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Harper_is_Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 10:37 AM
Original message
What would everyone be saying if Paul was protesting outside a meat plant?
I know a portion of folks are against all animal consumption, and the answer would be "I'd support it just as much".

But how many of the people praising thier actions now and demonizing the seal hunt and hunters would be forced to say "Well, I ain't giving up my steak and burgers!"??

Is a meat packing plant any less cruel than the seal hunt? No.

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Darth_Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. I love baby seals, but Paul is out of line....
We Canadians are not cruel, inhuman bastards heartlessly slaughtering baby seals. :(

Not that they said that, but I'm canadian and on the defensive here. :(
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. my thought is that until people stopped buying the fur
Edited on Sat Mar-04-06 10:47 AM by FLDem5
it won't stop.

The seals will be slaughtered one way or another, as long as there is a market for them.

I am a vegetarian - but don't care what you eat or what you hunt.

My only wish is that the raising and/or killing of these animals is done humanly. Other than that - it is not my business what you choose to eat wear, just please take a momet to think about where it came from and how it was treated.

If everyone just did that, organic farming (and ranching) would explode and become the method of choice.

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Darth_Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
35. I don't anyone personally who wears fur......
Fur for fashion bites, and I **think*** that the killing of some seals is due to over-population concerns. At least that's what I've been hearing. :(

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. So those videos are false?
Are you alleging they have been photo shopped? Are they counterfeit? Sure looks like baby seals are being slaughtered to me.
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Harper_is_Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. The white coats are not allowed to be hunted, not since the 70's.
What video are you talking about? A 35 year old one?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. The videos are 35 years old?
So they aren't slaughtering baby seals anymore?

Has anyone told Paul McCartney this? :)
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Harper_is_Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. I don't know which videos you've seen...
you'd have to direct me someplace.

The picture of the white coat (baby harp seal) that they all use is what was outlawed 35 years ago. Not the picture, the hunting of them.
Yet they all knowingly continue to use that cute little big-eyed baby face. Lites up the donation line I guess.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. So are they still clubbing baby seals to death or not?
I really don't care what color they are.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Yes, they do, because baby seals only have a white coat
for a very short time. So, even after they change the coat, they are still a baby, but can be hunted.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Thank you
This is just incredibly barbaric. How anyone can defend this practice is beyond my comprehension.

I don't understand why they club them. Wouldn't bullets be effective?
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Harper_is_Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. Actually, many are shot with bullets.
But the hakipik (spelling?) has been determined to be quite humane. It crushes the skull in almost all cases, causing instant death.

Paul won't talk about that though.

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Clubbing is not humane
Yes, I know they club cows in packing plants too.
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Harper_is_Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. So you wouldn't be outraged if they used bullets?
Or are you just playing dumb again?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. I want to know why they club them to death
instead of just shooting them.

Frankly, the whole idea of killing animals for fur is repulsive to me. Have these people never heard of polyester?
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Harper_is_Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. So again, would you be OK with the hunt if they were shooting them
instead?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. And again, NO
Are you unable to read or are you just enjoying being difficult?
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Harper_is_Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Then don't waste my time
twice you asked why they don't shoot them instead.

Get off your high horse and debate in good faith.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Ok and you go on defending clubbing animals to death
Be sure to emphasize that they aren't babies. That makes a HUGE difference. :sarcasm:
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Harper_is_Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. If you don't care that you're misled with a picture....
then why do you care if the seals are babies or not?

I've explained the babies are white coats. Once the coats change color, I guess they're adolescents? Teenagers? Young adults?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. I find the entire idea incredibly barbaric
regardless of what color the seals are. I don't think we should be clubbing any animals to death for their fur. I also don't care if they are babies or not. It is repulsive to club any animal to death for fur.

Do you understand now?

If these videos are really as old as you claim and the practice of clubbing seals to death is now banned, then you need to shout that from the rooftops. If not, then I will repeat - it is barbaric.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. The seals are very cute even after they change their coat.
They are completely defenseless animals that can not escape being slaughtered.
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Harper_is_Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Yes, just like calves are. I think chickens are cute too. Lamb? Awwwww!
Paul should go after the real players in the meat industry if that's his gig. This is just a fundraising stunt.
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DenaliDemocrat Donating Member (536 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #15
31. So "cute" aniamls should not be killed
but ugly ones can be slaughtered with a freaking vengeance?? This is why I find the PETA crowd so hard to take. Purely emotional, no rational thought behind it. That is why they set loose 500 mink that had been born and raised in a cage "into the wild" where they all starved to death or froze to death or got eaten by other things. Could you guys at least hire a few biologists, and not some guys straight out of college, how about some real researchers with years of experience and put them on your staff.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #31
44. This is exactly why groups like PETA annoy me.
It's the same thing as when people are "horrified" every time they hear about Chinese people eating dogs. The way they talk about eating meat being immoral or how humans arn't supposed to eat meat also shows that they don't know jack about biology and human evolution. "Some guys straight out of college" pretty much sums it up; naive, spoiled, idealist suburbanites.
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Neil Lisst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
2. If you play Strawberry Fields backwards ...
... it says "Paul eats hamburgers."

----------------------

I'm in favor of anyone protesting anything that bugs them.

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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
3. Paul may be rich and famous, but he's not stupid
It's a lot easier to protest something that "dark-skinned" foreigners do some place in the frosty north than it is to protest something as "all American" as steak and burgers.

The way we treat animals and "process" their meat may be the worst thing in recorded history, but Paul will never protest it. He's not a fool. You gotta choose your battles and going up against the corporate meat industry worked exactly once: Upton Sinclair. It won't happen again.
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Harper_is_Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. The book "Fast Food Nation" demonstrates
an excellent example when the meat packing industry was affected to change for animal welfare.

If McDonalds wants the meat packing industry to change, they change.

Paul could (and should) take it on if those are his values.
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Dr. Jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. That book - HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!!
That book was VERY EYE OPENING! I could not put it down, literally. Also exposes the horrible conditions that the workers, many shipped in by bus from Mexico for super-cheap labor, are exposed to in the meat packing factories. You would not believe the inhumanity...
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Harper_is_Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Agree 100%. If Paul showed up at a meat packing plant
and touted that book...and that convinced even 10,000 Americans to read it that could inspire people to change the world. I know it stopped me from eating fast food.

Instead he shows up at a seal hunt....something that is environmentally responsible, highly monitored and regulated for humane practices. Why? Because that picture of that white seal pup and the outrage about the supposed "inhumane cruelty" is a friggin GOLD MINE for all the groups who line up every year for it.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. How do we know he won't show at a meat packing plant next?
I mean, he and Heather protested dog and cat killing in China, etc.
Maybe he will protest at a meat packing plant next?
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Harper_is_Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. I hope he does. Otherwise he's proven himself nothing more
than an opportunist fundraiser.

See Ezlivin's post above. He thinks Paul would be stupid to take on meat packers and America's appitite for steak and burgers. I wonder if that's why we won't see Paul at a meat packing plant. No guts to take on the real industry.
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ecoalex Donating Member (718 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. The Seal Hunt is well regulated, and animal rights groups say Canada
does a great job. With diminished fish stocks the seal population must be managed, or there would be mass dies offs, or diseases from malnutrition.Sir Paul is way off.Blunt trauma to the head is painless and humane.The meat and other byproducts are utilized, so there is little waste.All wildlife is managed now seals included.Paul needs to address global warming, that is a worthwhile cause.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. So clubbing a defenseless animal - a baby - is considered humane?
So was the electric chair at one time. And hanging.
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Harper_is_Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Not baby, adolescent. And you completely ignored the points
that poster made.

And yes, instantly crushing an animals skull is about as humane as death can be.

Maybe you can describe what would be humane to you?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. Letting them live would be humane
I take it you haven't considered that possibility.
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DenaliDemocrat Donating Member (536 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Letting them live
to decimate limited fish populations that would ultimatley cause a population crash and death by starvation?????????????

Have you ever taken a simple college-level ecology course and studied predator/prey interactions.


Also, cervical dislocation is the method used by most researcher when small animals are sacrificed during scientific research.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Man fucking with nature
Gee lots of great results, eh?
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DenaliDemocrat Donating Member (536 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. you say this
but I bet you live in town, the suburbs, shop at Safeway, King Soopers, K-Mart, WalMart, ....I bet your kids if you have any play sports on huge fields of grass. I bet you go skiing when you get the chance. Do you own dogs or cats that need to eat meat??


It is habitat loss due to man's consruction and city dwelling that makes shit bad. That is why , I cringe at most urbanites who scream about animal rights, etc. They are a bunch of fucking hipocrits. The true "animal rights" and conservationists live in rural areas, keep their property up for beneficial wildlife use, and maybe raise a few chickens or an occaisonal beef.


Hint: If you go to Barnes and Noble, order up a latte while you read the new PETA publication -- you and your lifestyle are doing way more harm than a bunch of Inuits out there killing a few seals.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. I have a clear conscience
At least I am not clubbing defenseless animals to death.

You don't know anything about me. Not where I live, where I came from, if I eat meat, etc. All you do know is that I disapprove of clubbing animals to death. And based on that, you take a flying leap to assume I even have a dog and that I feed meat to my dog? But somehow you feel it's not okay for me to disapprove of clubbing animals to death? And how this morphed into a conversation about city vs rural dwellers is beyond me. Get a grip.

Here is one little tidbit, though. I have never ordered a latte at Barnes and Noble - or at Borders. :)
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DenaliDemocrat Donating Member (536 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. it was a rhetorical comment more so than one directed specifically at you
but it is good to hear you don't drink lattes are Borders or Barnes.
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Harper_is_Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #39
46. What's with this line "clubbing animals to death"?
Quit trying to be melodramatic. You've said it doesn't matter HOW they're killed, you're still outraged.

It's a humane way to kill them, that the vast majority of the seals struck with the instrument they use have thier skulls caved in and die instantly.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #34
51. Actually
decimated fish populations are due to overfishing, not seals.

Have you ever taken a course in logic?

"Sacrificed" is a funny word. But then, so is "research" when used in the same context.
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yewberry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
42. Here's the pdf from the 2001 hunt:
Edited on Sat Mar-04-06 01:09 PM by tofunut
"Following the comprehensive and methodical study of the 2001 Canadian commercial seal
hunt, by 5 independent veterinarians, we conclude that the hunt is resulting in considerable and unacceptable suffering." (p. 1)

"Based on our observations, it is obvious that there is a tremendous lack of consistency in the treatment of each seal and the existing regulations are neither respected nor enforced." (p. 1)


"Unconsciousness is being defined to be at a level where the seal would not be aware or feel
being hooked through the maxilla with a spearing instrument, being skinned, or rendered a
laceration for bleeding.
I. Craniums with no apparent fractures would be highly un-probable to be
associated with a level of unconsciousness. Furthermore, it would be of
significant question if any alteration in consciousness occurred in these cases.
These cases equate to 17 % of cases examined.
II. Minimal fractures including hairline or non-displaced fractures could be
associated with a decreased level of consciousness but highly unprobable
unconsciousness.
Moderate fractures would be more likely to be associated with a more
significant decrease in consciousness than minimal , but would still not have a
high level of probability to be associated with unconsciousness.
These cases equate to 25 % of cases examined." (p. 7)

That's around 40% of seals studied found to be skinned while still conscious. That is not painless or humane.



edit: link to pdf http://www.ifaw.org/ifaw/dfiles/file_95.pdf
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Harper_is_Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. Biased group.
Tell me what HSUS says next :eyes:
the IFAW has it's own vets and is working for it's own agenda.

More than one independent veterinary group has conducted studies that don't concur with the IFAW findings.
Check this Canadian Veterninary Journal for some independent findings:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?art...

During the hunt in the Gulf in 1999, which was carried out mainly with the use of hakapiks, Bollinger and Campbell examined a minimum of 225 carcasses of beaters. At least 220 of these carcasses were of animals that had been killed prior to the observers' arrival on the ice floes. Skulls of all but 4 (1.8%) carcasses had multiple depressed fractures of the calvarium, with massive destruction of the underlying cerebral cortex. Of the 4 skulls without multiple calvarial fractures, 3 had fractures of the maxillary bones. The 4th skull showed no fracture, but a large subdural hematoma was found following removal of the calvarium. Therefore, these 4 seals may have been rendered unconscious by concussion after the blow(s), although the possibility that they would have retained or regained consciousness before being bled to death could not be ruled out.

Quite a difference in findings. I suppose you'll tell me that they are lying.

All these organizations who attach thier name to this study:
Canadian Cooperative Wildlife Health Centre, Department of Pathology & Microbiology (Daoust); Sir James Dunn Animal Welfare Centre (Crook), Atlantic Veterinary College, University of Prince Edward Island, Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island C1A 4P3; Canadian Cooperative Wildlife Health Centre, Department of Veterinary Pathology, Western College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 (Bollinger); Dakota Veterinary Hospital, 1026G St. Mary's Road, Winnipeg, Manitoba R2M 3S6 (Campbell); Consultants in Laboratory Animal Science, PH3370 Dominion Avenue, Ottawa, Ontario K2A 3X4 (Wong). Crook is immediate past Chair, and Wong and Campbell past members, of the Animal Welfare Committee of the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association.

are lying?

Or maybe the ifaw group were a little to....shall we say "subjective" with thier findings?
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. biased group
believe what you want to believe

ever been to a seal 'hunt?'

maybe you can take Cheney along....that's the sort of 'hunting' in which he revels, too
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Harper_is_Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. I'll believe the facts, thanks
Take some time and read my link. Educate yourself.

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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #19
43. McCartney
has been vocal and active for 20 years on all aspects of animal welfare.
But since McDonald's advertising pays the bills at our corporate media, people rarely hear what he has to say.
He has been clear on his positions on everything from organic farming, the commercial meat industry, fur, CAFO's, animal testing and promoting the vegetarian diet.
The seal protest is just one of dozens of actions McCartney has been involved in.
It is CNN-style corporate lackey media that is muzzling McCartney's complete message, because they haven't got the guts to offend their Wall Street advertisers.

For a more comprehensive view of McCartney's dedication and action, check out this interview.

http://www.viva.org.uk/celebs/paul_interview.html



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yewberry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
45. "Dark-skinned foreigners?"
90% of sealers are Newfies, the vast majority of whom are of Anglo-Saxon descent.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
38. I find the debate interesting if not, often, hypocritical
Edited on Sat Mar-04-06 12:54 PM by Spazito
I don't take a side as I am a meat eater and, therefore, supporting the killing of animals for my enjoyment. I must say I find the using of a 35 year old video to pretend that white-coated baby seals are still being clubbed to be misleading at best, or dare I say, outright lying not unlike bush.

I have no problem with protesters who eat NO meat, wear no clothing containing animal skins of any kind, use no product which contain whale oil, etc,. I do, however, find those who selectively chose to protest one kind of animal harvesting while are silent on others to be hypocritical.

Edited to fix incomplete sentence.
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DenaliDemocrat Donating Member (536 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. The pets! Don't forget the pets!
It seems like every vegan person I know keeps a couple of cats around for good measure. Cats eat meat. If you own cats, you are supporting the killing of animals to support your desire for a pet. Dogs too,
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #40
52. Dogs can definitely eat a vegetarian diet, being omnivores
they thrive on a plant-based diet just as humans do.

There are cat foods that are vegetarian as well, since all the micronutrients that they need can be derived from plants or synthetic sources, but while many cats do well on them some have urinary tract issues on those foods due to PH differences (this largely a problem with a specific US-based vegan cat food, I hear much fewer problems from people in other countries feeding other vegan cat foods.)

Probably more than you wanted or cared to know, but since you asked that's the story on vegans and feeding our animal friends.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
50. I just have to ask...
will you pose the same type of rhetoric every time someone that eats meat posts about what they might be doing to ease global warming? Will an attack be made on the owner of a new Prius, boasting, rightfully so, about the merits of their new vehicle if they take said Prius to the store to buy hamburger? Why attack a positive move?

See, many folks will take up a cause. Just because they don't take up EVERY cause, takes nothing away from the cause they do take up. Some will boycott Wal-Mart, yet bank with Bank of America. It's a "do what you can" take on activism.

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