South Dickota: These Woman Hating Bastards Are TRULY Sick

[omega minimo]

SOUTH DAKOTA BANS ABORTION
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/jan-june06/abortion_3-03.html
March 3, 2006
A new South Dakota law will outlaw abortion under almost all circumstances.

<snip>

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Napoli says most abortions are performed for what he calls "convenience." He insists that exceptions can be made for rape or incest under the provision that protects the mother's life. I asked him for a scenario in which an exception may be invoked.



BILL NAPOLI: A real-life description to me would be a rape victim, brutally raped, savaged. The girl was a virgin. She was religious. She planned on saving her virginity until she was married. She was brutalized and raped, sodomized as bad as you can possibly make it, and is impregnated. I mean, that girl could be so messed up, physically and psychologically, that carrying that child could very well threaten her life.

<snip>
 
FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Much of what she fears as an assault on basic rights Senator Napoli sees as a return to traditional values.

BILL NAPOLI: When I was growing up here in the wild west, if a young man got a girl pregnant out of wedlock, they got married, and the whole darned neighborhood was involved in that wedding. I mean, you just didn't allow that sort of thing to happen, you know? I mean, they wanted that child to be brought up in a home with two parents, you know, that whole story. And so I happen to believe that can happen again.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: You really do?

BILL NAPOLI: Yes, I do. I don't think we're so far beyond that, that we can't go back to that.

A state with one abortion clinic
 


FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Often patients must drive past picketers. No local doctor will go near this clinic...so, one day each week, a physician flies in from Minnesota to provide abortions. It's a cause that drew Dr. Miriam McCreary out of retirement.

DR. MIRIAM MCCREARY, M.D.: I just remember from my practice how desperate women were, and I just wanted to be available to give them a safe abortion. There are doctors who can't do this, emotionally, possibly. But for me, I put myself in their position, and I want to treat them the way I'd want to be treated myself.


:wtf:

What a concept! “I want to treat them the way I’d want to be treated myself.” A medical doctor has come out of retirement to provide vital medical services to women. Why? Because too many woman-hating male bigots want to turn the clock back on social progress, civil rights and human rights for women. They want to “go back to that” and make sure that women sit down, shut up and do as they’re damn well told. FOREVER.

It doesn’t occur to these sick control freaks to “treat them the way I’d want to be treated myself” because WOMEN ARE NOT PEOPLE IN THEIR TWISTED MINDS. They are subjects-- subjects in the royal patriarchy, subjugated to men and subjected to worse than second class status in the Wild Wild West of Neanderthal Land.

[MissB]

1. Another thread on this topic

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x570771

Didn't want you to think that anyone was ignoring your thread. :)

[omega minimo]

5. Thanks missb-- spotted after OPd.........so madDDDDDDD

The disgusting pornographic deviant fantasy of this US Senator can stand on its own as an indictement of these sick freaks :freak:

It also needs to be EMPHASIZED that this is all about the control, subjugation and dehumanization of women. :kick: :kick: :kick:

And for any men who still don't "get it." Don't worry! The Bigoted Bastards will be in your bedroom and your brain and your family and your doctor's office NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fortyfeetunder]

2. they are coming out of their hate-filled closet!

What is so sad about this commentary -- for all the wacko anti-abortionists we have is there are a whole slew of doctors among this group as bad as these weasels are.

[omega minimo]

3. His comment is an indictment of all who view Women as sub-human

:thumbsdown:

[FreedomAngel82]

47. The reason why they are now

is because they believe they have a majority in this country when they don't. 60-70% of the population is for keeping Roe v Wade as it is. When O'Conner retired USA Today had an article about her and a poll with it with stats and they stated that 68% of Americans were for keeping Roe v Wade. This doesn't mean they themselves like abortion or would have one but they understand the law and what it means for women. These people will regret ever doing this.

[nolies32fouettes]

83. it's sickening!

http://www.progressiveu.org/203316-south-dakota-abortion-ban-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest

Who do they think they are?!!!

[Fenris]

4. Mr. Bill Napoli has nostalgia for an age that never existed.

Women have throughout history visited "specialists" to deal with unwanted pregnancies. When the AMA outlawed abortions in the 1800s, various forms of the procedure had been existence for quite some time, practiced often by midwives, an occupation the AMA regarded as "quackery." Abortion providers were driven underground, often only reachable by acquaintances. The pre-1973 practice of abortion varied from case to case, but in the worst scenarios, the "back alley" scenarios, the procedure often turned deadly.

The idea behind the press for abortion rights was never about injecting abortion into society where it never existed before. It was wholly about providing women with the option to safely terminate a pregnancy. The idea that "back when" abortions never occurred is ludicrous.

[omega minimo]

6. Sounds like he has nostalgia for a snuff film he watched

The history you describe goes back to the rise of the medical profession coincident (not coincidentally) with The Burning Times, when midwives, healers, female community leaders and property owners were called "quacks" and worse on their way to being burnt at the stake.

[shanti]

12. or they placed them for adoption

now THAT, adoption, is what i think really drives the impetus to end abortion for many. not enough american white infants.

[Hidden Stillness]

45. A Little More Background on This

Just a few quick points about this. First of all, Hi, omega minimo. So it's South "Dickota" now--you know, I laugh every time I see that title; it is so silly, the word even looks silly. Anyway...

Abortion was actually legal when this country was founded, and there were two kinds, surgical and medicinal. When they put the promise of "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness," they made no attempt to end abortions; they were not referring to it. Medicinal abortions, herbally-induced abortions, of course, go all the way back to earliest times, and have been found all over the world. When surgical abortions were banned during the mid-19th century, it was after a series of horrible incidents of unclean procedures, incompetance, etc., where several women died, and, as all medical procedures were highly risky then, the solution was believed to be to end the surgery itself. It was to save the woman, not the fetus. As an aside, no woman has ever been prosecuted for having an abortion--only now would that be introduced. The kind of hatred these archcons have for women is only partly covered up by their "I love all life" routine, and every now and then, as here, it really comes out. You should be afraid of these pricks: studies of anti-choice, fundamentalist pseudo-"religious" males, by feminist group-funded studies, and by criminal profilers, shows an extremely high rate of abuse, battering, marital rape, and vindictive, hateful treatment of girl children by this type.

As for the "pretty" scenario of a lovely world with only criminally-available abortions (and, of course, males who skip out and leave the woman or girl to suffer alone--why don't they ever want to solve that one?), no one who has ever seen the picture, I think from 1943 or so, of the woman, lying dead on the floor after a "back-alley" abortion, where the male abortionist left her to die (and the original male partner skipped), will ever forget the total tragedy of illegal, dangerous, criminalized abortions. These people hurt only the woman--and they intend to.

[omega minimo]

63. It's clearly his fantasy of degradation of women that motivates him

as if women only "deserve" what is granted to them by men, their keepers, for being happy prisoners and for "good" behavior.

"The kind of hatred these archcons have for women is only partly covered up by their "I love all life" routine, and every now and then, as here, it really comes out. You should be afraid of these pricks: studies of anti-choice, fundamentalist pseudo-"religious" males, by feminist group-funded studies, and by criminal profilers, shows an extremely high rate of abuse, battering, marital rape, and vindictive, hateful treatment of girl children by this type."

Watching the broadcast, here this fuckhead had already described the violent attack on this (his twisted, hypocritical fantasy of a) woman and had to ADD SODOMY because that's how the porn movie runs in HIS head.
:evilfrown:


Thanks for checkin in HS, good to see you. "South Dickota" indeed :evilgrin:

[Strawman]

88. And you should hear his "burgers of wrath" jobs program

[omega minimo]

90. from ground steer genetically engineered to be born with no balls

"increased productivity!!!!!1"

[left of center]

7. These fools may get their way in SD, but they can't in the end

ban something throughout the country that two thirds of the population believes should be legal within the first Trimester. And when it comes to emergency contraception and the like, this number goes up even more. People will not stand for this. Just let them try to prosecute violators! I'd like to see that. That will be the day they hear loudly and clearly from the silent majority!!!

[omega minimo]

8. It's the Women-Hating mentality that HAS TO END

[left of center]

9. But many of these people against abortion are women.

What is the deal with that?

[omega minimo]

10. No, they're not. It's men in charge who want to stay in charge

[cedahlia]

30. Self-loathing women

It's sad, but true. There's plenty of women-hating women out there...think Ann Coulter, Phyllis Schlafly, and the thousands of Stepford wives out there who think and feel the same way they do. It's sick.

[left of center]

35. I'm sure some are pro-life for that reason, but I wonder if

other woman are so out of maternal instinct? That would also be an unconsious basis for thinking abortion is morally wrong.

As for women who hate women, I've met some who are that way. I think one of their motivations is jealousy. They look at themselves, where they are in life and the choices they made that brought them there. Seeing other women benefiting from making different choices incites a "who does she think she is" sentiment.

Then again, there is also good ol religious brainwashing- something to which both men and women succumb.

[area51]

38. "It's the Women-Hating mentality that HAS TO END"

Hear, hear. :applause:

Misogyny is at the root of all anti-choicers.

[omega minimo]

39. "Misogyny is at the root of all anti-choicers."

"Root" being the operative word :evilgrin:

Thanks area51.................................:yourock:

[Cleita]

11. So, I suggest all those S. Dakota males get vasectomies.

Then there will be no need for abortions. We should pass a law demanding that they get vasectomies. See how they like their private parts put up for legislation.

[omega minimo]

16. It's farm country

Geld 'em



:wow:












:bounce: :bounce:

[Erika]

18. Great post. The GOP have men as "held harmless" in the sex act

Women will pay the price and men skip the responsibilities. They aren't smart enough to use birth control or keep their pants zippered? And state legislatures agree?

[omega minimo]

19. His idea of responsible behavior is a shotgun wedding

"When I was growing up here in the wild west, if a young man got a girl pregnant out of wedlock, they got married, and the whole darned neighborhood was involved in that wedding. I mean, you just didn't allow that sort of thing to happen, you know?"

[Eileen]

13. Lying piece of pond scum!!

Napoli attended the debates and read the bill. He knows full well the intent of the bill is to challenge Roe and for this reason it was purposely written to exclude all exceptions but one - that being the imminent threat to the woman's life.

His scenario is definitely not covered in the bill and it is deliberately designed not to cover even egregious exceptions like it - since the exception he cites would constitute a health exception which the bill does not have.

The Pro Anvoluntary Aestators (or PIGs for short) want Roe overturned and no replacement that might involve some type of health exception. In fact South Dakota is the only state that designates a part of the Human Gestational Material, the embryo/fetus, as a person. If the SCOTUS rolls their way watch for prosecutions against women for "conspiracy to commit murder" and "first degree murder" for hiring a physician to kill the fetal person - and the physician who perform the abortion will be charged with conspiracy to commit homicide also. That's the appropriate way to deal with hiring a "hit person" to kill or killing a "person" - and murder for hire, respectively.

Where women are concerned the greatest terrorists on this continent are the Talibornagain cults, old and new, who use superstition to control the sheeple.

- Eileen`s always in process page -


Eileen

[omega minimo]

14. Then the "fetal person" should have a jury of its peers

[Triana]

15. men who seek to control women....

...pigs. murderers....

[Erika]

17. Contact info for Napoli

Address: 6170 S Hiway 79
Rapid City 57702-8467

Home 605-341-2370

Business 605-348-7373

He is listed as the owner of an antique car museum.

[DanCa]

20. *sigh* well no ones counter protesting.

I keep telling people that we have to stand up toe to toe with these bastards. If we dont start playing offenesive with these freaks than we can kiss Roe goodbye.

[omega minimo]

21. Rolling protests in solidarity with South Dakota women announced on Malloy

tonite (Laura Flanders hosting)... March 9th noon at Fed. Ct. Houses...Check with PP

[DanCa]

22. Thank you for the information.

I am sorry too have been such a downer. But sometimes I get the feeling that I am on my own when it comes to protesting these loons. Thanks for the info hopefully this will be the first step in physically protesting the religious right.

[northofdenali]

23. Morford has some pretty good comments on this.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2006/03/03/notes030306.DTL

<snip>It is time. Pack it up. Strip the bed, box up the cat, load the U-Haul, call your hip friends over in Minneapolis, move out West, or East, or anywhere with a mind-set not stuck like a bloody nail in the moral coffin of 1845. Let this be your clarion call. Get the hell out, right now.

Here is why: Your state hates you. Your state, apparently run by pallid sexless demagogic men who think they know something of God and morality but know only ignominy and the smell of sulfur and death in their nightmares, thinks you are irresponsible dumb-ass meat, unable to handle your own decisions, your own body, your sex. Your state's leaders and your Republican governor, Mike Rounds, wish to treat you like meaningless, voiceless chattel. Get out now. You already know why.

He goes on - and it's a great read.

If my local PP is part of the rolling protest, I'll be there.

[omega minimo]

24. Pretty good, yeah. When did the Chronicle hire a snarkumnist?

"See, modern women under 40, they simply don't accept it. They have no conception of a world in which they don't have complete control over their flesh, their reproductive rights, their sexuality. For most women of this generation, reproductive choice is simply a fundamental, incontrovertible human right, obvious and ironclad and indisputable, and so to hear that it's being deeply threatened in this back-ass BushCo world is so foreign, so surreal, it induces an immediate cringing recoil, like watching Tom Cruise stick his tongue in Katie Holmes' face, like watching flies feed, like seeing Dick Cheney naked. It simply does not compute.

"No matter. South Dakota's leaders, much like those in Ohio, Indiana, Georgia, Tennessee, Kentucky and Mississippi -- who've all introduced similar hateful, anti-choice measures -- don't care about women. They don't care about rights. But they care a great deal about power, about self-righteous ideology, about the ever-present egomaniacal male need to control, dominate, imprison that which it cannot understand. They care about suppression."


Thanks fer that!!!!!!!!!! northofdenali!!

[omega minimo]

25. Can you believe this?

:kick:

[omega minimo]

84. 244 posts (and counting) for the "Titty Twister" thread

:puke:

[sarahlee]

26. The Sodomized Virgin Exception

Digby calls it "The Sodomized Virgin Exception"
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2006_03_01_digbysblog_archive.html#114145668396763220

Then, read this post about a "Lincoln 1860" strategy by Armando at Kos - I really think that this is the way to work against the Anti-Abortionists.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/25/121323/39

and
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/11/8/92544/9371

And please, be sure to keep the SD Boycott on the radar:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=217&topic_id=3294&mesg_id=3294

[omega minimo]

33. Thanks sarahlee-- Valuable links!

:hi: :kick:

[sarahlee]

34. Should Liberals Stop Defending Roe?

This is an interesting debate as well:
http://legalaffairs.org/webexclusive/debateclub_ayotte1205.msp

[progressivebydesign]

54. The boycott thread needs to be in GD... not enuff traffic in Choice. n/t

[Blue_Tires]

27. growing up in the 'wild west?'

what in fuck's name is HE talking about?

[mongo]

28. Interesting that you blame this on "woman-hating male bigots"

when the legislation was introduced by SEN. JULIE BARTLING (D).

[omega minimo]

32. The hateful malecentric arrogance is outrageous. Check the video

Perhaps both genders can exhibit hateful malecentric attitudes.

Thank you, Dr. MO :hug:

[mongo]

59. I would if I could

But two old computers sharing one dial-up connection and streaming video don't mix.

[Katherine Brengle]

49. Women are just as capable of hating themselves as men are of hating

women.

It is another cruel byproduct of our social hierarchy.

[Solly Mack]

29. That fucked up piece of shit that deserves to die obviously

thinks if a girl or woman isn't a "virgin" or doesn't go to church then she must have wanted to be raped.

You know, I really don't think the misogynists realise the anger they are causing. I seriously believe that they have no clue of our wrath

[KAT119]

31. Bullys try to control women ANY way they can! n/t

[Marie26]

36. I'm so glad you posted this

That guy was creeeppy. He perfectly exemplifies the mindset behind many anti-abortionists. He started out sounding reasonable, then suddenly segued into some misogynistic fantasy. Also, he truly seems to think that if they oulaw abortion, suddenly everybody will get married before having a child, the neighborhood will come together, & we'll be magically transported back to a 1950's sitcom. It was a very surreal interview. "Abortion" is just a code-word for many of these people - it is truly about putting women back into second-class status like the "good old days". Dr. McCreary was a hero; it must take courage to put herself in danger every day to do that. Actually, that segment really emphasized how abortion is already basically illegal or unobtainable in the state.

[omega minimo]

37. "you just don't let something like that happen!"!

Shotgun weddings and bullies in charge from the home to the head of state. Twisted repressed deviant sexual brutalization replacing actual relationship or real (earned) respect. It is absolutely corrupt. Corrupted power, powerful corruption of everything human and honest.

His addition of sodomy was just too fucking weird. The absolute calm and arrogance of his presentation is what made it all the more outrageous. Clueless.

[dorkulon]

40. So, if she's not a virgin...

...it doesn't count? What a bunch of backwards idiots.

[ikri]

82. Obviously not!

Since if she's not a virgin it means that she's already married because the only way that anyone ever loses their virginity is on their wedding night. And if she's not a virgin (and therefore married) the chances are that the brutal rape was by the husband and, probably in the eyes of these lunatics, perfectly OK.

As others have mentioned in this thread, these guys are lusting after a golden age that has never existed in all of human history.

[sarahlee]

41. Please don't let this subject die - Support the SD boycott

Tristero at Digby:

...the politicization of the abortion issue has always struck me as a thinly disguised war against providing safe health care to the poor, especially women, rather than anything that engages a genuine moral issue which, in abortion's case, is a private one.

I still think this is true. But it is becoming clear to me that, not only because the issue of safe medical care for all Americans is an important issue in itself but because the right to such care impacts many other important issues, all of us must once again speak out, loud, clear, and often in favor of Roe v. Wade.

True, I've done so several times before, and just as unequivocally as I've done so here. But I feel a need to speak out even more. I recognize that others have sensed this need long before I have. They were right, I was wrong and I apologize.

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2006_02_01_digbysblog_archive.html#114105083457135849

Don't let this topic and the boycott die!
Info on SD Boycott and lots of contact information here in the Choice forum:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=217&topic_id=3294&mesg_id=3294

Larger discussion and additional contact info here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=497026&mesg_id=510894

[leeroysphitz]

42. This guy could be a "commander" in "The Handmaid's Tale" nt

44. ditto - what a neanderthal

[Jade Fox]

43. Jeez, the way he salivates over the details....

of rape sufficiently brutal to warrant abortion is beyond creepy. I think any psychologist would tell you that there is a little projection going on there.

As for the good old days when couples were forced to mary because of unplanned pregnancy: the misery that produced is not something any sane person would want to bring back.

[FreedomAngel82]

46. I'm tired of it too

I'm so sick and tired of being treated as a political football and nothing else. While they're trying to "Save the babies" never mind saving me from rape, incest or a life threatning medical issue and they mostly are against social programs and a national health care program so how in the hell are we supposed to pay for things ourselves? Most women who have abortions are poor, middle class and/or single women. :mad: I wish these bastards would stop playing around with my life!

[Katherine Brengle]

48. So, if you are a virgin, you have a "get out of rape induced pregnancy

free card"?

A woman who is not a virgin is of course asking to be violated, and thus gets no pity from society.

Go figure.

[progressivebydesign]

51. but only if you're "religious" n/t

[progressivebydesign]

50. Napoli is way too INTO his description of that rape...

Did that creep anyone else out? He was way too detailed.. does he think about it THAT much? Oh.. and only little religious virgins can get abortions? What a fucking lunatic. WHY do any women STILL live in South Dakota?

[dysfunctional press]

52. If abortions are going to be outlawed on the grounds that the fetus-

is a human being, then there SHOULD NOT be ANY exception in cases of rape and incest- unless the mothers life is in physical jeopardy from the pregnancy.

if the fetus is a human being, then the circumstances surrounding it's conception are IRRELEVANT.

btw- i am personally and solidly PRO-CHOICE.

[opihimoimoi]

53. If we read the Bible, in the ole days, rape victims were stoned to death

[JerseygirlCT]

56. Forget the bible -- check out Pakistan, Afghanistan...

many other places around the globe. Matters not whether she was raped or not -- loss of her virginity "dishonors" her family, and she's often the one to pay -- with her life.

Sick, sick, sick.

[opihimoimoi]

64. Beyond sick, its gone DELUSIONAL....

[JerseygirlCT]

65. Words start to fail me, you know? nt

[opihimoimoi]

81. I cannot blame anyone...these guys are off the Planet...beyond reason,

hope, and salvation...

[JerseygirlCT]

55. So does she have to prove her virginity before the rape

to get an abortion? You know, cause otherwise, she was just looking for it, right?

Ugh.

[omega minimo]

57. Castrated Abortion Thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x576859

"Napoli says most abortions are performed for what he calls "convenience." He insists that exceptions can be made for rape or incest under the provision that protects the mother's life. I asked him for a scenario in which an exception may be invoked."

BILL NAPOLI: A real-life description to me would be a rape victim, brutally raped, savaged. The girl was a virgin. She was religious. She planned on saving her virginity until she was married. She was brutalized and raped, sodomized as bad as you can possibly make it, and is impregnated. I mean, that girl could be so messed up, physically and psychologically, that carrying that child could very well threaten her life.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

58. So Only An Unmarried Virgin Christian That Is Brutally Raped & Impregnated

is allowed an exception? Shit, of all the ban propositions I've seen and all of the examples of when abortion is ok that quote is one of the most sick and twisted.

[omega minimo]

60. Also shows why abortion for "Convenience" is RW speak that offends people

as it repeats their terms, their mindgames, their slogans, their propaganda. It's misleading, it's untrue and it's unecessary to use that term here. Language matters.


FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Napoli says most abortions are performed for what he calls "convenience." He insists that exceptions can be made for rape or incest under the provision that protects the mother's life. I asked him for a scenario in which an exception may be invoked.


BILL NAPOLI: A real-life description to me would be a rape victim, brutally raped, savaged. The girl was a virgin. She was religious. She planned on saving her virginity until she was married. She was brutalized and raped, sodomized as bad as you can possibly make it, and is impregnated. I mean, that girl could be so messed up, physically and psychologically, that carrying that child could very well threaten her life.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

61. I Use The Term To Portray Those That Use It As A Solution In Place Of

contraception or personal responsibility. I know several women who have had 3 or more abortions done. They were completely non-chalant about it and viewed it as an easy out if their sexual exploits produced their undesired result of pregnancy. They wouldn't use protection, wouldn't ask their partner to use protection, and basically cared less about the risk of pregnancy. They had the attitude of "well if it happens, no biggie, I'll just get an abortion".

It is that type of attitude that I consider to be abortion for convenience and that I consider to be unethical and wrong. I don't consider it to be for convenience when the mother was being at least minimally responsible and chose to have an abortion because it just wasn't the right time, would hinder financially, wasn't emotionally or physically ready, etc... I'm not sure I agree with that either but I don't cast judgement on it. I use unethical for those like I had desribed earlier, that act recklessly with non chalance with an attitude of "who needs protection, it isn't hard to get an abortion if I get knocked up" (a direct quote from one of them, by the way).

[omega minimo]

62. With this info you might reconsider use of the RW slogan esp. given your

expanded explanation. Maybe there is another way to express it that is not offensive and repetitve of RW speak.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

66. I Will Definitely Take That Under Consideration In The Future.

Till last night, I had no idea that was a no no too. I know abortion on demand is sensitive and would never post something calling it that. Didn't blink for a second when I put abortion for convenience though, as I am firm in my perception of what that means: i.e. what I explained above. I didn't think for a second that others perceive that term as something different or on a broader scale. Even my wife, who is pro-choice, would bitch about her friend that talks and acts like that and my wife would say to me "You know I have nothing against abortion but those that do it just for convenience like that are just wrong". She's not political like me, but she definitely is pro-choice. I just assumed that many perceived the phrase abortions for convenience in the same manner as we did. Didn't know fundies use that to describe like ALL abortions.

In any case, in contrast to last night, thank you for letting me state my case and clarify. :hi:

[Disturbed]

69. Senator Julie A. Bartling (SD) Dem

Catholic

http://www.vote-smart.org/bio.php?can_id=MSD94427

[LisaL]

67. So, what would be the alternative? To have these women having

a baby after baby? At least they have enough sense to get an abortion, instead of having 20 kids for whom they can not possibly care, like some women do.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

68. With All Due Respect,

I would think a better argument would be "yeah, they really should learn to be more responsible and not use abortion as a quick fix"

I agree that once in the situation, it wouldn't be wise to have baby after baby. But it is their complete lack of responsibility and their shallowness that pisses me off.

[Cleita]

70. Spoken like someone who hasn't found themselves in

that situation. I don't know if you are male or female but imagine that you find yourself at a crossroads, where the decision you make is going to take you down the next twenty years. Wouldn't you like to be able to make that decision concerning those twenty years?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

71. What Are You Talking About? I Mean, Did You Bother To Even Read The

context before you posted something so wrongly assumptive? I'll tell ya what, I'll reserve the rest of my reply until after you go back and actually read the posts in which you decided to jump in and respond to. Would be fairer that way. :hi:

[Cleita]

72. I read it all again and haven't changed my mind.

I really hate talking about women's medical issues with people who don't understand that their bodies could be up for scrutiny too. But since it keeps on coming up I must. The fact is a woman's reproduction has always been between her and whatever she needed to do to limit her family. In the past, it could involve
leaving the unwanted born infant to wolves.

Most women would rather end an unwanted pregnancy, no matter what the reason is in it's early stages, when it doesn't have the evolutionary status beyond a sponge. Whether it is legal or not, they will do it. Isn't it better to have this done in a medical facility? It may be someone you love who may die because of stupid laws like this.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

73. Can You Point Where I Said Otherwise, Please? That Way I Can Give You A

shred of credibility.

See, cause your preaching to me as if I don't agree with you, or said something that in some way condones the SD law. Problem is, the SD law is a disgrace and I've said nothing to warrant your misguided replies.

Bye now! :hi:

[Cleita]

74. If you can't figure it out then.

............:hi:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

75. Knew Ya Couldn't Do It, But Thanks For Playing!!!

:hi:

[Cleita]

76. You are assuming I want to play. I don't. It's like having

a headache when someone else wants sex.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cleita]

78. I'm so hurt.

*fart*

[omega minimo]

79. Pro choice means supporting the rights of all women

and that's the focus here. You can see from the despicable hatefulness of this South Dickota bastard what women are up against. It's insane. The people you say you know that "view (abortion) as an easy out if their sexual exploits produced their undesired result of pregnancy" provide these woman-hating bigots fuel for their fanatical fires. But those few stories are not what the issue is about.

In order to not be misunderstood, not throwing in offensive terms and isolated (pretty weird, ya gotta admit) cases to obscure the big picture, would really help. Even if "But it is their complete lack of responsibility and their shallowness that pisses me off." That's NOT what this issue is about. Focusing on that and making it a big deal is what the Hate Wingers do. It feeds them.

"Till last night, I had no idea that was a no no too. I know abortion on demand is sensitive and would never post something calling it that. Didn't blink for a second when I put abortion for convenience though, as I am firm in my perception of what that means: i.e. what I explained above. I didn't think for a second that others perceive that term as something different or on a broader scale."

When you are "firm in my perception of what that means" and learn that it is HIGHLY CHARGED AND OFFENSIVE and notice that it "gets misunderstood".......... might wanna rethink that.

"77. Eh, Was Just Being Polite Rather Than Calling You Deceitful, Dishonest,
Edited on Sun Mar-05-06 08:19 PM by OPERATIONMINDCRIME
disingenuous and unable to backup your absurd assumptive claims. No biggie though, I think it is evident to most that your replies held no water to the context of my posts to begin with other than just to default to the same old baseless attacks."

Since the issue is about respecting women's rights, this would be a good place to start.

[Mushroom]

80. not needing protection

Did you suggest to their partners that they wear condoms? Appeal to their sense of honor, superiority? Lead by example and stuff?

[SidDithers]

86. The choice to have an abortion is solely that of the woman...

and her reasons for her decision, or her past medical history, are none of your damned business. Whether or not you "cast judgement" is completely irrelevant.

More than anything else, the abortion issue is about privacy and the ability make your own decisions about what happens to your body.

Sid

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

89. I Never Said It Was Relevant.

I also never said it was my business. But relevant or not it is still unethical and wrong within that context. Course, it is in fact none of my business if the woman chooses to act unethically. I'll agree with that. But I feel the right to cast an opinion about that type of behavior, when within the context I posted earlier, regardless.

[omega minimo]

92. It's the difference b/w one's view of abortion & view of abortion rights

This was an attempt to address that confusion about relevance of opinion

There's A Difference B/W Your Personal View Of Abortion AND Women's Rights

"Abortion rights and reproductive freedom and choice needs to be seen in the larger context of individual liberties, of women determining the course of their lives and having control over their lives. "

There's a difference between your right to your opinion on abortion and a woman's right to have an abortion.

Can you see the difference between what you think, feel, believe and choose for your own family regarding reproductive rights
AND respecting other's rights to reproductive health and privacy?

Can you see the similarity between joining discussions arguing what is moral or right or wrong for others based on what you think YOU would do
AND those religious or political busybodies who argue what is moral or right or wrong for others based on what they think EVERYONE must do?

Can you imagine that if women's rights to reproductive health and privacy are eroded (and women are returned to second class citizen status) that there may be more moral bigots coming after you in the future: in YOUR private life, in YOUR doctor's office, in YOUR family, in YOUR bedroom, in YOUR body?

As a wise poster stated on another thread:

“The abortion debate is about who controls a woman's body: the woman or the state. Anything else is meaningless handwaving.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10721401/page/3 /

RE: RESPECTING CHOICE WHEN IT'S NOT YOUR CHOICE TO MAKE

MR. RUSSERT: Can you be a pro-life, pro-anti-abortion rights feminist?

MS. MICHELMAN: You can be a feminist and oppose the act of abortion on moral and ethical, religious, on personal grounds; absolutely can be.

And, in fact, many people who are pro-choice in terms of their beliefs that the policies of this nation should respect the diversity of views on these issues related to pregnancy and childbearing, abortion, and reproductive matters, that there is a diversity of views and they are informed by one’s values, as they are mine.

But you can be absolutely anti-abortion, if you will, and pro-choice; believing that women ultimately, not the government, not Dennis Hastert and Tom DeLay and Bill Frist, but women themselves must determine the course of their lives, and central to that determining the course of their lives is determining when and under what circumstances they will become mothers.

There may be different views on the individual act of abortion, but in terms of who should make the decision, whether it’s government and politicians or women, there is universal acceptance that women must make that decision.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x576859-

Unfortunately, on DU a lot of time and space is wasted arguing about individuals’ personal opinion on abortion, rather than their informed opinion on abortion rights. TOO MUCH MEANINGLESS HANDWAVING.

"What is at issue is the individual right to privacy and dignity for American women and the issue of who’s going to get to decide the most intimate aspects of our lives."

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

93. Your False Preaching Is Really Becoming Tiresome.

Seriously. Enough Already.

I have made it abundantly clear what my stance is and that regardless of that stance I am 100% in support of the right to choice and the importance of maintaining that right. So why you feel the need to preach over, and over and over again is beyond me. Maybe if you and others actually read the damn posts and opened your minds for a second to the context we wouldn't have to go round and round and round with the same damn points over and over. Nowhere, in any of my posts, will you see any declaration that I support anti-choice legislation or otherwise condone minimizing the important rights of women. Nowhere will you find that. What I have done, is made clear my opinion on where I stand on the issue. This is a discussion board. Not only do I have a right to hold an independent opinion, it is encouraged and generally expected to post such opinions when on a message board. Don't like my opinion? Oh well. No sympathy here. And the self-righteous tones in which these responses keep having (not only from you) just undermines your whole argument. Not everybody sees the abortion issue in black and white. In fact, most don't. There are many shades of grey and many different levels of opinion within those shades of grey. There are many different aspects available for discussion and not one of them is concrete within itself. You and some of the others would be far more effective if you embraced those with not such a black and white opinion and rationally, intellectually and conversationally responded to them. As long as you keep it a black and white issue, with no room for any discussion or difference of opinion at all, you are not being effective. You are just talking at people and turning them off to wanting to see your point of view. Nothing is black and white. Not ever. And any time you choose to convince others of your point of view it would be best to listen to theirs as well, and let them feel a sense of common purpose and respect. And what definitely would be valuable, is not being so narrow-minded that you keep repeating the same extreme talking points over and over regardless of the fact that the poster already made it clear a dozen times that he or she understands and agrees, but still has a difference of opinion on different levels.

Get over it. I don't think in extremes and black and white. I think creatively, objectively and with an open mind. You won't change that, and I am 100% justified in holding the opinion I do. So enough self-righteous preaching already. You are just wasting time and effort. You obviously haven't absorbed a damn thing I've said in the dozen replies anyway, and the illegitimate redundancy of the return replies has run its course. Time to move on, don'tcha think?

[omega minimo]

94. You were confused about "relevance" of opinion on abortion vs. rights

Was trying to help.

Your self-righteous response is baffling considering the repetitiveness with which you jump in with comments you know will antagonize others and are often "misunderstood."

Apparently, it's your decision to continue, rather than truly learn to communicate effectively.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

95. And Still You Choose To Twist And Spin Without Any Shred Of Credibility

You must take the majority of DU'ers as fools, as you seem to reply with confidence that most DU'ers would actually fall for that spin above. I have far more faith in DU'ers than that and think they, like I, can pretty easily see through it.

If it's one thing that I haven't seen from you in most of these threads the last few days, was any genuine desire to help or communicate. That has been pretty evident. But to each their own, you have the right to post in whatever style you want, even if I do consider it to be completely unproductive, provocative and narrow-minded.

You say I was confused about relevance of opinion vs. rights. I challenge you to show me anything whatsoever that would lend any credibility to that statement, since it is quite a provocative one that in my belief has no basis in reality within the context of these last few threads. I'll be waiting to see if you can come up with anything that can back your statements up at all, since you are so eager to twist my intent in attempts to demean and otherwise slander my position, though I've been pretty clear in what that position is.

Thanks and God Bless.

[omega minimo]

96. "Time to move on, don'tcha think?"

:spray:


"And any time you choose to convince others of your point of view it would be best to listen to theirs as well, and let them feel a sense of common purpose and respect."

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

97. Finally! A Reply With Some Factual Basis!

I'm so proud of you! :hug:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


Time to move on indeed LOL

[omega minimo]

98. Also shows why abortion for "Convenience" is RW speak that offends people

as it repeats their terms, their mindgames, their slogans, their propaganda. It's misleading, it's untrue and it's unecessary to use that term here. Language matters.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Napoli says most abortions are performed for what he calls "convenience." He insists that exceptions can be made for rape or incest under the provision that protects the mother's life. I asked him for a scenario in which an exception may be invoked.

BILL NAPOLI: A real-life description to me would be a rape victim, brutally raped, savaged. The girl was a virgin. She was religious. She planned on saving her virginity until she was married. She was brutalized and raped, sodomized as bad as you can possibly make it, and is impregnated. I mean, that girl could be so messed up, physically and psychologically, that carrying that child could very well threaten her life.

:bounce: :bounce:

[Bridget Burke]

85. The idiot doesn't understand "choice"

He thinks that every pre-marital pregnancy now ends in abortion. Some of them do. But I've known many forward-thinking, pro-choice adults faced with a surprise pregnancy who married. They weighed their options & made that decision because they WANTED to--not because they HAD to.

And I've known women who knew they would have little help from the fathers. Again, they had choices. Quite a few of them DID become mothers.

I've observed that parenthood does have its bad points. Colicky babies, lack of freedom, financial expense, etc. Aren't those who have chosen parenthood more able to deal with the difficulties than those who feel they were forced into it? Doesn't a wanted baby have a better chance at happiness--even if she was not planned?

[omega minimo]

87. He thinks women are cattle-- the owner controls breeding

:thumbsdown:

[Left Is Write]

91. "Convenience."

Yeah. Most women have abortions because it's "convenient."

Fuck him.