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Here's the Damage a "PELLET" Gun can do

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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:05 PM
Original message
Here's the Damage a "PELLET" Gun can do
Edited on Tue Feb-14-06 12:24 PM by berni_mccoy
I can't believe the media is framing this as a pellet gun!!! WTF!?!?!

Here is the spread pattern of a 28g shotgun at 25 YARDS!!!!



on edit: the outer ring is 30" diameter.

This image comes from a site that is comparing plastic wadding vs fiber wadding. Not sure what Dead-Eye Dick used, but the difference isn't that much to the victim.

Here is a link to the originating site:


http://www.shotgun-insight.com/fibreVsPlasticSporterShe...


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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. Miami TV reporter showed the pellets and they are bigger then a bb


I was surprised at the size.

another report I read said the guy would keep the pellets in his body for the rest of his life.
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5X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. They aren't bigger than a bb unless you are shooting
at big game. For quail you would use number 7
or smaller shot.
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
63. He was using 7.5 according to the Fish & Game report
the one posted at SmirkingChimp
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TexasLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
17. bb's are shot using air
shotguns use gun powder and they are deadly weapons.
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. BB is a real size of shot - it's between Buck and birdshot
often used to shoot turkeys and geese. I think it became a convenient size to use in the air guns because it's just large enough to handle with fingers.
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Indy Lurker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
22. How ever long that may be. N/T
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
60. As far as i know the largest shot available for the 28 is # 6
He was shot with # 7 1/2's, they have an outside diameter of .100 or a little less.

They may have been reloads?
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threadkillaz Donating Member (453 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
66. Corpus Christi News Video of .28 Gauge Shotgun Demo
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. a .28 gauge is a lethal weapon
it won't cut you in half like a .12 gauge would, but the old texas repuke is lucky to be alive (if indeed he is alive).
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. Depending how close the guy was to Cheney........
when Cheney shot him would have a great deal to do with the shot pattern. If he was close to him, say 50 ft. it would be a tight, close pattern. From farther away the pattern would spread. It sounds as if Cheney was damned close to the guy when he fired so most of the shot probably hit him. The guy's lucky to be alive.
And they say it wasn't Cheney's fault! :eyes: You NEVER just turn and fire a gun without acquiring your target first. Cheney is an asshole, completely at fault. I'll bet he won't get too many more invitations to hunt, who the hell would want to be in his hunting party? :shrug: Not me, that's for sure.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
48. .28 gauge at 30 yards can kill
for sure
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TaleWgnDg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #18
65. "who the hell would want to be in his hunting party?" . . .
.

Your (rhetorical) query: "who the hell would want to be in his hunting party?"

Answer: mmm . . . Justice Antonin Scalia and his son! That's who! Uuummm, no, I won't go as far as to say (or wish) that it was Scalia who Cheney hit this time. Nope, I won't tread those waters!

.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
3. A good pic of a 28 gauge shotgun--er, "pellet gun":


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txindy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I've seen you post this several times. Please continue to do so.
I'm serious. This, along with the OP's target, get across the point very well. This was NOT Ralphie's BB gun.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. I have to leave to teach a class...
But thanks. I've been posting it as much as possible because I have fired a 28-gauge (and I like it) myself, and the misinformation from the media is driving me crazy.

I wish I could find an online video of someone firing one at clay birds; it might give people some idea of what one of these will do to a man's face.
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Paulie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
42. How about this Vid?
Edited on Tue Feb-14-06 02:23 PM by Paulie
maybe not.
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Paulie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
51. How about this Vid (try two)
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #51
57. Nice post!
Those clay pigeons go pretty far for an underhanded toss.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
56. you know had it been Al Gore there would be many photos
and live demonstrations of the killing capability of this weapon. <sigh>
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soup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
34. Thank you, janx!
That is NOT what I was expecting. For some reason, I had a vision of something along the lines of my son's pellet gun in mind.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
35. Someone should send that pic to Hannity.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
5. good - this is what I've been wondering
The guy was shot in the cheek, neck and chest. That's a spread of about twelve inches. So how far away would Dick have been? I know we can do some math here and pin this down.
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txindy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. It sure puts the lie to that nonsense about gravity at work, doesn't it?
Not unless gravity rains shotgun pellets down at someone sideways, that is. He was shot in the side, in the cheek, neck, and chest. Gravity had nothing to do with it. They didn't get far enough or high enough away from entry for gravity to begin working on bringing the pellets down. They were still headed OUT.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
61. spread could have been much larger
3/4 ounce 28 ga with 7 1/2 shot has around 300 pellets.
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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
64. depends on the gun
whether it was full choke, or modified, or whatever. depends on what shot was used. depends on the amount of powder, on the wad, on all sorts of things. there just isn't enough data available to make that call, really.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
7. that image doesn't tell me anything - what is the scale?
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Probably about the size of a large dinner plate.
A 12-gauge has a bigger spread, the the effect is essentially the same.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. From the site, the outer ring appears to be 30" diameter
which would make the inner ring at 20" diameter and is consistent with the results of an average spread of 19.75" at 25 yards.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Then that's too big
Based on the drawing on the report, the circle looked about 15" total which would be consistent with the first reports of 30' or 10 yards. In other words, no way Cheney wouldn't have known the guy was there and more likely a flat out weapon discharge of some sort. Maybe getting in or out of the vehicle, when the gun shouldn't have been loaded and flat out illegal.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. It is 15" radius, indicating that Whittington could have been hit
with an off-center shot where he only took half the pellets.
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Hobarticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
9. Again, basic ignorance of the media...Google's a wonderful thing, ABC!!!
A shotgun can fire "pellets" or "slugs". That doesn't make it either a pellet or a slug gun. It's a shotgun.

A pellet gun fires ONE pellet.

This man was not shot by a pellet gun.
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xxqqqzme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
11. I guess 'pellets' R what compassionate conservatives
Edited on Tue Feb-14-06 12:23 PM by xxqqqzme
use. One Friday @ a corner anti-b*sh/iraq vigil, a drive-by discharged a pellet gun at us. The pellet spray covered a wide area and hit many demonstrators. One tore thru the shirt of one of the men, another ripped thru the foam board sign my friend was holding. I was relieved the asshole didn't aim high cuz there was no doubt in my mind that one of those pellets could have easily taken out an eye.

After reading the above, I guess it wasn't a pellet gun cuz we were hit by more than one pellet.
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LizW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
12. Is each little "dot" a pellet?
If Whittington took 50-80 pellets, he was right in the middle of the pattern. I had thought the pattern would be more spread out, and he might have just taken the edge of it, but it's hard to say.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. yes, each dot 1 pellet.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. YES.
Each shotgun shell is full of them. When the shotgun is fired, the pellets are blasted from the barrel and spread out like that.

You can vary the pattern by using "chokes," etc., but just keep in mind, when you see a shotgun shell, that it's full of those little guys.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. Yes he was
There's a drawing on a the report at Smoking Gun. It was a tight circle on his left upper chest and neck.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
21. After examining the picture, there appear to be about 30-40 pellets
per quadrant. Whittington would have more than 40 pellets in him even if it was an off-center target. Given that he has them lodged in his heart, it would seem that the area would be from his upper chest to his face. I bet the man is blind in at least one eye.
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. The press conference doctor just said........
that he had "less than 150-200" pellets in him. :wtf: That's a full load! Cheney must have shot him at point blank range! Yeah, just a "minor" hunting "accident". :eyes: This guy is lucky to be alive, if he really IS ALIVE!
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pinniped Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:35 PM
Original message
That's more than I heard yesterday.
Edited on Tue Feb-14-06 03:35 PM by pinniped
The birdshot multiplied.

He almost got his entire head shot 'peppered' off.
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txindy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #21
50. The doctors orig. said he has about 100 pellets left in him.
Considering how cold it was here on Saturday (bitter winds gusting out of the north all day), I know an elderly man was bundled up very well. If he has that many pellets in him, they went through an awful lot of clothing to lodge in his chest. Many, if not most, are probably in his neck and head.
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #21
55. I read on another site Whittington had about 200 shots in him
I'll try to find the link.
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demo dutch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
23. I bet that they were drinking!!!!
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
26. That looks like a modified or full choke to me.
I believe Cheney's 28-gauge is an improved barrel without choke. The pattern you've shown, therefore, would be closer to the 20-yard pattern, I believe. Clearly, a #8 shell with about 400 shot would result in 50-80 hits on an individual's head, neck, and shoulders if the person were covered by the area between the 20" circle and 30" circle.

Now I understand why Cheney doesn't use bird dogs. They're probably all dead. :shrug:


If Whittington was close enough for pellets to reach the heart muscle (as is now being reported) then he was a helluva lot closer than 30 yards! The report of 30 yards is becoming more and more clearly a LIE. Also clearly, the failure to observe him in a field of fire at a range of 20 yards is even more appalling! This is, I believe, why they've deliberately exaggerated the distance between Cheney and Whittington - and is an obvious indication of their awareness of Cheney's reckless culpability in the shooting.

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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Very good points...
I don't know if that pattern was modified or choked (the original site did not indicate that). But either way, for pellets to get into his heart... that DOES mean closer than 30 yards.
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No DUplicitous DUpe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. "...he was a helluva lot closer than 30 yards!" I don't know how
anyone could draw any other conclusion at this point. But seeing the chest xray film would really
help in clearing up what happened. I'd like to see Mr. Whittington's parka, too.

Is there a lab tech with a digital camera out there ?....
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #26
37. Ah! So it IS a lie!
He was NOT 30 feet away. How close was he?
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
40. Absolutely.
The #7 shot penetrated his:
1) orange hunting vest

2) at least 2 layers of clothing

3) the epidermis (surface skin)

4) a layer of tough chest muscle

5) the very tough ribcage

This is NOT a peppering at 30 yards.
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Redneck Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. I suspect the pellet traveled through a vein to the heart
I doubt very much that a pellet penetrated to the heart. Not enough info in the reports to tell at this point.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. I though so too. Early reports indicated this....
....but the noon report on CNN stated that the pellet (and implied there were more than one) was "lodged in the heart muscle". They made NO mention of pellets traveling through the veins to the heart.
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Redneck Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Ahhhh, interesting. I hadn't heard that.
That certainly puts a different spin on things. If that's the case I'm amazed that the guy's not dead.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #26
46. "Now I understand why Cheney doesn't use bird dogs...
...They're probably all dead."

What a perfectly awful thing to say, and much worse, I laughed.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. As a dog-lover (especially retrievers), I had to imagine them running for
... cover when they caught Dickless Fudd's scent. :evilgrin:
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Ino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
29. photo of gunshot victim
Lots of good info here, including a photo of someone "peppered" with gunshot.
http://www.firearmsid.com/A_distshotpatt.htm
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. I don't think that's a person... look at the "shine" on the skin...
it may be a test dummy of some form.
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. thanks for that education about buck and birdshots and all
the various gauges..the damage done by these shells are mind blowing..

I appreciated that look and now I can imagine what wittington might have felt!!

and WELCOME TO DU... :hi: :hi: :thumbsup:
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RobertSeattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
32. Guns don't kill people...
...hundreds of pellets flying at several hundred mph do.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #32
67. Unless you hit someone with the butt of the gun. really hard. maybe
guns don't kill people. egotistical vice presidents with guns kill people.
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hexola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
33. Whos saying it was a "pellet gun"? Nobody is THAT stupid!
Clearly they werent using toys to hunt birds...

Exactly what "media" are you tuned in to...????
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. As has been observed here:
ABC: used the term "pellet gun" and avoided the term shotgun
FOX/CNN: used the term "BB's" and avoided the terms bird-shot and shot-gun pellets
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #39
62. bb's are a shot size, they measure .177
he was hit with .100 or .095
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #33
58. Here's a specific post here at DU about this topic
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Ino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
38. I don't think it's a dummy
I don't think that's a person... look at the "shine" on the skin... it may be a test dummy of some form.

I guess they could have painted in the blood, but the photo is titled "shotvic" -- short for "shotgun victim"? It sounds odd to call a dummy a victim.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Can't tell for sure, but it appears to be a closer range shot as well
Gruesome either way. I wonder how bad the damage really is to Whittington?
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Che_Nuevara Donating Member (517 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
49. All of these analyses are assuming
that the victim took the center of the blast. In all likelihood, he didn't -- it's probably the spread was significantly wider (and thus from a farther point of origin) and the side of the spread caught him.

Not that it sucks less, of course.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. Where are these assumptions you are talking about...???
Whittington was obviously not hit with a direct blast because he only received 100 out of about 300 pellets. And if you look at the distribution, that would mean he got hit with about 1/3rd, most likely the upper-left 1/3 of the blast pattern.

Many posters (including myself) have said above that it was an off-center shot.
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Che_Nuevara Donating Member (517 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. for example, posts 5 and 12
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. #5 makes no such claim and #12 is asking a question.
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
59. Just like everything else with this admin--
they totally underplayed this entire incident. That poor man may be dying, and they are so worried about covering Cheney's ass...

:puke:
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