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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:48 PM
Original message
Attorney on Ed Schultz' Show just said he researched TX law, and
the reason the WH Drs are so involved in this Whittington case is that they're scared! TX law states "If a victim dies "WITHIN ONE YEAR" of a shooting incident, the shooter can be charged with involuntary manslaughter!

This was the attorney Ed always calls Norman Goldman.
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wakeme2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. Can you spell PARDON
:grr:
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Cheney CAN'T be pardoned for a STATE offense.
And Texas pardons require a finding of guilt AND time served. Clemency doesn't come easy in TEXAS.
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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. Since when did these guys care about states' rights...
unless it means keeping the uppity brown people under control?
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
58. Or they'll just use money
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wakeme2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
26. And the Problem in Texas getting a Pardon for Dickie is.... nt
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. He has to be found Guilty first AND serve time.
The pardon system in Texas doesn't work PRE-EMPTIVELY like the President's pardon power.
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. And the jurisdiction of the crime
at the Armstrong's Ranch... Well hell not the Armstrongs, we don't like people bothering them... He will never see any time with this.....
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never_get_over_it Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #9
35. President can pardon anybody for anything
except impeachment
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Sadly, you're right. n/t
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. I don't think he can pardon for state offenses
Isn't that a complete violation of federalism?
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never_get_over_it Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. Article 2
Section 2 - Civilian Power over Military, Cabinet, Pardon Power, Appointments

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

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never_get_over_it Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. Ok I'm completely unsure now
because I have been "researching" this on line and I'm finding it both ways I'm going to keep looking and get back to you....
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. The key is "offenses against the United States"
I think that this offense is an offense against the State of Texas, not against the United States.
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never_get_over_it Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. The Nixon Pardon was upheld and he wasn't even charged
with anything against state or federal - I'm going back to my belief that the pardon power is unlimited except for impeachment

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/pardons4.htm

Murphy v. Ford

Murphy, a Michigan attorney, brought suit for a declaratory judgment against President Gerald Ford invalidating the pardon on grounds that a pardon could not be legally granted to an individual who had not first been indicted or convicted of a crime. Chief Judge Fox said: "The fact that Mr. Nixon had been neither indicted nor convicted of an offense against the United States does not affect the validity of the pardon. Ex parte Garland, 4 Wall. (71 U.S.) 333. In that case the Supreme Court considered the nature of the President's Pardoning Power, and the effect of a Presidential pardon. Mr. Justice Field, speaking for the court, said that the Pardoning Power is 'unlimited,' except in cases of impeachment."


Have to think unlimited means unlimited....
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. This is definately a question for a lawyer
I will ask my dad and get back to you.
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never_get_over_it Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Great thanks
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. My dad believes that you are right but isn't completely sure
Edited on Tue Feb-14-06 07:41 PM by Hippo_Tron
He sid that he thinks that presidents have pardoned death row inmates at the end of their terms and that they were on there for state offenses.

Next time I see him, I'm going to ask a federal magistrate that I know who probably has a great deal of authority on this subject. If I remember I will PM you and let you know what I find out.

Funny how you learn something new every day, or at least something you thought you were sure about comes into question.
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DelawareValleyDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #47
55. From the Department of Justice web site
"Under the Constitution, the President's clemency power extends only to federal criminal offenses"

http://www.usdoj.gov/pardon /

Hope this helps
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. But the Republican governor can pardon.
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never_get_over_it Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #55
61. Thanks I saw that too
Edited on Tue Feb-14-06 11:49 PM by never_get_over_it
but it is in direct contradiction with the case against the Ford pardon of Nixon which was decided by the Supreme Ct who is the ultimate interpreter of the Constitution. So if Ford could pardon Nixon for crimes not even charged and have it up held I don't see why Bush couldn't pardon Cheney from a constitutional stand point. From a political stand point it would be really tough - I would think - remember the beating Clinton took over the Mark Rich case. There is some regulations in place to process pardons that I read about and they do most certainly appear to all be federal offenses but when I was reading about those regulatons it stated that it was not mandatory for a President to follow them....don't have the link to that any more though sorry.

OK on edit I found this: (I think I'm back to believing its Federal crimes only) or maybe this whole issue has driven me crazy - lol

http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=5001641459

The President's power to pardon is stated simply in the Constitution: The President "shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment."(9) By limiting pardons to "Offences against the United States," the Constitution means to place private civil and state criminal cases beyond the President's reach.(10) By excepting "Cases of Impeachment," the Constitution stays the President's hand when Congress is doing the prosecuting instead of the executive branch. The President cannot stop the House from impeaching a federal official, nor can he undo the punishment the Senate doles out upon conviction.(11)
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
57. Oh wow
That's big.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
23. They're probably trying to find some pre-disposed ailment to use
in the hearing if the guy does die within a year. In other words, the White House has access to this guys private records. Can you imagine how betrayed the family would be if they then turn around and claim that he had a bad heart to begin with so he died due to natural causes?
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JanusAscending Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-15-06 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #23
62. Many Dr's. on TV tonight said that they found nothing wrong with his heart
They did a heart catherization today, so that lets out that "EXCUSE"
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
2. Good catch

A very interesting little post!
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merbex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. If Whittington dies and they DON"T arrest Cheney it's open season
on hunters in Texas
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. how about just republican hunters
:eyes:
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LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. Raise your hand if you think Cheney will be charged with anything.
:thumbsdown:
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Not in this lifetime, he won't.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
40. That's a pretty little glamor bomb of a dog.
What breed?
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cdsilv Donating Member (883 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Pardon?
Can Bush pardon someone convicted under state law?
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shoelace414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Bush can Pardon anyone for anything
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. No, he can't
He can only pardon for federal offenses.
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. But The Repuke Governor of Texas Could pardon him if needed n/t
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Doesn't matter
He'd have to be found guilty first AND serve time (Texas pardons work differently). This means he would definitely either resign or be impeached.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Yes, IF there's still a Puke Gov. at the time!
Politics is getting stranger than normal in TX. I can't remember when Perry is up for re-election, but I'm thinking he could loose!!!!!
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AnneD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #10
31. They'll
seize the Armstrong ranch via eminent domain, make it a Federal quail preserve. The accident happened on Federal land and VOILA, Cheney gets a free pass. Gee y'all been watching the GOP for how long and haven't figured it out yet.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. No, but I'm not sure a firearms incident is a State violation.
I'm thinking it could be Federal under ATF control. I'm not sure, but there are some crimes that are automatically Federal.
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I wonder if Ronney Earle will get involved?
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ItsTheMediaStupid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. Manslaugher would be state
Weapons charges would be both federal and state. I'm not sure where the obstruction of justice charges would be filed.

If this was anybody but Cheney or some other powerful neo-con, they'd be in a world of shit right now.
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Sammy Pepys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. I doubt he'd be charged if Whittington died...
As I understand it, an involuntary manslaughter charge is only applicable in criminal cases...either criminal negligence or during the commission of a crime. I don't think you're going to make anything like that stick in this case.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Hmmm, Criminal Negligence is a possibility!
I really hope Harry lives and is just fine and able to go hunting again...with other people of course! If he dies, that's a whole new can of very nasty worms the WH is going to have to deal with!
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Sammy Pepys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Like I said...
I don't think you're going to get a criminal negligence charge to stick. People who get charged with things like that while hunting are fucking around..hunting out of season, firing on hunting buddies they think are actually deer, stuff like that. Cheney was firing at a legit target, and this guy Whittington (who isn't dead anyway at the moment) hadn't made an effort to identify his location. It would be a fruitless effort.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
41. Or so they say.
But maybe, just maybe, Cheney had been drinking and was mishandling his gun with the safety off. Maybe the guy was not that far away, and the gun was dropped, or Cheney stumbled. . . .
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-15-06 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #24
63. Or so they say. They had eighteen hours to catapult the
propaganda.

Husband is a hunter. He says the story is BS. All of them.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. i'm raising my hand -- just a zeitgest reading -- non-scientific --
there's blood in the water.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
53. Not for this.
Edited on Tue Feb-14-06 07:44 PM by RUMMYisFROSTED
But ole Pepper keeps his fingers in many pots.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
13. Ooooohhhh the IRONY!
Edited on Tue Feb-14-06 03:57 PM by NanceGreggs
At this point, I'm assuming Whittington is on life-support, which is why we aren't seeing photo-ops, hearing enthusiastic reports from family about how well he's doing, et cetera.

Now imagine this scenario: Within a few months, with no hope of recovery, the family decides to 'pull the plug'. Cheney then becomes vulnerable to manslaughter charges, because it's within the one-year period and the man's death is directly attributable to the shooting incident.

That means the WH and its minions has to rev up its 'culture of life' crapola, a la Terry Schiavo -- only THIS TIME, they have to do it KNOWING that they've already had their asses publicly whipped on that very issue!
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ItsTheMediaStupid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. Talk about a right to life battle
It would make the bruhaha over Terry Schiavo look like a church social.
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chalky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
29. Can you say "Sun Hudson"? Remember the Texas 1999 Futile Care Law
Edited on Tue Feb-14-06 04:47 PM by chalky
that the idjit in chief signed in?
If Whittington did end up in that state, that would be irony of EPIC proportions.


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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #29
43. Well, but HIS family could afford to keep him on life support. (eom)
Edited on Tue Feb-14-06 05:24 PM by tblue37
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SnowGoose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
25. Yea, and Cheney should have been ineligible to be VP
since both he and Bush were Texas residents (the hastily-arranged Wyoming residency was a sham on its face), but a judge said "oh heck, what's a little thing like the constitution between cronies?".

Sorry, ain't gonna happen. Wouldn't matter if Big Dick had been using a stolen gun, offed the guy right in the field, and emptied the guy's wallet before the body was cold.

Sad but true.
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #25
34. Which is the reason why I wanted to find out what kind...
of hunting license he had in TX. If it was a "resident's" license, he was toast. It was, however, a non-resident's license. (At least, that's the story they tell.)
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SnowGoose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-15-06 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #34
65. Whoa - good point!
I hadn't even thought of that.

I hope you'll pursue this and keep us updated on your findings. There are some noses I'd love to rub in this if he did indeed get a resident's hunting license.
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Virginian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #25
39. There is no term limit on the VP.
Cheney can be puppetmaster in the next administration, too. Something has to stick. Is this going to be it?

The Constitution specifies that both POTUS and VP can't be from the same state for the exact reason why Bush and Cheney shouldn't have been on the same ticket. They both have Texas oil interests as a driving force in their decisions.
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
28. I don't care if it's the Hague or Sam Houston State Penitentiary,
Cheney deserves some time!
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
32. So, he just stays out of TX...
and finds a state that won't extradite him.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
33. heh heh heh!
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RazzleDazzle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
37. Heheh. And at age 78, Whittington threatens to die every single day.
I love it.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
38. Not to mention the civil penalties
If this man dies, Cheney could be sued for "wrongful death," and even now, this seems like a clear case of negligence. They might be worried about losing all that Halliburton revenue.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
44. I know that the VP is immune from federal prosecution, state I don't know
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
45. well I'm pretty sure a very nice breathing machine will be found for
him. don't worry he won't be leaving this world any time soon....
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. He just had a heart attack.
So, I would say VP should worry.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
56. Oh wow!
But why aren't they letting the hospital doctors talk? What are they hiding?
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ariellyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
59. Can you say Terry Schiavo? They will vein feed that man for a year
to keep him alive. Watch.
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Tin Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-15-06 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #59
64. Agreed. They'll go Schiavo on Whittington...
Edited on Wed Feb-15-06 07:48 AM by Tin Man
...plug him in, then deploy their fundie minions into the fray as part of a "right to life" battle. :crazy:
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JudyM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-15-06 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
66. I'm betting the TX legislature changes that law within months. nt
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