Words: There Is Only ONE Issue That's Going to Matter in 2008! >>>
Edited on Sat Mar-04-06 12:55 PM by Stephanie




CLIMATE CHANGE. GLOBAL WARMING.

Friends who have known me online for four or five years will attest, I have clued in to certain key issues such as electronic voting, PNAC, Plame, and other stories, way ahead of everyone else.

I am telling you now, we have less than ten years to reverse the trend and save the planet. In 2008 there will be only eight years left, if that. This issue is URGENT. URGENT. Nothing else matters! Realize this and act accordingly.

I almost can't even talk about this I find it so frightening. But sadly, I tell you: Mark My Words.




------------------------------------------------------------------------

Video from last night's report on NBC Nightly News - link is in the column on the right on this page, the story about Antarctica >

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032118 /



------------------------------------------------------------------------




http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20060302/sc_space/antarct...

Antarctica Losing Ice, Contrary to Expectations

Robert Roy Britt
LiveScience Managing Editor
LiveScience.com Thu Mar 2, 3:01 PM ET

Joining the growing list of places on this planet that are melting, Antarctica is losing some 36 cubic miles of ice every year, scientists said today.

For comparison, Los Angeles consumes roughly 1 cubic mile of fresh water a year.

The south polar region holds 90 percent of Earths ice and 70 percent of the total fresh water on the planet, so any significant pace of melting there is important and could contribute to an already rising sea.

"This is the first study to indicate the total mass balance of the Antarctic ice sheet is in significant decline," said Isabella Velicogna of the University of Colorado at Boulder.







http://www.newsday.com/news/health/la-sci-warming3mar03...

Health/Science
From the Los Angeles Times

Antarctica Cannot Replace Ice Loss
Study finds continent is shrinking faster than it can grow. Experts say changes to the global water cycle could hasten the pace of sea-level rise.

By Robert Lee Hotz
Times Staff Writer

March 3, 2006

The ice sheets of Antarctica the world's largest reservoir of fresh water are shrinking faster than new snow can fall, scientists reported Thursday in the first comprehensive satellite survey of the entire continent.

Researchers at the University of Colorado determined that between 2002 and 2005 Antarctica lost ice at a rate of 36 cubic miles a year, rather than growing from heavier snowfalls as had been predicted. That amount of ice is equivalent to about 30 times the fresh water used by Los Angeles every year.

"It is the first time we can say that if you look at the entire ice sheet, it is losing mass," said geophysicist Isabella Velicogna, whose findings were published online Thursday by the journal Science.

This month, an independent research team at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in La Caada Flintridge reported that the Arctic glaciers of Greenland were melting twice as fast as five years ago, adding an extra 38 cubic miles of fresh water to the Atlantic Ocean every year.





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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. Unless an economic
jolt occurs first.
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susu369 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Here's an ominous article
When $8.18 Trillion Isn't Enough

Yesterday, Treasury officials told Senate aides that without an increase in the nation's $8.18 trillion debt limit, the government "would default on obligations for the first time in history sometime during the week of March 20." The Senate will have to take up the issue soon since "federal default is considered unimaginable because it would rattle bond markets, force interest rates higher and shake the economy."

http://www.americanprogressaction.org/site/apps/nl/news...

====
March 20th - awfully close to "beware the Ides of March."
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. it will be passed
but imagine the exploding size of the interest on the debt - imagine a govt that can do nothing but service that interest (as in there is no money for funding anything else). I believe I read that the size of the debt has increased 40% under bushjr.

But that is a long term structural problem. The short term problems has to do with the national debt (someone has to buy it to fund it), the level of corporate debts, of financial sector debt, consumer debt, etc. - A tremor on anyfront could bring a whole lot of pain throughout the economy.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. BEWARE THE IDES OF MARCH!!!
Or Iranian Brse of March, whichever suits you. :hide:
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Frightening era bush has shepherded us into
isn't it?
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #9
67. Gee, could it be coincidink that the Fed Reserve isn't going to publish
the M3 Supply Index anymore after March 26th? :shrug:

Seriously....there are a lot of scary indicators that have me thinking that there is some major sh*t about to hit economically....

Am I alone here? :eyes:
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #67
82. Errraaa...
Nope. :hide:
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susu369 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Thanks for your interesting reply
I will admit my navet with economic matters; however, I can imagine serious storm clouds ahead with both the environment and the deficit.

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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. The debt is said to be 10% of our income.
That's not terribly bad.

My debt used to be 60% of my income. Now, after 4 years, it's down to 20%.

I've made some sacrifices and will shortly make more so I **can** pay it off.

If I can fix my problem. So can the government.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. not if the govt doesn't choose to do anything to fix it,
but rather seems intent on accelerating the problem.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. The problem is a lot worse than you suggest
because so much of the budget is fixed. We're COMMITTED to paying so much SocSec, so much interest, so much in military & other pensions, etc. that at the end, discretionary spending is actually a very small part of the budget, so that 10% debt looms immensely large & the only places you can cut are soc services, maintenance of infrastructure, etc.--exactly the places that will really hurt people.
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Iowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #25
56. We'll see more of the cuts you mention...
There will also be tax increases. There is no way out of this without tax increases.
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #17
32. Not sure where you got those numbers, HypnoToad.
Here's the real story:

In 2004 the net receipts (income) of the federal government totaled $1.88 trillion.

In 2004 the total national debt was $7.38 trillion.

You see that the national debt is 4 times the national income, i.e. 400% of our income, not the 10% you suggest.

In 2004 we paid $322 billion in interest on the national debt. That was, roughly, 17% of our national income spent simply servicing the national debt.

Our debt problem is, perhaps, more serious than you think.

-Laelth


All data from the World Almanac 2005.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #32
53. Laeth, consider who receives the majority of that interest pmt
You say $322 billion nationally is paid out as interest on debts incurred in previous years. Consider who owns most of the U.S. treasury bonds. Not you, not I. Not our democratically "elected" representatives. Instead, treasury bonds are owned by a thin sliver of the U.S. monied elite, their peers around the globe, and by foreign governments.

As for the U.S. monied elite, the incredibly generous Bush tax cuts enabled them to snap up Treasury Bonds to lock in their future financial security, but on the backs of the many of us not so lucky.

So that $322 billion collected from you and I flows to a fortunate few. The same "few" who made out like bandits during the Reagan-GHWB years, and make out like bandits again during the GWB years. It is a transfer of wealth from the many to the few, with a side complication of selling our future soveriegnty to foreign governments (whom we'll have to check with in the future to keep them playing nice with us, unless we choose to "pre-emptively" invade them instead).
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
52. Sure the "government" can fix the problem...
...but that is the problem. When it comes time to pay back the principal collected from the working man as social security surplus, our Republithug contingent will say we need to tighten our belts, do with less, pay down our debts. The taxes not collected today from the top 20% of our population will be long spent while the rest of us are left holding the bag, paying interest on deficits incurred to fight unnecessary (and illegal) wars, paying interest on debt now incurred so our bosses can keep more of their current income and spend it on themselves. What an awful choice Bush has made. It will diminish the quality of life of so many of us.

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TheModernTerrorist Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #7
63. wow
a government that acts, essentially, like it's own citizens, whom were forced to do so due to....SUPRISE!, THE GOVT.!




so now the govt is paying nothing but interest, while Americans are paying nothing but interest, because they can't survive in this country any other way...


...that's nothing but sad and pathetic :-(
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
84. March 20 is the birthday of someone very dear to me.
I will tell him/her s/he gets the fall of the USA as a birthday gift.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. A phrase leaps to mind that perfectly describes the situation:
"Earth in the Balance."

If you're right, I have a suggestion for whom we should run in 2008.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. absolutely
without a doubt
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
80. Didn't he already win a presidential election?
YES!!! I would strongly support Al Gore for president. :patriot:
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. Uh, no.
Edited on Sat Mar-04-06 12:50 PM by 1932
There's only one issue that's going to matter, and that's what kind of democracy we're going to have? Whether it's one where a few powerful people make all the decisions (which all inevitably result in their increasing power) or whether we have one where we start making choices which make sense for all americans.

Issues like global warming definitely are a part of this bigger, broader issue, but if Democrats run on single issues and people have no understanding of the frame within which these single issues exist, Democrats are going to lose.

Read George Lakoff if, after reading this post, you think I'm wrong.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. hmmmm... consider them marked
:kick:
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AwareOne Donating Member (319 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
8. It SHOULD be the biggest issue, however
it's more likely to be gay marriage, gay adoption,abortion, same old right wing issues to bring the fundies out to vote. "Look over here folks, nothing to see over there". They are experts at slight of hand.
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ladjf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
11. Probably true. All the more reason why America should draft
Gore for President. He is way ahead of the other leaders on the topic.
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cally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
13. I agree, I think this is why they couldn't let Gore be President
It will require drastic economic changes and Gore forsaw this. The economic powers couldn't let him take office. The night the junta was insalled, I knew it was about global warming.


K & R

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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 04:08 AM
Response to Reply #13
68. They knew about Peak Oil too, but instead the only thing they could think
of was "Let's ride this opportunity to make money off of this all the way"....

President Gore would have never allowed that....President Gore never would have invaded Iraq and allowed the Pentagon Budget to grow out of control....

PS: The Pentagon studies on chaos and riots and panic following famine, drought etc. from Global Climate Change etc. is not coincidink... :eyes:
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
14. The Fundies, Swiftbots, Minutemen,& other wingnuts will go to their graves
Edited on Sat Mar-04-06 01:30 PM by UTUSN
They will go to their global warming grave decrying the end o'th'world on the basis of their anti-Choice/illegals/peace/minorities bandstands. It is more important to them that a woman not control her body or 2 Gays not be married or that vets who were anti-Vietnam be fragged ---than for global warming or anything else of substance be discussed.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #14
38. Also, since when did real issues matter in campaigns? Think Shrub/2000
Edited on Sat Mar-04-06 08:16 PM by UTUSN
He has carried out what he said he didn't believe in (ATTEPMPT at nation building, for starters) and not carried out what he supposedly did believe.

Campaign 2000 was about GORE's wardrobe. Campaign 2004 was about KERRY's personal military record, although it might be more legitimate to discuss Shrub's, which was, of course, off limits a second time.

While Poppy DECIMATED Massachusetts and DUKAKIS, in 2000 Shrub made it off limits to discuss his sorry record as governor ("Don't mess with Texas").

Anybody heard of Quemoy and Matsu? They were the earth-shaking ISSUES in the KENNEDY-NIXON debates.

Could somebody click "R" (#5), please?
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
15. sadly, I disagree....
Climate change SHOULD be one of the most important issues in 2008, but it won't be. The forces driving climate change are 1) human reproduction, 2) economic growth, and 3) western energy intensive lifestyle. People will NEVER willingly give up their "right" to shit in the commons for individual gain. Garrett Hardin was utterly right about that, IMO. I mean, look around you. We KNOW how to reverse greenhouse gas accumulation by ceasing to generate heat trapping gases at higher than background levels. But NO ONE is making any substantive effort to do so. Token efforts like Kyoto, as nice as they are to see, are ineffectual because they take as a base premise the "rights" to items 1-3 first, and seek to limit growth in green house gas discharge within that framework rather than actually reverse atmospheric concentrations.

The truth is that correcting the base causes of global climate change will require a great deal of sacrifice worldwide, and that sacrifice has to begin in the countries with the highest energy use and the highest waste generation-- the industrial economies. The political will to accomplish this will NEVER occur because government is driven by the same economic forces that drive climate change.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
16. I'm afraid you're indulging in wishful thinking.
If elections over the last 50 years are any indication, what we'll get is handler controlled politicians spouting platitudes and making promises about higher wages, lower taxes, "freedom", and the usual rubbish while avoiding the real issues. Plus the discerning media focusing on what they were wearing, how much applause they got, how big the crowds were, and, of course, the polls about who'd you'd like to share a pizza with.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
36. You forgot about the balloons.
For crying out loud.
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tatertop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
18. I predict the elections will be all about terra, terra, and terra
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
20. The number one issue in 2008 will be healthcare n/t
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
21. Al Gore's new Documentary should be out soon and that will help focus
attention on what's going on. It's supposed to get a wider release than originally planned because Paramount signed on to promoting it. I forgot the name of the Docu...but maybe someone will remember.

It's a good set up for Dems and for Gore ...should he choose to run, if you think this is THE ISSUE that will determine Midterms and 08.
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tinfoilinfor2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
22. I agree that it should be. Whether or not it will be depends
on all the usual villains.

I recently emailed Chris Mathews and asked him if he didn't feel any personal responsibility for the state of the planet he was leaving to his children and grandchildren since he was so vocally supportive of the leader of the free world who could make all the difference, but continues to ignore this mounting crisis.

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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. that's what i don't get - they don't even love their own grandchildren
how is that possible?
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. IMO, they don't believe the environment CAN get so bad
sort of like teen-agers who think it is impossible that they might die so they do incredibly stupid things.....and, surprise, some of them do die or spend the rest of their lives as a parapalegic
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AJH032 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
23. I hope so
because that happens to be the most important issue to me right now.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
26. All Gore is our man in 2008.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. i second that
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. As Long As He Picks John Edwards To Hang With Him!
Go Johnny Go!
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #26
69. And here's your third.
I really hope he runs.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
27. the Kyoto Protocol went into effect February 16, 2005...
Why aren't we a party to it?

Our country is putting present day economics ahead of the present and future well-being of us, our children, the environment/world we live in...

On July 25, 1997, before the Kyoto Protocol was to be negotiated, the U.S. Senate unanimously passed by a 950 vote the Byrd-Hagel Resolution (S. Res. 98), which stated the sense of the Senate was that the United States should not be a signatory to any protocol that did not include binding targets and timetables for developing as well as industrialized nations or "would result in serious harm to the economy of the United States".

The two major countries currently opposed to the treaty are the USA and Australia. Some public policy experts who are skeptical of global warming see Kyoto as a scheme to either retard the growth of the world's industrial democracies or to transfer wealth to the third world in what they claim is a global socialism initiative. Contrariwise, some argue that the protocol does not go far enough to curb greenhouse emissions (Niue, The Cook Islands, and Nauru added notes to this effect when signing the protocol...

Cost-benefit analysis

Economists has been trying to analyse the overall net benefit of Kyoto Protocol through cost-benefit analysis. Just as in the case of climatology, there is disagreement due to large uncertainties in economic variables. Still, the estimates so far generally indicate either that Kyoto Protocol is more expensive than the state without Kyoto Protocol or that Kyoto Protocol has a marginal net benefit which is lower than the net benefit of simply adjusting to global warming. The recent Copenhagen consensus project found that the Kyoto Protocol would slow down the process of global warming, but have a superficial overall benefit....

While it has been difficult to arrive at a scenario under which the net benefits of Kyoto are positive using traditional discounting methods such as the Shadow Price of Capital approach <5>, some have argued that a much lower discount rate should be utilized; arguing that high rates are biased toward the current generation. In part this is philosophical value judgement which is outside the realm of economic.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol
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KAT119 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
28. Al Gore in '08 and a woman V.P.- more women in top posts-women will
negotiate more-not bomb first! By 'n large we know that women seek power to empower people...not power OVER others to perversly enhance oneself. Women instinctively know what families around the globe truly want & need- which enhances PEACE. Not policies of greed, bigotry & more power through violence-which is no solution...as most of us know too well.
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KAT119 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
29. Stephanie, I totally agree! n/t
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #29
39. That SHOULD be one of the top 3 things
THE WAR

THE ENVIRONMENT/WARMING

AND THE KATRINA MISTAKE/FIXING IT/PREPARING FOR FUTURE DISASTERS

unfortunately, the rethugs are going to preach it from the pulpits
that GAYS (ghast!) shouldn't be allowed KIDS and the DEMS are
trying to FORCE you to allow GAYS to watch or even TEACH your kids.


They'll rip on us so bad, and it pisses me off.

they'll get theirs in the end.

we have to fight and say, look, gays have been taking care of kids
for a longggg time, and all the gays in the child welfare area
need to SCREAM we're ALREADY taking care of kids, along with teachers,
and such, and throw a fit and say they're trying to focus away from
the REAL matters. but in smalltown America, the gay thing plays well
too good for em!

ps - John Kasich is proving he's NUTS by having Pat Robertson on, and
kissing his ASS right now on the "heartland". He's praising him and
talking about his book and saying "I'll buy your book", "he has a good heart",

Bullshit John!!!! I voted for you, I now wish I didn't.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
33. If so, then Kucinich should get the Dem nod.
A vegan with a vegan first lady, promoting hybrids...that's the trifecta. Can't really throw much back in his face.
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
34. So Now Al Gore Can Gain His Rightful Place As President??
Ya think??
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. be nice~! that or Clinton, Clark, or Obama, even Edwards...
Edited on Sat Mar-04-06 08:24 PM by themartyred
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ourbluenation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
37. But the wedge issue will be illegal immigration...
you'll see...
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enfield collector Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #37
73. yup it's the 800# gorrilla that no politician
wants to talk about but 80% of Americans of all races are majorly concerned with.
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Scout1071 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
41. AL GORE. STRONG ON SECURITY. STRONG ON ENVIRONMENT.
STRONG FOR AMERICA.
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InvisibleTouch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
42. You're absolutely correct in your warning; however...
...I'm convinced that this country and indeed the whole world will never come together in time to reverse the damage that's already been done. Too many people don't care, and even more don't know, because they're being deliberately misled. To avert massive climate chaos now, would require a paradigm shift of such proportion that it simply isn't possible for the human species, in such a short period of time. There will come a point when almost everyone will realize what should have been done; had everyone lived a little more lightly on the Earth, constrained their greed and ignorance just a little, it would have made all the difference - but by then it will be too late. Just like all the ancient civilizations that fell before ours, insight and remorse will come only during the collapse itself.

The only thing we can do now? Plan for our individual survival, as best we can. Even that may not be enough, but it's better than sitting around waiting for the end of the world.

That doesn't mean I'm giving up, doesn't mean I won't do everything I can to get Dems back into office. I'd love to see Al Gore take charge of this situation. John Kerry is a dedicated environmentalist also - in fact, that was the #1 thing that endeared him to me. I don't hold out a lot of hope for the future, but as they say, "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - so we need to do everything we can, even when things look hopeless.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #42
50. Most of the world has come together
the US and Australia are holding out.

I was surprised to find out that this is not common knowledge - but why should it be? It's not like the Corporate Media covers it.

above post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


This should be common knowledge also -> boycott Exxon:

"In June 2005, State Department papers showed the administration thanking Exxon executives for the company's "active involvement" in helping to determine climate change policy, including the US stance on Kyoto. Input from the business lobby group Global Climate Coalition was also a factor."
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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #42
61. It's not delberate; it's laziness and apathy
Edited on Sun Mar-05-06 12:50 AM by Nevernose
It's not that our educational system has failed us so badly that most Americans are incapable of complex or long-range thought, nor is it that we are being "deliberately misled." Most of us -- even our poor -- are more concerned with good sattelite TV reception, a bigger screen TV, the latest sale at Wal-Mart on shit we don't really need, scoring good weed or another boutique beer.

We're not a nation of consumerist addicts, we're consumer JUNKIES -- people who will go out of their way to avoid thinking about tomorrow, thinking about politics, thinking about society, thinking about consequences, or thinking AT ALL. We're self-absorbed, obsessed with our over-inflated sense of self-worth and entitlement, and, what's worse, we're LAZY. Entertain me, goddamnit! Just don't make me think too hard about anything that really matters in the process.

We're Rome. With cell phones.
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 04:23 AM
Response to Reply #42
70. Thank you for mentioning that Kerry is committed to environmental issues!
Edited on Sun Mar-05-06 05:01 AM by Pachamama
A lot of people forget this or are not aware that this is even how him and Theresa met....Her son Andre is very active in the environmental and sustainabilty movement....Anybody remember in the 2004 campaign Kerry's vow for 20 percent Renewable energy by 2020?

Here are some good links/interviews with Andre Heinz to refresh the memory of the Heinz & Kerry family's committment to the environment:

http://www.emagazine.com/view/?2065

http://www.grist.org/news/maindish/2004/09/07/griscom-h... /

Al Gore, John Kerry, Dennis Kucinich...there are so many smart, good Democrats committed to environmental responsibility and if in a leadership position (such as POTUS) would make sure that Global Climate Change and sustainability were addressed. My guess is that either President Gore or President Kerry would have made us signatories to the Kyoto Protocol and they would have been taking the same dollars that are now going into the pockets of Haliburton and the Iraq War into the development of alternative energies and outfitting Americans with these technologies....

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stubtoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #42
76. Hi - I agree with you it's too late to reverse the damage.
We're going to be doing mitigation and damage control for generations, because it's way too late for prevention. We had our chance decades ago, blew it, and now we are stuck with it.

We don't even know what climate disruption will actually look like yet, and that's the really scary bit.

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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
43. Two issues.
The effects of peak oil will likely be making themselves felt by 2008 if current predictions are accurate; if this turns out to be the case, the effect on the US and global economy will be severely damaging and probably catastrophic. Couple that with continued inertia and lack of any coordinated internationaal action to address the problem of global warming, and there are some very bleak times ahead indeed.
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gristy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
44. After reading this thread, I believe that you may be right
The central issue of the 2008 campaign will be global warming, but it won't be about stopping it or slowing it down.
It will be about surviving it. :scared:
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
45. The issue will never make it into the campaign in a big way ----
Which is not to say that it shouldn't, but it won't. Look at the bureaucratic ambivalence about global warming/climate change and you will understand.

The majority of the American people just don't care, regardless of the information they are given.

Our best bet is to do everything possible to secure the Presidency and Congress for the Democrats and then lobby them to fight on this.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
46. I keep pointing people to this article in a local paper...
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
47. Mother Earth is through with us
She nurtured us through our birth, she provided sustenance for us through our lives. We have repaid her with a careless disregard for her well-being. We have intentionally ignored her cries for help.

She is through with us.

Let us perish. We do not deserve anything more.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
48. Let's just say: I agree. I'm glad I have no children. Were the Maya right?
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Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
49. Even if it doesn't become the most important issue, it should. Thanks. K&R
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
51. This earth needs non-corporatist politicians
we need to open our eyes, the fundies refuse to.

we need to elect politicians that don't sell books about saving the planet, the sell us out in the name of FREE TRADE.

Corporatism will destroy life. That should be the new truism. Applicable to Dems AND Rethugs.
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Clara T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
54. Climate change forecast getting worse
Climate change forecast getting worse
27 February 2006

The outlook on climate change is getting grimmer. Ruth Laugesen reports.


For the past 12 months, merchants of doom have enjoyed a permanent rush hour. At every turn, it seems, another eminent scientist is warning of looming disaster.

Professor James Lovelock, originator of the Gaia theory, says rising seas will one day engulf London. Not only that, but the Arctic circle will be premium real estate for those wretched bands of humans who survive the coming floods and lethally hot weather.

His advice? It's too late for timid measures. We need to quickly build nuclear power plants to avoid putting more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. Lovelock's views are provocative. The cynics would also add that such views won't hurt sales of his book, The Revenge of Gaia.

But in recent months, a cascade of new scientific evidence on climate change has made even mainstream scientists increasingly concerned about what lies ahead. One is Dr David Wratt, leader of the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research's national climate centre."Over the past few months in particular, knowledgeable scientists have got more concerned that there might not be just a gradual bit of warming, but there could be some more substantial and worrying things happen," he says.


http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3585048a7693,00.htm...
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
55. Food, water, and heat will be more pressing problems (oops, issues)
Edited on Sat Mar-04-06 11:04 PM by IDemo
Global warming may be the bigger problem from Mother Earth's perspective, but what will likely impact us sooner and more directly is the economic havoc resultant from energy price shocks and the shedding of US currency by China and other big carriers of American debt.

The Great Depression of 2k may only begin to appear this year, but should be in full form before election 2008.
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juliana24 Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. People dont care about global warming when they are freezing to death...
out of work and starving....

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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #55
59. Hear Hear!
The proles will be screaming for strip mining of coal, environment be damned, for conversion to low priced go juice to continue the easy motoring surburban SUV life.

I am afraid one of the effects of petrocollapse will be abandonment of environmental considerations as the first real fear most 'Mericans have ever felt takes hold.


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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
58. ONLY Issue Now is Impeachment -- Can't do anything with this fascist . . .
. . .regime in power.

I don't mean to minimize the horror of global warming. If we have rendered the planet uninhabitable, it doesn't much matter whether America was a dictatorship or a constitutional democracy.

But, speculation about the candidates or issues in 2008 is a distraction. Events in the coming year are likely to render all speculation irrelevant.

RIGHT NOW, Impeaching Bush and Cheney is Job One. Impeachment is truly the ONLY issue that matters. Restoring legitimate authority is the key to doing ANYTHING PRODUCTIVE.

Americans can only have a role in creating rational global and domestic environmental policy if we have a functioning constitutional democracy capable of enacting and enforcing our collective will.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
60. Destroying the planet is what Bush is about.
The guy doesn't care because he thinks he can ride it out in the pampas of South America with Rev. Moon.

Once the rest of humanity is gone, Bush and his ilk will crawl out from under their rock and rule the roost.

Not that it will be much of a world for living in.

Consider the state of the oceans:

http://www.motherjones.com/news/featurex/2006/03/oceans...
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #60
66. It's the Rapture baby!!!!!
These crazy fundamentalist whackjobs who think the Rapture is coming don't realize that what is actually coming is the destruction of the planet as a habitable place for humans and that it has nothing to do with them all being "swept up into the heavens" and surviving because they are the chosen.....

:puke:

PS: Bringing on "the Rapture" aka the "Destruction of the World" will be the only success that can ever be attributed to George W. Bush....
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long_green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #60
85. Excellent article, 'fish
You brought my browsing to a crashing halt.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
62. problem is: Impossible to address gloabal warming without trustworthy
voting systems, because those with the foresight to address the problem will not be permitted to assume the Throne of Amerika.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 03:24 AM
Response to Original message
64. The weather will tell.
If a few more cities are destroyed by storms or drought, then yes, this will be the number one issue.
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 03:51 AM
Response to Original message
65. Old news....Oops! No, that old news was Greenland...or..was that Iceland?
:sarcasm:

As I read these stories you posted about Antartica, I felt sick....There are actually people who probably won't even pay attention to this (and actually think its old news, since they can't remember their Geography) and think its another reference to Greenland and the Artic circle...

I agree with you Stephanie...this is the most serious issue, because it doesn't matter who you are, if you live on this planet, you'll be affected. But sadly, I'm afraid the human race seems hell bent on its self destruction and it won't be the most serious issue even though it should be. If we live in a country that can't name more than one of the rights listed under the 1st Amendment, but they know more about the Simpsons instead or the names of the Judges on American Idol, then, quite simply, WE ARE ALL SCREWED! (and yes, that includes the Bush's and Cheney's et al of the world - unless they have their rocket ship to some colony on Mars planned in the future...)

:puke:
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patricia92243 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
71. Ohhhh! If only AL Gore had gotten to take his place as President.......
we would not be in this predicament.

Will we have a candidate in 08 that is smart enough to make this a MAJOR campaign issue.
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PaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
72. Gay Adoption
There's your issue.
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Joe Fields Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
74. Mark MY word.......
Environmental issues, unfortunately are swept aside like step-children at family get-togethers, during campaign season. The environment ALWAYS takes a back seat to "social" issues, such as abortion and gay marriage. Issues like war, national security, the economy, all take up most of the oxygen left in the room in the debate of ideas and ideologies. The environment ALWAYS comes in dead last, barely getting any lip sevice at all.

Having said that, I believe it should be at the forefront of today's debate. We cannot treat this earth like our personal garbage dump anymore. It won't heal itself, there IS GLOBAL WARMING, and there are many other subjects needing our immediate and undivided attention. BUT IT WON'T HAPPEN ON A NATIONAL STAGE IN AN ELECTION YEAR. It never has, in my numerous decades of closely following national political campaigns.
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apple_ridge Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
75. Thank you, O Omniscient One!!!
Get over yourself.

Friends who have known me online for four or five years will attest, I have clued in to certain key issues such as electronic voting, PNAC, Plame, and other stories, way ahead of everyone else.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
77. WorldlinkTV had an Al Gore special on global warming a few weeks back-
Edited on Sun Mar-05-06 01:09 PM by QuestionAll
and if Al's 2000 campaign was as powerful- he'd still be president.
don't miss it.

btw- i've been saying the same thing about what will be THE ISSUE in the 2008 election for some time now...

BUT- i have to disagree with you about something-

in my own opinion, it's already too late to stop it before there are cataclysmic events for the human civilization.

interesting times ahead... :popcorn:
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
78. I wish there was a chance that enough people would finally
be paying attention to that. I'm not sure they will.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
79. Sure. And Monkeys are going to fly out of my butt in 2008 too.
Global warming and climate change will never be a top issue except among a small number of upper middle class white voters. It doesn't matter how important an issue is for the long term if it isn't a matter of daily concern to the average person.
If you really want to get people on board for pollution controls then you have to talk about real world daily issues that effect people right NOW, not 50 years from now in theory. Increased asthma rates, clean drinking water, cancer rates, and fish that don't turn you sterile are quality of life issues that people will actually care about.
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
81. Actually, you are preaching to the choir. some of us were concerned
about this issue 30 years ago, but nobody would listen (plus EXXON-Mobil was paying for disinformation from various Conservative Anti-Think tanks). Have you been promoting (or looking into) any ways to help this situation?

Just curious.
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
83. It's Gays and Abortion again in 08.
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
86. Sing out sister!!!
Edited on Sun Mar-05-06 05:38 PM by im10ashus
I am right there with you! Thank you for the links. Keep this kicked!

:kick:

Edit to add:

We need to go to this!



The Stop Global Warming Virtual March on Washington is a non-political effort to bring all Americans together in one place to start addressing global warming. With the support of leading scientists, political and religious leaders, prominent Americans and concerned citizens, the Virtual March on Washington will move across the United States via the Internet from one town to the next. The March will present evidence of the effects of global warming while highlighting people's concerns and solutions along the way. The March will culminate upon its arrival in Washington D.C. on Earth Day 2006.

Why is Patagonia marching?
Every business needs to take action to reduce the emissions of greenhouse gases that contribute to global warming. The recent devastation in New Orleans and the increasing intensity of tropical storms in general is a sign of what global warming can bring us and, alas, it is not the only sign. Rapid climate change deeply undermines the resiliency and adaptability of ecosystems.

The new climatic instability increases the vulnerability of the wild places we love and are working to save or restore and places less wild, like a favorite stretch of dappled river, lupine-studded alpine meadow, or secret fishing hole.


cont'd...

http://www.patagonia.com/enviro/globalwarming.shtml
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Geek_Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
87. After a few more Nasty Hurricane seasons
I don't think the MSM can turn a blind eye to global warming.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-06-06 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. this is what I'm saying
it will be unavoidable -
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-06-06 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
89. Dawson City, YT, Faces Melting Of Ice On Which Town Of 1500 Is Built
Dawson City, YT, Faces Melting Of Ice On Which Town Of 1500 Is Built

DAWSON CITY, YUKON -- This is a town built on ice, which is a real concern to Norm Carlson, who runs Dawson City's public works. He has seen the early warning signs of climate change: massive spruce beetle infestations, extreme wildfire and fast spring floods.

Next up: melting permafrost. For this outpost of 1,500 people, 100 kilometres from the Alaska border, that could lead to the destabilization of the town's dirt roads, buried sewers and water lines, which are encased in naturally occurring ice or frozen muck two metres below the surface.

"If the permafrost fails here, everything is going to snap," Mr. Carlson said. "It just can't take that kind of movement. Roads would melt, the whole town would sink. We would lose all our infrastructure wherever there is ice in the ground. It would be soup." There are early signs of a problem. In February, one section of a water line dropped 25 centimetres at a joint, causing a large tear. The problem was discovered when water filled, then froze, a manhole nearly a block away. The damage was repaired at a cost of $20,000.

Crews are constantly on the lookout for sinking ground and frozen manholes. The longer the water runs underground unchecked, the more it melts the ice, further destabilizing the infrastructure. "Once you have a break in Dawson, it saturates all the ground around it," Mr. Carlson said. "If that's a permafrost area, it stays saturated and you have seriously weakened the infrastructure around the whole area."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.200603...
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