Justice, Speech, Perception, Society

[omega minimo]

This is really pathetic. We have a recurring cast of characters with readymade mindgames and bully ("but I'm the innocent victim here") tactics and brave DUers stepping up to waste their time trying to make sense with them.... a few voices are a breath of fresh air.... one old timer that I affectionately refer to now as "ever the antagonist" ;) comes off rough but at least has INFORMED opinions and attempts actual discussion.

The point has been proven here that SIMPLY BY POSTING SOME QUOTES out come the sharks to bloody the waters so no one can read the damn thing..............

There are some important statements here that we could look at together and MAYBE LEARN SOMETHING if we could drop the assumptions and attitude and the schoolyard "if you don't show up after school I know yer a chicken" bullshit.

For example:

"Justice meant maintaining white power just as misogyny fuels the woman-hating spectacle of porn, defined as sex. White men directed their rage at enslaved and subjugated people even as those very people were left powerless to defend themselves without deadly consequences."

"That men scrutinize women's bodies more closely after viewing pornography is, at first blush, a neutral point in terms of free speech. But this scrutiny is not separable from the fact that, in a professional setting, men hear less of what women have to say after viewing pornography. Other studies confirm that pornography has the ability to delegitimize women. After viewing either traditional pornography or nonpornograhic slasher films, men have been shown to view women as significantly less than equal and to display less sympathy with statements about sexual equality than they had before. Exposure to aggressive pornography also inclines men to disbelieve survivors' allegations of rape, and to believe instead rape myths, including the myth that women tend to lie about sexual assault." (pp. 125-126) ...by Michelle J. Anderson

THIS ONE IS IMPORTANT FOLKS. If some of youse drop your assumptions and simply consider the social implications of what's being said here without jumping to all your conclusions and killing the thread (AGAIN) just think about it.

Otherwise, once again, the point has been proven:

"Leftist males who are threatened by feminism or female leadership within progressive movements can find reassurance in the rhetoric of libertarianism used to justify the inevitability of the sex industry and that a patriarchal order of things is left unchallenged somewhere."

And here's one of my fave replies above:

"How is their movement any different than those that would ban violent video games or otherwise curtail freedom of expression?"

:rofl: :rofl:

Step back for just a minute and think abou the notion that some of us equate freedom of expression with "violent video games." No really-- I mean OBJECTIVELY. Oh right, the Framers were prognosticating "Grand Theft Auto" when they drafted the Constitution.

These pathetic non-discussions are just as predictable as ping pong-- back and forth and back and forth, taking up space.

IF YOU DON'T WANT TO DISCUSS THE OP, DON'T TRY TO KILL THE THREAD WITH MINDGAMES AND FEIGNED INNOCENT INSULTS.

[beam me up scottie]

1. You act like this is a political

forum where all issues should be open for rational and reasonable discussion.

No sacred cows, right?

[undergroundpanther]

4. Scottie there are some people

Here that do not even want the idea of porn as a degradation issue discussed. They are so threatened by the discussion the kill the thread or sidetrack it.I have seen it myself here.

[beam me up scottie]

5. Yeah, I'm still picking their buckshot outta my jockeys as we speak.

Stings, but we get used to it after a while, right?

[omega minimo]

7. No

We disappear

[beam me up scottie]

9. Yep.

That's the idea, isn't it?

Back to the ghetto, where you're neutralized and dismissed the way O'Reilly dismisses "feminazis".

Not this chick.

[omega minimo]

11. Nope

Not an "idea"-- more of an involuntary automatic reflex........like mental flatulence.

But REALLY LOUD AND STINKY!!!!!!!!

[beam me up scottie]

14. Yes.

Nobody gets to go beyond the conditioned responses because it's not allowed.

So much for the liberal progressive left.

[omega minimo]

46. OCD

[undergroundpanther]

10. And when I get a bit of buckshot my way

I use my claws and gut them,Because I don't care if some dude who is addicted to pictures of relationships because he's too addicted to a fantasy to meet a real person and relate..gets upset or"offended"..They all kinda shrivel up when they realize I got bigger claws than their little pellet guns.And enough anger to burn their world down to soot,(smirk)

I don't care what pro porn people think about me. Because I'm not addicted to porn or to pleasing defensive addicted egos, I form relationships with human beings and I in turn require to be an equal to anyone I relate to...If a person I relate to refuses to see me as an equal,well I let them know they are inferior than.They made their choice.Not my fault if their quivering ego don't like the results.

[beam me up scottie]

13. You're a lot stronger than most, UP.

Because of everything you've been through.

Many women are conditioned to care, and they don't even realize it.

That's what's so fucking infuriating about this topic, we are only preaching to the choir, nobody else has the stomach to sit through that.

[undergroundpanther]

17. Cowardice

runs deep

There was a lady who studied a very misogynistic tribe called the Yanomano.

She said for one part of the population(men) to learn dominance and to feel entitled,
The other half of the population(women) had to be conditioned from birth into accepting subservience,cowardice and dependency.And to believe it was their 'role'..

This kinda made it clear.I had to never be ANYONES inferior.

Also this thread may not get many respondents but remember who knows how many people are READING this thread who may not say anything but take something away from it.And how many people might be helped to reject the conditioning of subservience by the stuff we say.
This also applies to the way people bow down to authoritarians too.What people don't get is all authoritarianism creates a divided master/slave population.Many men are slaves to dominant men and become like the woman forced to swallow cum except the dick in the mans face is his boss or a Ceo robbing him of the days of his life for cheesy wages..Every vertical hierarchical structure is a crazy making game that abuses power and consent.

[beam me up scottie]

23. There was an awesome article that was the subject of one of these

long locked threads, I can't remember exactly, but basically the argument was, why can't the left realize that the porn industry IS BIG CORPORATE WHORISM at its worst?

Why are we the champions of the oppressed in every other industry except for this one?

Why are we mute about THIS industry, when all others we take on fearlessly?

[undergroundpanther]

34. Because

one half of the population Has been granted a generational place of domination and the other of submission and the submissive have no role models of strength in their own genders that can show them how to not care.The dominant conditioned half of the population will not stand for it because they so DEPEND on the sub missives filling a role of servant object for them.I mean how can some asshole feel dominant if he cannot top anyone and feel superior to them?

Men are going to have to fix themselves and either become human equals or let go of that master-hood masculinity domination bullshit.
And it is us women who can force the issue by NOT CARING about their "pain" and shame or whatever,until they prove they are ready to treat us as equals.The burden of proof is on the men who have violated women's humanity with their dominance.No one is owed trust or caring from anyone else..especially people they victimize and pretend it is not victimizing..

[bloom]

47. That is one of the sad things

about this whole thing - that the http://www.hustlingtheleft.com/ site brings out. What is up with Amy Goodman not challenging this? Allowing herself to be used by Hustler and letting Flynt and the whole industry slide. I expect more.


And I think the person who started the site felt like this and that is why she put the site together.

[omega minimo]

6. Isn't there A RANGE of opinion?

How can we tell-- if we NEVER HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DISCUSS the subject.

There are knowns and there are unknowns. There are known knowns and unknown unknowns.

Or sumthin.

[beam me up scottie]

8. I would really like to explain how I perceive

much of it, but I don't get the chance, not here.

And I doubt I ever will.

Not when people do searches on your name and use anything you posted previously against you.

In other forums outside of here, we've had some great discussions about mainstream porn and why it is what it is.

There are a lot of men who ask the same questions.

[undergroundpanther]

19. Range?

I think the lack of response to this thread here shows the"range"
If the bullies can't dominate they will not discuss.
I think you answered your own question.

[atommom]

44. That would be nice!

There are a lot of discussions we don't seem to be able to have here.

[undergroundpanther]

2. Good thread!

http://www.oneangrygirl.net/You_are_what_you_eat.html


When I do public talks on pornography and the feminist critique of the commercial sex industry, I describe -- but do not show -- these kinds of videos. I explain the other conventions of the industry, such as “double penetration,” the common practice in which a woman is penetrated by two men’s penises, vaginally and anally, at the same time, and in some of those scenes the woman also performs oral sex on a third man at the same time. I explain that virtually every sex scene ends with a man or men ejaculating onto a woman, most often in the face, what the industry calls a “facial.”

Many of the people in the audience, particularly the women, tell me that they find it difficult to hear about these things, even when the acts are described with the kind of clinical detachment I try to maintain. One woman approached me after a lecture and said, “What you said was important, but I wish I hadn’t been here. I wish I didn’t know what you told us. I wish I could forget it.”

For many of the women who feel so defeated by knowing, the most distressing part doesn’t seem to be simply learning what is in the videos but knowing that men gain pleasure from what is in the videos. They ask me, over and over, “Why do men like this? What do you guys get from this?” They want to know why the mostly male consumers spend an estimated $10 billion a year on pornography in the United States
and $56 billion around the world.

It is an important question with, no doubt, complex answers. What does is say about our society when men will take home a tape like “Blow Bang #4” and watch it, and masturbate to it. What does it say about our society’s conception of sexuality and masculinity that large numbers of men can find pleasure in watching a young woman gag while a penis is pushed into her throat followed by six men ejaculating on her face and in her mouth? Or that other men, who might find that scene too extreme, prefer to watch one man have sex with a woman that begins with tender words and endswith “Do you want me to fuck you in the ass?” and ejaculation on her breasts? What does it say that such a video, made for men to masturbate to, is considered classy and upscale?

[beam me up scottie]

3. WHOA! YOU JUST SHOT OLD BESSIE!

:rofl:

You go, UP.

[beam me up scottie]

12. You really take on all that, UP?

I'm impressed.

What do the men say?


On edit, so much for the Dworkin fallacy:

The humanity of men

To be clear: I don’t hate men. I don’t hate myself. I am talking about masculinity, not the state of being a male human. I am talking about men’s behavior.

Feminists are often accused of hating men. Radical feminists in the anti-pornography movement are accused of being the most man-hating of the feminists. And Andrea Dworkin is typically held up as the most fanatical of the fanatics, the ultimate castrating feminist. I have read Dworkin’s work, and I do not think she hates men. Neither does she. Here’s what Dworkin has written about men:

“I don’t believe rape is inevitable or natural. If I did, I would have no reason to be here . If I did, my political practice would be different than it is. Have you ever wondered why we are not just in armed combat against you? It’s not because there’s a shortage of kitchen knives in this country. It is because we believe in your humanity, against all the evidence.”

[undergroundpanther]

15. They back down

Because I treat them like scum the minute they try to marginalize me and I don't debate their points or give them replies once they pull the shit games with me. I post my points over and over,and I don't even reply to any insulting or rude or manipulative posters.It's like I do not grant them an existence.I don't excuse or TOLERATE assholes .They may cajole with each other yes,but they will lose steam if they can't even get me to respond to it.Bullies cannot stand being ignored.They know I know I know it is DEFENSIVE huddling. Like a bunch of frustrated chimps screeching they defend their little fantasies and try to claim as if it had any merit to people outside their own kind. It's pathetic really. After all most of the attacks on these kinds of threads are DEFENSIVE.Don't take the bait. They are scared shit less of being seen as inferior to women.To them it's like castration to be disregarded.
Post your info, post your thoughts and do not bother with responding to the trollish little addicts.Just post on YOUR terms and ignore the offensive replies.Cut off all offensive posters the minute they play ignorant or pretend to joke or anything show no tolerance for anyone playing you as a lesser being..

[beam me up scottie]

16. There may be an innocent in there

but we can't recognize them.

Again, I think that's the idea.


Put us on the defensive and use our responses to vilify us.


Other baiters in other forums use the same tactic.

[undergroundpanther]

18. The innocents

Will make efforts show some innocent ignorance and will not act like the others, Just observe and detach emotionally..Often the innocents know what being rude is,they are the ones that don't act rude.And they have the courage to aopologize for miscommunications..when they are wrong and can put aisde thier defenses and be civil. Often the innocents pm you because they too are frustrated by the assholes undermining discussion..

[beam me up scottie]

21. Exactly.

It's the impression that they are going for.
They immediately turn it into a debate between the purist feminazis for censorship and mandatory castration against the innocent guys next door with a playboy or two under their mattress.

I've had friends, FRIENDS fer chrissake, think that I am anti-porn because they never stayed in one of those threads long enough to realize the truth.

I petitioned hard for the feminist group because there needs to be a safe place on DU to discuss some issues, but I don't post there because I agree with the Great O on this, we cannot get anywhere by preaching to the choir or segregating ourselves in ghettos.

[undergroundpanther]

25. The heart of porn

Is about INEQUALITY

The defenses of pornography typically revert to the most superficial kind of liberal individualism that shuts off people from others, ignores the predictable harms of a profit-seeking industry that has little concern for people, and ignores the way in which we all collectively construct the culture in which we live.

I have no interest in telling people where there sexual imaginations must end up. But I would like to be part of a conversation about the direction in which we think our sexual imaginations can move.

So, I am afraid of the sex that pornography creates because it hurts people. But I am not afraid of talking about an alternative to the cruelty and brutality of the pornography industry. I need that conversation. I can’t do this on my own. I’m not smart enough and I’m not strong enough. I need help. I know the direction I want to move, but I stumble on the way. I have made mistakes that have hurt others and hurt myself. I can correct some of those mistakes on my own, but none of us can do this completely on our own.

So, can we start talking about how to move our sexual imaginations toward respect, toward empathy, toward connections based on equality not domination? Can we give up enough of our fear of the unknown to try to imagine together what that might look like?

http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/%7Erjensen/freelance/justprudes.htm

[beam me up scottie]

29. Now he GETS it.

I think a lot of men would, if given the chance.
Hell, maybe lot of them already do, I know a few.

But even that is complicated, of course, because women do not speak with one voice about pornography, nor any other issue. There are pro-pornography women who would contest much of what I have to say. All I can do is acknowledge the women who have helped me come to understand the issue, tell the truth as I see it, and ask men to take seriously this critique of the domination/subordination dynamic that is so common in pornography and, indeed, in the world.

The minute one begins to make such a critique, one can expect this response: Feminists who critique pornography are really just prudes at heart. Pornography’s opponents, we are told, are afraid of sex.

In one sense, that’s true. I am afraid of sex, of a certain kind. I’m afraid of much of the sex commonly presented in contemporary mass-marketed pornography. I am afraid of sex that is structured on a dynamic of domination and subordination. I am afraid of the sex in pornography that has become so routinely harsh that men typically cannot see the brutality of it thorough their erections and orgasms.

I’m not against sex or sexual pleasure. I’m against the kind of sex that is routinely presented in contemporary pornography. I’m against that kind of sex because it hurts people in the world today, and it helps constructs a world in which people -- primarily the most vulnerable people, women and children, both girls and boys -- will continue to be hurt.

[Behind the Aegis]

30. preaching to the choir

But, you may not be preaching to the choir. I had to remind another friend of mine why we do what we do (not on this topic, of course). I continue to fight and post in 'friendlier' places, because it's not who we are arguing with, but the hundreds (thousands?) of lurkers who read our posts and learn. So, don't underestimate the power of "preaching to choir" here. While, there are hundreds that post daily, they are even more that simply read.

[beam me up scottie]

33. But these always end up like B slasher movies.

You know what's going to happen and you just can't stand to watch the gore.

Except, it's not what they expect, and we never get to tell the story.

They destroy EVERY single thread about this subject.

I swear, try the experiment, O did.

Post something innocent like "I don't like porn" and watch the fucking train wreck.

[Behind the Aegis]

36. that is so true...

...I have always wanted to post "Israel" in the title and "is a country" in the body of the post. Talk about a gore-fest! (I have to hope someone doesn't see this and make this into an I/P situation and 'doom' this thread to the dreaded dungeon.)

As bad as it though, there are many people who read thoughtful and insightful posts (especially ones with additional information (links)). We never really know how many people are reading what we write and what they take away from it....so, even if preaching to the choir...I say preaching on, because there may be a non-choir member peeking into the "cloak room," who will decide to join the choir!

Have I beaten this choir analogy to death, yet? :)

[beam me up scottie]

37. Choirs should be beaten to death.

They're annoying.

The Israel post is an fun idea.

If you ever want to give it a whirl, let me know.

Kind of like "Watch this!"

[Behind the Aegis]

40. Goodness, you are in a playful mood tonight!

That is the second time you almost made me shoot water from my nose!

The resulting flamewar from such a post would result in a great schism...but the "wow" factor would be off the charts!

[beam me up scottie]

41. The night the lights went out on DU...

I think Omega Minimo will be the one who finally does that!

O is timid and shies away from controversy, as you know.

Last week was a real humdinger.

[Behind the Aegis]

42. I must have missed all the fireworks...I was tending business 'elsewhere'

We all have our fire-brand issues, but so do others, who only want to deceive and misconstrue any dissenting opinion. I have seen some good debates here, but usually, if one person steps out of line with what the "expected" position is, some will go ape-shit! But, I am sure you already knew that! :)

[beam me up scottie]

43. Yeah, I've stuck a toe in those waters.

I think I would drown after my first post-you are way braver than I.
Kind of like the time I accidentally posted in the Gungeon.

The funny thing is, somebody I don't know very well showed up tonight and made a comment about where was I when he needed defending.

I think I've defended just about every unpopular position on DU from scientology to the rights of pedophiles.

I have no idea what that was about.

[NMMNG]

20. Interesting

Where are all the men in this discussion? :shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

22. Covering their boys

You do realize we believe in mandatory castration at the age of twelve, right?

[Behind the Aegis]

24. Does that include the gay ones?

:)

:hi:

[beam me up scottie]

26. Not if you have proof.

:evilgrin:

I'm trying to think of what would be acceptable proof...

[Behind the Aegis]

32. Would my picture on a "Three Dollar bill" count?

:)

On edit: I own every Madonna CD, and then some...and Cher! Also Melissa Etheridge (does that make me a lesbian?). But if you have some hot guy you'd like me to try out...well, I'll give one for team! :evilgrin:

[beam me up scottie]

35. Quick! Tell me every thing you know about

Barbara Streisand starting...now!

Oh wait, you're okay, I forgot you were in on it, (wink wink), you're just from a different division.

[Behind the Aegis]

38. You made choke!

Actually, when it comes to Barbara Streisand, I am not just a bad gay man, I am a bad Jew! I can't stand her! I like her politics, but something about her annoys me to no end!

I am from a different division and the cheap bastards won't pay me for my time here!!! :evilgrin:

[beam me up scottie]

39. Well, of COURSE.

How do you think they got so good with all that money?

[undergroundpanther]

27. Lol

However I would support castration of rapists and child molestors(as a surgical procedure in a hospital) if the justice system wasen't so corrupted..

[NMMNG]

28. I myself would vote for 10

Can't be too careful you know. :evilgrin:

[beam me up scottie]

31. Tis true.

Either worship Cher or else...snip snip

[omega minimo]

45. Back to the secret hideout

to practice hand signals and plan the next lamefest



:wow: