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DenaliDemocrat Donating Member (536 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:52 AM
Original message
For the record "Peppering"
Edited on Tue Feb-14-06 01:00 AM by DenaliDemocrat
Wow! Two posts in one day for me, but the RW spin is beginning and for the non-hunters out there I thought I would clarify this.

Being "peppered" with bird shot is not uncommon when hunting, but it ain't what Dick did.

Hunteres call being "peppered" what happens when a guy a hundred yards away from you shoots at a bird flying up high and the shot after reaching its apogee, falls back to earth, under the power of gravity. The shot has no power behind it, and while it stings a little, it is harmless. It is like a baseball coming back to hit you in the head in the outfield, a far cry from a pitcher getting smacked by a line drive.

Cheney fucking shot the guy at 30 paces, well within the killing range of a shotgun. This aint gettin "peppered" folks, it's called getting "BLOWN AWAY!"
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
1. Kicked for clarity and truth..
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InsultComicDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
2. kick
:kick:
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Steve A Play Donating Member (638 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
3. 'Peppering' is how hunters get seasoned
If you shoot them with rock salt and then 'pepper' them with bird shot they're well seasoned! :)
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #3
35. That's what Jon Stewart said last night. The guy was "seasoned
within an inch of his life." And he added - "'Peppering' is what you do with a caesar salad!"
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central scrutinizer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #35
50. see the video here
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
4. Great post. There are not a lot of hunters here. But you are wrong
on "90 paces"- it was 30 (yards or paces, they are all the same).

I have been hit from behind with 20 gauge with #7 1/2 at 35 yards.

Luckily I was wearing a denim jacket. But the impact planted me.
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DenaliDemocrat Donating Member (536 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Ooops
30 paces = 90 feet or 30 yards. Typo,...I will edit.
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f-bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. I heard it was thirty feet NOT thirty yards!
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. I saw 30 feet in an article today
Can't remember which one.
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f-bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Most of the reports I heard and read said thirty feet! Please clarify.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Was it 30 yards?
Or is that another line they're feeding us? You say you were planted, which is bad enough. But this guy is in intensive care. Pretty big difference. I'm really curious how large the pattern should have been at 30 yards.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-15-06 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #8
58. Depends on the shotgun.
With a full choke, at 30 yards almost all the pellets will be in a 30 inch circle. With a full cylinder, about 2/3 will be.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #4
20. times said 30 ft, another paper 30 yrds. look at it this way. 100 pellets
isnt that pattern pretty tight for it to be too great a distance

i heard first it was over 50 pellets that hit the man. then yesterday i heard 100. with that many pellets hitting him, my huband, the hunter, thinks it was closer that 30 yards. not liking guns i dont know anything
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #20
31. I know it was not 30 feet because Whittington is not dead.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. please explain the pattern explanation
i am told the distance can be determined by the number of pellets that meet the body. 50. and 100. we have two stories. the most current is a 100. os i am going to say that is a better truth than 50. immediately after reported was like 20, sittin up and joking.

the man is said to have been concerned if he was going to hospital, or morgue

more information please
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. OK, this is basic and kind of long
The shotgun was 28 gauge, which is the smallest commonly used, except for the very small .410 bore. The largest is 12 gauge, although some 10 gauge can be found. The smaller the number, the larger the inside diameter of the barrel.

Shotgut barrels have different chokes. This is a gradual reduction of the gauge, so that the end of the barrel is smaller than the other end, where the shotgun shell is loaded. A full choke creates a tighter pattern of shot at longer yardages, while a barrel with little or no choke allows the shot to spread out more at shorter distances. It is certain that Vice President Elmer Fudd was using a barrel with little or no choke, probably the ones called modified or improved cylinder. You want your pattern to spread out, so that you have a better chance of hitting moving targets like quail.

Shotgun shells are have different size projectiles, which are called shot or slugs. A slug is a solid projectile. #00 Buck, one of the largest diameter shot, is designed to hunt big game like deer. It is also used by law enforcement, and by some soldiers in Vietnam. The shot is so large that you can only get about 9 of them into a 12 gauge shell. Effective range is from 40 to 60 yards, but the projectiles are still deadly beyond these distances.

Darth Cheney was using a very small size shot, which is called bird shot. It would probably have been #7 or #8 steel shot. The more traditional lead shot has been outlawed in Texas, on account of environmental concerns. As the name implies, bird shot is used when you want to launch a pattern of lots of projectiles that will cover a large area - a big advantage when you're trying to hit something that's flying through the air. It will not penetrate the target much, especially as the range to the target increases, but that's OK when you're shooting something small like quail.

Have a look at the video provided in reply #16 of this thread, to watch a man firing a gun like the one in question, using the same load.

http://www.caller.com/#

There you will see the pattern that results from a 30 yard shot. This method can be reliably used to determine just how far away Whittington was when Cheney shot him. He was about 30 yards away.

A shotgun at close range is one of the deadliest weapons you can use against another person. This is expecially true for large gauges and heavy shot, but also applies to smaller gauges and loads. This is because the barrel diameter is large, compared to a rifle; the shot pattern stays together at short distances; and the projectiles are still traveling at a higher speed (see post #25 in this string). This makes a shotgun a favored weapon for home protection.

At very close range (say, 5 feet) a shotgun can blow a hole in someone that you can read a newspaper through. At 30 feet, even with the light gauge and load Elmer was using, it's a safe bet that the shot to the head and chest would have killed Whittington.

Now you're a shotgun expert.

Happy Valentine's Day
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #34
49. Outstanding
As a relative newcomer to the sport, I'm thankful we have folks like you to share their expertise.

I use #8 for skeet and have shot through boxes, watermelons, and into 2x4s. 30 yards away from the front end of my improved cylinder barrel makes a nasty hole in the first two, and will penetrate about half-an-inch into the 2x4. A 28- won't have near the impact of a 12-gauge, but it will penetrate soft tissues easily. The poor old guy is hurting bad.
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 06:32 PM
Original message
Right, it wasn't as insignificant as the pukes want us to believe
I've been thinking about my previous post in this thread. In my statement about doing a test to determine how far away Elmer Cheney was from his target, I did not take into account human error. This factor can be eliminated by taking prudent precautions in the test, but can not be ignored when evaluating the actual event in question. That is to say, Cheney might not have made a perfect shot, and might have caught Whittington with the edge of his pattern.

This could have resulted in fewer hits than would be indicated from a perfect test firing at the same distance that was between the two when the shot was fired. Therefore, once you know the number of shot that struck Whittington you could produce the same same result in a test firing of a silouette
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. Dupe - self delete
Edited on Tue Feb-14-06 06:42 PM by Lasher
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
6. Yeah, I was wondering about that expression.
When a guy's in intensive care, using an expression meant for seasoning soup is clearly intended to deceive about the shooting.
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
9. Yea, it's called "getting shot in the fucking face"

"I'm takin' that fucking car! That fucker's mine! Are we square?"
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. Yeah, REALLY...
it was a direct shot in the guy's damn face! x(
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
10. Now it's a "hunting mishap"
According the the CNN whores.

Gee, what next, Cheney's "oopsie"?

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Ecumenist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
13. I also read that it was 30 feet...
I really believe that this was no accident.. I don't care what people say...
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:27 AM
Response to Original message
14. He was hit by about FIFTY pellets - I read that is about half a load
So with the spreading of the pellets after they leave the muzzle, you can get a sense that this man who got them on his cheek, neck and chest was NOT ALL THAT FAR AWAY. They had to be removed sugically and the man was in intensive care and is still hospitalized. It's amazing he wasn't blinded or worse.

And the WH and yesterday's corporate media spin keeps harping on how it's nothing serious, happens all the time, and it was the victim's fault:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
thread title (2-13-06 GD): A few things I've noticed about the shooting accident
Comment/excerpt: First was the expected minimization of the incident and the downplaying of the wounds of a man who's still in intensive care. Most of these comments are from the ranch owner Katharine Armstrong, daughter of a former Halliburton director and professional Republican Pioneer bootlicker. The true scope of Wittinton's injury is indicated in this Dallas Morning News article:
A friend who has talked to family members said that Mr. Whittington was hit by about 50 birdshot pellets. He underwent surgery Sunday morning to remove some of the pellets, and doctors have told his family that the shot apparently did not damage any major organs.


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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #14
43. Actually, 50 is much less than half the shot load.
If he was using #7 steel shot (a likely guess, given the situation)
the number of shot in a single 28 gauge 3/4oz round would be around 300.

And it is entirely likely that he was actually 90 yards away,
given the pattern thrown by that type of shotgun.

Here's a target perforated by a
28 gauge load from 90 yards away:
(large circle is 30 inches)


The WH spin, "nothing serious, happens all the time"
is bullshit.
This was VERY serious.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. Thanks! That's very helpful. n/t
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-15-06 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #47
57. OOPS! Not as helpful as it should have beeen: TYPOS!!
After spending some time surfin 28-gauge info yesterday,
I have concluded that the site I found that target pic
had a typo in the description.

That target was likely shot at 90 FEET, not 90 yards.

Also, it is the INNER circle which measures 36 inches, not the outer.
That mistake was all mine.
Although it has been a few years since I did much shooting,
I DID used to be vaguely familiar with the process for patterning shotguns.
I should have caught these errors before I posted.

I apologize for any difficulties my misinformation may have caused.
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threadkillaz Donating Member (453 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:45 AM
Response to Original message
16. .28 gauge simulation video
Click:

"VIDEO: Caller-Times photographer and avid shooter George Gongora simulates Saturday's accident with a 0.28-gauge shotgun."

Here:
http://www.caller.com/#
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. Very good explanation of what damage was done.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:52 AM
Response to Original message
17. any actual shooter who does not admit that dick was negligent
is a lying asshole

you don't shoot at another person 30 yeards away unless you are incompetent

oh, wait. he IS incompetent. never mind.
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VOX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 04:17 AM
Response to Original message
18. And if there are leaves on the ground, you can hear the shot falling...
around you on the ground, a bit like a mild mini-hail storm. You don't want to look up, but the falling shot is spent, and will not hurt you.

Firing shot with force enough to break the skin (and to remain lodged there), as Cheney did, is actually shooting someone.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:41 AM
Response to Original message
19. I think it would be unbearable living with a lot of pellets inside one's
skin. Downright hideous.

It's hard to grasp why they could not remove each one surgically, easily, unless they went far deeper than they have implied.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. ah-hah
I've been peppered from 30 yards and it wasn't much at all they all rained down, couldn't have broken the skin if they had wanted to. even if you are as thin skinned as crashcart
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #19
36. Please. They're not pellets, they're "souvenirs" or "mementos".
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BelgianMadCow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #36
52. Yeah. I hear this kind of hunting mishaps are not that uncommon.
Most of the times, the pepperer has to buy the pepperee a drink afterwards.

:sarcasm:
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Neil Lisst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 06:54 AM
Response to Original message
22. Absolutely! It's like getting hit will weakly throw tiny rocks.
Peppered doesn't send anyone to the hospital.

Peppered isn't a blast to the face and torso that does damage.

This is like calling a stabbing a paper cut.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 06:58 AM
Response to Original message
24. Thank you! I have been screaming that all morning at the t.v.
:thumbsup:
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Tin Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 07:30 AM
Response to Original message
25. Yes, speaking as a hunter - "peppering" is NOT what happened
Edited on Tue Feb-14-06 08:20 AM by Tin Man
..."peppering" never put a man into the hospital - more lies from the WH spin machine.

Tiny bird shot pellets, upon exit from the barrel of the gun, decellerate rapidly due to their poor aerodynamic shape (a sphere is inherently "draggy" and slow - like a blimp). Here's a graph showing how quickly energy dissipates from shotgun pellets. As you can see, #7.5 birdshot will shed nearly all its balistic energy by the time it reaches 100yds downrange. At this point (and beyond) the shot is harmless - peppering is typically encountered when the shooter takes aim with a "sky" backstop (safe when hunting with birdshot) and the tiny pellets quite harmlessly "rain" back down to earth 2-300 yds downrange.



Whittington WAS NOT peppered, he was SHOT !!!!

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C_U_L8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
26. Thanks for setting us straight
I thought they were talking about that bottle of scotch they peppered down
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Nordmadr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
27. I don't own this gauge of shotgun, but I have a hard time believing that
Edited on Tue Feb-14-06 08:30 AM by olafvikingr
at 30 yards there would have still been that tight of a pattern. It is partially dependent on the choke used. The choke is a piece attached to the barrel of the shotgun that opens up or condenses the firing pattern when firing shot instead of slugs.

Ok, I just watched the video showing the pattern from 30 yards. It seems that the distance for that pattern seems reasonable.

Olafr
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
28. The other word game being used: 'bbs'.
Birdshot is now being referred to as BBs. What bullshit. The good news is that the bullshit in this case is transparent. The more they spin the worse it looks, the worse it looks the more they feel compelled to spin ....

It is a death spiral at the moment.

Anyone who thinks we ought to move on to more important topics and let them pull their pants back up is missing the point.
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
29. Your explaination makes sense..
getting hit point blank is severe, even the victim thought he was going to the morgue.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Bird shot...............
depending on which size 7 1/2-9 shot, Cheney was using he sent out between 350-585 steel pellets into the victims body......tell me that doesn't hurt. They could spend the rest of the victims life trying to get the shot out of his face.

I used to hunt pheasant until myself & dog were peppered pretty good that was the least time I went hunting.
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kayice Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #30
41. That Armstrong woman said she had been 'peppered' herself,
does that mean she ended up in ICU?
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
32. K & R!!
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
37. Good point
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npincus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
38. peppered? I think he was a-SALTED! *******HA HA HA
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
39. Yeah, those spin doctors have a way with words.
I'm thinking of "peppering" them with indignant emails protesting how they are covering this incident.
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gatorboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
40. He was thirty feet away?
Here's a quote:
"The vice president didn't see him," she continued. "The covey flushed and the vice president picked out a bird and was following it and shot. And by God, Harry was in the line of fire and got peppered pretty good."

I don't buy that. If what they are reporting is true, Cheney was following a quail up when he shot. To shoot a man at 30 feet, Cheney would have to be shooting pretty low to hit the an at that distance. Unless Whittngton was cloer than they'd like to adit.
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electropop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. I don't think those tethered quail can fly all that high.
:evilgrin:
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KyuzoGator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
44. If it had been buckshot instead of birdshot, the guy would be dead.
And "peppering" is for Caesar salads.
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DenaliDemocrat Donating Member (536 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Buckshot hell
#6's or #4's at that range would have killed him deader than hell. I bet even a high brass #7 would have done it. I am sure he got hit with #8 1/2's or #9 -- the ONLY reason this guy is alive today.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
45. The FAUX guy at the press conference was a RIOT. .
Edited on Tue Feb-14-06 12:50 PM by pat_k
. . .He had obviously gotten marching orders to say Cheney "sprayed," rather than "shot" Mr. Whittington, but he got himself in a jam when he asked if/when Bush was told that Cheney was the. . . ah . . stutter, stutter .(sprayer?? pepperer?). ah. . shoo. . .(grateful look as McClellan cuts him off and saves him from saying the dreaded word "shooter").

Well, their attempt to get people to say "sprayed" (or "peppered") instead of shot clearly hasn't worked.

Apparently Mr. Whittington was so "peppered" that bird shot lodged in his heart and elsewhere, they are leaving shot where it is, rather than dig it out (sounds like a decision you'd make only if the bird shot was deeply embedded).

Their "blame the victim" position ain't gonna fly either (earlier post

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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
48. ***COMPILATION of threads on the Cheney shooting incident - LINK:
I will continue to update - I'd love it if you would too:

In General Discussion:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
thread title (2-14-06 GD): Thread COMPILATION on Cheney shooting/Fuddgate - including VIDEOS:

In the Research Forum:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
thread title (2-14-06 RESEARCH FORUM): Compilation of threads on 2/06 Cheney shooting incident, including videos
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
51. Dead Eye Dick SHOT A 78 YEAR OLD MAN IN THE FACE!!!
What part of guilty as sin doesn't he get?
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
53. Cheny under the "influence" of heroin?
Now that I've got your attention, is it true that on this hunting trip Cheney was with Pamela Pitzer Willeford, the U.S. ambassador to Switzerland and Liechtenstein? Is it also true that the CIA, under Porter Goss, has re-established drug money laundering conduits involving Geneva banks? The operations, allegedly overseen by a close relative of Goss, involve laundering cash from CIA heroin smuggling from U.S.-occupied Afghanistan.

For more on the "BUSH-CHENEY drug empire", check this out:

http://switzerland.indymedia.org/de/2002/05/211.shtml


From 1994 to 1999, during US military intervention in the Balkans where, according to "The Christian Science Monitor" and "Janes Intelligence Review," the Kosovo Liberation Army controls 70 per cent of the heroin entering Western Europe, Cheneys Brown and Root made billions of dollars supplying U.S. troops from vast facilities in the region. Brown and Root support operations continue in Bosnia, Kosovo and Macedonia to this day...

<snip>

the CIA had then used Brown and Root, which operated in both countries and maintained port facilities in the Persian Gulf and near Shat al-Arab to rearm the Kurds. The whole operation had been financed with heroin. Paul was matter-of-fact about it.


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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
55. Will the Medical Examiner list cause of death as "peppered"?
If Whittington dies, will that put to rest (no pun intended) this damage control spin of calling it peppering?

Whittington was shot. Shot. Shot. Shot. Anyone who wants to call it peppering, let's re-enact the scenario and they can play the role of Whittington.

I'd also like to see the medical records from Armstrong's "peppering."
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 10:09 PM
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56. kick
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