Employers of undocumented workers are no better than crack dealers

[SoCalDem]

Impound their businesses..

I have been saying this for years, and apparently (Washington Journal callers today) seem to be thinking the same thing..

Here's the deal...

A crack dealer makes money off the drugs he sells illegally, and if he gets caught, all his "ill-gotten goods" are confiscated.. houses, cash, cars, boats, jewelry..all of it.. then they get sent to jail...

The business owners who hire undocumented workers on the cheap, and put legal workers out of work, are stealing money from the economy and forcing the rest of us to pay extra to make it up..

If a cabinet maker hires $6hr "carpenters" for a contract job, he can afford to underbid other cabinet makers, and get the contract for less, and still make a huge profit. He "tells" his workers they will have FICAS, and other taxes withheld, and he has to "match " it, but with a wink and a nod he knows they will not tell anyone or even KNOW that he is NOT withholding the money or sending it in.. He is pocketing it and they have no recourse. These workers get no benefits, they do spend money here and pay sales taxes,but they only enrich their bosses who probably hide most of their earnings too..

Meanwhile there are unemployed/underemployed people who would be happy to do those jobs, and SHOULD be doing those jobs.,,,but they won't/cant work for $6 an hour..

My husband's company runs into this all the time. they lose bids to these fly-by-nighters all the time.. His place is a union shop with full benefits, top of the line equipment, and a great reputation. they have plenty of work now, but in slow times, it really hurts when these other guys cheat the system. When the lowlifes start to feel heat, they close up, move their stuff, file bankruptcy, and a few months later are back in business somewhere else, under a new name..

My suggestion would be for a $10K per employee (non-appealable until AFTER it's paid) fine for the first offense

Confiscation of the company, home, vehicles on the second offense... and a 1 year jail term for the manager and owner..

Pretty soon there would be no reason for people to sneak in for jobs because employers would be afraid to tempt fate..

[DoYouEverWonder]

1. You know we can't do that

It would stop most of the illegal immigration from Mexico if we did.

[Skidmore]

2. Amen.

Before we're both flamed for being racists, let me say the following. The employment practices of these businesses make certain that the world's workers are exploited or enslaved. Free markets are not the answer for every ill in society.

[SoCalDem]

4. There are undocumented workers from LOTS of countries

and I have NO problem with people working for a living, BUT enough's enough.. There are too many people here who were born here, and are worling shitty jobs, barely getting by because employers get away with undercutting their employability by hiring people who should not be working here..

If we truly had an employee shortage and the economy was booming, it would be different.

I would like to see unions get busy again too.. The need for them is HUGE, and the time to regain our footing..

Unions made the middle class, and we are losing both..:(

[Skidmore]

6. I agree.

I was taught that charity begins at home. We need to start taking care of our own. And we also need to demand that other nations treat their workers fairly if they want to sell products here.

[Che_Nuevara]

10. That will never happen.

The WTO strikes down any attempt to regulate trade like that.

[Skidmore]

12. Then we need to work for it to happen or the workers of the world

will be once again subject to conditions similar to those of the nineteenth century. Instead of supporting policies which improve the lot of all workers and laws that insure they will be protected, why should you get behind illegal immmigration. It hurts workers in all nations.

[Che_Nuevara]

17. Too late -- "the workers of the world" ARE subject to those conditions.

In America, we're lucky as shit, because even the poor people have decent conditions, with the exception of undocumented workers and people in outlawed professions (such as prostitution). But these conditions still exist in T'aiwan, Sri Lanka, Nicaragua, Sierra Leon, Armenia ...

I DO support 'fair trade' laws. I think the WTO's charter needs to be revoked. I think there ought to be a universal minimum wage, an international standard for working conditions, etc.

But I'm also not smoked out enough to not realize that these terrible atrocities against humanity occur, whether we let foreign workers into our country or not.

It's ridiculous to say I "get behind" illegal immigration. I don't think it's a terribly good idea, and I don't profess to encourage it. I get behind illegal immigrants who honestly believe they have no other option except to starve to death.

I'm in favor of immigration reform, tax reform, and regulatory reform. With the proper national reforms we would have the ability to take a much higher rate of immigrants from poor countries legally, thus integrating them into a society with a higher standard of living. All the money we need to do that is there -- we just need to tap it.

The reason they're not registered is because we wouldn't allow them in. If we allowed them in, they'd be registered, which would automatically demand them a higher wage, a wage on which they paid taxes, a wage which was documented as leaving the country if it does, a wage we can track and account for. I've got absolutely no problem with people sending our country's money out of the country if they need it. Far more money leaves the country on account of big business than on account of illegal immigration.

Such reforms would help control the flow of money between countries. It would, in turn, help foster international reforms like ours.

In the mean time, should we really punish the citizens of poor countries just for being born there? Should we punish the people for the mistakes of their government, past and present? Should we allow them to starve to death when we have the power to stop it?

[Skidmore]

23. Common sense should tell you that we have people who were

born here who are also starving and homeless. Why should we punish them for being born here?

[Che_Nuevara]

37. I didn't say that we should.

But I really think our government has the ability to handle this. There will always be people who are willing to work for less than minimum wage, and there will always be people who aren't. But ask yourself this question: why are illegal immigrants working for $2 or 3 dollars an hour in a city, but the city's native homeless not? Surely it's nothing to do with taxes. They could, if they wanted to; the immigrants aren't exactly robbing them of a job. So why don't they?

[Che_Nuevara]

3. One problem with the

"people who SHOULD be doing those jobs" claim.


If I asked you to either shoot a Mexican or shoot an American, which would you choose?

If I asked you to either starve a Mexican or starve an American, which would you choose?


See where I'm going with this?

[SoCalDem]

5. Mexico needs a kick in the ASS.. Their citizens deserve a decent

life where they are.. They should not have to leave their families behind to become a slave in america, so their families back home don't starve..

Are you willing to give your job up to someone who will do it for 1/2 of what you are paid?? That's the question :)

[Che_Nuevara]

7. If they need it more than I do, yes.

And if they didn't need it more than I did, they wouldn't be willing to do it for half.

[napi21]

44. Well, then you're a better person than I am!

I'm NOY willing to give up my job so my employer can hire someone at half the price! I work damn hard...mostly 60-70 hrs a week, and I make in the high $30's. You are wrong to say someone else should be able to just take my job because they're cheaper!

[SoCalDem]

45. The person you responded to lives in Germany..

You know..a place where you can get medical treatment, unemployment money , money for school, plenty of "holiday" time off...all because for now at least, they have a country that values the comfort and lifestyle of decency to citizens.. (There are plots afoot to dismantle the safety-net, so time will tell ..

[raccoon]

22. I agree that Mexican government needs to do something about

this. But that goes against the nature of the power elite governments in any country or any century.

Suppose for a moment that poor Americans were slipping across the border to get jobs in Canada for much more than they could make in the US (and by the way for less pay than a Canadian citizen would get)--and sending mucho money home to their families in the US.

Think the US government would give a toot?

Not unless the well-off were whining that they couldn't hire gardeners or baby sitters or farm workers.

[Solon]

39. They can't provide it, not while NAFTA is around, that's a simple fact n/t

[acmavm]

8. Not really. This country should worry about it's citizen's first.

Mexico has a government and that government should be responsible for seeing that it's citizens are employed, paid a decent wage, and live in decent conditions. We are a nation drowning in illegal aliens. If they are here legally then they deserve the same protections as anyone else. Illegally, than they need to be sent back to where ever they came from, not just people from Mexico.

[Che_Nuevara]

9. Hooray for liberal xenophobia!

We all deserve the same protection ... as long as we were born in America?

Do you know how slanted US immigration laws are? You want to know why there are no illegal immigrants from England, and even the poor ones are legal? It's because we have no real quota on immigration from England. On the other hand, if we raised the quota on Mexican immigrants, they would be coming here legally, they would be regulable, they would pay taxes ...

What about people seeking political asylum? Would you send them back?

We are not 'drowning' in illegal immigration. Shrinkage from trade deficit is much worse than shrinkage from illegal labor. Job shortages have very little to do with immigration and far more to do with outsourcing.

[Skidmore]

11. People seeking political asylum are seeking a legal status.

I'll repeat somethign I've said many times on this board. If you sneak across the border in the dark of the night or in tunnels, if you go to the trouble of purchasing false documents, if you stay beyond the date stamped on your visa, and if you live in the shadows, you know you are breaking the law. We have individuals from all nations who do this. I went to live overseas for a decade, and observed the immigration laws of the nation I lived in. I did not sneak in, thinkt hat it was okay to have other than the proper legally obtained documentation required, observed their employment laws, and did not complain or feel entitled to other than what the laws of that nation asked of me as a foreigner in their country.

So it's okay with you that these individuals, as well as the employer and governments, break the laws of our nation and feel that is okay to do so?

[Che_Nuevara]

13. Most people come first, then seek asylum.

If it comes down to breaking the laws or letting them starve to death in their home country, I think I'll go with the option that sounds human.

[treestar]

15. But these are regulatory laws and they could be changed

The only reason the illegals are illegal is they are not individuals who fall into the rigid categories set out in the immigration and nationality act. The Act is from 1952 and it is hopelessly obsolete. It assumes a 1950s economy.

We need the laws to match the reality of who comes much better. Human migration is a fact of life.

The number of jobs is not static. It is not the case that a Mexican takes a job an American would otherwise have. They are contributing to a company a certain way, and that could create a job for an American, for example, in management. Even the person's consumption, while here, adds to the economy.

The cap on H-1Bs probably destroys jobs - the people needed here, by the companies here, aren't here and that company can't expand as it otherwise would, and then doesn't hire the Americans it would have, if it had been able to expand.

The economy is not nearly so fixed and static as these arguments assume. It's not 40 million American workers, 40 million jobs they are exactly qualified for and want. It's constantly shifting. The economy becomes more and more international, too, so the immigration regulations just choke us.

[Skidmore]

16. BS...typical freetrader BS

The economy is functioning in this way as a result of a conscious policy, pushed by corporations, and implemented by the Rs to pull the rug out from under the American worker. These businesses want us to consumer, but they don't want to help pay for the infrastructure by way of paying taxes or by, God help, paying a living wage. Sure the number of jobs aren't static. They're being taken overseas and being replaced with WallyWorld associate jobs or counter jobs at MickeyDs. In the meantime, we are being tapped to support R&D through government grants and the jobs created by the technology is going overseas too. And, to add insult to injury, educational funding is being cut continually. How are we supposed to be training these future WallyWorld and MickeyD workers anyway? This policy is going to bankrupt this nation. We're being shoved into a black hole.

[Che_Nuevara]

18. Do you know what the official 'living wage' is

according to economists?


$1 / day.

[Skidmore]

21. Well now that says something, doesn't it?

[SoCalDem]

28. Wow.. We have a DUer in Darfur? Biafra?Chad? Where ARE you?

No wonder you would be willing to give up your job to someone who needed it more :) $30 a month is a deal breaker..even for undocumented workers, I'm afraid :)

[Che_Nuevara]

36. Germany, actually. (n/t)

[jmowreader]

20. Well, that's an original idea...

Unfortunately, it wouldn't work.

The other reason we have no illegal immigrants from England is that it's really hard to get from England to the US in a way that would let you go around a border control point. I can think of three ways to do it that would actually work:

* come to the US on a tourist visa and start working
* fly to Canada on a tourist visa, then cross into the US and start working
* fly to Mexico on a tourist visa, then cross into the US and start working

I was going to say "get nailed into a crate and shipped as cargo," but the dope-sniffing dogs can probably also smell human shit--which, if you were sent by ship, your container would be full of by the time you made Bayonne. And as we all know, the Bush White House is much more concerned with keeping The Evil Reefer out of the US than they are with anything else.

Would you go through all that trouble to get a $6/hour job in America then have to put up with high rents, nonsubsidized healthcare and the urine-in-a-can Americans jokingly call beer? Well, neither would English people.

England is also more prosperous than Mexico.

It's a different story when the countries adjoin. Depending on the size and quality of your brass balls and the number of friends you have who've already crossed over, you might be able to just walk across the border and get picked up.

Now let's assume the quotas were raised. Now you've got a lot of documented workers from Mexico running around trying to get jobs...and they'd be competing with illegals, who would offer the same advantages they do now--low wages and no withholding, and if one of 'em gets injured on the job you just fire him.

[acmavm]

33. You have your 'slanted' point of view, I have my 'slanted' point

of view.

There's a reason why the word illegal is in the term illegal aliens. I cannot pick or chose the laws I want to break, here or in another country. Neither should they. And if someone has a LEGITIMATE reason for seeking political asylum, that's a whole other story. That's a rather cute piece of work throwing that in just to make it seem like I'm a raging bigot. But they need to go through the proper channels to establish their legality.

By the way, outsourcing is a big reason for the shortage of jobs in this country. But if there is a job shortage for ANY reason whatever, do you really have some convoluted way of rationalizing or reasoning that would indicate that we can support the people who were born here and the illegal aliens as well? I would like to hear how that would work. Does it have anything to do with a magic wand?

[Che_Nuevara]

38. I didn't say or (intentionally) imply that you're a 'raging bigot'.

I meant to imply that the people who write American immigration laws are raging bigots.

But answer me this: Why is illegal immigration so much larger a problem here than in, say, Germany? Surely Germany has more poor neighbors and nearby countries (Poland, Turkey, Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia, Slovenia, the list goes on ...) with large fluxes towards Germany. And surely Germany's economy is a fraction the size of ours. So what's the difference? Why can they handle the workers with less stress on their economy than we can?

[Pushed To The Left]

42. Making legal immigration easier might

be another good way to tackle illegal immigration, in addition to going after businesses (cheap labor conservatives) that exploit the problem for profit. I honestly don't think people disagree on this issue as much as they think.

[Che_Nuevara]

46. That's what I'm saying.

But going rigorously after cheap labor abusers without offering an easy legal alternatives for the immigrants will make the immigrants suffer even more.

[bunkerbuster1]

14. Been using your argument with racists for years.

Living in blood-red GA, where if you're a white male it's more or less assumed that you're a racist ReThug, I hear all kinds of hateful crap spewed in the direction of those scary brown-skinned people.

When I tell them that they need to direct their ire toward the criminal scumbags who are actually providing the employment for these folks, sometimes it's like a lightbulb going off in their heads, but usually not. They want to cling to their hatred of brown-skinned people.

Anyway this is a long winded way of saying yeah, you're so very right. Oh, you might be overstating the benefit somewhat--undocumented people will come to America come hell or high water because there'll always be shadowy folks willing to employ them--but we need to at least make an effort to thwart the demand side rather than always going after the supply.

[SoCalDem]

25. I am not talking about the "day labor" or "housekeeper" workers

Those people will always be with us, but even then..look who hires/exploits them..not lower middles or even mid-middles.. Rich folks crusiing around in their Beemers looking for "some guys to lay sprinkler lines or roof their house (sans permit, ususally), build a storage building...or the "lady of the house" asking all her friends for names of women to watch the kids, cook the meals, do the laundry, clan the house...

I AM talking about the "entrepreneur class" who feel above the law when it comes to protecting THEIR profit.. The guys who were "making it" when they hired workers for decent wages, but discovered they could get twice as many workers for the same price, if they hired exploitable workers instead.

Lots of these people "say" they are just trying to "make a buck" and it's because of all the regulations, but in reality, it's just greed..

[bunkerbuster1]

29. Day labor, "entrepreneur class," whatever.

It's all a matter of those who play by the rules versus those who don't give a damn about them.

Bringing it all back to a higher-level argument--For all the finger-wagging over the "terrible example set by Clinton" on account of him getting a little bit on the side, I'd say that Chimpy's utter ignorance of the law sets an exponentially nastier example, and those of us who are either hiring or being hired suffer as a result.

[KittyWampus]

19. I very much appreciate those DU'ers who are trying to move this debate

forward on the Left!

IMO, it's way too easy to just give the undocumented worker situation a pass. And focusing on the employers in such a rigorous manner is a sound alternative.

[Zinfandel]

24. "Kids, don't do crack, its a ghetto drug"

[SoCalDem]

26. and the lives of undocumented workers can be pretty "ghetto" too

the well-to-do employers who hire them are peddling ghetto lifestyles to them, and delivering unemployment and higher costs to the rest of us..

[Zinfandel]

27. Bob Roberts!

[donco6]

30. Just a question:

I'm a school district CFO, and we do about $2,000,000 in construction/repair work every year.

When I'm taking bids on a construction job, how do I know which firm has illegal aliens? I'm not hiring employees, I'm hiring a firm. I don't see the workers until they show up on site, and even then, my county is 25% Hispanic, so you can't tell anything by looking at them. They don't come in to me for payroll, so I don't see a SS card or ID.

Further, on jobs I've bid, I've never seen bids come in that are THAT wildly different one from another. Do I have to have the low-bidder's employees investigated? How do I do that?

And if my Board policy requires I accept the low bid, what position does that put me in? On the one hand, I can break board policy and be fired, on the other hand I can hire the low-bid firm with illegals and go to jail.

Hmmm.

I guess that was more than one question.

[SoCalDem]

31. My husband's company has been around for over 30 years

and in the trade, there are always people who "know" which places are using "cheap labor".. Like I said, his company is union, and fully compliant with EVERY rule known to man, but people talk..and some are known ..

On the other end of the spectrum,..the acceptance of bids.. I don't know how you protect .. The thing is that their BIDS are NOT wildly below..just enough lowere to get the jobs.. These are people who have also been in business for a long time, so their bids are still "average".. It's in the PRODUCTION end where they skim of the excess money..If they get a bid for $500K, and are low by $10K, they still get the bid, but their payroll might be half what a reputable company would have to pay, so their profit margin is "better".. are the cabinets poor quality? maybe..maybe not..

[NuttyFluffers]

41. isn't there BBB (better business bureau) to do this research, too?

couldn't you contact them to find out how well XYZ company follow regulations, check their previous work, and see how long they've been in business serving the community?

abuot the school board thing, i honestly don't know what can be done about that. if someone is truly set on the lowest bid sans reason, well there's not much you can do. but i say try to make the search based on quality, project knowledge, and possibly experience. that way you get the best product for your long-term investment. last thing you want to do when investing huge sums of money for a device that should last many years is to go with the cheapest crap offered. very bad customer savvy.

[Zinfandel]

32. Bush has no plans to ever penalize employers...it keeps wages low

and greedy corporations can fuck over the workers who have no where to complain...the real issues are getting Americans to recognize it's NOT the workers fault coming in taking their jobs, its the administration and the corporations who are encouraged, not discouraged from doing so.

Since the only thing that would keep employers from doing so is large fines for every single undocumented workers and it goes up with each violation...However, BushCo, even if it were to somehow become law would never enforce it, except perhaps they would use against a democratic company and exploit it that reguard.

If a law were to pass, then Bush would no doubt grant amnesty to the all the undocumented workers, so the corporations wouldn't be in violation and he would convince the same repug workers that is its in their best interest, because it would keep prices low...repug workers of course always vote against their best interest...all it will take to distract them form their own best interest are the words 'Abortion" and "Gays" and then they'll come out in force and donate big to the republicans.

[SoCalDem]

35. Don't forget about the election-year favorite..

Ted Kennedy is going to take your guns away :).. That;s always good for a few votes:)

[PsN2Wind]

34. I agree with you

As someone that has done those jobs that "citizens won't do".
If employers of illegals were penalized for hiring them or prosecuted for not paying into the treasury the withheld FICA and income tax the wages would be at a level that citizens would do them.
I've advocated pulling the license of contractors that hire illegals for years but don't see it as a likelihood.
If I'm hiring illegals I can easily beat any legitimate bid by 10 or 15%, and even if paying the minimum wage, rather than scale, be effectively paying less than minimum because of what I'm holding back on FICA, income taxes, WORKERS COMP, etc.
As for those that always show up to say "who's going to mow our lawns", Hey! the fresh air and sunshine will do you good!

[upi402]

40. 100% agreement here! Thank you.

I got so MAD at my Democratic precinct meeting that I walked out. They were pushing for easing restrictions on Mexican workers. They had 3 speakers who all made the specious claim that anyone opposed was racist.

And THIS was in the run-up to the 2004 "election". We were on the short bus and the passengers were drivin'!

[Pushed To The Left]

43. Cheap labor conservatism

This is a common enemy I think we can all agree on. The immigration issue has become too divisive and too racial. In my opinion, it's an economic issue more than anything else. I think if we all talked about this issue on a practical level, we would find that a lot of us who think we disagree with eachother actually agree!