HEY FREEPERS: Read This and WEEP!! Re: Rise of the U.S. Fourth Reich-->

[Dr. Jones]

I LOVE to see Freeper's minds melt when one of their own speaks the TRUTH about the Bush regime. Their minds just sorta short circuit and they go into meltdown. In this case, the author of this thought-provoking article is a Southern Baptist preacher.

There IS HOPE...more people are waking up and realizing what's going on here. Question is, is it too late or can we still do something about it. I WISH these things could have come out BEFORE the elections...but would people have listened even if they did?

ARE WE WITNESSING THE RISE OF THE FOURTH REICH?

By Pastor Chuck Baldwin
February 7, 2006
NewsWithViews.com

...as a student of both the Bible and history, I believe we in America are living in times that are eerily reminiscent of the days leading up to the rise of the Third Reich. If after reviewing this thesis, the reader wants to dismiss its conclusions as insipid and irrelevant, he or she is certainly free to do so.

On the other hand, it would do the reader good to heed the words of George Santayana who said, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." If America is truly flirting with any semblance of the fallacious and fallen Reich (which I believe it is), it is incumbent upon each and every true American (especially Christians) to renounce, reject, and repudiate such flirtations as early and as vociferously as possible!

<snip>

It seems clear to me that the attitudes and actions of Nazi Germany's ministers and churches are being repeated in the United States today. To a large degree, Evangelicals have wrapped the Cross of Christ in the banner of the Republican Party. They quote Romans chapter 13 to justify their unflinching, yes, even blind support for President Bush. They are willing to surrender their freedoms and liberties so that President Bush might protect them. Pictures of the president almost universally line the halls and walls of our churches, Christian schools, and pastors' offices. They castigate and denigrate in the most caustic terms anyone who dares to challenge or even question President Bush. They are willing to let the president lead them into multiple wars, even wars of aggression, based solely on Bush's word. They refuse to hold the president accountable to the principles of our Constitution and Bill of Rights. It seems to me that President Bush has taken on the aura of an American Fuhrer in the minds of many Evangelicals.

Just how far are Evangelicals willing to allow Bush to go? They already support unbridled spying on American citizens. They have gladly surrendered their Fourth Amendment rights. Would they be willing to support the imprisonment of fellow Christians who don't support Bush if the Department of Homeland Security ordered it? I believe many would. And if so, how is that different from the attitudes of Christians in Nazi Germany?

Read the full article at http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/cwarchive_020706.html

edited to comply with copyright rules per Moderator request

[babylonsister]

1. Holy mackeral! K&N. nt

[Mr_Spock]

2. It's nice to see reality hit home for at least a few of them...

I'm still quite worried - especially after reading this article where the other side has these same fears...

[SammyWinstonJack]

3. !

:kick:

[mwb970]

4. Great article!

But can it get through to True Believers?

[donco6]

5. Wow.

Suppose we can get this guy to move to Colo Spgs and run for Hefley's seat? He's got to be better than the other Nazi Repugs that will be elected in that district.

[Wind Dancer]

15. You need to read more about him.

He hates gays.

Read my post below.

[FreedomAngel82]

24. So I wonder why this article though

[donco6]

35. And what Repug from Colo Spgs doesn't?

I am being tongue-in-cheek! But if you have to have a Republican in Congress to replace Joel Hefley who is retiring, (and with Colorado Springs as the district, there's no chance for anything else), at least you could get someone who doesn't think Bush is the Second Coming.

Everyone in El Paso County hates gays, so that's not even an issue.

[Nostradammit]

46. Not everyone

Maybe most, but in the interest of Truth ~

not everyone.

I know this for a fact.

[Extend a Hand]

6. Thx

This one goes to mom!

[Che_Nuevara]

7. He said it himself:

He succumbed to the comparison temptation.

First off, I have yet to see a single example of:

"They quote Romans chapter 13 to justify their unflinching, yes, even blind support for President Bush. They are willing to surrender their freedoms and liberties so that President Bush might protect them. Pictures of the president almost universally line the halls and walls of our churches, Christian schools, and pastors' offices."

But that aside, there are other dictatorships that this administration much more closely resembles. The fact of the matter is that National Socialism was not a clerical or even religious movement; the churches of Germany were reduced to worshiping Hitler just so that they would not be eradicated. Indeed, many churches in Germany were vandalised, condemned, or destroyed between 1933 and 1939.

This author makes two mistakes: 1) He says that, since A's followers and B's followers have something in common, A and B must have something in common, a clear logical fallacy, and 2) he forgets, like most history amateurs, that there were and are other dictatorships than Hitler's.

[BillZBubb]

You have made quite a few logical errors yourself, Che

First off, "I have yet to see...". It doesn't matter what you have yet to see. That is pure anecdotal observation on your part. Clearly, you don't live in an area with a lot of Baptists and Evangelicals. Otherwise, you are blind as blind can be.

Secondly, he didn't say National Socialism was a religious movement. That's not his point. Many churches and religious leaders in Germany DID SUPPORT HITLER willingly. Many, naturally, did not. But the author is talking about US Evangelicals, and they do worship Bush. If you missed the Romans quote, listen to Falwell sometime if you can stomach it.

You have made several other mistakes. You claim the author "forgot" there are other dictators. I'm sure he didn't. But I am also sure he knows a lot more than you about the involvement of church leaders in the rise to power of National Socialism in Germany AND the Evangelical obsession with Bush.

[FreedomAngel82]

25. If you don't want to stomach Falwell just

go to http://www.biblegateway.com and you can type in Romans thirteen.

[flyarm]

30. When rabbis liked Hitler: A tale for the Mideast

many supported hitler... to their own demise!! fly


When rabbis liked Hitler: A tale for the Mideast

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/EL09Aa01.html

Nazi ideology may be gaining popularity in the Islamic world, but Jews nonetheless should show a bit more understanding. It was not so long ago that the orthodox rabbis of Berlin liked Adolf Hitler for precisely the same reason that many Muslims do today, namely as an antidote to moral decay in the modern world. No, this is not an out-take from The Producers. The story is told in Mark Shapiro's recent book, Between the Yeshiva World and Modern Orthodoxy: The Life and Works of Rabbi Jehiel Jacob Weinberg.

Six months after Hitler seized power in 1933, several leading Berlin rabbis wrote to him pledging loyalty to Germany. The rabbis argued that they, the orthodox, shared the Nazis' moral values, as opposed to decadent Bolshevism and libertinism, as opposed to the left-wing Jews who made up much of the avant garde. The rabbis promised Hitler that they would do their best to persuade Jews around the world to end a boycott on German products. In retrospect that seems like a terrible mistake. Still, one would like to know whether these rabbis, given complete foresight, still would have preferred Hitler to, say, Barbra Streisand.

Nor was the rabbis' letter to Hitler entirely exceptional. A majority of Italy's Jews joined Benito Mussolini's Fascist party, which espoused an ideology similar to Hitler's, but without the Jew-hating. Faced with a catastrophic shift in values in the wake of World War I, many European Jews looked for a repressive government willing to impose traditional values.

[Hubert Flottz]

8. The preachers with the pictures of Bush in their churches need to

Read up on how Hitler treated the churches after they helped him get his unlimited power. I hope they all get the same!

[unhappycamper]

9. Dr. Jones:

Please be aware that DU copyright rules require that excerpts of copyrighted material be limited to four paragraphs and must include a link to the original source.

You have one hour from the time of your original post to make changes.

In the future, please insure your posts adhere to this standard.

TIA,

unhappycamper
DU Moderator

[Maraya1969]

10. For the Biblically impaired, read Romans 13 at this link

http://www.cforc.com/kjv/Romans/13.html

[RaleighNCDUer]

18. I've always wondered about Romans 13 --

wouldn't that have been (supposedly) written at about the same time that the Roman emperors were feeding Christians to the lions?

This is an example of the rulers being God's representatives on earth?

I think that this passage was inserted at least two centuries later, after Constantine made Christianity the state religion, thereby making fidelity to the state synonymous with fidelity to God. Do we have any proof that it was not written in the early 4th century, after Constantine and the consolidation of the church in 312AD, rather than in @ 120AD?

The foundation of the Catholic church was not in the early Christian churches, but in the Roman Empire.

[FreedomAngel82]

26. It just basically states

how we're supposed to follow laws and be good represenitives of our faith. I always use that to support the Constitution and our laws with that. Not Bush's laws.

[RaleighNCDUer]

32. I don't see that.

13:1
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
13:2
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
13:3
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil.


And this was when the 'powers that be' were feeding Christians to the lions.

Right.

[EVDebs]

34. Paul, writing to the Romans, didn't want to pissoff too many people

knowing that the Romans worshipped the Emperor as a god on earth. How to put the message across without getting yourself killed (?) seems to be his main objective, while still getting across that even the Emperor is subject to higher authority.

Consider his audience. He wasn't letting the powersthatbe off that easy.

[Maraya1969]

44. Was Romans written by the Romans or by Paul? It seems according

to previous posts that the Romans took over a couple hundred years after the death of Jesus. (Well, whoever said that they were feeding Christians to the lions at that time.)

[zeemike]

49. Just a point of understanding

The book of Romans was actually a letter Paul wrote to the Roman Christian church
Paul was not a disciple of Jesus and in fact never met him. He was brought into the church later to make Christianity acceptable to the Romans and others that would have destroyed Christianity had not someone like Paul made it OK.

[EVDebs]

50. Attributed to having been written by Paul around 56-57 AD

http://atheism.about.com/library/glossary/western/bldef_paul.htm

[Spiffarino]

38. I guess Romans 13 didn't apply to Bill Clinton

...or to Democrats in general. :eyes:

What a load. These so-called Christians gladly give up their God-given liberty based on a paragraph in one of Paul's letters...to ROME!

I hope Jesus comes back soon. Then we can watch as He slaps them around, all the while yelling, "Thanks for working so hard to make me look bad!"

[EVDebs]

51. Eschatology based upon misinterpretation, leading to more errors

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=215343

God forgive them for they know not what they do !

[Maraya1969]

43. Wow that is interesting. I bet Biblical scholars would know.

[JohnyCanuck]

11. The Nazification of America

The Reichstag Fire Syndrome occurs whenever a democracy is destroyed by creating a law-and-order crisis and offering as a "solution" the abdication of civil liberties and states' rights to a powerful but unaccountable central dictator. The men of wealth who put the tyrant into power are then able to reap obscene war profits.

The Nazification of America by Dr. Norman Livergood

[Che_Nuevara]

14. Now THAT is a reasonable comparison

between the US and Nazi Germany.

[AndyTiedye]

33. That is How they Operate

[ClayZ]

12. K and R

:kick:

[Wind Dancer]

13. Interesting conservative pastor.

He makes good points re: Hitler's use of the churches to promote his agenda. Unfortunately, he fails to mention how gays were treated by those very same institutions.

After reading more on his other beliefs, I have little respect for him. He is a fundie that attacks gays yet is angry with Bush for using the churches for political gain. Would he be willing to protect gays from the Dept. of Homeland Security? I doubt it.

BUSH PROMOTING HOMOSEXUAL AGENDA: DO CONSERVATIVES CARE?

-snip-

Bush has increased funding for homosexual propaganda campaigns under the guise of "health education" programs.

The list of Bush's pro-homosexual policies and decisions would literally fill a book. In fact, the GOP's habit of promoting the homosexual agenda has become so redundant that even staunch Republicans such as Gary Bauer, James Dobson, Phyllis Schlafly, and Ken Connor recently expressed their disappointment and concern.

However, instead of merely expressing disappointment and concern, Christian conservatives need to wake up to the reality that at the national level the GOP is not their friend. It has no intention of promoting their beliefs and only uses them to garner votes.

Furthermore, conservatives need to get over their sophomoric infatuation with G. W. Bush and start telling the truth about his dismal record regarding the homosexual agenda. more

http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin112.htm

[FreedomAngel82]

27. Oy

Where in the world does he get Bush having "pro-homosexual polices"? Does he not know about Alito and Roberts? Good grief! And what is with this "homosexual agenda" crap? Everyone should be equal under the law! When blacks and whites wanted to marry and have that legal did they have an agenda too? :mad:

[Wind Dancer]

29. This guy is dangerous.

He scares me more than Falwell and the like. Look how many on this thread have been fooled thinking he's one of "us". I wish people would take the time to read more about this "nut" before endorsing his distorted comparison to Hitler.

He uses religion just like others, including Hitler, to promote hatred for gays and I'm quite sick of it. :mad:

[sandnsea]

40. I don't think anybody planned on electing him for anything

Rather I think it was just a point that even a rabid right winger is seeing how dangerous this Bush cult is. That's why we always have to be hyper-vigilant about cults of personality. But as far the comments particular to the dangers of Bush, we should use this guy as much as we can. Even gays. Because you'll be leaps and bounds ahead if we can at least get this christofasicsm out of the picture.

[femrap]

16. K & R...

Maybe we should print this out and put on windshields of cars in church parking lots on Sunday....he makes some excellent points.

I am forwarding this to people in my family who make listen to a Pastor from Florida over me!

[Twist_U_Up]

17. picture of bush in full military garb here:

[Pacifist Patriot]

22. There is one big difference between them though...

Hitler actually served in the military and saw combat. (WWI) We all know what Bush was doing during the Vietnam War...oh wait, we don't because he was AWOL.

[PleadTheFirst]

19. K&R

[yodermon]

20. like this

[Raffi Ella]

21. ...

This makes me so angry and SO upset.I can sign petitions and protest and do all the things we do here at D.U. but if Kerry,Kennedy et al in Washington don't stand up and say that this is what is going on and DEMAND something be done to stop it then what are WE to do!??
The public is frikkin asleep!!

DO SOMETHING KERRY!KENNEDY!CLINTON!CARTER!REID!DO SOMETHING!

[FreedomAngel82]

23. Very good

I still know people who like to claim Hitler wasn't Catholic. :eyes: Maybe not in reality but in the minds of the German people. Why else are there so many pictures of him with Catholic church leaders? It's really quite scary as a liberal Christian. :\ I'm so thankful my grandmother on my dad's side has finally seen through him. She used to be a pretty good Bush supporter even up until the Katrina event but last Thanksgiving she said she no longer believes him because of his lies (I don't know how she figured that out though) and even doubts his "faith."

[Clara T]

28. Gott Mit Uns

Rec'd

[linazelle]

31. W--O--W. Talk about being on target...I just hope it's seen by "them". nt

[RazzleDazzle]

36. Here's another one of their own sounding a grave and somber alarm

Paul Craig Roberts: Conservatives Endorse the Fuhrer Principle
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x191386
Link: http://www.antiwar.com/roberts/?articleid=8558

I like the way seafan excerpted it:

Our leader über alles
by Paul Craig Roberts

February 17, 2006

Last week's annual Conservative Political Action Conference signaled the transformation of American conservatism into brownshirtism. A former Justice Department official named Viet Dinh got a standing ovation when he told the CPAC audience that the rule of law mustn't get in the way of President Bush protecting Americans from Osama bin Laden.

Former Republican congressman Bob Barr, who led the House impeachment of President Bill Clinton, reminded the CPAC audience that our first loyalty is to the U.S. Constitution, not to a leader. The question, Barr said, is not one of disloyalty to Bush, but whether America "will remain a nation subject to, and governed by, the rule of law or the whim of men."

The CPAC audience answered that they preferred to be governed by Bush. According to Dana Milbank, a member of the CPAC audience named Richard Sorcinelli loudly booed Barr, declaring: "I can't believe I'm in a conservative hall listening to him say Bush is off course trying to defend the United States." A woman in the audience told Barr that the Constitution placed Bush above the law and above non-elected federal judges.

These statements gallop beyond the merely partisan. They express the sentiments of brownshirtism. Our leader über alles.

snip

There are only two reasons for Bush to refuse to obey the law. One is that he is guilty of illegitimate spying for which no warrant would be issued by the FISA court. The other is that he is using "national security" to create unconstitutional powers for the executive.

Civil libertarian Harvey Silverglate writing in the Boston Phoenix says that Bush's grab for "sweeping, unchecked power in direct violation of a statute would open a Pandora's box of imperial possibilities." In short, it makes the president a dictator.

snip

The Bush regime is asserting the Fuhrer Principle, and Americans are buying it, even as Bush declares that America is at war in order to bring democracy to the Middle East.

http://www.antiwar.com/roberts/?articleid=8558

[roguevalley]

37. its impossible to tell you how conservative this man is. I got somehow on

his mailing list and he's FED UP TO HERE with the way things are. He's an important voice for truth on his side because his history is so different from his views now. He cares about the country more.

[radio4progressives]

39. k&r Excellent post..

[qanda]

41. He's been speaking against Bush for a very long time

His words should be shared with every Christian that supports Bush.

[Initech]

42. Wow, that is awesome!

[Ladyhawk]

45. I can't help but equate unquestioning belief in religion to unquestioning

belief in any authority figure. I'm sure this writing will be valuable for liberal Christians trying to set right-wing Christians back on the straight and narrow, but after reading the first few paragraphs, my mind is ringing with the "Benediction" from Dan Barker's Friendly Neighborhood Atheist CD:

Pride goeth, so the Christians say,
Before a mighty fall.
But me, I've never felt that way.
I never stand so tall
As when I say I'm proud to be
An atheist, oh yes!
It helps me stand for so much more
And fall for so much less!

Unfortunately, I cant help but notice that the religious are easily led. :( As Voltaire wrote, “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”

[NMMNG]

47. Excellent article! K&R

[banana republican]

48. From a Baptise no less... Puts us Lutherans to shame..... n/t

[mnhtnbb]

52. Chuck Baldwin's bio

http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/sketch.html

[Nikki Stone 1]

53. EXCELLENT! (I think Jesus would approve, though I don't talk to him)

:)